This week’s Your Shitty Economy (YSE)™ Car of the Week: the 2005 Lotus Elise. Somewhere along the line responsibility took over your life, leaving no room in the garage for fifty-thousand dollar track toys. It’s amazing how five years and $5,000 a year in depreciation can help rationalize the need for a weekend toy. Let’s face it, the street legal go kart Elise isn’t good for much else. The ride will make your STI feel like a Town Car. And the noise? Even if the radio (if it has one) isn’t capable of drowning out the engine, who cares? Pop the top and let the wind rush and exhaust notes assault your senses. If you are flexible enough to make it into the driver’s seat the purity of it all will overwhelm you. Don’t even think of using the word luxury in its presence. Want to talk numbers?
Tell the muscle car guys you have a whopping 190 horsepower engine yanked out of an economy car and you’ll likely get some chuckles. Remind them you are hauling less than a ton of weight . . . or, better yet, show them. This used 2005 example is yours for only $23,995, does have a radio and even A/C. What a steal. For some vintage Farago-ness, see this review of the 120-horse 2002 Elise that Robert penned for a British audience.
66 Comments on “YSE Car of the Week: 2005 Lotus Elise...”
Back to TopLeave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
You can also login using Facebook Connect.
I *think* the Elise has a lightly modded version of the engine in the now defunct Celica GTS … so not quite an economy car, but it certainly isn’t a big block chevy.
I had said Celica, and I would love to have an Elise. The Celica was also light for its class, and once you hit the second cam, the engine was a screamer … pity it was so wimpy when off it though.
Yes, the Elise has the Toyota 2ZZ engine. It’s a fantastic little mill that also happens to withstand forced induction well. High revving, makes a great sound, stupid-reliable, and …efficient.
The 2ZZ is similar to the 1ZZ 1.8L used in the Corolla, base Celica, xD, and is related to that in the new Prius. However, the 1ZZ isn’t capable of the hotrodding (for one, the head is different, and not interchangeable with the 2ZZ, and I think the 2ZZ has somewhat stouter internals) that the 2ZZ is.
In the Lotus, it’s what the MR2 Spyder should have been (other than that the Lotus costs twice as much, even used).
RF’s vintage review of the vintage Elise is the best of vintage.
Looks like I just found my next car.
48K miles in 5-6 years. Doesn’t sound like it was used as a weekend toy.
I had never seen one of these until I was watching a Brit sci fi show called Primevil a couple of nights ago, some guy was tearing around a warehouse trying to get a giant bug off his car. That’s either an imaginary car, I thought, or some kind of Lotus.
The US market Elise came with CD player and AC standard (you pay $500 as an option to delete the AC). The radio unit has the fidelity of an 80s-era Walkman and the AC is about as powerful as a USB-powered fan plugged into your PC.
The Elise isn’t the only car that falls of the money cliff. How about a 2002 Maserati Coupe GT — $90k+ new now $25,000? Or, a 2004 MB CL600 — $140,000 new, now $30,000. Many examples of these two with very few miles (owners had four or five other vehicles in the garage) now going for a fraction of MSRP. Keep in mind they will still be $90k/$140k cars to maintain and fix.
Twotone
twotone:
You can definitely get some sweet deals if you fell for a dream car that was made 5+ years ago. My only concern would finding qualified mechanics and the $$ for upkeep…
The Lotus intrigues me.. A Toyota engine… Parts would be easy to find…
Does anybody know how robust these things are? Such lightness must mean that some pretty featherweight components were used and this thing was designed for England where folks just don’t do the mileages we do here. I bet the ball joints, lower control arms, and steering rack are toast at this mileage.
Cool car though, my rich neighbor’s son just got a blue one for his 18th birthday…
Much much much more fun than any Viper.
I bet the ball joints, lower control arms, and steering rack are toast at this mileage.
Since they started building road cars in the 1950s, Lotus has scavenged parts from other manufacturers. My Elan has a steering rack and other front end parts made for Triumphs.
My guess is that the rack is an off the shelf unit, perhaps modified by Lotus, the ball joints are standard issue as used on other cars. As for the lower control arms, I could be wrong but I think the stock units are forged aluminum.
The Elise is light not because Lotus scrimps on components but rather because the chassis is made from bonded aluminum extrusions, a technology that Lotus supplied to Aston Martin, btw.
Lotus is justly famous for making cars that are among the best roadhandling cars made. You’re not going to pull .9g or better on the skid pad with weak suspension components.
@Ronnie
Does your neighbor have a life insurance policy on his kid?
18 y.o. + Elise = trouble
Though one major contributing factor in accidents involving young drivers is the number of other young people in the car, so maybe they’re doing him a favor.
LOVE IT…now if I only could fit in it. But if Jezza Clarkston can sort-of fit in it, maybe I should give it a second try…$25K eh? Schweet.
Quote Clarkston…” Stuff sold by the gram is always going to more exciting than stuff sold by the pound”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE-PR86_Ek8
The Elise is, to put it mildly, a piece of shit.
Anybody seriously considering owning an Elise should join EliseTalk and read about the problems the cars have. They are disposable items, great for one-make club race series, plenty of fun for people who can’t quite make the gap to a real track-only car, but in no way are they serviceable alternatives to a Corvette or Porsche.
@PeteMoran: A Viper is more fun than an Elise. Anything an Elise can do, a Viper can do with the speedometer turned further around the dial. Elises can barely keep up with Vipers and Vettes in A Street Prepared autocross; on a road course, it’s never even close. But “fun”, I guess, is not always a function of raw speed.
@ Jack Baruth….Jack you’ve driven a lot of great cars so I’ll ask…If you had $25,000 to spend on a fun to drive car, what might you suggest? I’m thinking of it as a third car, with not a lot of road mileage, no long trips, mostly as just a fun-to-drive sporty car, hit 5-6 autocrosses each summer, maybe a few track days as well…What do you like?
@ Jack Baruth
I’d spend $25k on an Elise to play at the track and have TENS OF THOUSANDS spare every year over running a Viper or Corvette P.O.S.
I know at least a dozen Elise (and Exige) owners and they have nothing but excellent ownership experiences as weekend track racers.
Anything an Elise can do, a Viper can do
Maybe if the track is a rectangle of four straights and you have an UNLIMITED tire budget.
I’d take a Panoz Esperante over one of these. YSE has kicked the %^$# out of these, too.
Don’t Vipers eat money for breakfast? Uncle had one… used to go through serpentine belts like oil, had trim issues like an Aveo and qualified for lemon law until they traded it in for two SUVs.
They loved the car, but it was a pain in the ass.
-
A non-supercharged Elise should be a relatively painless trackday car… that Toyota 1.8 is a pretty good engine, and I don’t think you’ll be seeing much sludge on a car that will be spending most of its time revving its nuts off and not sitting in traffic.
-
Looking through the site, seems like a bunch of minor annoyances, like most anything you’d get with any import or small run sportscar built in a shed…
At least they’re not catching on fire…
troonbop
I had never seen one of these until I was watching a Brit sci fi show called Primevil a couple of nights ago, some guy was tearing around a warehouse trying to get a giant bug off his car. That’s either an imaginary car, I thought, or some kind of Lotus.
That episode had both the Elise and the Exige. The orange car he was driving inside the warehouse was an Exige; there’s an Elise in the background of some of the warehouse scenes. Both were shown tearing around the track in the opening scenes.
“Anything an Elise can do, a Viper can do
Maybe if the track is a rectangle of four straights and you have an UNLIMITED tire budget.”
x2 lol
@Stu:
Three answers.
$25K cash: CMC-prepped Mustang ($15K), trailer ($2K), older pickup ($8K)
$25K finance with a reasonable budget to fix and run the car: 2005 987 Boxster 2.7
$25K finance, not too much flexibility for repair: leftover 2008 Subaru STi, or 2009 Cobalt SS.
@PeteMoran:
This may interest you. Robert is going to kill me for pimping my day job over and over, but I happen to have the info there. Here’s Traqmate data traces of an Elise and a Mustang GT500. Note how they achieve almost identical lap times:
http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/06/24/speedsportlife-imaginary-internet-millionaire-track-test-ferrari-f430-v-lotus-elise-v-dodge-caliber-srt-4-v-ford-mustang-gt500/
Now, to put it in perspective, on that same track, run the other direction, a droptop Viper was more than six seconds faster than either the Elise or the Mustang.
People who think Vipers aren’t track superstars irrespective of power have never driven one on a track.
Looking through the site, seems like a bunch of minor annoyances, like most anything you’d get with any import or small run sportscar built in a shed…
The Hethel facility is hardly a shed.
BTW, speaking of Lotus, Mike Kimberly, who has run Lotus in a couple of stints since the death of founder Colin Chapman, recently announced his retirement. Kimberly, is 72 and would rather not retire but he has a painful back condition that was only partly relieved by surgery.
Auto enthusiasts owe Kimberly a debt of gratitude for keeping on of the world’s storied marques alive through some perilous times.
The comment about Primevil made me think. Considering that they’re a low volume mfg, Lotus has gotten their product placed in a number of high profile tv shows and movies.
Emma Peel drove an Elan in The Avengers
#6 drove a Seven in The Prisoner
The James Bond Esprits including the submarine.
It looks like Tesla is taking a page from the Lotus book. So far I’ve seen the Roadster on TNT’s Leverage (which has a big cross promotion deal with Hyundai’s Genesis and has all the bad guys driving Detroit iron), and on FX’s Royal Pains. And yes, both shows mention how its electric.
There’s a local example of 2006 with very low miles for 28k. It’s british racing green with orange stripes and black wheels. Sooooooo tempting.
The elise also has that wacky grin I love. Mazda had to copy that, too. :)
These things are typical british hand made, so some level of tolerance is expected.
@ PeteMoran
No, I’m afraid they are not. Ignoring the service requirements of either car, the Viper is more fun more of the time in more places. It’s more fun on the street, more fun on the track, and more fun loping along in sixth gear on your way to meet the girlfriend. It is just simply an all-together more enjoyable car, and I find it very hard to believe that anyone, who isn’t personally biased against the car for whatever anti-domestic or anti-big-muscle-car shoulder chip may exist, would reach a different conclusion after having honestly driven both.
That’s not to say the Elise isn’t a fun car. It is. Just in a completely, totally different way.
The Elise is, short of a few gotchas with the early cars (like poorly hardened camshafts), reliable on the street. However, it’s also more or less disposable. Run over a large object in the road, or slide one sideways into a curb, and you run the risk of totaling the car should you damage the suspension mounts or chew up the aluminum tub.
Do the same in a Viper, and you’ll probably crack an A-arm or bend a wheel, assuming you don’t just break whatever you ran over instead. The car is a tank, put simply, which takes a beating and keeps going. The Viper is probably the most reliable supercar you can buy for love or money.
The Viper certainly has its issues, at least in non-ACR trim. The wheels are boat anchors, the tires hockey pucks, and the factory suspension setup feels like it honestly was designed by someone who had a few too many three-martini lunch breaks. However, that’s really about it. Put good coilovers, light wheels and sticky tires on it, and it’s simply epic. It will out-handle and out-perform virtually anything that comes its way short of a flat out race car on slicks.
The Elise has more issues out of the box, even though it’s often harked as a track car for the street. It has the previously mentioned cam hardness issues, though to be fair that isn’t a terribly expensive or complicated fix. But it also has oil and fuel starvation issues, which is kind of a big deal if you’d not like to be buying new engines on a regular basis. It is also dog slow in naturally aspirated form, and while you can fix that with forced induction, doing it in a proper, no-holds-barred manner is quite expensive.
In short: The Elise needs $20,000 worth of custom go-fast parts tossed into it to be an all around enthralling, enjoyable car to drive all the time everywhere.
The Viper needs a set of wheels, tires and some shocks. Though, to be fair, by the time you’ve bought a Viper and sorted it out, you’ll have just as big a hole in your wallet as you would having bought a cheap Elise and set it up properly. As such the only metric that remains, for me, is the fragile nature of the Elise’s aluminum construction and composite body. One little mistake can total the car, or require a ~$5,000 clam replacement. That is not the case with the Viper, since they got rid of the $12,000 hood anyway.
The Elise has a key quality that no Viper, Mustang or Corvette will ever have.
It’s unique. Drive one down the road and most folks (even most car people) will do a double take. Even after two looks, most will wonder what it is.
I’m a Corvette guy… Maybe buy one of these for the wife in a couple years..
Viper not unique? Put down the crack pipe.
on that same track, run the other direction, a droptop Viper was more than six seconds faster than either the Elise or the Mustang.
Really? What does that prove? Nothing.
Here’s another example; the “old” M3 CSL ran the same time as the Viper SRT10 on Top Gear’s track driven by “The Stig” (Michael Schumacher??). (@ niky the SRT10 caught fire too).
And then there’s Top Gear video of an Exige TOYING with a GT500. Clarkson was in the Exige, while The Stig was in the GT500.
What does that prove? Nothing.
We have two Viper SRT10 runners in our club and they spend the most out of all of us over about 5 regional tracks we go to in a year. The five or six Elise owners check their tire pressures and change their oil…….oh, no sorry that’s wrong, they put fluid in the washer well, sometimes.
The Viper owners have the advantage at one track (long straights and the twisty bits are a bit uphill) but their tires are dead after ten or so laps. Pile on the $$$. LOL.
BUT, we have a GT-R owner spanking us all (911 GT’s included), but he’s also spending a bit he discovers.
Hey, we all have ENDLESS fun! That’s the only point to it.
I’d have an Elise (or an Exige) in a heartbeat.
I have a good friend with an Elise. I helped him drive it back from the dealer in CT and still drive it occasionally. It is a blast! A 2006 purchased in 2007. It has been bullet-proof. On it’s second set of tyres (the original Avons were softer than gum on late-August blacktop). And my friend does not go softly on it. (RF, it is the burgundy one about town).
More fun – to me – than a Viper as it is far more tossable…and I bet most Viper guys hate it because well, if you can’t fold up, you can’t get in…or out! Jack?
But, take it for a weekend trip that includes 3+ hours of driving each day and you’ll be wanting an STI instead.
Always wanted an Elise, however insurance in Chicago was way higher than an Sti. The STi is also more practical in winter, less exotic ( you really want to attract LESS attention in Chicago, esp when parked) and more practical than an elise.
I still think as far as looks, elise > viper > sti, but ah well, my STi is paid off :)
Ronnie Schreiber :
July 19th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
The Hethel facility is hardly a shed.
‘Twas meant in jest.
-
I would love to have an Elise.
Preferably with a Honda K20 in it… much more torque, much more top end… lots of fun. None of the nasty complications of supercharging.
-
Eating oil on track (which is what I assume is the oil consumption issue Jack is talking about) isn’t a big deal or a rare thing for transverse engined cars (or actually, any road car) that are taken on track. It’s merely amplified by the long service intervals specified for the Toyota engine and the fact that high revs can speed the process up.
Just add a little more oil if it starts to happen… and once the engine becomes a card-carrying lifetime member of oiloholics anonymous, swap it with either another Toyota unit or the aforementioned K20.
No, I’m afraid they are not. Ignoring the service requirements of either car, the Viper is more fun more of the time in more places. It’s more fun on the street, more fun on the track, and more fun loping along in sixth gear on your way to meet the girlfriend. It is just simply an all-together more enjoyable car, and I find it very hard to believe that anyone, who isn’t personally biased against the car for whatever anti-domestic or anti-big-muscle-car shoulder chip may exist, would reach a different conclusion after having honestly driven both.
Judging by that post, the commenter was mostly concerned about power and maybe absolute lap times (kind of silly in a track _toy_). Well, if that’s the case, an elise is not the ideal car any.
Might I suggest a GT-R? :)
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-2009-porsche-gt2-%e2%80%93-switzer-performance-p800/#comment-1512568
–
Viper not unique? Put down the crack pipe.
There are less elises in the US, maybe 5k, and they are less likely to be bought as showpieces so they’re about as commonly driven around as ACRs.
@dgduris: The Elise isn’t that difficult to get in and out. I’m 6′2″, 220lbs, effectively crippled by multiple injuries sustained in a singularly unrewarding pro BMX career, and I can get in and out without difficulty, so I’d imagine nearly anyone else can. My Seven clone was much tougher.
For the record, I reviewed a turbocharged elise for TTAC a month ago:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-2009-lotus-elise/
@PeteMoran: Top Gear is entertainment, plain and simple, and the video you see reflects that. I don’t know how your friends in their SRT-10s run through tires in ten laps, given that the current Viper runs competitively in the SCCA’s T1 class, where races are longer than ten laps.
@ Jack Baruth
Top Gear is entertainment, plain and simple, and the video you see reflects that.
Did you get to the bit where the M3 CSL is faster than the Viper SRT10? What a shame. Hard to take I guess.
The point remains. You give me example Track A where car X is faster than Y, and I’ll give you example Track B where car Y is faster than X.
The Elise/Exige can be competitive and heaps of low cost fun compared to dozens of other “supposedly” faster low-tech dumb-brawn cars (Viper etc…). Which leaves those dumb-brawn car owners sucking their thumbs/dummies.
Petermoron,
How convenient you forgot to mention the Viper time was in the rain. Yawn… Not that I put much faith in Top Gear ‘airstrip’ times anyway, as the show is self-acknowledged for entertainment purposes. The reality is ‘you’ seem to have bias towards American performance cars, and it is painfully apparent by your comments. The REALITY is the Viper + Corvette ZR1 spank everything you’ve mentioned, and are dead reliable and easy to maintain regardless of the nonsense you spat. And everyone knows it, and is secretly laughing at your silly assertions. Even the Euro-Mags ‘now’ acknowledge this… I suggest instead of spatting off lies about performance, you focus on interior quality or fit & finish issues. This is the route most others go, as the performance/handling argument is ‘old-hat’ and had been proven to be a ‘big lie’ to the uninformed.
For those that are ‘truly’ looking for the performance bargain of the century, may I suggest a lightly used (low mileage) Corvette C5 Z06. An under-rated 405 HP motor, and a 3,000 curb weight! For about $20,000 it will utterly destroy any Lotus Elise, in ANY event. Even a lame parking lot autocross, where the Elise should excel. The C5 Z06 has many SCCA rings under it’s belt. It will be dead reliable, cheap to repair, and is daily drivable. There is NO better performance buy at $20,000.
Agenthex,
There are less elises in the US, maybe 5k, and they are less likely to be bought as showpieces so they’re about as commonly driven around as ACRs.
And your point is? Mine was that the Viper is very unique, not that the Elise isn’t. They are both unique and rare. Seeing either on the street is EXTREMELY uncommon.
@ agenthex
No, I’m not mostly concerned about absolute power. However, I’m also not a “this car is slow as hell but handles awesome” apologist, and hence I refuse to gloss over the fact that a stock Elise is painfully slow, especially on the street, to the point of it being a chore to drive. I don’t like having to drop two gears and drive something like a Radical with a bike engine to achieve an acceptable amount of acceleration.
Likewise, I’d rather walk than drive a 500+ horsepower Mustang or Challenger, with otherwise stock suspension and brakes. Power is important, but not absolutely, and not at the expense of handling. The reverse is also true, and it’s something that Lotus has been unfortunately forgetting with everything since the V8 Esprit. You need both for a well-rounded, enjoyable car.
Not my thing. I like cars, not video games. I’d take an Elise over a GT-R any day and twice on sunday, even if it is slow.
They are both unique and rare. Seeing either on the street is EXTREMELY uncommon.
You know, there are places where flashy cars are more commonplace. The viper has been around a lot longer and sold more in such places.
No one is saying your car is not unique at all, it’s all relative.
-
Not my thing. I like cars, not video games
It’s kind of telling the lengths folks have to go through to hate on that car. I thought the GT-R was pretty cool to include comprehensive telemetry like higher end racing cars. I guess the part where they designed the car for the best possible stability is also bad, since that kind of thing also made the awd lambo a video game car.
-
and hence I refuse to gloss over the fact that a stock Elise is painfully slow, especially on the street, to the point of it being a chore to drive. I don’t like having to drop two gears and drive something like a Radical with a bike engine to achieve an acceptable amount of acceleration.
It’s funny when people say this. Were they hoping for an automatic? (hey the GT-R has that, LOL. or about half of corvettes).
Also, we want some vids of the kind of street driving where a lotus is too slow. That’s usually the kind where cops are in pursuit or will soon be.
stevenm,
No, I’m not mostly concerned about absolute power. However, I’m also not a “this car is slow as hell but handles awesome” apologist, and hence I refuse to gloss over the fact that a stock Elise is painfully slow, especially on the street, to the point of it being a chore to drive. I don’t like having to drop two gears and drive something like a Radical with a bike engine to achieve an acceptable amount of acceleration.
Likewise, I’d rather walk than drive a 500+ horsepower Mustang or Challenger, with otherwise stock suspension and brakes. Power is important, but not absolutely, and not at the expense of handling. The reverse is also true, and it’s something that Lotus has been unfortunately forgetting with everything since the V8 Esprit. You need both for a well-rounded, enjoyable car.
Couldn’t agree more, although I hear the latest Mustang (2010) isn’t half bad. I have my doubts until a test drive… The mistake some people are making is comparing the Viper to these ‘muscle/unibody’ cars. The Viper is an EXTREMELY ridged full steel framed car with coil-overs on all four corners. Absolutely no body roll with ‘almost too quick’ steering. Even comparing these cars (to a Viper) shows ignorance beyond belief. This is the first time I’ve EVER heard anyone do so… Similar to saying the STR10 tires only last 10 laps, when in reality they are very sturdy Michelin Pilot Sport PS2’s. A VERY durable tire with a treadwear rating of 220. Normal street driving yields you about 20,000 miles, and they also wear very well on track.
Also agree with your analysis on the Elise. On the track at full boil, I could see it being a fun car. On the street it is a dog. I had about 2 hours with the car (on the street), and came away with the following conclusion: Wow, this car would be sooooooo much better with a different engine. No throttle response unless your RPM’s are above 6,000, and that is too tiring on the street. It’s not so much about the ‘ultimate limits’ of a car, but how the car arrives at those limits. The primary reason we don’t see ‘bike’ engines in cars. The Elise also has dual personality upon enter/exit. Top off, no problem. Top on, hope you’re flexible. I never thought my Viper could feel like a Cadillac, but the Elise made that happen.
@ onerareviper
How convenient you forgot to mention the Viper time was in the rain.
Did you get to the bit where the M3 CSL’s time was also “in the rain”??????????????????
(They use “W” for Wet Track).
Geez.
My point being you’re not exactly going to get a time representative of a 500-600 HP RWD car in the rain, especially one with no electronic nannies. I believe the latest Z06 did what, a 1:22 or so in the dry?… The base Viper is a quicker car. Again, though, Top Gear is a fun program to watch. But defending a cars performance based on their airstrip times is not a good idea, IMHO.
No, a useful power band. Try driving the cars in question sometime, and perhaps you’ll have an idea of what I’m talking about.
The SRTs didn’t get the PS2s prior to MY 08, and hence most people have experience with the previous Pilot Sport run flats, which are, to be kind, junk. “10 laps” is pushing it, but I’ve seen the run-flats melt after about 3-4 sessions (100-120 laps). The PS2s are a different animal entirely, and are awesome. I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone tracking a 3rd gen SRT would be doing so on the stock tires. I have seen it happen, but generally by people who are new to track driving, and quickly throw them in the trash following their first event.
@ PeteMoran
Here’s the key piece of information your CSL fanboyism, vis-a-vis Viper bashing is missing: Tires.
The CSL came out of the box with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup rubber. The Viper Top Gear tested was one of the first generation SRT cars, which came with Pilot Sport run-flats. The difference of available grip between the two cars, and relative ability to cane the thing to a quick lap time, is not exactly slight.
While even the 3rd gen’s 500hp gave it a significant power advantage over the CSL, it was at a massive traction disadvantage given the tires both cars were equipped with.
You’re also glossing over the fact that the CSL ran on a “damp” track, whereas the Viper ran through significant amounts of standing water.
In short: Apples to Oranges, and none if it has a thing to do with buying an Elise.
stevenm,
;) Oh yeah, I forgot about those runflats. Probably because most people dumped them ASAP. Matter of fact, if you look on Tirerack for 2003 Viper tires it shows Pilot Sport PS2’s.
No, a useful power band. Try driving the cars in question sometime, and perhaps you’ll have an idea of what I’m talking about.
That’s exactly what I commented on. It’s why they put in a transmission, and they even make automatic ones for cripples (or very fast shifting in some cases :)).
BTW, where’s the street hoonage/arrest video?
-
Again, though, Top Gear is a fun program to watch. But defending a cars performance based on their airstrip times is not a good idea, IMHO.
How about ‘ring times? All around 7:50ish, fair enough? Make sure to look at the non-ACR, too.
I agree, ‘Ring times are not the greatest indicator either. It all depends how much time/effort ‘whomever’ spends at the track to achieve a maximum lap time. Dodge never spent any with the non-ACR. Matter of fact, I believe it was the Viper Club of America that went with the ACR. Far from a full factory effort. One afternoon and 5 or 6 laps to be exact. What’s funny and worth talking about is they broke the production record that so many internet warriors + Euro/Jap. companies hold dear, in a couple hours and sub-par track conditions (wicked head wind). This is really the only reason I mention this from time-to-time. I wonder what the GTR’s times were the first few times out? 7:50’s come to mind… That might be optimistic, probably not even sub-8’s.
As for non-ACR track times, the car is showing to produce similar lap times as the ZR1 (in the real world). So figure with enough effort similar to GM, the base Viper could pull a similar ‘Ring time. The ACR would easily be in the low teens with enough time/effort + ideal track conditions. But I doubt Dodge will ever do this (or specifically Viper Club of America), as they proved their point IN A BIG WAY. Especially if you watch the entire lap where missed gears, banging rev-limiter, staying in lower gear due to headwind, etc… are all apparent. Anyone with an ounce of racing experience knows that lap could be improved upon, big-time. Imagine if they spent ‘months’ like someone we know (ahem, Nissan).
Back on topic – YSE. Forget the Viper, as a Gen II with ‘no stories’ + ‘no accidents’ is still 40K+. Has anyone actually went and looked at a 30K Viper? I have. “Did I mention it is an R-Title?”. “Did I mention it’s been painted?”. “Yes, I’m the eighth owner.” etc…
Staying in the 20K ballpark for a car with ‘no stories’, I’m still waiting for a worthy competitor to the Corvette C5 Z06. That is if you like a little track time along with your street car. Can drive daily, cheap to maintain, very reliable, decent fuel economy, and a track monster. Toss a good set of tires + coil-overs and you’ve REALLY got a beast.
Matter of fact, I believe it was the Viper Club of America that went with the ACR. Far from a full factory effort.
That’s what their fanbois like to believe. Dodge paid but didn’t ship out the factory. They ran two cars, logistics by folks who run vipers at the full ring races plus their ring specialist, and a half day of empty track.
Not exactly a half-hearted effort.
–
I wonder what the GTR’s times were the first few times out? 7:50’s come to mind… That might be optimistic, probably not even sub-8’s.
People seem to forget this is a new car. The last sport auto supertest is a 7:38; all of their times are higher than best possible manufacturer. They logged ~7:50 for many fast cars. The earlier viper tests were all 8:00+.
–
Especially if you watch the entire lap where missed gears, banging rev-limiter, staying in lower gear due to headwind, etc… are all apparent.
You obviously didn’t watch the lap, or have no idea what to look for. Some of this stuff is because of the car, like holding at the limiter instead of shift because shifting takes time and may bump the engine to a less ideal rev.
You’re comparing a car w/ race coilovers and race aero, racing size tires and quite a bit more power, to standard production cars, and you’re boasting it’s somewhat faster? Really?
–
Imagine if they spent ‘months’ like someone we know (ahem, Nissan).
Nissan has done more “speed” runs during the manufacturer pool days (few times a year). It’s true they spent a lot more time around the track, and that’s because they develop there, thus a part of the reason why the car has excellent stability and control under difficult track conditions.
You realize that they weren’t going for a “record”, right? If they were, the car would certainly have more power and thus speed down the long ring straights. Just putting ACR size tires on would cut seconds, but track times are a bonus, not prime objective, which is why it’s even more amazing.
–
The “not enough power” for a street car is always amusing. The WRC runs tarmac rallies and had about a 300hp limit with pretty affable drivetrains because more was found to be dangerous. The question is whether the wannabes really think they have skills that demand more.
@ onerareviper
My point being you’re not exactly going to get a time representative of a 500-600 HP RWD car in the rain, especially one with no electronic nannies. I believe the latest Z06 did what, a 1:22 or so in the dry?… The base Viper is a quicker car.
But it wasn’t, and they weren’t using the base Viper they were using the SRT10! The CSL has near-slicks in the damp and the SRT10 was run after some rain, but not wet, but a little worse than “damp”. It wasn’t faster than the M3 CSL.
So you’re saying the Viper is crap in the wet/damp??
But defending a cars performance based on their airstrip times is not a good idea, IMHO.
WTF? As long as the tests are back to back, it doesn’t matter where does it, or are we heading back to “The ‘Ring answers ALL questions….” carp.
@ stevenm
I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone tracking a 3rd gen SRT would be doing so on the stock tires.
So the costs of running a Viper for track work skyrocket?????????????
Tires are the thing that kill my budget and I try hard not to use too many up, but the SRT10 owners in our club literally CHEW through them compared to me. I have no idea what they use; Chrysler recommended maybe???
I don’t see them achieving anything more than me in lap times apart from one of five tracks we go to, BUT, they’re having the fun they want to. Good luck to them.
My point has been (continuously) the Viper (any of them) is not the LAST WORD in cars as yourself and the unfortunately user-named onerareviper would have everyone believe.
From my point-of-view they have nearly no advantages, should perform much better given the weight, power and expense and are less fun than the Elise/Exige.
your (M3) CSL fanboyism
Absolutely. One of the finest cars ever produced. Balanced in every way and extremely entertaining on track. Like the Elise, it out-performs (rather than under-performs = Viper) your expectations when you get in and go.