FCA Is Hungry For Diesels

@SweDane, Correct those older diesels are pretty primitive devices compared to the VMotori

I agree, even though I brought those engines up above. That also means if someone liked their 5.9L I6, that doesn't mean this VM engine is right for them. I disagree with the 7.3L power stroke being a boat anchor though.

Not sure how being technologically advanced makes it better. Those old diesels could throw a lot of trash onto the burners and take it like candy, now expect a couple grand in repairs if a little something gets in there. The 6.5s sibling was down rated in box trucks to get ~30mpg... In a box truck. And there definately wasn't any DPF urea nightmare equipment, makes almost every modern diesel worthless compared to the gas equivalents in the 3/4-1 ton category. Cost more, worth less. Check out how well an 06 duramax 6.6 holds value, insanely well as its the last year before diesels became reliability nightmares. Unless your speaking solely performance, which isn't what a diesels for, then your way off. Besides across the pond you guys act like VWs are some reliability dream come true, how can we trust that funny talk. ;)

That's not to say this is a bad engine, I've heard no problems of it, but to not be skeptical is crazy. Plus anything with the "Eco" prefix cannot be above suspicion.

@Hummer Not from across the pond and we do get the Ford and Chevrolet diesels

The original Power Stroke was a hi tech diesel, it was the first mass market, widely popular electronically controlled diesel. The new motors are not more "hi-tech" they do have additional equipment but that is to meet emissions standards but the basic operation of current diesels use the same or similar principals of operation as the original Power Stroke.

@Hummer > Check out how well an 06 duramax 6.6 holds value, insanely well as its the last year before diesels became reliability nightmares. When my dad was looking for a truck to replace his '88 Suburban with the 6.2L diesel, I specifically told him to get a 2006 Duramax. Second gen Duramax so no chance of the cracked injector bodies contaminating the oil problem, and one year before the new emissions equipment was added. That`s what he got, and he's been very happy with it.

@RobertRyan ....Uhhh, correct me if I am wrong, but IIRC the GM Duramax is an Isuzu designed joint venture product; so technically part of it's genealogy comes from across the "western pond". Ford has a rich history of manufacturing smaller diesel engines at its UK subsidiary in Dagenham. For its first foray in the light truck diesels it farmed out the work to International (nee Navistar) with mixed results, until recently when it brought the project back in house..results too new to judge,

@dartman Yes the Duramax is a JV with Isuzu. Ford has made diesels around the world that span a wide range of displacements. The first Ford pickups with diesels used the existing IH 6.9 that was developed for IH's own use years before they started showing up in Fords. In fact it was co-developed with their new for the 70's MV series gas engines designed to be interchanged with each other. They share common mounting and accessory drive systems they even shared the same water pump, rear main seal and rear main seal housing. IH had intended to put the gas version in their Pickups for the 1974 model year and spent a fair amount of money redesigning the chassis to accept the new engine. Various delays meant that it wasn't ready for production at the beginning of the model year and the energy crisis sealed it and their pickups fate. Had it went into production earlier there is a good chance that the 6.9 would have went in their own trucks for late 1974 or 1975. Ford did have a hand in the development of the Power Stroke providing the electronics portion of the system and funding. The 6.0 was rushed into production without proper durability testing to earn as many emissions credits as they could. That engine of course led the to divorce and International keeping all of those credits which allowed them to avoid installing DEF systems on their trucks for a number of years.

@dartman, Wrong pond, Asian Diesels are in a different league to the European ones. They are not not as torque rich as the European units, but they are awfully reliable.Yes Ford's Dagenham facility in England produced all their small diesels for Ford, including the 3.2 unit for the Transit

@bball40dtw, Those diesels you speak of wouldn't be competitive here in Australia and probably the EU or Asia. Boat anchors they are.

@dartman Which Duramax Dartman? VM designed the 2.8 Duramax in Italy.

@Scoutdude, The PowerStroke was based on the Lion diesel from the UK. It isn't a high tech diesel. It was always designed as a light commercial diesel.

@Scoutdude, When I say "based", I'm saying the actual design of the diesel is a Lion, but enlarged.

@Big Al from Oz They are all 20+ years old. The Cummins I6 is 30 years old. I wouldn't expect them to compare, performance wise, to current diesels. They aren't competitive in the US. The 7.3L in all of its goodness is outclassed by the current Ford Scorpion diesel. If someone wants to call the 6.7L Scorpion a boat anchor, I can't help them. They need to stay away from the internet for awhile.

@Big Al from Oz He is referring to the original Powerstroke engine. That engine predates the Lion series of engines.

@Big Al from Oz No the original engine to carry the Power Stroke name was based on the International 6.9 introduced in the mid 70's. Its original application was for MD trucks where it provided good service for many years before Ford started putting it in pickups. The 6.9 got enlarged to 7.3 and then Ford and International worked together to transform it into the PowerStroke which also did duty in both companies MD trucks. The current version of the Power Stroke V8 sold in the US has nothing architecturally in common with the "Lion" engine. Lion engine; DOHC and traditional head layout with intake ports inside the "V". The 6.7 uses cam in block, reversed head layout with the exhaust ports inside the "V". Just to name the most significant differences. Sure they use similar injection set ups that are based on the original Power Stroke.

@Scoutdude If I recall correctly, the 7.3 Power Stroke is exactly the same as the T444E fitted to International 4000 series trucks and buses. I'm sure they don't make it any more, though.

Why would you want all diesels to be successful if you drive a diesel? The more diesels that are sold the more you are likely to pay for fuel compared to gasoline. If I were you I'd want everyone else to stop buying diesels so that your fuel cost could potentially go down instead of up.

@Scoutdude Medium and heavy duty trucks account for well over 90% of US diesel consumption, so even if you doubled the number of diesel passenger vehicles it would barely make a dent in fuel demand. OTOH, more successful diesel passenger models means more competition and more choices for the consumer - and larger scale eventually means cheaper replacement parts.

@mulled whine the 8% take rate was taken from the article provided by the link in the article. It was originally stated by Mike Manley, CEO of Jeep. Surely he would know. Do you think they would inflate that take rate? For what purpose?

@Scoutdude I want diesels to be successful, so there are more diesel models to chose from. I

@bobman I wonder where hybrid cars got its 151 number from? They are saying only 755 diesel grand Cherokees have sold all year... A sales rate that would hardly be worth offering that model.

@mulled whine Remember, at $40-50K a pop there's a pretty good margin on these things, they don't need to sell a ton of them to make money on the model.

@hybridkiller Yeah bot those Locomotives, MD and HD trucks don't normally fuel up at your local C-Store so yes increasing use of diesels in consumer vehicles will drive the price of diesel up for the average consumer. As it is they already need to do more than straight distillation to produce the amount of diesel to meet demand. That is why diesel is no longer cheaper to make than gas and why it is priced higher at the pump in most areas of the US most of the year.

@Scoutdude Several reasons for diesel being more expensive - it's taxed higher, home heating oil demand (it's basically high-sulfur diesel) affects the fuel price, and so on. Wholesale energy prices are determined on the commodities markets - has nothing to do with where it's sold. Convenience store gas stations make their money on coffee and donuts - their margin on fuel is pennies per gallon. They sell fuel in the hopes you'll come inside and buy other stuff. I'm going to repeat myself in case it wasn't clear to you the first time - commercial trucking uses >90% of diesel fuel sold in the US - any increase in passenger car demand would be a rounding error.

@hybridkiller, In Europe the price of diesel fuel has dropped as more refineries came online to produce as a by product of demand

@RobertRyan Thank you, please explain that to Scoutdude.

@Scoutdude Yes home heating oil plays a huge part in the price of diesel which is one of the reasons why the price spread is higher in the winter than it is in the summer. The other reason is that truck and rail shipments increase greatly as the Christmas shopping season draws near. The 6 cent higher federal tax also plays a small part in that, at the local level there are states that tax diesel at a greater rate per gallon, those that tax it the same and some that tax gasoline at a higher rate. According to the info I found on average at the state level diesel is taxed at a lower rate than gas, but only a half of a cent. Note that is an unweighted average if it was weighted to consumption that spread would likely be higher, as CA taxes gas 3.3 cents per gallon more than diesel and many of the states that tax diesel at a higher rate are relatively low population. Have you ever noticed that despite gas being a commodity the price at the pump can vary significantly within a few miles. Why is that? The answer is that it is because the individual retailer sets his own price based on what that retailer thinks he can get. If they are smart it is the right balance between the cost per gallon and the number of gallons they will sell to end up with maximum profit. So if a station, particularly one that doesn't have a lot of competition for diesel near it notices an increase in their sales, particularly if it bumps into their quota which is likely in some areas in the winter then they will raise their price at their pump. When the next closest competitor notices that they too are experiencing more demand then they too will raise their price. So yes if consumer use of diesel goes up the price will rise to the consumer. May not be a huge increase but an increase none the less.

@RobertRyan "Have you ever noticed that despite gas being a commodity the price at the pump can vary significantly within a few miles." No, I haven't noticed that, and I travel quite a bit and purchase diesel. Even in the relatively small towns I go through there's always plenty of competition and choices available. The noticeable price swings are from state to state, and that's clearly taxes. Along the interstates the big truck stops are right next to the passenger car outlets, and we're all paying the same price for diesel. That's why I'm trying to get you to see that trucking in the US is the overwhelming factor driving diesel prices. Brother, don't take my word for it, do some research - google it for God's sake.

@RobertRyan But when you distil crude oil you get a certain mix of products from each barrel. It does vary depending on the type of crude and the exact processes involved. So if you want to build a new refinery to produce an extra X gallons of diesel you'll end up with about 2X gallons of gasoline. Guess what that does to the price of gasoline?

@RobertRyan It doesn't work that way anymore, it's not a fixed ratio as you're suggesting. Modern refining techniques can crack the hydrocarbon molecules into smaller sizes to push the production output in the direction of higher demand, gas or diesel. Also you can produce diesel from heavy crude, gasoline has to come from light sweet crude. Guess what there's more of?

@hybridkiller, they you probably should get out more. I just looked up the prices in my area and within about a mile of each other there are 2 Arcos and one of them is getting 9 cents more per gallon than the other one. The stations closest to my house charge about 25 cents more per gallon than the ones just another 5 miles away. Yes if you go to the combo gas station truck stops on the interstate you'll find that the diesel is the same price at the gas and truck island, baring any tax discounts to commercial truckers with the proper permit as is done in OR. You'll also find that frequently all of the stations located at that interstate exit are at the exact same prices. You'll find that in some areas too. Back when my wife still had family living in Bismark ND I found that there every single station in the city limits had the exact same gas price no matter what the brand was on the sign. What you need to google is the law of supply and demand and then factor in the fact that for every gallon of diesel you are producing you get about 2 gallons of gas. Yes you can shift that ratio but doing so is more expensive that old fashioned distillation which again is one of the reasons that diesel is more expensive than gasoline currently. In the old days they could get enough diesel through straight distillation, but to meet today's demand they have to use more complex and more expensive processes and invest in the equipment to do so (and of course deal with all the regulatory costs and nightmares).

@RobertRyan You're basing your conclusions on the 5 miles around your house, and I need to get out more? Careful bro, you're straying into idiot territory now. See my last post, we're not stuck with that 2:1 ratio anymore. You're clinging to what you think you know to make a point and it's not working. I'm done.

@hybridkiller They need to sell a ton of them to break even as there is significant costs associated with certifying a power train combo for sale. Sure the high margin will shorten that amortization period but until they have recouped the cost of certification and other fixed costs associated with offering an additional power train option they haven't made a single penny.

@hybridkiller, I call BS. Anyway you slice it you are going to get about 40-50% gasoline from a barrel of oil, and 15-20% diesel. Diesel is inherently more dear than gasoline. That is not say it is immune from the laws of supply and demand, and at times may trade for less than gasoline; see Mr Ryan's comment above. From the EIA website: http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=7110 "Crude oils that are light (higher degrees of API gravity, or lower density) and sweet (low sulfur content) are usually priced higher than heavy, sour crude oils. This is partly because gasoline and diesel fuel, which typically sell at a significant premium to residual fuel oil and other "bottom of the barrel" products, can usually be more easily and cheaply produced using light, sweet crude oil. The light sweet grades are desirable because they can be processed with far less sophisticated and energy-intensive processes/refineries."

@Dartman, Hybridkiller is correct to a point, using straight distillation you get a fixed ratio of products which does vary between the different types of crude oil. However there are processes and equipment that allow refineries to manipulate those ratios. The problem is that adds to the cost of producing the product you want more of and reduces the percentage of other products. So change that mix to make more diesel and the average cost of production of a gallon of diesel will increase assuming the cost of crude stays the same. @Hybridkiller, while gasoline and diesel are commodities at the refinery and initial distribution levels between the bulk plant and the station they no longer act as commodities. Virtually every station that carries an oil company brand has to buy their fuel from that company and there is usually only one distributor for a given brand in a geographic location. Now of course when it comes time for you and I to buy some it becomes a commodity again. However we do have a free market in the US and the retailers can sell it for what they think their local market will pay. That is why the only time I'll buy gas from my local stations are when I need gas for the lawn mower. Otherwise if in the course of my daily travels I'm in one of the areas where gas is cheaper or much cheaper than the station closest to my house I'll check my gauge and fill up then rather than wait until the low fuel light warning has came on.

@RobertRyan Heating oil does play a part in the price of diesel. I've read paranoid types stating that the USA Government prefers to keep the general public out of diesels since the US military consumes massive amounts of diesel and jet fuel. All I have to do is work in a Nazi angle and I've covered Godwin's law ;)

@Scoutdude I now call BS to you. Yes the ratio can be manipulated ...15-20% gasoline vs 40-50% gasoline; a pretty narrow spread. Independent sellers of fuel are only tied to a major oil company by virtue of advertising and marketing..i.e. credit cards and promotions. The actual gasoline may come from any number of refineries. Chevron gas may come from a Valero refinery as does the Shell product. The only difference is the additives that are added post refining; i.e "techron" etc. The basic gasoline is the same based on vapor pressure, octane rating and percentage of ethanol etc. The various additives do make a difference in engine performance primarily related to engine cleanliness and corrosion and are rated as tier 1, 2, 3 etc by the major oil companies and the EPA. Fuel in the US and diesel in particular has had higher levels of sulfur until recently in both diesel and gasoline compared to Europe. Talk to any European car manufacturer engineer and they will tell you that the past high levels of sulfur (sour crude) in US fuel have caused more problems with the modern direct injection engines than any one problem. Like "leaded" gasoline, sulfur provided a cheap method of lubrication to vital engine parts such as injectors and valves that allowed the use use of cheaper materials in manufacturing. The elimination of leaded gasoline due to its incompatibility with catalytic converters mandated by the Clean Air Act (EPA) and the subsequent improvement and hardening of materials in valve train components eliminated a common maintenance practice known as the "valve job"...I performed a few in my day. When was the last time you heard of any modern engine requiring a "valve job"; i.e the grinding of the valve stem and seat itself? (not a simple adjustment) Interesting enough all of the "lead" in all gasoline was provided by the Ethyl Corporation which was a joint venture between General Motors and Standard Oil of New Jersey (aka Exxon)...Premium high octane gasoline used to be known by the brand name of "Ethyl"...imagine that...

Yup I was wondering if the diesel GC was actually making them money. It sounds like they aren't projecting that they will clear a profit on it if they are saying that they need to see the Grand Cherokee double its take rate before they are willing to put a diesel in the Cherokee. Sounds like unless things change dramatically the diesel Grand Cherokee will only last for as long as they can keep using the current version.

@Scoutdude The Jeep Wrangler is the next logical place for the VM 3.0 diesel.

@Lou_BC Why would the Wrangler buyer want a diesel any more that the GC buyer? At least with a GC, you can tow. Somewhat. More than jet skis.