And the Two Mode Hybrid is a really nice package!. The transition is seamless. I’ve driven it and the Prius and there’s no comparison. Other high end manufacturers bought in to the Allison drive, not the HSD.

Yeah. Can’t get much more high-end than Chrysler and their yet-to-be-released Aspen/Durango quasi-hybrids.

As reported here a while back, Daimler and BMW are cutting their losses on the pointlessly expensive/complex two-mode system. Only GM has real faith in it.

Actually, it’s not. It’s essentially an electric vehicle (EV) with an on-board generator (serial hybrid). That is very different than Toyota’s HSD. Not necessarily better, depending on the useage cycle and other criteria. But the demands on the batteries (to drive the vehicle all-electric for 40 miles) is no comparison to the current Prius and HSD. That’s the big challenge: the batteries.

Yes – the batteries. Actually, what GM have lined up will work fine, if they eliminated the self-regeneration part — particularly if they envision that the gas portion of the equation could be “not running for months.”

Adding all those variations on the theme is also adding a lot of weight to this vehicle. Lithium-Ion does distinguish it from the Toyota HSD, but then l-ion is proving to be quite a problem as automotive juice, not just for GM.

Again – let’s hope it works out — not holding my breath, though.

That’s my understanding. I recall reading something about it taking about 30 minutes to recharge the battery while driving, so on a long trip the engine would be running about half the time.

It’s an interesting concept. Since the engine is only running a generator, it never has to run at idle or part throttle, which is where engines are least efficient. So the inefficiencies in generating electricity and charging a battery are somewhat offset by the engine operating at peak efficiency all the time.

Is this correct? Anyone know?

The generator creates enough juice to run the car when the batteries run down. Normally, it won’t also re-charge the batteries too, because that would negate the benefit of it being plug-in (electricity is cheaper from the plug that the generator).

“the battery pack is a 1/3 the size” we are geniuses, technology has come so far along, bla bla

not because we lowered the range they forget to mention!

oops
“the range of the EV1 was 90-100 miles”
“the range of the Volt is 30-40 miles”

basically a 1/3 the size is 1/3 the energy. those engineers trying to fool the general public again.

The EV1 battery patents are owned by Texaco still. GM not bragging about that move, are they!

Considering the Federal Government matched their development cost dollar for dollar what Gm spent, and handed out huge grants to them, what does that show to us the public?

I think the Prius vs. any 4 cyl. mid-size (not just the Malibu)remains valid. It does the same job for similar bucks. The hatch is a different style but it is out-selling the vast majority of the midsizers on the market, that’s mainstream acceptance. I believe it is now outselling the Impala at retail.
It gets mis-compared a lot as a compact because of it’s overall length. But that is the packaging advantage of designing for one drivetrain (and not a V6) and going tall with the body.
Keep in mind my other point. The majority of hybrid buyer don’t pay the difference “upfront”. If the payoff on ANY hybrid is under 5 years and you are spreading the cost over a 5 year loan you are saving from day one.
This is a flaw in most “hybrids make no sense” arguments. Vehicle costs are over time for most new purchases.

BTW-The Camrys performance pushes into V6 territory (can’t see why anyone would by the Camry over the Prius, but there you have it, some do).

Hey, good talking with you.

Bunter

Is this correct? Anyone know?

Actually, it’s not. It’s essentially an electric vehicle (EV) with an on-board generator (serial hybrid). That is very different than Toyota’s HSD. Not necessarily better, depending on the useage cycle and other criteria. But the demands on the batteries (to drive the vehicle all-electric for 40 miles) is no comparison to the current Prius and HSD. That’s the big challenge: the batteries.

Sorry — I was referring to hybrid versions of existing vehicles, not the Prius (a groundup hybrid). So the $3000-$5000 premium does make a large impact (probably about $75-150/month) on a lease or a purchase over a typical term 24 to 60 months — most likely eating up the difference in getting a car that gets 24mph versus 30mph.

The Prius is also a quirky hatchback design — it’s certainly not an apples to apples comparison with the Malibu. The appropriate comparison would be a 4-cylinder Malibu (20K) versus an HSD Camry (27K).

BTW, this is the second Volt Birth Watch #36. But who’s counting?

Obviously not me. Text amended. Thanks.

RF

For that reason Reinert is probably even more correct than he realizes – the Volt will either be massively late, massively de-spec’d, or (most likely, IMHO) simply never delivered.

Judging by past performance, the managers in charge of the Volt get transferred sideways, if not retrenched. A new team takes over development of the Volt. The new team is eager to show management they know how to do things differently, with the result that a lot of non-essentials get changed. Result, when the Volt 2.0 launches, it disappoints the few hardcore supporters of Volt 1.0. Management blames [insert your favorite boogeyman here].

Compare that to the Prius: Very little hype, a standard Toyota plain vanilla vehicle, that was for the most part neither here nor there. Toyota quietly kept working on it. Every model year a bit better than the previous. And then one day, after gas hit $3/gal (those were the days, eh?) people started noticing. And they’re still paying attention.

The defining question is, will GM give up on it after the first try, or will they see the problems, and give it a second try. Like Toyota’s early hybrid attempts, there is no way this car will be perfect. GM is shooting itself in the foot by the ridiculous claims they keep making for it. It’s like a song you hear too much and eventually you grow to hate it.

Note:
‘Bu-approx 20k base price
Prius- 21k
1000 buck (OK, plus 105 or so) difference.

And they don’t pay for it “upfront”. The cost difference is spread over the finance period (why hasn’t anyone noticed this in these silly comparisons? Oh that’s right, they exist only to “prove” Prius buyers are dumb. Sorry, venting).

The interior dimensions of the Prius are nearly identical to the New ‘Bu (source CR data). It gets approx 20 MPG more.
Even if the 1000 bucks was upfront a typical 15k/yr driver will turn this in 15 month ($3/gal).

Since it is financed (usually) the savings start DAY ONE.

I agree some hybrids don’t make sense, but most of the comparisons that prove it are designed to do that and do not reflect reality.

BTW- Not dissing the ‘Bu, just had the numbers.

I think Bill Rienert’s comment stands, regardless of his employer.
For ANY car to be in the showroom in two years, much less one with so many “unknowns”, they would need to be MUUUUUUUUUUCH farther along.
The claimed schedule was impossible from day one.

Also, since Toyota ALREADY has plug in hybrid prototypes on the road (since last fall I think) I don’t think they are the ones playing catch-up.

Kixstart-Agree, GM is prepping the public for diminished expectations.

Stay groovy,

Bunter

I also try to remember that the first hybrids (insight and 1st gen Prius) pretty much sucked. By the 2nd gen Prius, Toyota had mostly got it down (Honda, not so much). I’m not expecting the Volt to be perfect, and I’m not expecting them to hit every target they want to hit. But I am expecting a revolutionary vehicle that sets the stage for bigger and better things in subsequent generations.

If they can do that, they deserve kudos. New technology will never be exactly worked out in the 1st stab. Doesn’t mean I’ll take a car that doesn’t run, or needs reboots, or strands me or falls apart or costs way too much. But I am willing to overlook some shortcomings in order to gain the advantages. I don’t care for the Prius myself, but I have to respect what this car has done, and how well Toyota has improved their technology since 1997. I don’t dismiss HSD simply because the first car it came on kinda sucked. I won’t do the same for the Volt either. Let us also not forget Toyota and Honda sold almost nothing of the first Prius and Insight. It wasnt until gen 2 that the Prius really took off.

There is no technology advantage these days — only intellectual property rights. There is nothing about a Prius (or Hybrid Synergy Drive tech) that GM (or any automaker) does not know, or could not replicate tomorrow. Automakers immediately buy, strip, and analyze competitive products. Automakers also use the SAME suppliers for all sorts of componentry, also negating a technology gap.

Toyota has only an edge in perception of hybrid technology — and the fact that HSD has actually been implemented in select vehicles. However, HSD does add alot to the upfront cost of your Lexus SUV, and only delivering perhaps 30% better overall economy.

It is obvious given the slow sales of most hybrids that Americans would rather eat the rising cost of gasoline incrementally — rather than pay at least $3,000 upfront for a hybrid.

Mr. Lickanger,

Please elaborate. Define ‘very efficient fuel cell hybrid.’ Throw some facts out here. The GM is, I beleive, on an Equinox platform, also a 5 seater.

And the Two Mode Hybrid is a really nice package!. The transition is seamless. I’ve driven it and the Prius and there’s no comparison. Other high end manufacturers bought in to the Allison drive, not the HSD.

For Toyota it will hurt if GM launch the car by 2010. So, expect comments of that style until launch… and then the “flowers”, this time from every corner of the web/mags/competition etc…

It will hurt GM if the Volt is not delivered on time, and if it’s nothing short of perfection. Given that there is SO much ridiculous hype around the Volt, the production Volt needs to be next-to-perfect in order to meet the hype.

And what triumph exactly will the Japanese claim? Toyota can already convincingly claim hybrid technology superiority right now.

Considering that said “japs” are well ahead of GM in hybrid technology (and pretty much every other technology as well) copying GM would be taking a step backwards.

I truly expect they deliver the car by 2010. I think the time they have for a NEW technology is very short… but expect they do it. I hope also that it works well, if not, the japs will copy and debug it in 2 years and claim as own triumph.

For Toyota it will hurt if GM launch the car by 2010. So, expect comments of that style until launch… and then the “flowers”, this time from every corner of the web/mags/competition etc…

And I’m sure Toyota is working on building it’s own right now to answer the Volt when it’s launched. They have the cubic $$$ to make it happen.

Just want to point out that Toyota haven’t put all their eggs in HSD. They have developed a very efficient fuel-cell hybrid which completed the Osaka to Tokyo trip on one tank of hydrogen. A five seater SUV, in fact.
And they are working on plug-in hybrids and pure EVs. Remind me again, what’s cutting edge about the Volt? It’s just a variation on HSD, with some actual unnecessaries added.

Not a point.

It’s an opinion.

From a competitior who put all THEIR eggs in a “Synergy” badged basket. You can pick the carpet at the same time you pick the drapes.

Regenerative braking?

“Not 100% efficient.”

Puleeeze! Name something in autos that IS 100% efficient!

It’s still recovering lost energy, whatever the %. It would be lost otherwise, right?
It sounds like they’re defining exactly WHERE the energy will come from. Not lowering the target.

It’s about time that a U.S. manufacturer is on the cusp of a new product technology, and all it gets is skepticism. Believe me, I understand the past history of miscues and failures.

I also remember the Datsun HoneyBee, and the Toyota “3/4 ton” mini truck, and the Honda 600.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_8uF8QKfeI