What has slowed the reduction in the fatality rate is that we picked the low-hanging fruit. The declines in the fatality rate are what is to be expected. As the rate has declined, further improvements are harder to come by, and smaller in scope – just as the last 10 pounds are harder to lose than the first 20.

If SUVs were truly killing the occupants of other vehicles, then the number of car drivers killed in two-vehicle crashes, as a fraction of all car drivers killed, should have risen dramatically as SUV sales soared.

But this hasn’t happened. If SUVs were substantially increasing risks to car occupants, then it must necessarily follow that this ratio would increase in tandem with the increasing numbers of SUVs on the road. The data from 1994 forward show no evidence of any such increase.

It’s the concessions that help us grow wiser. It’s the polarization that drives folks to this side of the boxing ring or the other, makes people think they can’t be friends with the folks on the other side of the argument.

These are reasons I hate electrion years and why I have really disliked this one with it’s long period of pandering and lies. More time to listen to the liars tell stories and make promises most of us will not remember or hold the politicians to.

:)

How far do we take this? How much responsibility is on the owner/driver of the small car – any?

SUV’s have slowed the pace of the reduction in the fatality rate. This has been quantified and studied, nobody really denies that this is the case.

In passenger car vs. LTV’s (pickup truck and SUV) accidents, the fatality rate for those in the passenger cars is four times higher than for those in the LTV’s. During 2005, 49% of all of the fatalities in passenger car accidents involving more than one car involved a pickup or SUV on the other end of it.

The numbers make it pretty clear. The combination of bumper height, body-on-frame construction and mass is lethal to those driving who are driving cars. The SUV occupants are more likely to be hurt by rolling the vehicle over, but they inflict a lot of damage on us in the process.

SUV’s create a lose-lose, as they not only have inferior active safety (they handle poorly, take longer to stop and are more prone to rolling over), but they also offer substantial inferior passive safety to those around them. Sucks to be a car guy, I guess.

Roads are built to withstand 80,000 pound tractor trailers. (For that matter, they were also built to withstand 5,000 pound late 1950s and early 1960s Cadillacs and Lincolns.)

The difference in weight between a passenger car and an SUV isn’t sufficient to cause additional damage to roads. The relationship between road damage and a vehicle’s weight isn’t a linear one.

John Horner: And yet, many SUV drivers are completely unconcerned about what might happen should they run into, or over, one of those small cars. When asked about the horrific damage a big SUV inflicts on a small car in an accident the usual response is: Dumb idiot should have driven a tank like me.

Even though we have more light trucks on the road than ever before, and light trucks are more than double the percentage of the vehicle fleet compared to the percentage that they claimed in 1978, the deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled is less than 1/2 what it was in 1978. The roads are safer than ever before. If SUVs were really wiping out the drivers of smaller vehicles on a regular basis, they would have also wiped out the gains made by safer vehicles and improved roads.

Also note that the majority of small car fatalities are the result of single-vehicle crashes or collisions with other small cars.

I don’t worry about SUVs any more than I worry about an airplane crashing into the house (and we live near a major airport).

And I don’t even drive an SUV, or want one.

If people had a real understand what the true risks are when on the road, we’d have less squawking about SUVs (and less squawking about people driving 80+ mph on limited access highways, but that would involve abandoning the dopey “speed kills” mantra that the slow and the clueless hold dear). We’d focus on lane discipline, driving training and targeting the truly drunk drivers (which means forgetting the “intoxication begins after just one drink” nonsense).

For that matter, if speed limits were set at realistic levels, maybe people would value handling and braking dynamics instead of bulk and the ability to float down the road.

I’m not holding my breath for that one, given that some people on the national stage (not on this site) have been calling for a return of the 55 mph speed limit. At that slow speed, forget about the SUV – we might as well drive 1974 Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams with mushy suspensions, disc/drum brakes (no anti-lock feature, either) and novocaine steering.

It might take years to build pipelines and other infrastructure for ANWR oil, but that’s an extreme case. Here in the lower 48, it’s just a few months from the time a drilling rig punches a hole to the delivery of oil to a refinery. Once the rig leaves, about all that’s left above ground are some valves. The biggest constraint right now is getting a rig: the industry was practically demolished in the 80’s bust. I used to occasionally drive by a field that held a vast sea of rusting drilling equipment, bought for a few cents on the dollar at bankruptcy auctions. Brazil has contracted for most of the deep water rigs, and it takes time to build more, let alone train workers.

ANWR (or any other prime source you’d like to name) won’t supply ALL our needs, but it will provide SOME, and prices are determined at the margin. Demand for oil isn’t very elastic so small changes in supply can lead to substantial changes in price. We shouldn’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And yet, many SUV drivers are completely unconcerned about what might happen should they run into, or over, one of those small cars. When asked about the horrific damage a big SUV inflicts on a small car in an accident the usual response is: Dumb idiot should have driven a tank like me.

The big SUV as a symbol of aggression is in fact one part of the draw they have … er had. How many truck and SUV owners bought them because they like the feeling a putting a big chromed snarling face up against the rear end of whatever they are driving behind. It is no accident that modern SUV and truck front ends are as big and menacing looking as possible.

That’s what bugs me most about some SUV people I’ve debated in forum: the idea that they (or anyone) is somehow not allowed to be criticized because there’s of a weird concept of “not having the right someone else’s needs/wants”. This refusal to accept criticism reminds of the more nauseating aspects of blind nationalism, and it speaks to an appalling lack of a accountability.

The ‘criticism’ you endure is a joke compared to the sneer, jeers, and in extreme cases, Friends of the Earth members trying to set fire to their SUV. The self-righteous indignation that many SUV critics have only makes things worse, and I find that to be more nauseating that whatever blind nationalism you think an SUV owner has.

We have 3% of the world’s known reserves, yet consume 25% of the world’s oil. We are not going to drill our way to independence no matter how many holes we make in the earth or how much offshore drilling we do. Our future energy is going to be made up from a variety of sources, the first of which is going to have to be nuclear, whether we like it or not. Anybody who thinks that we are held back from our own oil because of “enviros” or anybody else is mistaken. We simply don’t have enough of it on American soil. And ANWR’s contribution is just a drop in the bucket that is not worth the damage that it would cause. There are loads of areas in Alaska that Big Oil has leases on an they aren’t touching them.

The easy oil deposits have already been tapped in this country. Overseas, much of the new oil discoveries are places that are politically unstable.

The other problem is refineries or lack off. Ours are running at full capacity and there hasn’t been a new one built since 1976. All it will take to push fuel prices this summer well over the five dollar range is for a major Katrina-sized Hurricane to hit Houston.

We are definitely past the peak of full-sized pick up and SUV sales. I look for the market to stabilize at 60% of the peak numbers once the current panic subsides.

But I do thing having an economic car for 90% daily driving and a truck/SUV for the other 9% makes sense (Diamante and Ranger respectively for me). I’m still trying to justify the cost for a Mustang GT for the other 1%.

Then the SUVs will gloriously return to the road, like the buffalo returning to the American Plains. Large, safe vehicles for American families.

SUVs rock. Extinct? Not yet, not ever.

When a vehicle is selling ‘without reserve’, it means the highest bidder will be the new owner of the vehicle no matter what.

If a seller has to dump their vehicle and ’sell it without reserve’, they will often times get a price that is substantially lower than if they found a better time and/or place to sell it.

To give a personal example, I bought a 2002 Mercedes S500 for $12,600 in late April. This was about 70% of it’s wholesale value. Most vehicles have a reserve that is at least 90% of it’s wholesale value. However, since this particular sale did not have many folks with deep pockets, I was able to buy the Mercedes on the cheap.

I already saw 60 month zero % financing (I think on something Japanese).

The local Chevy truck dealer has at least 10 un-sold 2007’s still sitting on the lot, and in a few weeks here come the 2009’s. Prices will continue to suffer. Remember though, it’s only a good deal if you actually need the item you are buying.

Interestingly, not far from that dealership, CarMax has a similar ‘06 Hummer H2 with 65K miles, and their price is $27,998. I suspect it’s not drawing a lot of tire-kickers even if it’s like new. Of course, I’m so cheap and practical I’d rather have Lang’s Century or Villager.

Please tell me what “selling them without reserve” and “imagine what that’s doing to residuals” mean.

Thank you. I am not sure I understand exactly what those expressions mean.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140240370403&ssPageName=ADME:B:BCA:MOTORS:1123

The real gripe here is those people who own a Suburban to single occupant commute to work and pick up kid(s) from school. The SUV is a huge waste of gas and space and dangerous b/c of its size and potential to seriously injure or kill someone b/c the driver was inattentive (and how many times we seen Mr Sales Exec driving 90mph weaving in and out of traffic like Juan Montoya or Suzie Soccer Mom yelling at the kids while applying makeup and driving with her knees still talking on the cell phone). These are the idiots that bought the vehicle for the image – they don’t tow or haul or need 12mpg of body on frame SUV/truck capability – the most off roading they’ve ever done is park on the grass at a kids baseball game.

Hell I own a 2500HD work truck – 6.0 v8 can tow 12,000lbs – but I use it only for towing and hauling stuff – I can afford to have it as my daily driver and pay for gas but I don’t. It’s inefficient and dangerous for me to drive something so large and dangerous on the road.

It’s my business if the damn thing is blocking my view of the road ahead. It’s my business when someone who is ignorant of the shortcmings of SUV/pick-up dynamics at high speed and who is either ignorant or doesn’t care that SUVs are far more likely to kill the occupants of the other vehicle in a crash is cruising down the highway at speeds above about 50

I would sure hate to hear what you think about semi trucks.

I have a 1999 454 Suburban. Next month I’m taking 8 kids, a dozen dirt bikes, all of our camping gear, food, 100 gallons of water, 150 extra gallons of gasoline, tools and clothes for two weeks to the mountains of Colorado. I put roughly 3500 miles per year on the Suburban. Last year I got all of 6 mpg on the same trip driving a little over 1700 miles.

Looking at the prices of newer Suburbans, especially with the 8.1L engine, I’ll probably dump the 1999 and pick up an 05 or 06.

My daily driver is a Honda Civic. I must assume I’m on the list of despised people for having the temerity of owning a Suburban and using it for what it is designed for.

Like I said earlier, it is not my business what others drive nor is it anybody else’s business what I drive. We live in a free and democratic society. The automotive business exists to cater to consumers wants and needs. High fuel prices are changing consumer’s perception on vehicle selection and desirability. It will not take long for the nation’s truck/SUV fleet to age and drastically shrink. I may no longer desire to purchase a large fuel inefficient vehicle. I can guarantee though that it will not be influenced in any way by what others think I should be driving.

Just saying………… :)