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	<title>Comments on: Volt Birth Watch 71: Ready by 2010. NOW Can We Have Our Tax Break?</title>
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	<description>The Truth About Cars is dedicated to providing candid, unbiased automobile reviews and the latest in auto industry news.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:42:43 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: capeplates</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-664851</link>
		<dc:creator>capeplates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 07:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-664851</guid>
		<description>Parts to work for 10 years. Manufacturers have grown up in a throw away world where anything that lasts a long time is viewed with suspicion. The &quot;we&#039;ve had that for five years - time to change it&quot; brigade do not expect to keep a vehicle for more than a couple of years</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Parts to work for 10 years. Manufacturers have grown up in a throw away world where anything that lasts a long time is viewed with suspicion. The &#8220;we&#8217;ve had that for five years &#8211; time to change it&#8221; brigade do not expect to keep a vehicle for more than a couple of years<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: folkdancer</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-663452</link>
		<dc:creator>folkdancer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-663452</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Author: Stein X LeikangerComment:@folkdancer Here&#039;s something worth looking at - if you&#039;re considering alternatives.Formula-1 developer Guy Negre used MDI&#039;s money to come up with the air powered car.Six seater, 125 mile range, 68mph speed.  http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html &lt;/em&gt;

Thank You! Fun reading about the air powered car. Who knows if it is practical over all but it is wonderful to take note of people who are thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><em>Author: Stein X LeikangerComment:@folkdancer Here&#8217;s something worth looking at &#8211; if you&#8217;re considering alternatives.Formula-1 developer Guy Negre used MDI&#8217;s money to come up with the air powered car.Six seater, 125 mile range, 68mph speed.  <a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html</a> </em></p>
<p>Thank You! Fun reading about the air powered car. Who knows if it is practical over all but it is wonderful to take note of people who are thinking.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: nonce</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-663031</link>
		<dc:creator>nonce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-663031</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Or… plan to take a bath on warranties six or seven years in? &lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s an entirely reasonable product development plan.  Get out something now that will work now for five years, and in four years replace those parts on your first sales, using what you&#039;ve learned in the meantime to make sure that the part will work for ten years on new sales. It&#039;s all about building a market.

Of course, GM doesn&#039;t have big pockets to fall back on for this, so . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><i>Or… plan to take a bath on warranties six or seven years in? </i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s an entirely reasonable product development plan.  Get out something now that will work now for five years, and in four years replace those parts on your first sales, using what you&#8217;ve learned in the meantime to make sure that the part will work for ten years on new sales. It&#8217;s all about building a market.</p>
<p>Of course, GM doesn&#8217;t have big pockets to fall back on for this, so . . .<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: CarnotCycle</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-662912</link>
		<dc:creator>CarnotCycle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-662912</guid>
		<description>The begging for money schtick makes me sick. 
Every President since The Raygun has had some kooky initiative to &quot;transform&quot; our auto industry,  - usually involving handing checks out to the den of thieves - to develop some True Communism-mobile that would burn grape-nuts and exhaust Perrier.

It would be an interesting compilation to add up all the realized gains, either direct checks or indirect tax-breaks, amassed by the domestics over the past ten years. All that fat was reaped with the idea of the Car of the Future being the goal.

The result? Hummer. Oh, and some mis-placed chauvinistic laughing at hybrids sold by the Japanese. Anytime you see a Detroit suit laugh or dismiss something new from a a foreign automaker that seems quirky, buy stock in said foreign automaker because that quirk is going to be a hit in the marketplace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->The begging for money schtick makes me sick.<br />
Every President since The Raygun has had some kooky initiative to &#8220;transform&#8221; our auto industry,  &#8211; usually involving handing checks out to the den of thieves &#8211; to develop some True Communism-mobile that would burn grape-nuts and exhaust Perrier.</p>
<p>It would be an interesting compilation to add up all the realized gains, either direct checks or indirect tax-breaks, amassed by the domestics over the past ten years. All that fat was reaped with the idea of the Car of the Future being the goal.</p>
<p>The result? Hummer. Oh, and some mis-placed chauvinistic laughing at hybrids sold by the Japanese. Anytime you see a Detroit suit laugh or dismiss something new from a a foreign automaker that seems quirky, buy stock in said foreign automaker because that quirk is going to be a hit in the marketplace.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: NN</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-662551</link>
		<dc:creator>NN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-662551</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a thought...what if gas is $2.50 a gallon (in today&#039;s dollars) in 2014 when the Volt is actually available on the mass market to real paying customers? I&#039;m speculating on that year, but obviously the 2010/2011 time frame means very limited production and sales numbers.  And if they&#039;re worried about the warranty issues, they&#039;ll keep production volumes down.  One only has to look at GM&#039;s history...

GM has a propensity for terrible timing.  It is likely they will throw all their resources at this moonshot and then by the time it is really ready for the public, the demand will be where it seems to be now...competent, well built, durable, efficient gas-powered mainstream cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Here&#8217;s a thought&#8230;what if gas is $2.50 a gallon (in today&#8217;s dollars) in 2014 when the Volt is actually available on the mass market to real paying customers? I&#8217;m speculating on that year, but obviously the 2010/2011 time frame means very limited production and sales numbers.  And if they&#8217;re worried about the warranty issues, they&#8217;ll keep production volumes down.  One only has to look at GM&#8217;s history&#8230;</p>
<p>GM has a propensity for terrible timing.  It is likely they will throw all their resources at this moonshot and then by the time it is really ready for the public, the demand will be where it seems to be now&#8230;competent, well built, durable, efficient gas-powered mainstream cars.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: GS650G</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-662191</link>
		<dc:creator>GS650G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-662191</guid>
		<description>How about customers? Who wants to take a chance on this shit? They are really making some sales assumptions. I&#039;m not interested in one, there will be no guilty jealous feelings from me at red lights in the off chance these things make it to market</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->How about customers? Who wants to take a chance on this shit? They are really making some sales assumptions. I&#8217;m not interested in one, there will be no guilty jealous feelings from me at red lights in the off chance these things make it to market<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Stein X Leikanger</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-661272</link>
		<dc:creator>Stein X Leikanger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 07:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-661272</guid>
		<description>@folkdancer

Here&#039;s something worth looking at - if you&#039;re considering alternatives.
Formula-1 developer Guy Negre used MDI&#039;s money to come up with the air powered car.
Six seater, 125 mile range, 68mph speed. 

They are launching their version of electric on the frame as they await approval of the air powered one.

http://www.theaircar.com/acf/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->@folkdancer</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s something worth looking at &#8211; if you&#8217;re considering alternatives.<br />
Formula-1 developer Guy Negre used MDI&#8217;s money to come up with the air powered car.<br />
Six seater, 125 mile range, 68mph speed. </p>
<p>They are launching their version of electric on the frame as they await approval of the air powered one.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theaircar.com/acf/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theaircar.com/acf/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html</a><!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: John Horner</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-661131</link>
		<dc:creator>John Horner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 05:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-661131</guid>
		<description>We the taxpayers already funded two &quot;partnership&quot; development programs with Detroit out of which no cars were produced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->We the taxpayers already funded two &#8220;partnership&#8221; development programs with Detroit out of which no cars were produced.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: amac</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-661112</link>
		<dc:creator>amac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 05:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-661112</guid>
		<description>Redbarchetta : HEAR! HEAR!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Redbarchetta : HEAR! HEAR!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Redbarchetta</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660881</link>
		<dc:creator>Redbarchetta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 03:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660881</guid>
		<description>If I have to pay for a portion of their development cost for the Volt I want to see a portion of the profits, funny how that gets forgotten by the Big 2.8. Or o they now think they are doing charity work and are a nonprofit, ok right now they are a nonprofit but not my choice, just because they suck at what they do.

Unlike GM I know how to learn from history and the last multibillion dollar investment the general public put into those clowns didn&#039;t reap a thing, the money just vanished. I think the money would be better spent going to startups and individuals struggling to make break throughs in their garage on shoe string budgets. This corperate welfare has got to stop. They wasted their money on who knows what and weren&#039;t responsible, sorry but that&#039;s not my concern, you made your bed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->If I have to pay for a portion of their development cost for the Volt I want to see a portion of the profits, funny how that gets forgotten by the Big 2.8. Or o they now think they are doing charity work and are a nonprofit, ok right now they are a nonprofit but not my choice, just because they suck at what they do.</p>
<p>Unlike GM I know how to learn from history and the last multibillion dollar investment the general public put into those clowns didn&#8217;t reap a thing, the money just vanished. I think the money would be better spent going to startups and individuals struggling to make break throughs in their garage on shoe string budgets. This corperate welfare has got to stop. They wasted their money on who knows what and weren&#8217;t responsible, sorry but that&#8217;s not my concern, you made your bed.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: folkdancer</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660821</link>
		<dc:creator>folkdancer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 02:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660821</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m confused by all the &quot;versions&quot; of electric powered vehicles.

We have the hybrid where both an ICE and an electric motor drive the wheels directly. ie: Prius and Civics.

We have the light hybrids where the ICE gets a small boost from an electric motor but saves very little fuel. ie: Ford Explorers and Lexus.

We may soon have plug in hybrids that can go much farther on their electric charge before their ICE has to go to work. ie: future Prius and Volt.

We have electric motor only. ie: Tesla

What are VW, Mitsubishi, and BMW working on in this area (mentioned in a previous TTAC News blog)?

Are there any other variations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I&#8217;m confused by all the &#8220;versions&#8221; of electric powered vehicles.</p>
<p>We have the hybrid where both an ICE and an electric motor drive the wheels directly. ie: Prius and Civics.</p>
<p>We have the light hybrids where the ICE gets a small boost from an electric motor but saves very little fuel. ie: Ford Explorers and Lexus.</p>
<p>We may soon have plug in hybrids that can go much farther on their electric charge before their ICE has to go to work. ie: future Prius and Volt.</p>
<p>We have electric motor only. ie: Tesla</p>
<p>What are VW, Mitsubishi, and BMW working on in this area (mentioned in a previous TTAC News blog)?</p>
<p>Are there any other variations?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Joe ShpoilShport</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660701</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe ShpoilShport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660701</guid>
		<description>&quot;As opposed to regular cars which you can just kind of slap together?&quot;

That&#039;s funny, right there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->&#8220;As opposed to regular cars which you can just kind of slap together?&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s funny, right there.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: jerry weber</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660531</link>
		<dc:creator>jerry weber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 00:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660531</guid>
		<description>If things don&#039;t change in the Auto industry we won&#039;t have to worry about 2010 for the General. Just getting through 2009 will be a herculean task. 

You can promise for future delivery a cult or specialty car to a small rabid band of followers like a camaro, and challenger. You cannot howwever, ask the larger general public to hold off buying a car until you are ready to sell it to them, and then at a price they are unwilling to pay ($40,000+). 

It is this last reason they are hinting at govt. help. The Volt was supposed to be $30,000 and go head to head with the new prius. At 25% more, GM needs the govt to make up this 10K out of tax revenues. 

Heres another one, remember the all hydrogen car? GM was to build that one too, however, without someone (govt. again) to figure out how to fuel these things, how can GM sell them? And then there are the industrious Japanese fiddling around with imperfect hy-brids and making them a little better every year while they actually sell hundreds of thousands. The Prius will be in it&#039;s second generation before GM get&#039;s out of the blocks, and for 10K less, even if it&#039;s a little less technically advanced, it will have a solid track record of performance, reliability and a resale value higher than a new one. 

Once again, while GM is getting it right the floating crap game has moved on. At some point the catch up will just be outran by the bankrupcy courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->If things don&#8217;t change in the Auto industry we won&#8217;t have to worry about 2010 for the General. Just getting through 2009 will be a herculean task. </p>
<p>You can promise for future delivery a cult or specialty car to a small rabid band of followers like a camaro, and challenger. You cannot howwever, ask the larger general public to hold off buying a car until you are ready to sell it to them, and then at a price they are unwilling to pay ($40,000+). </p>
<p>It is this last reason they are hinting at govt. help. The Volt was supposed to be $30,000 and go head to head with the new prius. At 25% more, GM needs the govt to make up this 10K out of tax revenues. </p>
<p>Heres another one, remember the all hydrogen car? GM was to build that one too, however, without someone (govt. again) to figure out how to fuel these things, how can GM sell them? And then there are the industrious Japanese fiddling around with imperfect hy-brids and making them a little better every year while they actually sell hundreds of thousands. The Prius will be in it&#8217;s second generation before GM get&#8217;s out of the blocks, and for 10K less, even if it&#8217;s a little less technically advanced, it will have a solid track record of performance, reliability and a resale value higher than a new one. </p>
<p>Once again, while GM is getting it right the floating crap game has moved on. At some point the catch up will just be outran by the bankrupcy courts.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: amac</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660341</link>
		<dc:creator>amac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660341</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m tired of GM hinting for government handouts. They should responsible for funding their own innovation. Can&#039;t do it? Too bad! Capitalism is a two way street. Is government funding going to make a new Chevy Volt sell for under $20K? I don&#039;t think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I&#8217;m tired of GM hinting for government handouts. They should responsible for funding their own innovation. Can&#8217;t do it? Too bad! Capitalism is a two way street. Is government funding going to make a new Chevy Volt sell for under $20K? I don&#8217;t think so.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Juniper</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660282</link>
		<dc:creator>Juniper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660282</guid>
		<description>Of course Japan would never give money to their wealthy auto industry. Or would they?http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/04/with-these-prices-hybrids-will-only-be-elite-cars/
Don&#039;t forget the less than one percent loans from their banks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Of course Japan would never give money to their wealthy auto industry. Or would they?http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/04/with-these-prices-hybrids-will-only-be-elite-cars/<br />
Don&#8217;t forget the less than one percent loans from their banks.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: hughie522</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660251</link>
		<dc:creator>hughie522</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660251</guid>
		<description>Whenever I hear Detroit&#039;s automakers asking for a handout I&#039;m tempted to jump up and down and scream at the Federal government, &quot;Don&#039;t give them any money!&quot;

Keeping these bloated, dying dinosaurs alive will only ensure they continue to build poorly-built, gas-guzzing SUVs when what America really needs (I won&#039;t say &#039;want&#039; because, let&#039;s face it, we haven&#039;t been the brightest bunch in the past) is smaller, better-built and more efficient cars.

And now, not in 2010.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Whenever I hear Detroit&#8217;s automakers asking for a handout I&#8217;m tempted to jump up and down and scream at the Federal government, &#8220;Don&#8217;t give them any money!&#8221;</p>
<p>Keeping these bloated, dying dinosaurs alive will only ensure they continue to build poorly-built, gas-guzzing SUVs when what America really needs (I won&#8217;t say &#8216;want&#8217; because, let&#8217;s face it, we haven&#8217;t been the brightest bunch in the past) is smaller, better-built and more efficient cars.</p>
<p>And now, not in 2010.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: dean</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-71-ready-by-2010-now-can-we-have-our-tax-break/comment-page-1/#comment-660222</link>
		<dc:creator>dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=61271#comment-660222</guid>
		<description>The government didn&#039;t promise to put Volts in the showrooms in 2010.

The government didn&#039;t make GM fall ten years behind Toyota in hybrid development, then decide that they needed to take a monumental leap forward in technology and do it in three years.

GM needs to own their shit.  To channel a little Jim Rome: &quot;If you can&#039;t keep your ridiculously ambitious promises, stop making ridiculously ambitious promises.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->The government didn&#8217;t promise to put Volts in the showrooms in 2010.</p>
<p>The government didn&#8217;t make GM fall ten years behind Toyota in hybrid development, then decide that they needed to take a monumental leap forward in technology and do it in three years.</p>
<p>GM needs to own their shit.  To channel a little Jim Rome: &#8220;If you can&#8217;t keep your ridiculously ambitious promises, stop making ridiculously ambitious promises.&#8221;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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