By on January 27, 2011

Adam writes:

I’ve been mulling over a car-buying decision, and see you post similar things to the main page from time to time. Here’s my dilemma if you need some more copy.

I have a 1995 Jeep Cherokee Sport 5-spd as my skiing, biking and camping car. My mom got it new, and I bought it from her in 2000. It now has almost 200k miles, but it has led an easy life- it still has the original clutch. Oil has been changed every 3500 miles or so, and it’s been generally reliable, but it has the brake-pulsation problem I can’t track down, several rapidly worsening oil and coolant leaks (main seals, oil pan, valve cover), all the rubber parts on the car are rapidly deteriorating, and it needs tires, some front end work, etc. Figure about $1500 in repair. However, then I’ll still have a 16 year old 200k car I’m relying on to get me 150 miles home from the mountain on a 15 degree snowstorm. I’m afraid electronic parts and sensors may soon leave me stranded. It’s worth high $2000 range- it runs fine; the body and paint are very good.

My wife has a 1998 Accord 5-spd – her daily driver for the past 11 years, which we also bought from my parents. It has 186k and drives almost as good as new. I give it synthetic oil every 6500 miles- my wife has a highway commute. It gets 29 mpg around town, low 30’s on the freeway, even going 85 mph. The interior seems to be nicer quality than a lot of newer cars. It’s also in good shape and worth high 3k range.

I have another car as my DD, but we’re considering selling both the Jeep & Honda and getting a RAV4 V6 4wd to replace them both. We also considered a 6-spd Outback, but there is a steering shimmy issues Subaru has been unable to solve- lots of lemons. The 4-banger is also totally gutless at my altitude, and the H-6 is a high dollar upgrade. The benefits of the RAV4 are…

Power, modern safety features (ESC, ABS, side airbags), new-car reliability, and an awesome cargo area- much bigger than the Jeep’s. It’s a lot more comfortable and efficient for a ski-car, too. My wife also gets to drive a newer car.

On the negative, the Honda has tons of life left, gets better mpg as a DD and road trip car, and for the price of the sales tax and the first couple of payments, I can fix the Jeep up pretty nice. It’ll still be an old Jeep though, liable to have some little sensor or something leave me stranded on a cold dark night. It’s also nice to have an extra car. Also, the crash-test scores for the Toyota are only about 30% better than the old cars (except side impact- much better there), and the Subaru has about twice as good of scores as the RAV4. The RAV4 MIGHT also be getting a redesign next year.

Oh yeah- we’re looking at a base model with V6, 4wd, and a few other options like alloys. Invoice is $26,200, and I have ‘em down to $24,900 . MSRP is about $28k.

So…what to do: sell the Jeep and Honda for the RAV4, or keep driving them?

Steve Answers:

When does it make sense to get rid of your ride? Well, I always ask folks to consider three questions.

– Will the repairs on your Jeep (car) cost more than buying a similar vehicle that does not need repair work?

– Does it have terminal rust or other structural issues?

– Did someone die in it? Or if it’s an inherited vehicle, would keeping it remind you of their passing?

You should get a second opinion on numbers one and two. The Jeep has hit a notable milestone being 15 years old and 200k. But the difference between the mountains in say Michigan and the ones I encounter in Georgia are night and day. A thorough inspection from an independent shop would be worth the money. In fact, I would opt for a second inspection if you are concerned about the longevity of this vehicle and have the will to put in the best parts needed to replace it.

That last comment is the one you truly have to consider. Are you willing to buy parts that are just as good, or better, than the ones that came with the Jeep when it left the factory? I was on the exact same precipice about five years ago when my 1994 Camry Coupe had 239k on it. I sold it. But only because I was no longer driving it on a daily basis. If you need two vehicles, I would weigh this in. Oh, and keep the Honda.

Sajeev Answers:

You have a third vehicle (which you are too shy to describe, why?) for a DD, so I really don’t see the problem. Use that exclusively while the Jeep is down for a number of component replacements/reconditioning.  Putting a fresh set of springs, shocks, bushings in the suspension, gaskets on a low mile junkyard motor is cheap when you think big picture.  And it might be the best SUV on the planet, especially on our continent.

But let’s assume that answering Steve’s questions creates this conclusion: the Jeep is too old for you.  And that’s fine, it’s gotta go and the RAV4 is a good choice for your needs. But there’s probably less reason to buy new over used, this bodystyle is a little long in the tooth. Judging by your automotive knowledge, buy a 2-4 year old example with reasonable miles, good service records, and treat it with the same level of (mechanical) respect as your current Jeep. Even with Toyota’s shocking level of incentives and low financing, you’re probably gonna save thousands in the used car market, CPO sales aside…and I am sure you can find a better place for that cash.

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41 Comments on “New or Used: To Jeep Or Not To Jeep...”

  • avatar
    Educator(of teachers)Dan

    Good solid advice from the guys on this one.  If you really want to take on payments, fine but think long and hard about it.  If your not afraid of a “seldom seen” car you could get a similar (to the Toyota) Suzuki XL-7 (second generation), the various auto mags seemed to appreciate the vehicles utility.

    • 0 avatar

      Dan, Suzuki XL-7 is a rebadged Chevy Blazer. Stay clear from that thing. You might be thinking Suzuki Grand Vitara, which is all kinds of awesome, but a half-class smaller than XL-7.

    • 0 avatar
      Educator(of teachers)Dan

      I do believe you are right.

    • 0 avatar

      Actually, the newer XL-7 is an enlarged Chevy Equinox – whether or not that’s better or worse than a rebadged Blazer is open for debate.

    • 0 avatar

      I was actually going to suggest the Grand V.  It handles quite well and has a solid 4×4 system with low range.  It also has a timing chain in it which has more longevity than the Subaru (and a better warranty)…I don’t know what the RAV4 has in it.  The newer generation has a better ride than the older gen and you can get them in a V-6 as well for a ham sandwich. 
      The XL-7 on the other hand has clumsy on road manners but is nicely equipped inside. 

      Those old jeeps are nice though, just noisy and the steering usually has a bit of slack to em.  We had an old Commanche that we used to beat the snot out of (plow truck).  Original tranny with the earlier 4.0L.  It wasn’t very comfortable though.

    • 0 avatar

      The first gen XL-7 was a Suzuki design, according to Wikipedia.  The second gen was based on the same platform as the Chevy Equinox of the same year.

  • avatar

    You are to be commended on your vehicle stewardship, but I’d get rid of them both.
    I suspect the problems you describe on the Jeep will run much more than $1500 to fix.  The adage “Hondas run forever” is only true until yours breaks – at 13 years old and 186k miles, that could be any day, and it won’t be cheap to fix.  For either one, when they break, you’ll be faced with a $1k+ repair bill, wondering if you should do it, but knowing that if you don’t, the car is nearly worthless.  Move them out while they’re still worth something, and thank them for their good service.
    Together, they would provide you with about $6000 in trade or cash toward the RAV4, which is a great choice for your needs.  You could also consider a Kia Sorento or Hyundai Santa Fe (10-year warranty) or Ford Edge, all of which are updated/new for 2011.

    For example, if you got a Kia and paid it off in 4 years, you’d still have 6 years of warranty left and no payment. But if you kept the other cars, they would be 20 and 17 years old respectively, with ultra-high miles, and you will have possibly spent serious money and hassle just to squeeze those extra years out of them.

    • 0 avatar

      gslippy, “You are to be commended on your vehicle stewardship, but I’d get rid of them both.”

      from a purely practical point of view, glippy is right. however, the jeep is all kinds of awesome and no modern car, rav4 or otherwise, is ever going to put a smile on your face the way the jeep does when you wail through a snow drift in it. it will probably take more than $1500 to get it up to snuff. you may even get stuck once or twice before you diagnose all the issues. once you fix all the electrical and replacement part issues and keep the rust off you are good for another 200k of awesomeness.

      it’s a life decision. are you a car guy or not?

  • avatar

    I have a soft spot for both the XJ and the ’98-02 Accord, especially when they’re 5-speeds.  But I’d say dump them both and get the RAV-4.  At 200k miles, both those cars are ticking time bombs.  And dumping an unneeded vehicle will save you a few bucks on your insurance, too.
    On the other hand, you may want to consider keeping one of them.  Individually, they aren’t worth that much.  From personal experience, I have a hard time walking away from a good Honda…you may want to keep the Accord until the wheels fall off, it’s just a really good, economical car.  Just ask yourself if you think it’s worth it to give up two cars to have a slightly lower payment on one new one.

  • avatar

    Keep the Honda, it is worth more to you than you can sell if for.  The Jeep?  It probably makes sense to fix it but you have to be prudent with the money you spend.  If you have that many oil leaks maybe swapping the engine would cost less than all the effort to change main seals/gaskets.  But if the main seals are not too bad you could save a lot by leaving them and fixing all the other leaks.  I totally relate to your concern for a reliable ski car; I had a very high mileage car that I had to trust to get me out of the mountains.  Most problems that strand you or cause major damage are not caused by sensors and stuff like that.  They are caused by basic mechanical failures- hoses, belts, water pumps, etc.  Fortunately those are easy to replace and should be done as PM.  Don’t forget your wife’s Honda; you don’t want your wife stranded on the side of the road.  I do agree with gslippy in that the Jeep’s list of needs sounds like it will cost a lot more than you think to fix if you have to have a professional wrench to do the work.

    • 0 avatar

      “Most problems that strand you or cause major damage are not caused by sensors and stuff like that.  They are caused by basic mechanical failures- hoses, belts, water pumps, etc.  Fortunately those are easy to replace and should be done as PM. ”
      Agreed- with one exception. The crankshaft position sensor on these jeeps is notorious for failing unexpectedly, and that’ll strand you. It’d be a good idea to go ahead and replace it in a vehicle of this age.

  • avatar

    Tough call. On the one hand, you have two ultra-reliable vehicles there…but I do hear the clock ticking on them both. How able are you to do mechanical work yourself? The Jeep could be a nice “restoration” project…do the work required to keep the fundamentals sound and use it for your outdoor adventure vehicle.
    If the Honda is in beautiful shape, you could keep running it…if it’s starting to look worn around the edges, it may be time to send it down the road before it nickel and dimes you to death. A stick shift Honda will sell for good money to somebody who likes energy drinks and The Fast and The Furious.
    The RAV4 is a good option, and although some are preaching to find a used one, my experience with trying to find a used Sienna last summer showed me that you couldn’t find a clean used one for that much less than a new one in New England. I like Subarus, too, although I got out of one for the Sienna because of looming mechanical doom on one of them (still have the older one, although it too might be on the verge of becoming a money pit).
    I guess since you’re scared of the Jeep leaving you stranded, you probably aren’t the mechanical type, so maybe it is time to get something nice and new.
    What is YOUR daily driver? It can’t be THAT embarassing!

  • avatar

    FWIW – My wife is still driving her 1991 Cherokee with the 4.0 straight-6 and the 4-speed (Aisin? – I was told it’s Japanese, at any rate) automatic transmission.  She dearly loves this vehicle.  When we started dating in January 2004, I thought it was on its last legs.  It left pools of oil everywhere it went, her friends asked her if she would park on the street so as to not sully their driveways.  It had about 265,000 miles at the time.  I fixed the leaky valve cover gasket and all other leaking seals, so that solved the leakage issues.  I was still nervous for her safety, as there is nary an airbag in sight, and the doors appear to be made out of some kind of tissue paper compared to even the lowliest new Fiesta.  In any type of collision (except maybe a small motorcycle), she’d be the loser.  When we became engaged in the spring of 2005, I asked her if she wanted a newer car.  She almost broke down in tears, not from joy at the generous offer, but because she didn’t want to give up her Jeep.  We came to an arrangement that we would replace the Jeep only when catastrophic engine/transmission failure brought it to a noble end.  Well, it’s now 2011, the odometer broke in 2006 at 275,000 miles, and she’s been driving it 50 miles round trip to work and back since then.  The math works out that it should have well over 300,000 miles, but it still purrs like a kitten.  Keep in mind that I have dutifully completed regular maintenance on our Cherokee, but your Jeep may have a surprising amount of life left in it!

  • avatar

    The Jeep XJ Cherokee may be the single most durable car ever built. It was Jeep’s first unit body and they way overengineered it. I think it was also Dick Teagues last car, a masterful styling job that remains remarkably fresh after more than two decades. Add the AMC 6 / 4.0, an engine that you have a hard time killing, and it’s not surprising to hear about 250K and 300K Cherokees.
    It’s hard to tell if they’re still in production in China but as of a couple of years ago they were still being sold as the Jeep 2500.

  • avatar

    At 200K that Jeep 4.0L is just breaking in. Rear main seals leak on these….it’s just the nature of the ancient 2-piece design. I’d fix the valve cover and maybe the oil pan since they are both relatively easy, but I wouldn’t waste my money on that rear main. You could probably find decent tires on cragslist from someone who just bought a used Jeep and wants to go with a lift and bigger rubber, and it would behoove you to join a Jeep forum and seek advice on whatever the other issues are. You may even make a few friends out of it who will help you fix your Jeep for beer.

  • avatar

    Boxelder, not sure about your Jeep but your wife definitely sounds like a keeper.
    Those Jeeps are one of the best SUVs out there if you can DIY.

    • 0 avatar

      I showed her your post and she had a bit of a chuckle.  She also spent a good part of her childhood in England as her father was stationed at Alconbury as an F-4 driver.  She is definitely a keeper, as you say!

    • 0 avatar
      jd arms

      My parents met at RAF Alconbury in the early 1960s.  He was an MP and she was teaching for the DoD.  Their cars: an Austin Healey Sprite and a Sunbeam Alpine – I can never remember who had which….neither drove a Jeep.

  • avatar

    I would keep the jeep and honda, both are extremely reliable. I assume you have the 4.0L I6 because its a sport. The 4.0L will last a long time, with proper maintenance which you seem to have done. Usually if the brakes pulsate they are really worn, and need to be replaced. I wouldn’t go with a RAV4 though, maybe a used Subaru or Audi or a new or used Ford Escape.

  • avatar
    Tree Trunk

    Sell the, Jeep you said you self you want modern features in your car and those the Jeep will not have no matter how much money you throw at it.

    • 0 avatar

      What Steve suggested makes good sense especially if you really want to push every penny out of your current vehicles.  I guess it’s just a matter of how much more sense does it make?  That’s really your call.  It’s hard to go wrong with the newer option, better safety, peace of mind, some more creature comforts.  The first time you get stranded with the old vehicle you’ll kick yourself…or your wife will.  Those vehicles you have don’t owe you a thing.  Perhaps sell them on a high note and remember them in all their glory.  :)

  • avatar

    Fix the Jeep. In upstate NY Cherokees are ubiquitous and seemingly unstoppable. The newer ones don’t even seem to rust much. As long as the body is sound, it’s worth the investment. They really don’t build them like that any more.

  • avatar

    The I6 in these jeeps last forever, we had one and it wouldn’t quit. I say keep the jeep, and the Honda, unless you just want a new car, if so, get a new car and stop worrying about it. Those two cars will last for a good while longer though, whomever gets them if you sell them will be happy you did.

  • avatar

    Dump the Accord as soon as you can, and pickup something similar to replace it. Keep and fix the Jeep if it doesn’t have significant rust, since it is a ski/camping vehicle you don’t really want something too new. The 4.0 is the second best 6cyl ever made and if it does eventually give out good used ones can be had for $200-$400 at least in my area and you’ll be good for another 100K.

  • avatar

    All the good, solid cars will last forever, but you will buy them again and again.  While both the XJ and the Accord sound like keepers, my experience is that 13 years is when repairs near the value of the vehicle convince me to get rid of it.  While I think reducing your fleet size is a worthwhile goal, I’m going to suggest that you buy your replacement vehicle and keep both the Jeep and Honda for now. Wait a few months and see which of those two vehicles just isn’t getting used or really does need an expensive repair, then get rid of that one first.  After a few more months you should know if your new vehicle really is covering all the bases for you.

    +1 on telling us what your daily driver is. You’re seriously asking advice about your fleet without disclosing that???????

  • avatar

    I would say keep the Jeep, as it likely to be a much better vehicle for the rough stuff than a RAV4. You could probably save quite a bit of cash by fixing the Jeep up yourself but that’s not for everyone.
    Then, if you want a new car with all the modern features and safety benefits sell the Honda whilst it is worth something and buy a modern equivalent such as a Accord/Camry/Malibu/Fusion etc.
    Is the DD a Kia Rio or Yugo or something??!!

  • avatar

    At 15 years old and 200K, that Cherokee needs a complete once over for that mountain run you are doing. …and I would buy it off you in a second if it weren’t for all the Christmas bills staring at us in the face. Cherokee with the 5spdI6 is one my all time favorite vehicles.
    Instead of dropping 20K to 30K grand on a new truck, I would restore the jeep (compression check and rebuild if needed, replace all the sensors and wibbly bits. Might end up costing 2-3K but thats huge savings over the cost of a new vehicle to replace the capabilty. Plus its not like you are going to get a lot of $$$ selling it.
    HOWEVER…thats just me as I already have 2 fairly new cars and short drives.

  • avatar

    I’ll throw my vote into the “Keep the Jeep” ballot box as well.  If it’s been generally reliable, as you stated, then I would be inclined to fix the leaks and keep it running.  The problems you describe are not out of line for the age and mileage of the thing.  That Honda sounds fine as well, so my recommendation would be to keep them on the road as long as you can but start stashing money away for their replacements.  The less you have to borrow for a car the better.

  • avatar

    The problem with your Jeep’s brakes are the rotors, they’re warped. Throw them out and buy new ones; they only cost about $40 a piece at NAPA. The Jeep 4.0 litre engine is indestructable, I have 267K on a ’91 and it just keeps going. True that about the rear seal, they do go north of 100K but it’s not that expensive to have replaced due to the open access of the underside of the XJ. If you put “old car oil” in it it will help to bolster the seals somewhat. The Jeep is primative, hardly modern, but then it has no pretensions as such, that’s why they run forever.

    BTW, the RAV4 is a very poor substitute for a Jeep on the basis of carrying capacity alone, very small & very cramped.

    • 0 avatar

      Change the rotors AND put new pads on it.  Also, if the brake calipers are the single piston type then grease the big pin they are mounted on.

    • 0 avatar

      It has all-new brakes.  I’m a little hesitant at doing the rear main.  I hear the oil pan is a bitch to get off, and I’m afraid of scratching the crank.  I was using high-mileage semi-synth, but went back to Valvoline dino-juice and a bottle of Auto RX

      The RAV has slightly more cargo volume than the Jeep, and is much taller inside (due partly to the external spare).  It’s much easier to load a mountain bike into than the Jeep.  The 2005 and older RAV4’s were really tiny and tinny though.  New ones are nice, big and powerful.

  • avatar

    The AWD system on the RAV4 is okay for light snow and that’s about it. If you can fix up your Jeep for a few grand and value a good 4WD system, I’d keep it. They’re dead simple and cheap to fix.

  • avatar

    Hi guys.  I’m the OP- Adam.  Thanks for all the advice.  I sent this in a couple months ago, and the deal on the RAV4 was only good to the new year.  We’ve decided to keep both old cars and wait to see what the 2012 RAV4 is like.  If it can get MPG anywhere near the Honda, we might sell it for the new car.  We’ll also see if Subaru can fix there shimmy issue.

    In the mean time, I’ve replaced the valve cover gasket, CCV orifices, and shocks on the Jeep (took all day- broken bolts).  It still has a vibration between 75 and 80 mph despite getting the tires balanced.  I’ve replaced the whole braking system except lines and master cylinder, and this pulsing still keeps coming back.  It isn’t in the pedal, but in the braking force.  It makes the rears lock up easy.  Transmission is good except shifting into 2nd when cold- that’s been stiff for like 8 years.  The engine runs great- I’m not at all concerned with sludge, compression, etc.- just leaks and old sensors.  I currently have a can of Auto-RX in there…thought it’d be worth a try for stopping the leaks.  It’s different than the other snake-oils…even well regarded on bobistheoilguy.  Now I just need to track down that high-speed vibration.  Probably needs new tires doe to the old ones being cupped from the old shocks.  Front end isn’t as tight as it once was, but isn’t awful.  The body is perfect except a tiny touch of rust on the windshield header- I live in New Mexico (got the rust when I lived by the beach and had a roof-box).  All the Jeep has ever required beyond basic maintenance is a few water pumps, a cat, excess brake work, a radiator, and a starter.  All the Honda has needed is a cat & starter.

    I live over a mile high, so more power would be nice in both cars- especially driving up the mountains.  More mpg is good, too, since that’s our biggest skiing expense.  There’s no new snow, so we’ll take the Honda this weekend.  The Jeep gets around 20 mpg, with a personal best of almost 24 mpg for two tanks in a row (achieved last septempter- so the motor still runs great)

    Safety is most important, and if you look on the NHTSA website, the RAV4 isn’t all that much better than the other two cars (except in side impact).  The Subaru is 2x as good as the RAV and 3x as good as the old cars.  I’ll bet the 2012 RAV will be top-notch though.

    As far as my daily driver…well…the only thing embarassing about it is how much nicer it is than the other two cars.  It’s a 2007 BMW 335i sedan.  It’s our fun car.  I got it CPO a couple of years ago for the same money as the RAV4 I was looking at (was going to replace the Jeep with the RAV then, but when I found out how little it was worth I decided to keep it). We use it for skiing sometimes, too, when we’re planning on driving more than 6 hours in a single day (has Blizzaks right now).  The Jeep was my DD before that, and I bike commute sometimes, too (11 miles). The Jeep is also a good “airport car”, and a spare. The BMW has been less reliable than either of the old cars, so it’s nice to have a spare…and that CPO warranty.

    One other thing that makes me reluctant to get a new car for my wife is that she just doesn’t take care of them.  She used to drive the BMW from time to time, but would always return it with a bunch of dust on the rugs (gravel parking lot- there’s a vaccum right next to where the car is parked for this purpose), usually with bird crap on it, and won’t ever help me clean it up.  She can still drive it whenever she likes on the condition that she returns it roughly as clean as she got it & give me a hand from time to time when it needs to be washed, but she preferred to just stop driving it.  I rode my bike in today and she took the Honda over the bimmer.  Just to see how much work a new car would be for me, I stopped washing her car, too, (I still do all the maintenance), but said I’ll help her wash it whenever she wants.  It just doesn’t get washed or waxed anymore…every few months or so.  So, a new car would be a lot of work.  I think a late-model used Subaru, Toyota, or Honda isn’t a good idea though.  They just hold their value too well, so you’re better off getting a good deal on something new.

    • 0 avatar

      Hm.  I wonder if the braking issue isn’t due maybe to something in the suspension not being as tight as it should.  Might be the tires too.
      And not to be all belligerent and such, but isn’t 75-80 MPH a bit fast for a Cherokee?

    • 0 avatar

      The brakes are fine for a while when first installed, and start to ulse again over a few thousand miles. Here in NM, the speed limit is 75, so 75-80 is fine. The Jeep is geared really tall- I’m only taching about 2250 rpm at those speeds, and it get low 20 mpg range gonig that fast despite having the aerodynamics of a shed.  Gotta drive fast when doing 300-500 mile weekend outings.  It’s a big, empty state.

    • 0 avatar

      Got it.
      Something else has to be loose or out of line somewhere.  I’m beginning to wonder if the wheel hubs might be a culprit.  I did some googling and found at least one case where it was the wheel hubs:

    • 0 avatar

      How about a sticking emergency brake cable for the rear brake pulsation? On my truck it releases enough that the brakes don’t drag, but they still catch once in a while.

  • avatar

    I had RAV4 since 2006. It is surprisingly large inside. I was apprehensive about the lack of pop-out rear window like on Escape, but eventually I got used to it. Once I transported a christmas tree that I cut at Mt.Taylor, with door closed. There was no issue with road clearance. I managed to get it high-centered once at one of our jeep club outings, but only because I got too cocky. I replaced RAV with a Wrangler because I wanted a low gear, and immediately had to take a big hit on utility. For example, RAV4 has 3500 lbs tow rating, and 2D Wrangler only pulls 2500 lbs. Imagine that! I do not have any regrets, but it’s something to keep in mind. I think the utility of RAV4 is often underestimated, because it’s thought about as a mere cross-over. The real life mileage on RAV4 was between 24 and 28 mpg. Wrangler nets me about 18+/-2 mpg.

  • avatar

    Why not get an off-road equipped Patriot or a Grand Vitara if you wanted a low gear but find the Wrangler lacking versatility?

  • avatar

    Steve – there are no real mountains in Michigan.
    Adam – keep the Jeep, or buy a used Subaru instead of a new Rav 4

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