Also, I am on the record as a Prius hater ever since day one. And I offer no apologies.

I nominated the ZENN after an encounter with one last year.

They were doing some sort of promotional tour with the car (towing it as they are not road legal in most of Canada) and the guy showing off the car was drawing a big crowd.

Everyone was amazed that this futuristic electric car was built in Canada.

So I decided to ask three questions:

How long does it take to charge?

What’s the range?

What’s the top speed?

After he replied the crowd seemed to disperse.

and to them anyone who tries to add some kind of objective criteria into the discussion is a liar and spreads FUD if you take a hybrids name in vain.

No. Objectively FALSE statements that have been debunked here many times will, and should, get that rejoinder. Otherwise, I’ve had no problem at all identifying subjective differences of opinion (drivability, for instance).

The claims you make about battery disposal are bordering on objectively false at this point in time. The oldest Prius batteries are already being recycled when necessary (remember, there are some on the road from 1997, at least in Japan – some of those cars have reached the end of their lifetimes). The claims you make about battery life are suspect as well – there are US Priuses from 2000-2001 still going strong; there are the infamous Prius cabs; etc.

If you don’t want to be called a FUDder, don’t hang out in the places they do.

And I never once said nobody ever cross-shops the Prius with any other car. Obviously *I* did. The argument comes when people say you should always cross-shop it with the Corolla, which is smaller in both passenger and cargo space, but not with other cars of the same (midsize) class.

It is hard to find a deal as bad as buying a ZENN electric “car”. The ZENN is easily the worst automobile sold in the US today. For the outrageous price of $17,000, you get: something that goes from zero to 25mph in 9.2 seconds, even slower than the REVA G-Wiz, an electric vehicle so slow it lost a drag race to four men carrying a table (look it up on YouTube, seriously). Also, you get a vehicle that is terribly impractical, to boot. This glorified golf cart has a maximum of only fifty miles per charge, and yet it takes eight hours to fully charge it with the standard charger. Want to recharge in only one hour? Easy, just hand over $8995! Well, you think, at least it can carry my groceries home from the store, right? Sure, but you better shop wisely as the hatch can only swallow 13 cubic feet. Need more? Okay, just use the passenger seat, but I hope you like riding solo, which can’t be much fun as the little two-seater doesn’t include a radio in the exorbitant price. Do you at least get a distinctive looking vehicle so people know your virtue? Of course, you get a “car” that looks like you built it yourself out of mismatching junkyard parts, modeled after a Matchbox Car! The interior isn’t much better, because your $17,000 “car” is clad side-to-side in cheap plastic that looks as if it came out of a Daewoo! It isn’t all bad, because you get two cloth seats with some different looking upholstery, like something out of a mid-80’s Cavalier to cheer you up from the depressingly fake wood and the blantantly plasticky faux metal adorning the vents. The interior isn’t nearly as depressing as the fact that the “car” is so expensive that it could never save you money in transportation costs unless gas hit $50 a gallon! On the environmental side, I believe the metal mined for the six lead-acid batteries and the disposal after the vehicle’s life does more damage than, oh, say, a Ford Excursion. The only upside I can see to buying a ZENN is that you can park in a half-space for Smart cars, and the smugness some get for claiming they’re “saving the planet”. I’d rather save $12,000 and keep my fun, fiesty, 40mpg ‘99 Civic EX 5MT Coupe, thank you very much.

There was a lot of negative press from those who resisted Hybrids but the fact is a hybrid still costs more to product and requires more energy over a comparable gasoline or diesel car. Any “debunking” was the exaggerated claims and what was untrue in the first place.

You classify a Prius as a “midsize car” and say no one else would ever cross shop a Prius with any other car – but in reality many of its competition are not large or mid size cars but often are compact cars (which really aren’t that compact anymore) – these people cross shop mpg and other attributes over size. That leads me to where an (inferior in your opinion) $15k compact car that gets almost 40 mpg combined is not as efficient a choice – a $7k premium to get a hybrid. With gas at $1.50 a gallon again the hybrid won’t pay for itself for the premium – even over another midsize car. $20k for a Camry 4cyl and $22k for Prius – gas would have to be over $4 again.

As for batteries being a non consideration in a hybrid is patently misleading. All batteries degrade over their useful lives leaving them less efficient and effective over time. They use precious metals and add much complexity making the drivetrain and CPUs more complex. Eventually hybrids need to be recycled and batteries have toxic chemicals that need to be specially contained and processed. This is a cost most people ignore b/c it happens outside their time of ownership.

The main advantage of a Hybrid is its city driving – it excels the best here b/c of its setup and its mileage numbers prove it. Note most hybrids actually get better city mpg than on the hwy.

I am not a “liar” nor trying to spread FUD so please stop making this personal. Hybrids are not as wonderful and beyond reproach as you make them out to be. They do have their advantages AND disadvantages. And if I lived in a city and had a lot of traffic to deal with I’d look into buying one.

The cool thing is that worst is a relative term. Many of today’s worst still compare decently with much of the mainstream from 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Curb weights are up and bad styling endures (I’m talking about you Sebring) but when was the last time your car rusted out, or had an electrical system failure, or wouldn’t start on a cold day because the carb was iced up. And I’m not just talking about old Alfas and Jags. The Chrysler Aspen/ Dodge Durango may yet make my list, but compared to the Dodge Aspen/ Plymouth Volare from the ’70’s, they’re freakin’ Rolls Royces.

Speaking of which, a late nomination for the Rolls Royce Phantom. Indisputably the worst value ever in terms of good looks for the money.

Remember, TTAC now has a significantly wider audience, it’s not as small and focused as before. The smaller readership would only have helped to skew the lists in a more biased favor overall, since the readership was probably more “hardcore” or “truth-seeking”. Theoretically, at any rate. Now, your getting a much broader opinion.

This is why some publications have two lists, an Editor’s list that (theoretically) provides an unbiased take on all options to yield a (hopefully) well-researched, factually-based result. A second Reader’s list voices the public opinion. The two are always good for a healthy, objective comparison, regardless of outcome.

If someone wants to enter all models of a certain make because of a simple, hateful bias, they are completely allowed regardless of anyone else’s concerns on that matter. You can’t force anything on a public vote.

The complaints OTHERS made about the Prius (battery life, supposed low mileage, the Hummer v hybrid study, misrepresenting vehicle class) are objectively false.

Do you not see the difference? Really?

Name calling and demeaning people only weakens your position. I agree that the Prius probably doesn’t belong on the list, but totally disagree with your characterization of the people who put it on there. There are legitimate gripes about the Prius whether you want to recognize them or not. For most people who buy them as a commuter car and grocery getter, a smaller, cheaper, fuel efficient car like a Corolla would have been the better economic choice. Also, remember this is purportedly an “enthusiast site.” I don’t think the most dedicated Prius lover could honestly argue that the handling and acceleration of the vehicle is sporty. Let’s not forget the years of rhetoric about how good people drove a Prius and the rest of the population were Troglodites, Cretans, Luddites, etc. You’ve got to expect some backlash against that type of attitude, and further name calling only exascerbates it.

On the Corolla: I see your point about a preference for a softer set-up (although I love the 3, no reservations about a crashy ride), but I still don’t think Toyota aimed for more than comfortable when they finished off the Corolla. That’s basically my problem, here we have a company that can literally snap it’s well-moneyed fingers to make it happen, but they haven’t. The car could have been too soft for my taste, but still dynamically competent. I’ll have to admit though, that my reaction is informed by a belief that Toyota has taken up some of the bad habits that GM used to demonstrate, so this car itself comes in as something of a whipping horse for the brand. Especially since I’ve been reminded of the Elantra (I still prefer the Sentra to the Corolla, haven’t driven the automatic though).

psarhjinian The Yaris is a more glaring example in my opinion though as it’s value for money isn’t even ballpark range on the Fit. The sheer lack of basic features (tach!) is stand-out (though cool cubbyholes I admit), which would be completely fine if it handled better than it does, but I have to say, I thought the Fit I drove had a better ride as well. Where I did drive the Yaris (Oneonta, NY) there was an exceptionally rough patch of road and the car fell into the holes one corner at a time, it was very unpleasant. Also, the clutch take-up was too light as was the steering. That being said, it may be that the Fit’s ride benefits from the extra length of the vehicle, which goes right to your easier to park argument. I think however, that if another car company had released the Yaris, as is, to us, we’d be loudly mocking them and calling them out. There are cars out there that I hear are less fun to drive (Versa) but they actually accomplish the goal of being cheap in price, which the Yaris just dosen’t do with the few options I would need to buy one.

I personally don’t go for Toyotas, but I understand that they are making good choices for the customers they serve.
Call it respect rather than love.

I prefer a firmer ride/handling trade-off. So what? Your choice is just as valid.

Again, as enthusiasts we need to stop thinking the car world revolves around us.

Bunter

I’ll grant you the Corolla isn’t perfect, but it is very good at satisfying more customers than the 3. It gets better mileage and gives up nothing in terms of power, rides much better, has lessy fussy ergonomics and better statistical reliability. I’d prefer the Focus (pre-08) or 3 as well–I think it’s a brilliantly-sorted car–but I’m in the minority. You cannot argue with Toyota’s logic in this because the sales and retention numbers bear it out.

The Fit versus Yaris is a similar call. The Yaris gets better real-world mileage, is easier to park and rides better; the Fit is more versatile and handles better. The Yaris sells better because it appeals to a wider segment of people.

Sales aren’t always indicative of quality, but it’s very, very hard to argue against year-over-year sales increases and top-of-the-market customer satisfaction.

Again, the Corolla et al aren’t bad in the way the TSX is (they’re not grossly disappointing) or the way the Sebring is (outright terrible. They’re just appliances for a given task. You may as well hate Maytag.

I live in Minnesota, now, and only the very hardiest cyclists are out today.

I wouldn’t by any means say the 3 series is bad or one of the worst, but when I was shopping german & japanese, the best bang/$ for me was the STi that I found. For the price of an entry level bimmer, you get a much “harder” car (with an admittedly crappier interior…but if you are taking time to notice the interior in an STi you aren’t really driving it).

Kixstart> My friends GS500F (you said which “vehicle” not “which car”) he bought for $4500 out the door new does in the mid to high 40’s city, mid 50’s highway and costs $35/month for full coverage insurance. It will also out accelerate and is a ton more fun than a prius, and costs 25% of the price. Even better is a ninja 250 which is (from what I’ve heard) high 50’s city, mid 60’s to low 70’s highway, is $4k or less out the door and is based on a 20 year proven design. It’s kind of slow at 0-60 in 6.5-7 seconds, but you can go up to the gs500 if you want something faster (mid 5’s).

@ tedward:

The problem with your analysis is that Toyota’s customers don’t necessarily want that “better” suspension offered by the Mazda Mazda3.

I drove the Mazda3 when I was shopping for a new car, and thought it was too noisy, too hard-riding (and bouncy, to boot), and a touch over-sensitive in the steering. A few months after I bought a Corolla, I drove a rental Mazda3 and got to re-examine that perception. I came away satisfied that I had made the right choice. On a switchback, the Mazda3 is sharp and dynamic. On potholes, it’s just unpleasant. Even my friend, who loves to drive for the sake of driving, found it a bit much.

Toyota doesn’t build the Corolla for people who want the Mazda3 experience. They build it for people who want smooth, predictable handling that absorbs bumps and keeps quiet. I’m the first to say that the steering needs retuning for a bit more weight on-center, but the suspension settings are just right for people who don’t drive aggressively on country roads most of the time.

I will agree that the Civic offers sharp competition for the ‘Rolla. In the end, I test-drove each of them no less than four times, and I think it just comes to personal taste. I happened to like the exterior of the Corolla better, and liked the look of the Civic interior. The Civic, however, tries too hard to be nerdy, and its manual shifter is bizzare and unergonomical. Finally, the fact that you couldn’t get an ‘08 Civic (on the market when I was looking at the new ‘09 Corolla this spring) with stability or traction control took it right off the list. I live in the Snow Belt, and I’m a very good driver, but sometimes you need some help, especially with a steep driveway and freezing rain (like tonight). Other than that, they’re very close.

If you want to find a bad choice in that segment, by all means drive a Sentra or Elantra. Ouch and double-ouch.

With a hybrid you get slightly better mpg than an economy car for a premium of $3k-$8k more, no more tax credits, have to use more resources to build the car than an economy car, and then add in the eventual cost of replacing expensive batteries using precious metals in 5-6 years time. That is facts not ideology that is against hybrids

No, those are lies and FUD. You need a better dictionary. The Prius, a midsize car, is 10-20 mpg better than its closest competitor in the midsize class, and 5-10 mpg better than the closest diesel. The batteries in the previous generation Prius have been lasting the lifetime of the cars — and the lone study that talks about the supposedly huge resource impact was a notorious hatchet job that this site has debunked about ten thousand times.

Lies and FUD. Hope you can sleep at night.

“Slightly better mpg?” What other vehicle gets 48mpg in the city? 46mpg on the highway? The highway improvement is the less remarkable of te two but it’s still head and shoulders above the rest of the herd. And nothing is even in the same ballpark for city fuel economy.

“Premium of $3K-$8K” over what? A Prius starts at $22K. A Malibu is comparable in interior room and starts at $19K.

“Have to use more resources to build” than what? Another mid-size car? Where are these resources hiding? The Prius doesn’t weigh all that much and it doesn’t cost all that much. If they used significantly more resources to build it, we’d be able to find them somewhere… either in the price tag or on the scale.

“And then add in the eventual cost of replacing expensive batteries using precious metals in 5-6 years time?” There’s Priuses on the road today and the batteries certainly aren’t failing wholesale, if at all. And as for “precious metals” in them… Nickel counts as “precious?” Nickel is a common component of vehicle steel, anyway. Here’s an experiment for you… give genuine nickel jewelry to your wife for your 25th anniversary and see how well that goes over. I hope your couch is comfy.