My feeling is that there has been a general drop in the average standard of TTAC posts in recent times.

More comments seem borderline (or over it) flaming to me than has previously been the case.

And I haven’t tried to do any sort of measured comparison, but I have read several threads lately that sound to me more like the “trash” forums I have seen but don’t bother reading because it’s just like people shouting at each other (in print). Or else just aggressive chest thumping: “or do you just talk big fella?” (I haven’t actually read this on TTAC – but some of what is written reads like that is what is meant)

TTAC used to be different – and often still is. I read it and participate for the quality, not the quantity. There are many points of view on TTAC and I have enjoyed reading the carefully written pieces that I don’t agree with as much as those which I do.

I fear that increasing the quantity will just reduce the average quality. If there is a vote – mine is against having forums.

I second (or third) the idea of a Craigslist style flagging system. If say 20 other users vote someone banned, they’re banned. Self-moderation works pretty well. On the other hand, is there a need for forums? There are tons of car forums already. How would you position this one to make it different than what’s already out there?

I’m afraid of what criteria would be used to ban someone.

Would it be because a person has a strong opinion that is contrary to the general view and where in a moment of frustration, that person gets a little testy?

I think that’s a dangerous slope we’d be heading for.

Well, in my opinion, there are only a limited amount of intelligent, like-minded people willing to participate in the TTAC brand.

I’m not saying this to be a snob, but I’m on a few professional forums (professional home improvement) that are open to anyone and I gotta tell ya, it’s pretty damn disappointing reading the quality of the questions and posts in these forums. I actually was reprimanded by a moderator for trying to disuade a homeowner from installing his own granite countertops that he was getting mail order, nevermind that the guy could KILL himself.

And I see this at other automotive sites as well where patently wrong information is thrown around as “advice” to others. I’m just tired of reading that sort of thing.

Up to now, there have been precious few instances of where the comments fall into the what bullshit category. Forgive me if I’d like to make sure it stays that way.

Anyhow… there is a place to see a UGC board system done right. I started on The Fool back in 1998, and they are still going strong. They do charge, which I think keeps the riff-raff out.

Would I use a TTAC forum? At this time, I would prefer not to. But if one is created, I may be forced to become an “inadvertent forum user,” just to follow the inevitable links that will show up in QOTD, news, or editorial articles.

I’m a highly selective reader. I skip most of the reviews, even the ones about BMWs or Priora! If you don’t hook me in the first paragraph, I probably won’t open the article.

I’m here for the editorial and news content, and it must be GOOD. I like TTAC because I can “get it and go.”

Besides, I’m already a member in way too many forums. My password file contains about 200 passwords, half of which are probably for forums…

Why so many? Well, nearly every manufacturer of every computer component, appliance, automobile, or lawn and garden device has a forum…and they “can” be great for tech support. But the downside is that every time I buy something new, I have to join a forum! (GRRRR!)

And since everybody has something to say (ie, “rant”) about EVERYTHING these days, there’s too much out there. Too much junk, yes. But too much good stuff, too…it’s difficult to process even a small percentage of it all.

I “get” what you’re saying about “clicking over” to another site, that one being the Forum site. But the act of “clicking over” makes it merely a thinly veiled part of the same site. And what happens when one of the articles (or one of its attached comments) on the main site contains a link to one or more threads in the forum? Suddenly, I’m an “inadvertent forum user,” even if I don’t have or don’t want a user id and password.

We have some of that now, with various comments referring us to this or that discussion on Jalopnik, Edmunds, and so forth. Luckily it’s not been a lot, but with a TTAC forum, that would surely change.

In my own experience, links to forums (internal or external) are sometimes helpful, but not always. The problem for me as a reader is that I still have to GO THERE to make that assessment…

Instead, I find myself saying, “Ugh, now I have to ‘go there’ to get more of the facts that this or that person wants to add.”

Sometimes, when I get there, my heart falls, because I find myself plopped into a single thread that spans 100+ PAGES. I don’t even have time to read 100+ POSTS, let alowne that many pages!

I’m a fast reader, but sometimes, it’s just too much to read.

Maybe it’s just because I’m very busy, but I like being able to read an article, then OPTIONALLY being able to add a thought or two. It’s simple and fast, and that’s been quite enough for me.

The two-way aspect of posting to articles is nice. If somebody reads my thought and gets a chuckle or a “hmmm-moment”, that’s great. But that can be the end of it if I wish. Hey, there’ll be a new editorial tomorrow, anyhow.

I like that functional life-expectancy of article/threads on the main TTAC site. As they get older, I just don’t feel the need to ressurect them. There’s no long-term commitment, which is a pleasant reprieve from the normal “forum grind.” I’m not marrying these topics, for crying out loud.

I like it that I don’t feel obligated to stay for breakfast. ;)

Forum threads are different. They require care and feeding, and sometimes long-term commitments. And I’m not talking about the moderators!

Forum threads take on a different life, sometimes a distortedly LARGE life. And the worst threads keep coming back like some horror character that just won’t die…

One other thing…in my experience, people with “high post counts” often don’t post the most sensible things. Sometimes, they are part of the problem when it comes to moderation, but the mods may not want to say anything for fear of angering the “old timer” member or some of the other forum members who, for whatever reason, hold that person in high regard.

This form of favoritism can be very harmful. Thankfully, TTAC has been very consistent in terms of not showing favoritism on the main site, and I like that.

On a slightly related issue:

I’ve often wondered if some forums might benefit from allowing a maximum daily-post count. Say, maybe let you respond to ten posts, then cut you off with a gentle but firm, “you should go out to the garage and tinker now,” or “it’s time to go for a ride now,” or maybe a simple, “Okay, forum time’s up. Why don’t you go outside and play?”

A reasonable daily post-limit might encourage more “make it count” posts, and fewer “wer r u 2nite?” type posts. I don’t know, it might at least make for an interesting experiment…

I already spend too much time reading stuff on TTAC.

Forums are really needed on this site. They are great to foster a community, great to ask questions (”what is the best 4WD SUV?”) and great to spew opinions (”look at this nifty feature Honda just introduced in Japan!”).

TTAC has a great opportunity to make their forums interesting by having TTAC staff participate in the threads!

You’ll probably end up having a lot of different forums, like other sites do, to organize the discussions. For instance, you probably need a forum for each car maker and car model, so that owners of a specific model can have their own subcommunity.
You also need forums for general topics, like GM death watch.

Navigating and searching the forums easily (and the site in general) is very important.

Every forum needs to have a moderator, who makes his presence felt (to discipline people), who sets the boundaries of the topic at the beginning and who keeps people on topic. That’s the way other forum sites can be successful.
Normally you first have the moderator, before the forum starts!
One twist could be to allow ’somewhat trusted’ volunteers to start forums. The use of volunteers implies that a forum can die when that volunteer quits.

There actually do exist many websites with useful forums, populated by polite, interesting people. So I have good hope TTAC can achieve that also.

Entries on the News section of TTAC fly by so quickly that it is hardly worthwhile to comment on them. Forums allow to have threads of discussion with a longer life span.
By the way: News items go so fast that I feel at a disadvantage here on the West Coast; 3 hours time delay puts me way at the end of the line! By that time nobody is reading anymore!

By clicking on the name of a contributor you could get to a profile page that has a list of all of that person’s prior comments plus a bit of info (such as which cars they drive!).

You could introduce classified adds to the site (like Craigslist). That could be a good source of revenue (I just read Craigslist makes $100M per year with a staff of 25 people).

This turned into a long post, which shows I care about TTAC.
Keep up the good work.

For TTAC to survive, it must evolve. For TTAC to evolve and continue to preserve its core, careful steps must be taken and I think that Robert, the staff, and most of my fellow commentators realize this. There have been a lot of good ideas offered above. The only ideas I would offer would be to proceed with scrutiny, reader feedback, and discrimination. I regret that the word “discrimination” has such a negative connotation because there are many, many times where one must be extremely discriminant to in order to ensure quality.

Simply because of editorials like this one that ask for advise and commentary from readers, I am confident that TTAC will not run afoul.

Thorner’s article today strikes me as representative of what TTAC can offer; really good content from thoughtful but unknown parties, with good QA from TTAC management, so that, if you land here, you don’t read mindless drivel; you get something that’s worth your time.

Time will tell… Now, I am drunk, and nothing really makes sense. All I want to say is that I love TTAC and the idea it represents, the belief that something, anything, could be done better than the way it is right now. I believe that TTAC represents all the good thing about the industry, the idealistic idea that mediocracy could somehow be banished forever. No matter where you stand, TTAC will always stand in the forefront. As long as bad cars are built, the TTAC will tell you the truth about it.

And cheers to ya all…

The recent understanding that you had with AE which subsequently fell apart a day later, might just work under a “franchise” deal.

Most blogs are “silos” in a Web 2.0 environment that ideally would like to see all these silos interconnected to expand the possibilities. For some reason automotive blogs have thick walls on their silos.

Its understandable since “eyeball count” can equate to money. At the same time eyeball count can stall at a level which is not satisfactory.

I will spend all day tomorrow learning about it – I have two workshops: “Introduction to Web 2.0″ and “Using Web 2.0 As a Collaborative Tool”.

As for your idea, I understood it much better the 2nd time you explained it – probably just a case of needing to hear it twice :) Now that I understand it, I like it!!! If you ever need a Mazda enthusiast to help out in any way…

AGR.

Point taken.

TTAC’s core strength is the relationship described by RGS920. You, the autoblogospher’s Best and Brightest, force us to play at the top of our game. I’ve referred to this writer – commentator symbiosis as “running the gauntlet.” You could also call it “keeping us honest.” And as honesty is our stock in trade, every little hurt bits. Or something like that.

Rest assured, I hear your warnings loud and clear: adding too much content– whether TTAC or UGC– risks diluting the quality of our writing and/or your commentary. My OCD is WAY too strong to let flames and/or drivel infect any corner the site.

But I reckon those who hold the position that too many posts/commentators will lead to some serious shark jumping either A) enjoy the sense of fellowship created by a relative small community and despair at the notion of anything that threatens its integrity (fair enough) B) assume that there is only so many intelligent, like-minded people willing to participate in/create the TTAC brand.

Yes, it it true, as AGR states: 20 percent (or less) of our visitors do 80 percent of the commenting. But I think there are tens of thousands more smart, literate, informed, industry-aware pistonheads who WOULD participate in TTACery if they had a proper “home” for their topic-related thoughts, beliefs, ideas and, yes, gossip.

Think of it this way…

Car and Driver’s circulation is about 1m (and falling). Autoblog can rack-up that many sets of eyeballs in a DAY. Jalopnik pulls in around 100K uniques per day. TTAC has 21k-ish uniques per day. The trick to doubling or tripling our traffic is NOT to try and do what they others guys do better than they do it. The trick is to do something different.

User Generated Content– NOT forums in the traditional sense– is it. (We also have a killer app or two but we ain’t talkin’ about them now). We have the skills to nurture new talent. To give voiceless car-obsessed cubicle dwellers a shot at immortality (or something a tad less grandiose, but equally fun).

Obviously, UGC is an inherently risky business. I’m sorry to say it, but as leader of this ragtag fugitive fleet of survivors journeying into space in search of a fabled refuge known as Earth, uh, sustainable profits, I’m a death or glory kinda guy. Sure, we can always pull the plug later, but I’m determined to take a shot at creating something TRULY Web 2.0.

There is no question in my mind that launching this bad boy will be an ongoing nightmare. But, as Ingvar asks, what is gained? The chance to do something insanely great. What is lost? Paralysis and fear. And about a thousand hours of development time.

TTAC remains as we know it “intact” with the exception that xyz as an example is an independent forum (blog) of which he is the editor/moderator.

TTAC is the “manufacturer” and xyz holds a “franchise” from the manufacturer and is an independent.

It could be interesting.

My favorite discussion system has been the http://www.type2.com list where members post comments or questions via e-mail. OF course some folks will complain that they get too much e-mail.

http://www.vortex.com has excellent forums but the readers are really spread out.

I’d like to have the current format supplemented by e-mailing ALL of the comments and ALL of the articles IF I subscribe to such a feature. That way i don’t miss a thing. Include some Google ads or something to create some cash flow.

Having too big a forum is going to be like GM having too many brands and the readers will be too spread out. That said it might lead to new life for old topics. In a week or two article comments dry up as the readers move on to the latest articles.

To many people forums are the complete opposite of this level of discourse. You can try and hedge it anyway you want, assure us of expert control and the like, but why does TTAC need a forum?

At the end of the day forums are nothing more than a place for people to express their opinions. The comments section to TTAC does that better, fairer, and more efficiently than any forum I have ever read. It seems to me like TTAC is offering its customers (if you will) a Buick for the same price as the Cadillac it already sells.