http://jalopnik.com/5261006/toyota-hybrid-breaks-down-towed-off-track-before-nascar-event

However don’t let the fact that the Prius is not an electric car, in the pure sense, shield you from realizing the huge advantage of having a partially decoupled engine on the powertrain of a vehicle. I would advise you not to get hung up on the battery but concentrate that you have an engine which is always in the right gear. Close to lugging when cruising but able to soar, freed from the inertia of the vehicle, to redline at a moments notice. With conventional powertrains the engine is handicapped by having to drag the whole vehicle along with it as it strives to reach maximum power at redline.

It’s just the battery technology isn’t here yet for a viable electric-only car
I beg to disagree and somewhere in the desert lay 300 crushed EV1’s to prove it. It wasn’t that the battery packs weren’t up to the task. It was just the mind of a man that wasn’t up to it. A man who was recently relieved of his post by the President of the United States if I recall.

Needless to say, a 120 mile range 2 seater that plugs in at home won’t suit 100% of the population. That’s right. Perhaps only 85% to 90% could be satisfied. But that 85% to 90% still have the option to ‘day rent’ a more versatile gasoline powered vehicle when needed.
T2

“but doesn’t this eventually revolve around the fact that a plug in electric never requires you to visit the gas station except to pump up your tyres?

you avoid the whole petro-cycle (and the taxes)”

For now it does.
The feds and several states are still looking into taxing by the mile to recover losses from higher efficiency cars. Also if the cap and trade idea goes into effect a plug in car may not save you as much unless you generate your own electricity.

Imagine my surprise to read a “Golf Cart” related rant from the usual suspect.

To-wit (twit?); even the slightest sniff of possible economic stabilisation has the oil price climbing.

Let’s see…

Check a link… Toyota claims their approach is superior. Yep, I said they’d done so.

Check a link… Toyota claims their approach is superior. Yep, I said they’d done so.

Check a link… Toyota claims their approach is superior. Yep, I said they’d done so.

So, where did Toyota diss the Volt?

Now, let’s remember that there’s ample opportunity to laugh at GM for the idea that a compact car will sell for $40K (GM agrees, which is why they went running for a massive tax credit), that their first year of production is a pitiful 10K units and that GM won’t actually own the key enabling technology; they’re just buying giant pallets of “D” cells from LG, as can anyone with cash in hand. Toyota could even point out that GM’s current hybrids are the marketplace losers: amazingly expensive to develop, ridiculously expensive to build, prohibitively expensive to buy and selling in microscopic quantities (Oh, yeah, I believe GM can develop leapfrog tech and I believe in the Tooth Fairy).

Now, if they’d done anything like that, I’d say, sure, Toyota’s dissing GM’s toy car. Sorry… future toy car.

But, Toyota simply pointed out, in appropriate venues, and with specific reasons, that they had faith in their approach. And, based on cost, profitability and unit volume, I’d say they’re on to something.

Maybe next time try googling the subject. Anyone else hear those bells ringing? Let me know if you need help with that one.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/06/toyota-takes-a-shot-at-chevy-volt/

http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/848.html

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/24/toyotas-irv-miller-jumps-into-series-parallel-debate-again-now/

GM could still do that. US Car sales are still something like 10 million per year… hybrids are in the neighborhood of 3% of that. GM could give up this one piece of the market, tactically, as long as they developed compelling product for the rest.

Well, I used to think GM could still do that. Maybe it’s entirely too late for GM.

—

RogerB34,

Xerox made a market by building an inexpensive photocopy process.

Can GM build a market by making a far more expensive car?

GM is/was hoping that all the money they spent developing the Volt would be parlayed into Government ‘green’ funding, tax credits, and a huge publicity campaign…

Shit, imagine if GM was able to ignore the Prius green onslaught and pour the cash they’ve used on Volt on to the rest of their line up or to buy out dealers or to this or to that. Toyota can laugh at GM for this or for that because they know regardless of what happens now the overall damage to the industry brought on by the hybrid rage will be long lasting.

Hybrids are essentially the free soda refill campaign started by Taco Bell that the whole rest of the restaurant biz has lost billions because of.

Got a link to a direct quote to that effect?

I doubt it.

You might have a link to a quote by Lutz whining saying that Toyota had dissed their car but you’ll find no such quote from Toyota itself. Lutz was exaggerating. To say the least.

Toyota has, on a couple of occasions, remarked that they don’t think the economics are there for an RE-EV, so they’re not doing it. Something wrong with that? One of their CEO’s jobs, for instance, is to reassure their stockholders and stakeholders that they have a sound plan for the future. Avoiding uneconomic cars would be part of a sound plan, wouldn’t it?

Considering that Toyota took a big gamble with hybrids, starting back in 1995 and that it’s paying off with sales, respect and profits, I’d say their reassurances to their stockholders and stakeholders are quite reasonable and that Toyota is very credible.

On the other hand, Maximum Bob himself has said that GM won’t make any money on the Volt “for years.” Now, there is a sound business plan. Lose money on a car that gives you no appreciable marketing or technology edge! Sign me up for some of that new-issue GM stock!

you avoid the whole petro-cycle (and the taxes)

Toyota won by being a better car company over the past 30 years, not by selling a bunch of goofy golf carts in the middle of a gas price frenzy.

Hybrids never did make sense, except for one brief shining moment which will likely not be repeated for many years to come.

Oh dear indeed. That $40k Volt is starting to sound like wishful thinking. Is there time time to stick a “Crest and Wreath” on it? The world needs an extended range electric Cadillac. Of course, it needs a name… I think Cimarron sounds about right.

Lithium-ion batteries, above 100F, can’t be charged without damaging the battery. Thus the battery needs special cooling to make sure it doesn’t run hot.

LiFeP doesn’t have this problem, but it doesn’t have the energy density of LiIon.

With an 80 hp! electric motor, which is before the CVT transmission (Gasoline clutch motor/generator CVT Wheels), the new Prius is a very credible car in electric-only mode.

Its just the battery technology isn’t here yet for a viable electric-only car.

If anything, the 2010 Prius is the first “future proof” car: if battery technology improves, it becomes a real extended-range electric car, but unlike the Volt, it doesn’t rely on the battery technology arriving to be economically viable.

I would hope that the automotive batteries are designed with long life and cold-weather performance in mind. There were some rumors that GM was going to deal with potential short battery life by pricing two batteries (the first and the warranty replacement) into the price of the car. This talk has subsided but leaves one suspicious.

Also, I can’t help but notice that my laptop battery, nominally a 3 hour battery and originally good for 2.5 hours, is now a 55 minute battery after only 1.5 years and relatively infrequent use away from the dock.

Thanks for the great analysis. Very well put that even in the best case, GM could get sideswiped by faster, more agile companies when the right battery appears. I imagine it would be like IBM and the PC. Clones overtook the PC very quickly.

The VOLT has capable people on its team like Denise Gray, for instance, but the project is the result of flawed thinking from management as has been raised by several other commenters at TTAC as well as myself.

But GM isn’t the only company at fault, I would like to see Bill go after the Honda Insight as well. Answer me this, if that integrated motor assist (IMA) model works so well why do they have to fit a 1.3L engine which somewhat slants the deck ?

I am sure that if the non-hybrid Honda Civic was given such an engine instead of the 1.8L it is currently overpowered with, then it would be getting outstanding mileage also. Just sayin’.

I might mention that I have been involved with EV’s for more than 30 yrs in one way or another. Time enough to have to have drawn conclusions on these types of hybrid.

That leaves the Prius. I know what some of you may be thinking. He’s not going to attack the Prius, is he ? Well, Yes HE is.

Is it just me or is the Prius just too damn elaborate for its own good ? With a new 1.8L engine on board there’s plenty of power. I say time to ditch that NiMH battery overboard.

Look, the Prius is not an electric car. Never was, never is. It’s all about being an electric transmission. Unfortunately some pricks, you know who they are, those deviants down in Davis, So. Cal. who can’t leave well enough alone. Can’t design their own electric vehicle but still not stopping them from trying to make the Prius into one with all their effing PHEV nonsense. That has to be the wrong way. We don’t need more battery, we need less. Doesn’t this thing cost enough already ?

It just happens that if we look to the future, it is entirely possible to go battery-less with the Toyota HSD system or ‘virtual battery’ as I call it. Let’s slow down a bit here, so I don’t lose anybody, but obviously the main hi-voltage DC bus on the Prius, in the absence of a high voltage battery, will still need to be “defibrillated” occasionally from some other power source so that the generator can switch its role to motoring in order to start a stationary engine. To do that you just need some black box device connected to the existing 12volt battery. Problem solved.

Sure the idea is merely vaporware right now, but such a system could have the potential to reduce the hybrid premium to zero. It’s too bad I have to end on a down note here. Just seems like Toyota has been able to halt spending on hybrid development while they are surrounded by such pathetic competition at the moment. That’s all I’ve got.
T2