United Auto Workers’ (UAW) boss Big Ron Gettelfinger pops his head above the PR parapet every now and again to defend his members’ right to the wages and benefits that they’ve negotiated from Detroit’s failing automakers. But in the main, the UAW’s Big Cheese remains tight-lipped about the finer points of the union’s contract, strategy, golf course, JOBS bank, election process, internal dissent, balloting procedures, etc. (not to mention embezzlement and corruption). So when The Detroit News offered Ronny G unedited space within their precious pages, you’d hardly expect anything other than broad strokes (so to speak). You know: Wall Street vs. Main Street, investing in America; that sort of thing. One exception: Ron takes on the “myth” that UAW work rules rule the rotting roost. “According to the Harbour Report — the standard for measuring auto plant productivity — all 10 of the most efficient plants in North America are union plants. Union workers get the job done in less hours per vehicle than the competition. For example, according to 2008 Harbour data, it takes UAW members in Kansas City just over 19 hours to assemble a Ford F-series pick-up. It takes more than 32 hours to assemble the Toyota Tundra, a similar vehicle, at a non-union plant in Princeton, Indiana.”
I’ll leave it to TTAC’s Best and Brightest to deconstruct that argument. But it’s not bad. Nor can you fault the gist of this: “Cutting wages for middle class workers, for example, won’t do any good for the American economy — and it doesn’t do much for automakers, either, since labor costs are just 10 percent of the price of a vehicle.”
But then there’s this: “Instead, we need a strong stimulus plan — like the one planned by President-elect Barack Obama.”
And Ron concludes with this: “[Recovery] requires sound policies on incomes, trade and health care that will support working families — and renew the U.S. economy.”
Hang on fiscal conservatives and free marketeers; this is going to get rough. The rest of you: get ready to party like it’s 1999.
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Sound like the UAW talking in barely traceable circles of double speak – again.
In summary- even though Ford makes the F150 in 19 hrs and Toyota makes the Tundra in 32hrs, the labor cost is about $1369 for Ford and $1408 for Toyota if you use the currently accepted labor rates for each. I love the way the Big 3 and the UAW throw labor numbers around.
“[Recovery] requires sound policies on incomes, trade and health care that will support working families — and renew the U.S. economy.”
Health care for working families! That is commie-pinkoism! Then next thing that will happen is they’ll come for my guns!
Really, it is must better to give a couple o’ trillion more to those highly successful car company and bank CEOs and let them sort everything out. They know better than anybody how to solve America’s problems. They were all caused by Clnton anyway.
For example, according to 2008 Harbour data, it takes UAW members in Kansas City just over 19 hours to assemble a Ford F-series pick-up. It takes more than 32 hours to assemble the Toyota Tundra, a similar vehicle, at a non-union plant in Princeton, Indiana.
That doesn’t jibe at all with the Harbour Report summaries I’ve read, which still show Toyota to be the most productive (but all manufacturers are close together).
I believe the discrepancy between the F-Series and Tundra assembly times is because the F-Series uses more pre-assembled parts from suppliers, so in reality Ford is just passing some of the assembly work to others (does anyone really believe the Tundra takes 13 more hours to assemble than an F-Series??).
The UAW motto: “That’s good enough, pass it along”. Finally, we get someone at the UAW to tell us why their quality is so bad. One level up from a Russian assembly plant, where they adjust door hinges with a 2×4. But boy, do they achieve throughput-if that’s all that matters.
He is barking up the wrong tree. The problem is not the UAW worker tightening bolts on a F-150. It is the 3 others getting 90% pay for sitting on their butts doing nothing.
Union workers get the job done in less hours per vehicle than the competition.
That helps explain how the bolt that held the dash of my Expedition to the firewall got cross theaded. Took the dealer about 8 visits and a couple of months to figure out what was causing the very loud annoying squeak in my truck. The 6 other dealer visits during the 2 years I owned it were just due to the crappy parts they used to build it and not due to production speed.
Canucknucklehead – if we adopted the Canadian healthcare model, where would you guys go when you needed surgery?
Americans know how to solve America’s problems – the 300 million of us making our own individual decisions will reach solutions far more efficiently than 600 or so blowhards in Washington DC. Most of us just want to keep our trillions of dollars and figure out ourselves.
Good observations by redrum and Blobinski.
Embezzlement and corruption? The UAW purchased millions of dollars worth of politicians to steal thousands of dollars from each of us taxpayers…There is no difference between the UAW and a street mugger except the street mugger is courageous enough to do his own stealing and doesn’t vote for thieves to steal for him.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics…
Like most mythology about numbers, all you have to do is scratch the surface to see the rest of the picture.
Sounds very similar to every study that shows red-light cameras “reduce” accidents. Do some basic analysis and the conclusion falls apart.
But, that’s the beauty of it. Most people can’t be bothered to fact-check anything.
@philbailey :
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
The UAW motto: “That’s good enough, pass it along”. Finally, we get someone at the UAW to tell us why their quality is so bad. One level up from a Russian assembly plant, where they adjust door hinges with a 2×4. But boy, do they achieve throughput-if that’s all that matters.
Yeah – that really explains why the Tundra is rated so much higher in quality than the F-150!
Oh wait – it isn’t!
Ok. Let’s just say the UAW factories are faster. The Detroit 3 are just about broke in 2008. Let’s pay the executives of the Detroit 3 zero dollars. That saves hundreds of millions of dollars. The Detroit 3 need to save billions of dollars to get solvent. Where can we save billions of dollars or get billions of dollars more efficient?
If all of Ford’s products were as competitive in their market segments as the F150 is then Ford would be in great shape.
Well, I do know that it takes a hell of a lot longer to train workers in the South than it does in Ontario and Rustbelt states. Do they figure in training programs with this as well? That was one of the main reasons why Toyota built in Woodstock. They knew that they wouldn’t have to spend an arm and a leg in training workers with 6th grade reading and math levels.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but no one has yet debunked with facts and logic the basic point that F-150s are built more quickly than Tundras.
Blobinski “…even though Ford makes the F150 in 19 hrs and Toyota makes the Tundra in 32hrs, the labor cost is about $1369 for Ford and $1408 for Toyota if you use the currently accepted labor rates for each.”
Are you including legacy costs, which create an unfair apples to oranges comparison? Even if so, note that the F-150 still ends up costing slightly less in labor than the Tundra. Isn’t that a good thing?
redrum: “I believe the discrepancy between the F-Series and Tundra assembly times is because the F-Series uses more pre-assembled parts from suppliers, so in reality Ford is just passing some of the assembly work to others….”
Why is that a bad thing? Presumably subcontracted work is likely to cost less than in-house labor, right?
philbailey: “Finally, we get someone at the UAW to tell us why their quality is so bad.”
Any data to back up your comparison between UAW workmanship and that of the Russians?
yankinwaoz: “The problem is not the UAW worker tightening bolts on a F-150. It is the 3 others getting 90% pay for sitting on their butts doing nothing.”
You imply that the job bank — which is presumably going away anyway — is the biggest cost driver. Do you have any facts to back that up, particularly in comparison to how Toyota has handled its workers in the Tundra plant?
Didn’t several editorials on this site mention how D3 engineers value ease of production more highly than non union companies to save on hours?
I really doubt that its physically possible that union workers are 55% faster than Toyota workers on the same task, so I’ve got to conclude that its a misleading comparison.
I think the statement from the article is all in the numbers. Ford could be using more subassemblies (e.g bumbers fully assembled with brackets and sensors) than Toyota. This has already been stated here by others. Does Ford or Toyota include in-line QA in the labor hours?
Again, it’s all in how the numbers were calculated. To really get a proper count of productivity it has to be a formal hands-on, blind analysis of which workers are adding value (hands touching) to the specific product and for how long, how long their mandatory coffee/smoke breaks REALLY are, etc.
Dr Lemming:
When is JOBS bank going away? Firm date, please. Far as I’ve heard, it’s been all talk and no action.
Also, what programs will the UAW insist GM create to take JOBS bank’s place?
One more thing, you know those little black fasteners (nicknamed Christmas trees)that secured the door panels on every GM I have owned? Every panel failed and those little devils are not reusable. I am sure these allowed for very quick install during manufacturing. I will take the stainless steel clips that secured my Toyota panels for years without failure, even if they do cost a few seconds more to install….
“Well, I do know that it takes a hell of a lot longer to train workers in the South than it does in Ontario and Rustbelt states. Do they figure in training programs with this as well? That was one of the main reasons why Toyota built in Woodstock. They knew that they wouldn’t have to spend an arm and a leg in training workers with 6th grade reading and math levels.”
Toyota built the second plant in Ontario and put it under the umbrella of the first to keep the first plant from being unionized.
There are a grand total of 2 Toyota plants and 2 Honda plants in Canada.
In the US south there are many Toyota plants, a few Honda plants, a Hyundai plant, several Nissan plants, a Mercedes plant, a BMW plant, Volkswagen is building a plant and I think Kia is building a plant. They could never compete with the super educated people of Canada?
Americans know how to solve America’s problems
And is doing a fine job of creating them, too.
They could never compete with the super educated people of Canada?
Education is an investment that I, as a Canadian taxpayer, am very glad to make. When I see comments like the above, it seems to me that the crisis facing my southern neighbour is beyond repair. Education is the key to prosperity in any developed nation.
I have no idea if what Gettelfinger says is true. Maybe he’s right, and the Tundra takes more hours to build than the F-150. In that case, congratulations to Ford.
However, I have to ask a pretty obvious, maybe stupid, question:
1) if that’s the case, and UAW workers are faster and more efficient than non-union workers just because they’re UAW;
2) if, as mentioned many times before by Mr. Gettelfinger and others, wages and benefits are about the same in non-union factories as in UAW ones;
3) if the UAW work rules are constructive and are actually improving productivity in their factories;
then, why in the world is Toyota NOT asking the UAW to come over and unionize their factories??
I’m very simple minded, and I don’t understand. Please illustrate me.
Lets see:Dr Lemming you seem to know what your talking about,well said.I would be interested in phil baileys source.
canucklehead I make a point of not commenting on American politics or American policies you should do the same.You and are Canadians and we are far from perfect.
From the Detnews
All stakeholders must participate. Unfortunately, the terms of the loans approved by President George W. Bush single out members of our union, by demanding steeper and faster concessions from the UAW than from any other part of the industry.
That’s not right, and we’ll work with the Obama administration and the new Congress to implement a more balanced approach. Along the way, we’ll have to clear away some myths. For example, anybody who claims that union work rules interfere with efficiency is uninformed about the current state of our industry.
Like I said before. You ain’t seen nothing yet. All those millions of payoff dollars the UAW made to the Democrats is gonna be returned big time.
I think a more interesting number would be the total cost of keeping the factory open and operating for one year divided by the number of units it produces. I think that would be a better indication of “efficiency”. This is where Ford’s $75/hr janitors and water fountain technicians might skew the equation. Does Gettlefinger think the entire American public is as dumb as the people that work for him?
Others have also brought up the concept of Ford using more modular assemblies, which is a good point, and I wonder if they are also made by union folks, and if there is accounting for the time to make those modules. If not, then it’s not even an apples-apples comparison, and a worthless talking point.
I’ve been stating all along that the biggest issue regarding the UAW’s ill effects on their hosts is not necessarily the costs, it’s the work rules. More specifically, the compromises that have to be made by the designers and engineers in order for a vehicle to be made according to UAW practices. In my line of work I used to hear from domestic engineers ALL THE TIME that “we can’t do that because they can’t or won’t put forth the extra effort it would take on the line without adding more people”, and I NEVER heard that from ANY of the imports, not even the Germans. If it’s a better way to do it, they do it, labor be damned. The other problem is that the management at the Big 2.34 is not strong enough to put their foot down, either, frankly.
It would be interesting to swap the same exact personnel (and their rules) at the Tundra & F 150 factories and see what happens?
It really is about labor cost per vehicle where the UAW is concerned. If they want to drop the work rules, then I suppose they can blame management for inefficiencies. What it sounds like from his argument is that the factory is better designed and thus his workers get a big benefit. I suspect they helped make it a better factory, but wouldn’t the non union guys be responsible for that as well? So much for it all being a management problem.
Lastly, the healthcare strawman is nothing but that. Healthcare has to be paid by someone, and in every country in the world, the working man pays for it somehow. If the pol’s, business owners, or union leaders manage to make people think that someone else is paying for healthcare so they can take credit, that is irrelevant. Those who work pay for their own, and others care. The number of people who inherit enough wealth that they don’t work couldn’t pay enough for very long to matter.
I have to agree with Phil Bailey about how US type vehicles are put together, in the Toronto Sun a couple of weeks ago, a reader complained that he decided to support the Domestic Industry by buying a Oshawa Ontario Impala, he stated that the first problem he had was one of the door handles had fallen off, the Dealer Service dept stated that he need not worry as he had lots of Warranty left? I know from personal experience that my GMC Van must have been built on a “Friday” with all the problems I have had with it over the years and when I purchased it in years gone bye, the warranty was not long, but why should the Consumer suffer by having to take your vehicle back for warranty service time after time, if the vehicle was made right the first time, consumers would be buying domestic all the time. The old saying “haste makes waste”. makes sense to me.
Canucknucklehead :
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Education is an investment that I, as a Canadian taxpayer, am very glad to make.
It is interesting how it is always up to taxpayers to make an investment in education (thanks to socialism). It would be great for students to also make that investment! Hiring a young person these days even with a fancy degree is truly an adventure.
Back on topic.. I’ll never by another UAW built vehicle. So as a Jeep guy, I’d like to see the Jeep brand sold to a non-union company as soon as possible please!
@Mikey:
“canucklehead I make a point of not commenting on American politics or American policies you should do the same. You and (I) are Canadians and we are far from perfect.”
It’s difficult to refrain from making reasonable observations about our American neighbours’ colossal failings. I think it’s overly generous of you, particularly as your life, and the lives of many of your friends, neighbours and coworkers have been damaged by the venality and incompetence of US politicians and executives.
Until our southern friends stop treating economic ideas as articles of faith, and begin to address structural failures based on the experience of more vibrant, stable and sensible models shown to work globally, Canadians will suffer intense blowback.
The ridiculous notion pushed ad nauseum by the Republican party that government equals socialism is finished. America will discover the virtues of good government over the next decade, or it will cease to be recognizable, if it exists at all.
So Mikey, you got screwed by external forces. I am guessing you are a straight shooter, who did everything right, and was incredibly grateful to have received a generous wage. You don’t sound like the sort prepared to kill the golden goose. I for one enjoy your humility, and your posts, and had a pang of guilt thinking of you when I purchased my brilliant Honda Fit.
Yes, speaking of facts, I would insist on seeing certification by independent 3rd party that these are apples-to-apples hour comparisons. It’s probably ‘touch labor’ BS on one side and total heads divided by total vehicles **actually** completed on the other.
Very interesting article on the effect of UAW work rules on the Detroit automakers:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/detroits-downturn-its-the-productivity-stupid/
One of the major problems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featherbedding
The images on TV showing 2.x assembly plants with many workers too fat to waddle up to their work stations even in slow motion are much more powerful then the words of a corrupt UAW making unlikely claims.
It is interesting how it is always up to taxpayers to make an investment in education (thanks to socialism).
QED.
Socialism for corporations is just fine, then.
Why is that a bad thing? Presumably subcontracted work is likely to cost less than in-house labor, right?
Where did I say it was a bad thing? If this method saves Ford money, great, but it has nothing to do with the point of the article which is what I was responding to — Gettlefinger using it to claim that UAW workers are more productive than non-UAW workers. He is obviously misrepresenting the Harbor Report findings to push his own agenda.
“General Motors now has a market valuation about a third of Bed, Bath And Beyond, and no one says your Swash 700 Elongated Biscuit Toilet Seat Bidet is too big to fail. GM has a market capitalization of just over two billion dollars. For purposes of comparison, Toyota’s market cap is one hundred billion and change (the change being bigger than the whole of GM). General Motors, like the other two geezers of the Old Three, is a vast retirement home with a small loss-making auto subsidiary. The UAW is the AARP in an Edsel: It has three times as many retirees and widows as “workers” (I use the term loosely). GM has 96,000 employees but provides health benefits to a million people.”
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTMxODc2NzY0OTNhODNhNmUwMjY5MzU2NzliMjA2NDY=
I wonder if line speed has anything to do with it… I know the F-150 has been produced as quickly as possible with its plants consolidated. In fact, Ford had overtime until late-May, I think. The Tundra fell on its face with the rest of the truck market and the line speed slowed in May sometime while Ford elimintated overtime and then shifts. Currently, line speeds at the San Antonio plant are running fairly low (well, when they’re running) while the F-150 inventory is depleted and the line is churning as fast as reasonable. I would imagine that line-speed reductions would make more sense to someone like Toyota with an expendable workforce that you don’t want to layoff as opposed to a union shop where you *can’t,* and you get better efficiencies by shutting down the power to facility for more time. Not that a company like Ford doesn’t slow the line, but I imagine that they reach the point of shutting down a shift faster than Toyota.
I think the real debate here is truly about union rules, and Gettelfinger is proving politically savy once again. The real issue is that Ford/GM/Cerberus can’t hire many contractors, they can’t layoff people, they have to pay people who aren’t working and they can’t make them do tasks that aren’t in that job description during the time when they are otherwise idle. But he’s ducked all of that by making a comparison that the average idiot won’t be able to interpret correctly. Gettelfinger for President! (jk)
I suppose we could wax divinely about how Ford’s clearly are put together haphazardly and this just proves it, but then we ignore the reality (as is apt to happen on this board) and we miss the true point that a few non-idiots have tried to refocus us on.
I don’t think this debate should be about cutting wages. I think it should be about at-will employement (eliminating rules). But even more, I think this debate should be about getting rid of liabilities and coming up with a health and retirement model that can work in private enterprise without completely overburdening a company. I mean, yes, the yearly costs of retirement health care and pensions are high – but they are nothing compared to the effects of billions and billions of “estimated” liabilities that the company has to account for on its balance sheet. Non-defined pensions program, anyone? Retire health savings accounts? How can our government help us here?
We turn everything into a *socialist* debate, but I think any practical economist should realize the economic impact of no health care coverage. Our government has the ability not to hand out health care but encourage programs at a corporate level and individual level through tax incentives and maybe some minor regulations to direct action. I think the question of a viable model can and should be broached with these UAW talks that are about to open the flood gates of all possible outcomes (I hope). Imagine if a blueprint for a workable retirement system came out of this mess with our automakers!?
However… I’m sure we’ll just digress into our black and white world of capitalism v. socialism, individual v. government and manager v. worker. I expect nothing less from the discourse that pervades.
There is certainly plenty of blame to go around for the mess in the USA, the auto industry being only a small part of which.
Of 30 OECD countries, the USA is the only one without a national health car system. This puts US producers at an enormous disadvantage vis a vis its competitors. I don’t think the other 29 countries of the OECD are going to privatise health insurance any time in the near future.
The inflexibility of the UAW is also a major factor. Instead of working with the companies to safeguard their jobs, the UAW is doing the classic union tactic of refusing to budge. This kind of defeats the purpose of having a union if there is no company to work for and thus pay union dues.
As for socialism, I wonder how many people can wrap their head around the enormity of how much private sector debt in the USA has been nationalised in the last six months; it is something more than $6,000,000,000,000 or half a year’s GDP. This means every worker in the USA could stay home for a year on full salary. A “free enterprise” administration has transferred more private debt to the public purse than any other government in history.
This will cripple succeeding generations from investing in business and infrastructure because you cannot continue to print and borrow indefinitely. Every great power in history has seen this happen. The exact same thing caused the French Revolution in 1789.
The USA is at a crossroads. I wonder how many people recognise the gravity of the situation?
I give up. I was never a member before, but I feel like jumping in now.
2 points:
1. Regarding the efficiency difference between F150 and Tundra; when I worked for GM in Oshawa, we often felt we were losing out to the transplants because their Harbor numbers including only assembly, because the rest were contract for tasks such as stocking parts, etc… Is it possible that now Ford is getting Harbor to count just actual parts on, and Toyota is getting all parts counted, including non-assembly support jobs? The previous post about more pre-made assemblies is also a good one about the possible differences.
2. As to the Canada/US education discussion previously. As a former Canadian and now US citizen, I want to make one comment. I do agree that society should invest in education. The US does that now in the form of our public State universities and colleges. We don’t fund to the level of Canada, and I’m OK with that. My friends and family in Canada are full of people who went to university and took degrees of limited to no economic value because it was so cheap. Their education did enrich society, but I’m not sure the return was worth the investment. My Wife, Sister, Sister-in-Law, and Brother-in-Law never earned a cent nor paid a cent of income tax back to Canadian society with the education that Canadian society subsidized for them. Four year degrees from full universities in various liberal arts disciplines. While in Canada and single, I paid a level of taxation that I will never submit to again to fund such things. I’m happier in the US. The governement should make sure financing is available for all students for their post-secondary education. Still, they need to have some “Skin in the game” to make sure the education they get is valuable to them and to society…..
The USA is at a crossroads. I wonder how many people recognise the gravity of the situation?
Most people have know idea.
Most people have know [sic] idea.
It that meant to be satirical?
Their education did enrich society, but I’m not sure the return was worth the investment
It is difficult to qualify the absolute dollar value that education gives a society but I still maintain that having someone in university is infinitely preferable to having someone in jail. It is a whole lot cheaper, too. There is also a direct correlation between economic prosperity and education.
“Of 30 OECD countries, the USA is the only one without a national health car(e) system. This puts US producers at an enormous disadvantage vis a vis its competitors. I don’t think the other 29 countries of the OECD are going to privatise health insurance any time in the near future.”
But what of transplants that manufacture cars here? They seem to be doing well. By this logic in the next few decades we should see Toyota, Honda, BMW etc. fail in the US. Whether nationalized or private, health care costs money. Your logic is that because the Big 3 pay for health care instead of government they are at a disadvantage. The trouble with this logic is that the government needs to get its money from someone; it doesn’t produce anything. For government to pay for health care either taxes on the Big 3 would have to be raised (similarly disadvantaging them) or taxes on the Big 3’s work force would have to be raised (meaning the Big 3 would have to pay them more to maintain a similar standard of living; again disadvantaging them). I’m not trying to turn this into a debate about private/national healthcare, but the idea that the US healthcare system is a primary problem for the Big 3 is simply fallacious.
Also, in what universe is the Bush administration a “free enterprise” administration? It is not and never has been.
I still maintain that having someone in university is infinitely preferable to having someone in jail. It is a whole lot cheaper, too.
Are you saying that if society doesn’t pay for a college education, the person then ends up in jail? is there really a correlation there? Maybe they just end up at the same job, with less education. “Would you like fries with that?”
Is the direct correlation between education in general and economic welfare? Maybe it’s more strongly a correlation between education in economically rewarding things like business/computers/engineering etc., and this just shows up in an analysis of all education. Shfting the overall numbers so to speak.
Does anyone have real data to show that?
Who cares? What’s the big hurry in building cars to sit and rust on dealer lots? Are they proud that they can go broke quicker than anyone else.
And while he is in the room, where exactly are those ‘concessions’ that Barney Frank talked so butch about and were promised to the American people?
thebigmass,
GM’s problem is for every one worker they pay health benefits for 9 more, either retirees or dependants.
Your logic is that because the Big 3 pay for health care instead of government they are at a disadvantage.
A significant portion of the Big 2.5’s production capacity has either been moved out of the USA or simply closed down. Those jobs were lost to places with national health care (Canada) or no health care (Mexico).
For government to pay for health care either taxes on the Big 3 would have to be raised
At the moment they are not paying ANY tax because they don’t make any profits. The USA pays more as a percentage of GDP for health care than any other country in the world as the situation stands now. Is the country reaping good returns on this investment in life expectancy or child mortality?
is there really a correlation there?
There is a direct correlation between levels of education attained and income. There is also a direct correlation between crime in wealthy areas vs poor areas.
“A significant portion of the Big 2.5’s production capacity has either been moved out of the USA or simply closed down. Those jobs were lost to places with national health care (Canada) or no health care (Mexico).”
True, but while that was happening many new plants were being built in the US by the transplants.
“The USA pays more as a percentage of GDP for health care than any other country in the world as the situation stands now. Is the country reaping good returns on this investment in life expectancy or child mortality?”
This is a legitimate point of debate, but it’s not relevant to the discussion of the D3’s problems. Again, I’m not trying to start another health care debate (as we’ve had plenty of those); I merely wish to point out that one way or another health care needs to be paid for so it’s not fair to say that the current (and I’ll gladly agree dysfunctional) US health care system is GM’s problem. Transplants are opening profitable plants in the US.
As others have said comparing the F-150 and the Tundra is probably comparing the most profitable Ford to the least profitable Toyota.
Cases of 1 tend not to provide conclusive evidence for anything.
Besides all that, it’s not so much the current salary bill going out the door that is murdering the GM/Chrysler; it’s their UNFUNDED debt obligations (including past UAW dues) and rapidly declining market share. In short, they’re insolvent.
What is interesting is that the UAW would be running this out. Is it an indication (if we needed any more) that the UAW position is not negotiable before 31st March?
Maybe Ford engineers had a better idea when they designed an F150 which required fewer hours to assemble. The difference in time is not because the UAW workers are working harder or faster. I worked at a non automotive UAW plant (as an engineer) back in the 90’s. Overall, UAW workers do care about doing a good job. UAW workers working at automotive plants work as hard as workers at non-union plants. However, they do not work harder or faster. I personally know factory people working for both GM, and two of the non union transplants, and it seems they all are very hard working and dedicated. So while the UAW may handicap the tiny 3 to some extent, the lions share of the blame must go to the Harvard MBA management.
Forgive my ignorance but just how reliable is the Harbor Report? Are they truly independent with no links to the D3? I always look at the source before accepting the message as fact.
“summary- even though Ford makes the F150 in 19 hrs and Toyota makes the Tundra in 32hrs, the labor cost is about $1369 for Ford and $1408 for Toyota”
How about some reality.
A typical F-150 sells for about $25,000 or more.
UAW labor cost is a little over 5% of this number. How can labor possibly be to blame for the lack of profit? Even if they cut wages by 20%, what would that save, about $250?
The others have said it above. Modularity, pre-assemblies, parallelism, etc. == not apples-apples comparison.
(Remember, Taylor basically Invented time-studies + speed ergonomics, and he did it with Henry at Ford)
But otherwise:
1)
i) It’s Ron Gettelfinger.
ii) His lips are moving.
=> You know it’s a lie.
I wouldn’t expect him to have or give apples-apples numbers if his moustache depended on it.
2)
i) The comparison is Too Obvious/Extreme
=> You know it’s a lie.
eg: It’s almost like a Sniper-Shot Disqualification Attempt. ->Let’s pit our Strongest Product (exc. for the CTS-V),
Against the Strongest Automaker In The World,
AND ~’Prove’ we’re better (as some kind of grand demonstration)
*The only way the lie would be more glaring is if he took aim at the Prius or the Camry.
–
Hire an Independent team of economists with No ties to either country, company, or product and get them to conduct a Full Economic Cost Assessment of the whole ball of wax; -Time Studies, Factory Error %, Dealer Warranty Return Freq/time, Avg. Repair Costs, Total Unit Time+Cost (like alternators, radiators etc), Assembly Line Methodology, Total Cost/Enterprise(w/ health, legacy, duplication, idles, …) * Total Hours of Prod./Unit, etc.
-> And they Will find what we all know.
However Ron wants to slice/spin/dice his numbers the 2.8 make 4x shittier products, even if 1 fake metric can be forced to look like it’s ~40% faster/cheaper.
In his position, the possibilities for fudging stats are nearly Infinite divided by zero.