That’s not the point. (And it’s irrelevant if they are anticipated – the key is how they are driving spending NOW and how they will drive it in the future.)

If the concern is deficit spending, and what is driving said deficit spending, the bigger culprit is entitlement programs. They far outstrip spending on the Iraq War, and they will only get worse in the coming years.

We can unilaterally exit Iraq next year – for example, if Senator McCain wins, he could have a Nixon-goes-to-China moment and announce a U.S. withdrawal. The expenditures eventually cease.

By contrast, it’s extremely difficult to cut entitlement spending.

ttacgreg: Please ponder this possibility. What is so wrong with domestic entitlements? That money is spent(I’d say invested) on our selves, our society. The money stays here, and stays in the hands of We The People.

Because we can’t afford them, that’s why. If we are truly worried about deficits – instead of just scoring points against the Bush Administration – then we must be concerned about ALL deficit spending. Right now – and over the long haul – entitlement programs are the main driver of federal spending.

Someone has to pay for these programs. We can raise taxes, but sooner or later, taxes will become so onerous that they discourage investment and encourage fraud or a black-market economy.

We can indulge our “tax-the-rich” fantasies, but the truth is that if we taxed the richest 1 percent of the population at 99 percent of their income, the resulting revenue would not be nearly sufficient to pay for future government spending (it wouldn’t be enough to pay for those programs for even a year). That means the middle class will have to eventually be taxed at a heavier rate.

Pch101: Welfare is good if it prevents the alternatives, like food riots and crime. If you want a good case study for what happens when a population is neglected, go search for Marie Antoinette’s head and you’ll find it there.

The French Revolution is a good case study of what happens when the government overextends itself in an overseas adventure, and then mismanages the economy at home.

Ironically enough, in this case, it was because the French government extended financial and military aid to the Americans in the Revoluntionary War, to spite the British. The French government then excessively taxed the populace and began meddling in the economy.

One reason there was no bread (hence, Marie Antoinette’s infamous quote) was because of government meddling in the free market (including price controls).

There are a few lessons for America in there, but not one that says we must spend more on welfare or entitlement programs to avoid riots.

Stein X Leikanger: If you’ve already made up your mind, geeber, there’s no point trying to change it. :-)

Housing values are dropping, but some categories are dropping faster.

Stein, the NPR article you linked to claims that housing prices in inner city areas are actually RISING. Now you are saying that they are falling at a slower rate than in other areas. Those are two entirely different scenarios, especially if someone is looking to buy a property.

With just a cursory search I was able to find a current article that directly contradicts the assertions in the NPR article, and I could find even more on thehousingbubbleblog.com, which has been tracking the imploding housing market for the past year.

I wouldn’t pay asking price for any real estate in this market, whether it’s located in exurbia, an older suburb or an inner city neighborhood.

Anecdotal evidence – my wife and I are looking for a house right now, and we have our eye on several properties. Bottom line is that the ones located in the older, closed-in suburban neighborhoods are not moving any faster than the ones farther out of town. Right now, virtually everything appears to be DOA around here.

You make a great point. I wonder though, that if they some how managed to put all that comfort in the smaller car, whether it would not just hurt the sales of the more profitable larger cars.

“There’s nothing the quadruplets above can do that a Corolla/Civic/Elantra/Cobalt can’t.”

Well, there’s something besides “power to burn” that bigger vehicles — such as “the quadruplets” — have, but the Corolla-class vehicles don’t:

Comfort.

I’m like a lot of “old geezers” who want nothing much more than one thing: That eight-way adjustable power seat. Heck, it doesn’t even have to be “powered,” but I’m just totally done with the just-barely-adjustable three-quarter-sized flimsy seats in the small, fuel efficient cars. Many of which aren’t much much more fuel efficient than “the quadruplets” are.

And “comfort” is a great big reason why “the quadruplets” sell in the numbers they do. This is all part of the discussion we’ve had about “compact hatchbacks” — just add some of the comfort we’ve experienced in the bigger cars, and we’ll bounce down in size.

Here is the problem with your theory.

If you reduce the military past a certain point, history will show that you end up in a war which will then cost more treasure and lives than if you had maintained a proper defence all along.

Furthermore, history has shown that domestic entitlements lead to high unemployment and lowered productivity.

There has never been a successful country in the world who used your formula without the protection of a larger power (e.g. USA) that lasted longer than a few decades.

Its amazing to me, as i drive arounf in my 4 cyl golf at the speed limit, all the huge SUV’s flying by me. I guess they dont get it.

“There are 23 countries in the world that derive at least 60 percent of their exports from oil and gas and not a single one is a real democracy.”
-Dr. Larry Diamond, Stanford University

I’ve found a way to survive without clean water and breathable air. You must have, too, apparently.

Just what harm do these dreaded “Enviros” do?

Might your great grandchildren perhaps appreciate some preservation of the biosphere, might they regret it if their experience of wild animals is rendered to videos of species we doomed to extinction? Do you think they might appreciate the preservation the biological viability of the planet? We are after biological beings. If you think economic collapse is tough, try ecological collapse on for size.

If you’ve already made up your mind, geeber, there’s no point trying to change it. :-)

Housing values are dropping, but some categories are dropping faster.

Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security account for almost 50 percent of federal spending. All three are growing, and will continue to grow as the Baby Boom generation retires.

The problem with military spending is that it is relatively unproductive. A lot of the cash goes to buying costly equipment that puts money into the pockets of a relatively small number of companies.

This was not necessarily true in the past, when building massive amounts of military equipment employed more people and cost less per unit. But high-tech results in high prices paid for equipment that was built with less labor, so there isn’t much gain for it.

Public works would be a better use for it. You not only circulate the cash in the economy locally, but you get infrastructure that you can use, that creates more wealth. Transportation and mobility create affluence.

Welfare is good if it prevents the alternatives, like food riots and crime. If you want a good case study for what happens when a population is neglected, go search for Marie Antoinette’s head and you’ll find it there.

Please ponder this possibility. What is so wrong with domestic entitlements? That money is spent(I’d say invested) on our selves, our society. The money stays here, and stays in the hands of We The People.
Money spent for the military is lost into the pockets of corporations who profit from war and “defense” spending.
In my opinion, the USA needs to model itself after Switzerland, rather than imperialist empires like ancient Rome. Historically, empires self destruct. Current trends in the USA clearly are leading to our delcine. The USA has enemies because we pick fights, and have our military based in over 100 countries around the globe. We invade soveriegn counties based on false premises, and have covered two of them in depleted uranium (and I am not talking about Japan). Our president vetoed a bill forbidding torture. The term “blow back” was originally coined by the CIA, not some “Liberal” and it is a reality.
If I could choose where my tax dollars go, sir, I would choose welfare over warfare, hands down!

Social security expenses (and the like) had been anticipated for a long time, while military expenditures were not so well known given the new administration and the events of 9-11. The “Axis of Evil” speech set the tone for Bush’s policy on military expenditures and triggered the dollar’s plunge.

Here is a quote from yesterday’s The Philadelphia Bulletin on the Center City condo market:

For months, the high-rise condominium boom that increasingly painted the Center City skyline with countless luxury units has continued to steam ahead, even as problems in the national housing and credit markets bogged down other housing sectors.

But now, after years that saw developments sprout up faster than rooms could be sold, Center City’s high-rise boom seems to be slowing. Projects have been quietly canceled or delayed, and with a glut of units on the market, more and more realtors see at least a temporary slowdown in the works.

Which contradicts the quote from the NPR article on Philadelphia:

“Philadelphia was losing downtown housing and in-town housing until very recently,” Goldberg said. “And now that’s the hottest part of their market.”

It’s not so hot anymore, apparently…

The NPR article quotes heavily from real estate sources…meanwhile, on the Housing Bubble Blog, I read about condominiums and other center-city housing going for less than the asking price, or sitting empty.

Are prices falling faster in exurban areas? Sure, because many of those houses are brand new, and thus cannot be withdrawn from the market (unless they become rental properties, or are demolished). Older neighborhoods are filled with homes that have current occupants. If they don’t sell, the owner can withdraw them from the market (unless the owner HAS to sell), thus preventing a sale that would drive down average values.

Quite a lot of info on housing values falling faster with longer commutes. Doctorhousingbubble.com has touched upon this, as well, with data.

Check out entries under this google search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=housing+values+dropping+long+commutes&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

It’s far better than people get in their F-150s.

I’m sure that “self-destructive” market is a code term for “large numbers of people thinking on their own and making choices different than I would make, and that I don’t like.”

Which doesn’t make their choices wrong or self-destructive – just not the type that you would make.

Actually, no…in the grand scheme of federal spending, the costs of the Iraq War are, relatively speaking, a drop in the bucket.

Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security account for almost 50 percent of federal spending. All three are growing, and will continue to grow as the Baby Boom generation retires.

To show how entitlement spending has grown, examine growth trends of the two largest programs – Social Security and Medicare. According to the Budget office of the U.S. government, in 1970 together they made up 18.7 percent of the 1970 budget. By 2006, these two programs made up 33.3 percent – almost double the 1970 figure.

So, if you are really concerned about federal spending, I’d suggest forgetting about the Iraq War (which can be ended with the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq). Focus on entitlement programs, which are a much more stubborn source of spending growth, and are likely to become even more expensive in the future.

though i would vote that [right now] 4 cylinder ‘large’ cars are smaller than the 4 cylinder mid-size [compact] cars you listed…

as for slower: I’d say that if you cannot drive a 4 cylinder civic ex with the same speed and handling of your current ride (whatever that is), then either:
you track your daily driver
you tow a trailer
you need to improve your driving skills
you current drive in a manner that is reckless / dangerous for both yourself and fellow drivers on north american roads…

There’s nothing you need a pontiac G8 (v6 or v8) to do that a 4 cylinder camry, accord, sonota or malibu can’t…

There’s nothing the quadruplets above can do that a Corolla/Civic/Elantra/Cobalt can’t.

Demanding that people buy on “need” is a very tricky proposition. I “need” to enjoy my car, and I “need” to feel like I’m not sending money overseas, and I “need” the Walter Mitty fantasy that I could powerslide my daily driver through the Corkscrew, so I “need” a G8 GT that gets almost as good mileage as a Camry XLE V6.

Unless, of course, we let you dictate what everybody else “needs”.

Then I guess I need a Civic EX, and I can spend the money I save on therapy after spending hours in a slower, uglier car that I hate with a passion.

The point was rather that the massive federal debt caused by overspending (in this case for the war) is the reason for the decline in the dollar.

It’s incredible, isn’t it? The 340,000 bpd that the military consumes maps to about 10 million cars in the USA. If the government simply confiscated those 10 million cars, and then gave the owners a new hybrid:

10,000,000 x $30,000 == $300 billion

which is half of the current yearly DoD budget. While this isn’t entirely rational, it isn’t completely insane either:

http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1001569

Fortunately, normal market forces will probably do the same thing (though on a longer timeline). Very good news indeed:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/california-gaso.html

Ford, GM, Toyota and the rest of them need to get off their butts and produce.

If you are referring to the HHO kits or other things various websites are peddling to increase your car’s mileage, they are pretty much universally bunk.

The only kits that do work cost many hundreds to a few thousand to buy & install, and are very difficult to install, hard to tune and nearly as hard keep tuned.

If you want to save money buy a hybrid or a smaller car, and drive it very conservatively.

Do not wait for space alien technology to save us all. Cargo cults are for losers!

Go buy a hybrid or other fuel efficient car.

Do it today, if you can.

yeah, that’s gonna fix everything!”

I think only lefty enviros can figure out how not drilling for the huge amounts of known available oil, or not developing nuclear or other power sources will have no affect on the price of energy.