In fact, it’s good that the gas engine does not recharge the batteries because then you would be using gasoline to charge them instead of grid power. The cost per kWh using the engine to recharge is much more than the cost per kWh using grid electricity. So, why would you want the engine to kick on to charge your batteries when you’re only 10 miles from your house (where you can charge it for much less $$)? What they don’t say is that the gas engine is sized so that, when acting as a generator, the car will still have full power to accelerate, climb hills, etc. I believe it can actually dip into the battery reserve for sudden bursts of power if needed. The batteries are never allowed to fully discharge anyway. The will only be discharged to 30%. That’s the only way to make then survive for >100K miles. Unlike NiCd batteries, Li batteries don’t like a full charge or a full discharge. So, the engine “maintains” battery levels at 30% of charge once you’ve driven 40 miles. It will still “charge” the batteries during regenerative breaking, etc and dip into that 30% for short bursts, it just won’t waste any more gasoline than necessary to move the car around between plug in points. I think it’s supposed to still get over 50 mpg when the gasoline engine is running as an alternator and the battery is discharged to the minimum level (30%).

It may seem unconventional compared to a parallel hybrid (this is a SERIES hybrid), but will probably save the consumer the most money.

It will be profitable to install the infrastructure when there are enough EV users. There will be enough EV users when there is enough infrastructure.

Unless the government gets involved, infrastructure will never get built.

We already have the infrastructure of EV’s. It’s called the power grid.

It will be profitable to install the infrastructure when there are enough EV users. There will be enough EV users when there is enough infrastructure.

Unless the government gets involved, infrastructure will never get built.

And, you’re still comparing the Volt to a typical car, which is still a faulty comparison. The math versus a typical car is how you decide if you need a more fuel efficient vehicle, not how you decide if you need a Volt. If the Volt is to be a viable option, it needs to compete with, and preferably be superior to, the Prius, the TDI, and similar options.

Regen only gives you back some fraction of what you use up in accelerating, which is a rather small portion of the energy that would be used on a 40-mile electric round trip.

150hp for 10 seconds = (150 x 746 /1000 /60 /6) = 0.31 kilowatt-hours

200 watt-hours per mile (a generous guess for a car as big as the Volt) x 40 miles = 8 kilowatt-hours

Let’s use the 1/6th figure for the cost of energy I have been seeing in the EV enthusiast websites. $40K purchase price – $7.5K tax break + $5K residual value + $4300 for electricity for 200K miles = $41,800 to drive a Volt 200K miles. Up the resale residual $2K and the TCO drops the same $2K.

Up gasoline to $5.75 per gallon b/c we are talking about a twelve year period where gasoline is always increasing in cost and the cost to operate the 28 mpg vehicle is $41,000 alone.

Anybody got some easy percentages for how much more gasoline costs now compared to 12 years ago?

The RAV4-EV has gone UP in value. The oldest Rav4-EVs now have over 150,000 miles on their original NiMH batteries and GM would like us to believe that Li-Ion is a superior battery.

I doubt the Volt would ever increase in value but I expect however it would be worth more than $5K unless this is another Vega/Corvair/Olds98 diesel.

Something to consider – how well do GM’s $40K Caddilacs, $40K SUVs, and $40K Corvettes hold their values?

If I can help it – no, I’d drive it as solely an EV. Yes, I’d rather have a pure EV.

Look up the Phoenix Motor Cars SUT. That would serve my needs fine.

I have an older ICE powered car (11 yrs old) that literally has not been out of the county we live in since cold weather last winter when I drove it to the next town 30 miles away. FWIW that means the car has no been further than ~20 miles or so from my house since last winter.

When we travel outside of the county we take our primary car which gets ~26 mpg. My second car gets with my lead foot about ~28-29 mpg most of the time. That’s where the 28 mpg came from in my numbers.

I realize some of you live in large metropolitan areas where you cross multiple counties to get home. Maybe you live in the middle states where a 50 mile drive only gets you to the grocery. A big “your mileage may vary” for you from me.

My main point was to say – this car is not the solution for everyone’s expectations but it will be a good solution for alot of people.

Probably more people than will consider would be well served by a car like the Volt unless gas spikes over $5. I got a little heated this morning reading some of the naysayer comments who may have been trolling for controversy or maybe really couldn’t see how a car like this would ever be useful for a person and thus believe it would immediately fail to sell.

I want America’s daily driver fleet to EVOLVE. Constant belittling of alternatives or the belief that a single vehicle must meet the expectations of all people and all occasions leaves us driving Suburbans or Expeditions or minivans. Again those big vehicle may be what you NEED but I’d like to see the American drivers rediscover Miatas, MR2s, real compacts where compacts are useful.

What about the need for a second car? Are you never, ever, EVER going to go more than 40 miles? Your vacations will be to the mall I guess.

I live in small town and the mall has gone broke – we might thank three Wal-marts within a 30 minute drive for that one. That said, I’m not a fan of malls so no I wouldn’t go there for anything – shopping or entertainment. The movie theater is down the road a bit or there is a good drive-in 20 miles from home.

No we’ve only taken our second car on vacation once. Way back when we only had one child. It would be possible now but our luggage would have to ride in a trailer. Not unappealing but we’d likely choose the slightly larger CR-V for those trips.

I grew up in the 80s when folks had Mom’s big wagon or Minivan, and Dad drove a Celica or Corolla. Maybe that is where the disconnect is for me. Maybe in places different from mine people actually operate two large vehicles. A big minivan for Mom and a big pickup for Dad. I dunno.

That’s not really how the people I know do it but it would explain the fair number of large vehicles I see with one person on board.

Your calculations are comparing a Volt to a regular ICE car (much less a Prius). I guess comparing it to, oh say, a car of comparable fuel economy is just unfair now.

Yes, I could choose to compare the Volt to a Prius or a Sherman tank or an SUV or the HMS Queen Mary.

I just picked an average mileage vehicle to show how close the numbers work out. I could choose the 55 mpg VW Jetta TDI or the Prius too I suppose but I’ll let you do the math for your needs. I think 28 mpg was a fair number to use as the American fleet average is lower by a bit. The 2004 requirement was 27 mpg.

I might not consider a Volt after a Prius but I certainly would consider a Volt after a mere mortal car’s gas mileage.

The point is with a gasoline car you have to buy the vehicle and then the gasoline forever. If you choose to drive that vehicle two years and trade to something newer, you are still buying gasoline. If you drive for 80 years of your life that is 80 years of gasoline. That’s $123,500 worth of gasoline in a lifetime at 12K miles per year, 28 mpg, $3.60 per gallon. Doesn’t take into account the rise of gasoline of course.

I came up with either ~$180 or ~$500 worth of electricity per year or $40K worth of power for a lifetime. Another way would be to say that an electric costs 1/6th as much to drive gas compared to electricity according to some EV sites I have read. That would be $20,600 over a lifetime. I don’t know about you but if the numbers were real I’d rather pay off my mortgage and then travel Europe and America in my ICE powered first car with the savings.

To simplify the math I just imagined that a consumer actually kept it 200,000 miles. I will keep mine though I expect that the average person might trade or buy another at ~125K miles causing higher overall TOC.

I felt like 200K miles was a pretty low TOC because the person got more miles out of their vehicle before they bought something newer and had to absorb depreciation again. That is to say that a vehicle depreciates the first 100K miles of ownership more than the second in my mind. An example is a Ford Taurus-X I recently heard a someone mention for $5K with under 100K miles. So it lost $15K the first 100K miles and only has another $5K to depreciate no matter how many miles the next guy drives it.

We could run the numbers again. $20K vehicle driven for 200K miles worth $5K at the end, I am being generous here. So it has a $15K cost to purchase/sell, $25,700 worth of gasoline for that same 200K miles for a total cost of $40,700.

For the Volt that would be original purchase price of $40K – $7500 tax break, 12 years of $500 electricity, and let’s make up a residual value of $5K working out to $40K – $7.5K + $5K + $6K = $43,500 total operating costs.

Again that really makes some huge assumptions. Will the battery or the car last 200,000 miles? Could the car have a higher residual value? The RAV4-EV has gone UP in value. I doubt the Volt would. I expect however it would be worth more than $5K.

Especially if updated battery technology could be installed at a later date for a reasonable cost giving it more life and more range per charge.

I am also assuming that GM won’t still be heavily discounting their vehicles after just the first year. Imagine another $5K off because GM still can’t move the metal? An additional $10K in savings (resale, lower price new).

In fact imagine buying a used one with some of the depreciation paid by the first driver. Starting to look really good now. Approaching the value of a Toyota Prius AND you potentially aren’t sending any of your greenbacks to big oil ever especially if some better battery like a NiMH arrived on the scene (important to me to minimize the big oil drain on my budget).

Finally, all of you claiming that those who do not have the infrastructure should not buy one clearly must work for GM, as you have the same lack of foresight as Rickie and the Boyz. Anybody can buy a Prius without worrying about the infrastructure to support it at home. The proverbial “poor” college students and the lower and middle income families in America who can not buy a house would love a economical car like the Volt. I guess that they are not “rich” enough to enjoy such a luxury…..

Capitalism will provide infrastructure whenever the owner sees big enough savings to justify installing it wher they are or when some proprietor sees an opportunity to install it for profit.

I like the coming choices. Question is will any of us be able to afford it. Tough launching a new product into a recession.

Sorry if all of the numbers give you a headache. I didn’t even want to go back and check my spelling.

I’m sure you remember joeaverage mentioning he has two cars already. I’ll say what I said earlier a slightly different way: I will buy a Volt as a second car if the costs work out to my advantage – and the fact that it might only burn 1 gallon of gas per year with my usage pattern is already a big point in its favor. And that is always going to be compared to a car of similar fuel economy.

Finally, all those college students, apartment dwellers and lower/middle income people unable to buy an economical Volt should continue to cry because (should their requirements dictate) they also cannot afford a massive 8-passenger vehicle. Hell, many people would love to buy an economical Prius but they can’t because they realize in many cases it costs more than a traditional Civic, Corolla, Yaris, etc and/or they just plain cannot afford it with or without dealer premiums.

blindfaith: exactly. What about all those poor, poor people living in mountainous areas? The Volt just will not work for them! The Volt is teh sux0r! QED

Well the man returned and stated, I only get 14 mpg and can make maybe 55 miles an hour tell I get to down hill.

Well “joe” you better go to LA and sell it in “LA-La land”. Or, go only down hill “Joe”

, all of you claiming that those who do not have the infrastructure should not buy one clearly must work for GM, as you have the same lack of foresight as Rickie and the Boyz.

Nice try at an insult, but I’ve worked at lots of small companies, and sold millions of dollars worth of stuff.

The very first thing to do when someone asks “can your product do something vastly out of line with what our product is doing?” is to say “no, but you might try using X or Y instead. If we could help you in the future, though, please contact us.”

Trying to be all things to all people is how you fail.

What about the need for a second car? Are you never, ever, EVER going to go more than 40 miles? Your vacations will be to the mall I guess.

Your calculations are comparing a Volt to a regular ICE car (much less a Prius). I guess comparing it to, oh say, a car of comparable fuel economy is just unfair now.

Finally, all of you claiming that those who do not have the infrastructure should not buy one clearly must work for GM, as you have the same lack of foresight as Rickie and the Boyz. Anybody can buy a Prius without worrying about the infrastructure to support it at home. The proverbial “poor” college students and the lower and middle income families in America who can not buy a house would love a economical car like the Volt. I guess that they are not “rich” enough to enjoy such a luxury…..

As to the price you keep bringing up: that is why most of us are having this conversation and trying to wrap our heads around how this car works. You cannot just dismiss the vehicle because it may cost $40,000 to start. joeaverage’s figures are a basic example where a large subsidy could make the Volt viable immediately. Assuming the car is produced for more than 2 years then the price will likely drop below $40,000.

Most of us want to know how the Volt works and how it could fit into our lifestyle. $40,000 for a 2nd car is insane for my family. But if that 2nd car is a Volt burning one tank of gas PER YEAR then I am interested in the cost calculus and what MSRP vs gas price I should wait for.

Once you get out of the five burroughs there is a huge country out there where people pay for their own utilities and have their own garages. And I guarantee you will start seeing standard 110 and 220 outlets appearing near public parking spots that use locking covers, coin-op activation, or some other cost tracking/reducing measure. All those EV1 connectors were wasted on 1,100 cars while GM hopes to produce 10 times that the first year.

Seriously.

That way, apartment dwellers or people who are traveling away from home can charge their electric vehicles.

I say this because I’ve been to Fargo, North Dakota.

What’s that got to do with electric vehicles?

Simple.

Winter in Fargo and other American Frozen Tundra cities means they already have plug-ins all over town so that shoppers and residents can plug in their vehicles’ block heaters during winter.

One pulls up to the Piggly Wiggly, pulls into a spot, hops out, grabs the cord that hangs out of the car’s grille, plugs it into the post-outlet, hops the snowbank and goes inside to get groceries. Upon return to the car after shopping, it’ll A) start, B) be toasty warm inside.

If Fargo can do it, one might imagine the plug-in post will someday be in New York, Chicago, Seattle, Houston….

The free market will figure out the right answer, but I’m betting the short-term solution for parking garages will be to have un-metered outlets that only get juice from, say, 10pm to 8am. Or whenever rates are cheap in your town.

Running extra conduit isn’t like nuclear physics.

OH C’MON! If this car threatens your individuality somehow or you believe WE-MUST-KEEP-BURNING-GASOLINE or or you just don’t like it then say so!

Damn – c’mon this same argument could be used at several points in history. We could roll the clock back and argue about indoor plumbing, apartments with electricity or air conditioning or ethernet pre-installed in them.

Who pays for it? The renter of course. Whether they pay hundreds of dollars upfront for a reserved parking space and a 220V outlet with a lock on it, or if they pay an extra $20 per month hidden in their rent – the renter will pay for it.

If the concept of a plugin car is popular then you’ll see outlets at restaurants, apartments, office buildings, schools, or installed curbside and that look like parking meters with a credit card reader. It will be a new way that these businesses use to attract customers. Only their accountants will really know how much this costs them compared to the added business.

My family already eats at restaurants where kids eat free. They still make money off of us I’m sure. We think ahead to who has the best meal for the best price. Best price = kids eat free generally.

If these vehicles aren’t popular then the people who can best take advantage of them will be the people who buy them. These will be people with driveways, garages and who can easily have 220V installed close to their parking space.

What worries me is that some comments after this article is may indicate that America has lost it’s imagination or it’s will to achieve more than we have right now.

How many Americans are like this?

Think outside of the box!

This isn’t a personal attack on anyone but encouragement to use your imagination. I expect my grandmother to look at my Nokia N810 handheld computer and ask “what does a person use that for” and then walk away with a bit of new knowledge she’ll never use or consider again.

I think of TTAC as a thinking man’s (or woman’s) place of automobile discussion. Let’s up the ante here a little.

Bob Lutz said this:
“with the Volt, you never have to worry you use the full 40 (mile range), the worst thing that happens is the gasoline engine comes on, and the car will know how far you are from home, and it will only run the gas engine long enough to give you enough charge to get you home where you can actually plug it into the wall outlet. So the car will be smart enough to know where its home base is.”

That quote makes NO sense if the ICE doesn’t charge the batteries. If you get 40 miles and then the ICE stays on for the rest of the trip, what is the point of having the car know where “home base” is?

I think we are seeing the effects of the inevitable internal battle between the suits, techs, and bean counters. The techs would give us a car that made sense but cost GM much more than 40k to make, the bean counters would give us a car that barely did what we want and still cost us 40k, and the suits would promise the car that does it all and get upset when the techs and bean counters gang up on them and tell them “no”.

As far as plugging it in goes, look at what they are doing in London for the plug-in Prius. There is a meter for charging just like there is a meter for the parking space.

Oh boy, do I ever hear that. I’d be cruising fine with a Volt right now, but gas shortages have made hunting gas down a nightmare.

What about colleges students that live on campus?

They shouldn’t get a Volt.

What about the guy/gal that decided to stay over night at a friends home?

They use the gas tank.

What about the group of friends cruising the town all night long? Will the still enjoy driving the Volt after the battery is depleted?

They shouldn’t get a Volt.

What about all of the apartemnt dwellers?

They shouldn’t get a Volt if they don’t have outlets.

What about the family with a single car garage and a narrow driveway and more than one existing vehicle?

They shouldn’t get a Volt.

The Volt isn’t supposed to be all things to all people. This is America; we have a very pluralistic society and the free market gives very different products to very different people.

The Volt will start out as being for commuting adults who want to give the gas station a big middle finger. If the price comes down, it’ll be for normal commuters who have access to electrical outlets at their residence OR workplace.

Buy a house. Drive a Prius. Lots of convenience in living in rental properties but plenty of short comings.

Where does an apartment dweller put their rat-rod? Their weekend amateur racing car? Where do they work on their car? What if they like to sunbathe in the nude? What are they supposed to do?

The Chevy Volt (or any plugin car) is not for everyone including Eskimos, people who living in rural jungle conditions, people who ford rivers to get to work, and people who need autobahn speeds.

No worries about the kids nagging me for convenience store nutritional goodness.

No worries about car jacking. No worries about price spikes. I can make my own electricity if I feel so inclined eliminating power outage worries. Of course on those rare, rare occasions that the power does stay off all night, I’ll just drive my ‘78 VW Westfalia ICE powered van. It gets almost no miles these days and a quick drive to work would prob do it well.

A 28 mpg vehicle for 200K miles at $3.60 is $25,700 worth of gas. On top of that you have to buy the vehicle. Let’s figure another $18K. $43,700 total.

Or you could buy a plugin (or better yet a full EV) for $40,000 – $7500 in tax credits = $32,500 and $500 per year in electricity. Let’s see it’s taking us 12 years to go 200K miles at my house in one of the cars. That’s $6,000 dent against the Volt.

Sure the price advantage is still there with the $18K ICE (by a little bit) car but as the Prius proved there are plenty of people for whom a cost premium to lower their gasoline consumption (less $$$ to big oil) is important.

If the cost of gasoline should go up another 75 cents and there is ample evidence to suggest that it is possible, then the cost margin deceases. When the Koreans or Japanese release their $27K version then the price difference will decrease again.

The price difference disappears again if the buyer is moving from an 18 mpg minivan or SUV.

The big question is will the battery last 200K miles? Will the car itself last 200K miles?

Well, Detroit keeps telling us that their quality is equal or better to the Asian’s quality. No, I don’t believe it either yet. Time will tell. No JD Powers survey will.

I don’t dislike the plugin hybrids. They are the right step for the non-enthusiasts but I’d prefer to do away with the whole ICE system and have a straight EV with a ~100 mile range.

Here in lies the problem! IF they made these two version why on earth would anyone buy the more expensive one?

In all honesty I believe Toyota already worked out these issues and that is why the Prius is what it is. For the way we actually live, work, and play with our cars the ICE does do somethings much better than an eletric motor can. Fill-up time: 5 minutes, Charge time: 5 hours!

For the same reasons there are many high-end critical electircal devices that still run on good ole disposable batteries and not internal rechargeable ones. Sometimes you can NOT wait for a full charge.

Unlike the what the Volt might be, the Prius is a SELF-CONTAINED appliance. In its current form the drivetrain does allow you a great degree of flexibility. In a rush, drive fast and burn some gas. Not in a rush, take it easy and save a geat deal of gas. Load it up full of stuff and you still have a real car with a gas ICE connected to a CVT. Take a long road trip, OK.

The whole premise of the Volt assumes that you will go home every night and plug in. STUPID!

-What about colleges students that live on campus?

-What about the guy/gal that decided to stay over night at a friends home?

-What about the group of friends cruising the town all night long? Will the still enjoy driving the Volt after the battery is depleted?

-What about all of the apartemnt dwellers? From a building owner’s perspective electricity os NOT cheap. Do you actually think they will care enough to install metered outlets in the garage or OUTSIDE parking lot? Who will pay for the extra infrastructure?

-What about the family with a single car garage and a narrow driveway and more than one existing vehicle? Are they going to run 20′, 30′ feet of electric cord down the driveway or are they going to play “musical cars” everyday?

These situations and many more like them are REAL and need to be considered before GM dumps a over-priced, half-a$$ed product on the market that will only be embarassed by the next gen Prius, FURTHER hurting GM preception standings.

IF GM wants the Volt to be a success they really need to pull a page from Toyota’s playbook and learn how to balance a car design with the real actual needs and desires of the people they want to buy it. Look at who people actually use their cars and stop creating silly fictious senerios about how the car CAN be used!

As I stated back then: I see a problem: how well is a 53 kW [71 hp] generator going to drive a 120 kW [160 hp] motor (before even allowing for all the intermittent losses)?

Maybe that’s how the Volt gets 50 mpg after running down the battery: the generator will limit the top speed to 40 mph! Assuming 53 kW could propel all that battery weight as fast as 40 mph.
Better not stop at the foot of a hill once the battery is depleted…

Johnny Liebermann, are you familiar with The Hydrogen Hoax? Hydrogen (basically a battery that leaks and explodes) is not going to happen. Get used to it.

@Jonny The fuel cell will be supplied by hydrogen created by the ICE in combination with the generator and the battery using an onboard resevoir of GM executives’ tears.

patent please!