You are absolutely correct! Fit and finish was far better in the TL, but these are entry level sports sedans and the performance matters! Furthermore, I find it comical people in this thread think the TL is better compared against the BMW 5 Series. As I stated, Acura needs to focus on how to trump its Japanese rivals before it sets its sights on BMW.

Brian E:

Are you seriously using Edmunds as a source for a comparison test? Well, since we’re cramming links down each others throats (both of yours being Edmunds sourced), let me fire back with a few of my own.

Motortrend
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0503_luxury_sport_comparison

Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/9391/2005-acura-rl-v-2005-audi-a6-v-2005-bmw-530i-v-2005-cadillac-sts-v-2006-infiniti-m45-v-2005-jaguar-s-type-v-2005-lexus-gs430-v-2006-m-b-e350.html

Notice how BOTH of the provided links have (a)the benchmark BMW 5 Series included in the comparison, and (b) the Infiniti M topping the list.

I can’t speak for the newest models, but in ‘03-’04 when both the G35 and TL came out, the materials, fit/finish and layout of the interior were night and day better in the TL (I’ve driven both). I think most articles I read at the time felt the same way. I’d say Honda spent some money on the inside of the car to make it a nicer commutor/ daily driver, even if it wasn’t a match in performance “numbers”.

For me, I’d take the car that’s put together nicer over the one that posts .03G better skidpad numbers.

You may want to check those facts.

Edmunds’
2005 All-Wheel-Drive Luxury Sport Sedan Comparison Test: Acura RL in first place.

Edmunds’
2005-2006 $50K Sport Sedans From Japan Comparison Test: Acura RL in second place, behind the Lexus GS but ahead of the Infiniti M.

Yikes. TL versus 335i? No contest. The TL has plenty of power as long as you hold on to the steering wheel tightly and don’t try to go around the corner while applying any throttle.

The TSX is in no way a competitor to any BMW, as it is outclassed and out gunned in every way by every 3-Series BMW offers.

Whoa, now that’s harsh. BMW offers a lot of 3-series with less power than the 328i in much of the rest of the world, and I wouldn’t see anything wrong with throwing a Canadian-market 323i up against the TSX. I also still think that the TSX has a nicer interior than the E90, which is marred by some unfortunate plastics and cheap headliner material. That said the TSX was designed to compete with the E46, not the E90, and that it did nicely. Acura seems to be a few years off of the BMW product cycle.

What is relevant however, is that the TL is INTENDED to be compared to the 3-Series, while the RL is also INTENDED, by Acura, to compete with the 5-Series.

Any comparison test between the TL and a BMW product pits it against the 3-Series, same w/ the RL and the 5-Series.

I agree that the TL blows the doors off of a 328i, but it is far closer in performance to the 335i, which is an equal representation of the 3-Series line, and the closest competitor IMO to the TL.

The TSX is in no way a competitor to any BMW, as it is outclassed and out gunned in every way by every 3-Series BMW offers. It is intended as a sub-entry-luxury car for those who want the perks of owning a high profile brand and an element of sportiness, but don’t want to have to pay the high prices that come along w/ entering TL/3-Series territory.

I know its difficult to fathom for some (mostly because of the twenty thousand dollar difference on the sticker), but the TL is better shopped against the 5 series than the 3. Which leaves the RL all wet, admittedly. No disagreement there.

Here is the reality:

TSX = No BMW competitor, super low end premium car.

TL = 3-Series competitor, HANDS down.

RL = 5-Series competitor, HANDS down.

RDX = X3 competitor (which you got)

MDX = X5 competitor (which you got)

Acura appeals to the same qualities that BMW’s do. My brother worked at BMW and used to say that their favorite customers were ex Honda customers. People that buy one will consider the other. Things like aluminum suspension components, bending headlights, inline six engine, rear wheel drive, 50/50 weight…BMW get this stuff right.

Also I hate how Honda and Acuras rear ends sag when they get older.

Honda have their hands in too many pots. They are even making business jets now (and big ones at that!) I WAS a Honda guy. Lately though they seem to water down everthing. Their ATV’s are average now (bought BRP this year), my Honda lawnmower has plastic parts that fall off. I bought two generators recently and research pointed me to Yamaha. Buying a Yamaha Waverunner in the spring.

I think the same is true of their cars… just not quite good enough.

Wife owns a 2007 Honda Minibrain. It is the best out there, but much of it is cheaply made.

Honda/Acura should be where Toyota Lexus are now. In 1990 their products were far better AND here in Canada they outsold Toyota back then.

People notice when you water stuff down.

Reasons the TL and TSX continue to sell, despite an outdated platform:

They’re good-looking. Really good-looking. Especially the TL; that one still turns my head, and I think the last major redesign was 2003. The competition has moved toward the extended-hood, short-trunk paradigm that’s great for aerodynamics, but not so much for looks. The TL still has great proportions.”

Amen to that!

The Infiniti G35 is the media darling, and has also been very popular, but the styling went from robo-Japanese bimmer-clone to slightly-less-robo-Japanese bimmer-clone, not really getting any better in the process. The TL continues to look good despite its age.

Further, compare the interiors of the G35 and TL. Again, the new G35 is better than the original, but neither holds a candle to the current (4-year old) TL.

They’re good-looking. Really good-looking. Especially the TL; that one still turns my head, and I think the last major redesign was 2003. The competition has moved toward the extended-hood, short-trunk paradigm that’s great for aerodynamics, but not so much for looks. The TL still has great proportions.

The TSX is, in my opinion, ideally sized. If it had RWD, 275 HP, and a 2.5L with a light-pressure turbo, I’d already have one.

That being said, Acura’s first problem which they didnt’ address for far too long: keeping the Integra / RSX as part of the mix. You can’t build a prestige brand when (at one point) 50% of your $ sales comes from a line of vehicles priced below several Hondas.

[The Integra / RSX was less expensive than the V6 Accords, the Prelude (r.i.p.), Passport, ...]

The resistance that Acura received to dropping that model was from the Acura dealers: automobile dealers love high-volume models. This was a perfect example of being penny-wise and pound-foolish (or short term gain for long-term pain).

If anything, back in 2002 when the RSX came out to replace the Integra, it so happened that Honda was also dropping the Prelude sports coupe. What a smooth segue it would have been to introduce the new sports car (the RSX) as the new Honda Prelude, and free up the bottom of the Acura product mix.

It was only this year that, finally, Acura dropped the RSX. The TSX is the entry to the brand, and it is a worthy entry, properly competitive with the likes of the BMW 328i, Saab 9-3, Volvo S40 and S60, Audi A4 2.0T Frontrack, etc…

The “center” of Acura’s lineup is outstanding, vehicles amongst, or at, the top of their categories [read: TL / Type-S, MDX, RDX]. The next logical step is for Acura to quickly (ASAP!) drop the RL, and replace it with a proper flagship: Largest sedan in the lineup, V8 power, striking and distinctive styling.

Honda should have made the NSX out of steel rather than the price busting aluminum. The use of aluminum in the NSX was a waste of effort. Witness Porsche has no problem using good ole steel and does manage to get superior results.
The Aluminum body of the NSX prevented Honda from making any significant styling updates to what amounted to a somewhat uninspired design.
The NSX was not very fast compared to its competition yet it always cost an arm and a leg. It was fitted with a nice v6, an excellent engine that was not capabl;e of generating much attention. It was a v6 with merely decnt power for it class.

The NSX was designed to appeal to the “sensible” sport-car owner. That notion was completely blown out the window the first time a body repair issue came up. It is more expensive to fix body damage on a NSX than any Ferrari with maybe the exception of the Enzo.

When the NSX exited production it had a price tag of about $90,000. Clearly not worth it at that amount. All this was due to someone’s idea to use expensive aluminum for the body.

On the other hand the s2000 should have made use of as much aluminum or other light-weight materials as possible. Dont get me wrong the S2000 is a wonderful car it is just about 300 to 500 lbs over weight. It is important to remember that the s2000 can lay down close to 160 lb ft. of torque, which is a excellent number for a 2.2l NA engine. The problem is the curb weight is pushing very close to 3000lbs making it feel somewhat sluggish unless you cain the crap out of it.
Now the biggest issue with the s2000 is that is expensive for what it is. Both a MX-5 and Nissan 350 can be had under $30,000. Race tracks aside the s2000 is ZERO match for a 350z in the real world. Remember we are talking FUN here!

I also think they should bring back a car the size of the Integra.

My TL also had lots of transmission problems. I wound up getting 3 of them over it’s 100,000 mile life. The Accord’s from that year did not have the same tranny issues. I’m back to the new Accord now and can’t really envision ever going back to Acura.

http://www.honda.nl/images/car/large/car_legend_03_2006_g.jpg

In the recent past I’ve owned the following non-V8 cars:

2006 Subaru WRX – 2.5L turbo-charged 4 cylinder
2002 Audi S4 – twin turbo 2.7L V6
2003 Nissan 350z – 3.5L V6
2003 BMW 325Ci – 2.5L inline 6
1972 240z – 2.8L turbo charged inline 6

Not one of them got over 27 mpg on the highway. Hell, the best I can do in the Subaru is 25 mpg **if** I drive ONLY highway miles. Hell, I can only manage 15 mpg in the 240z (then again it does put down 320 ft-lbs to the wheels).

There are quite a few V8 equipped CARS that exceed the fuel economy of the cars I listed above. It’s the TRUCKS that are killing the domestic’s fuel economy ratings, not the V8.

While I don’t disagree the S2000 has been a milestone for Honda (and quite the speed racer), I think the Miata is a better balanced, more driveable car for daily enthusiasts. And considerably cheaper, too.

100HP/cylinder!!! Wow that would be impressive.

Yikes! Err 100 HP/Liter. There we go.

FlyersFan: Thanks for reminding us. That is correct. Honda was concerned that Acura’s name recognition was not as high as “Legend” or “Integra”. It was becasue they were very good cars that inspired tremendous loyalty from their owners. I know, I was one of them.

Now, if we could only get Lincoln to realize the same thing.

From what I’m reading, we’re talking within the next year and most likely within the next 6 months.

I looked long and hard at the TSX. It has a tremendous design for what I’m looking for….everything included for less than 30k, all the options I want (HID, heated power leather seats, fold down rear seat), great 6-speed trans, and decent fuel economy. But the fact was, it didn’t have much power.

So I’m praying that it will either have one of the more torquey 2.2 liter diesels, or somehow ring some decent horsepower AND torque out of that 2.2 liter. Because so far, everyone wants that 2.3 liter turbo engine the RDX has…but it’s not that impressive of an engine. It’s fuel economy is abysmal (albeit in a CUV w/ AWD) and it puts out less output than the BMW naturally aspirated 3.0 liter engine, as well as worse acceleration. It’d still be an exciting engine in the TSX, but….

At the end of the day, people can comment on how the germans are all image and no content. But darnit, right now BMW offers a lithe RWD sedan with damn near 50/50 weight distribution and 300 lb/ft of torque at 1400 rpms. The engine even gets good gas mileage. The thing objectively performs on the same level as the previous generation M3 (albeit, with more tire-spinning in tight corners due to no LSD).

And I’m a BMWCCA member…I’ve got the roundel itch, and I’m going to have to scratch it before the japanese have a chance to win me back.

Joe