GM’s plans are for a handful of Volts in 2010, 10K in all of 2011 and then just 60K per year through 2014 or so. That’s less than a third of Toyota’s current Prius sales in the US and Toyota’s ramping up in 2009 (about double the production).

It just isn’t a competitive force in the marketplace until it gets some real quantity going.

Until that happens, the Prius will remain the standard by which all alternative fuel platforms are measured, and the overdue and shameful lateness of the Volt does nothing to make it unique or trend-setting when compared to the Prius or any other high FE hybrid for that matter.

But, I hope GM finally picks up a success in the Volt for a change. If they don’t… then, not to worry.
We have Toyota and Honda that will continue to show what leadership and forward thinking looks like.

The Honda Civic Hybrid engine is not run of the mill either. It also runs the Atkinson cycle and is fitted with two igniters (spark plugs) per cylinder. This obviously accomplishes the setting up of two ignition wavefronts simultaneously and also averages the latency of the ignition timing for improved combustion. The latency between the spark plug firing and the onset of chemical ignition has a bell curve defined statistically variable delay which Honda designers felt important enough to curtail. The cylinder bores were given a low friction cylinder wall treatment also.

The 1.3L capacity of this engine also helps the fe against the Toyota’s 1.5L. We could almost be asking why the HCH doesn’t do much better than it does, being as it happens to be a smaller vehicle as well.

Stated differently, how much fe benefit should an extra MGSet offer? 2 MPG? 4, 6, 10 or more?
Not a lot if Toyota and GM are still putting an automobile engine into what is strictly a genset application. We have yet to see optimised arrangements for this function.
When 2 cylinder engines are direct driving 9000rpm generators in full series hybrids I think we will start seeing 80mpg vehicles but 1.4-1.6L engines can only do so much however sophisticated the rest of the powertrain may be.

On the hiway the Prius “platform potential” should be high because of the ability to suppress engine rpms. Using the two servos to force the engine into a high torque low rpm mode at all times, engine friction should go down substantially. That is the underlying theory. The problem with that is – it comes with higher losses than anyone cares to admit. Let’s run thru it (yeah our eyes are not glazed yet)

A high torque scenario will see 6.6Hp/10mph coming off the PSD ring gear. All extra power not needed to propel the vehicle is converted to electric power by MG2 and fed back to MG1. We can forget the NiMH battery if fully charged. It doesn’t enter the situation while cruising.

From this when the vehicle is cruising at 50mph, say, a total of 33Hp should be transmitted by the PSD from its ring with some returned by MG2 electrically back to MG1, and then on to the sun gear of the PSD. MG1 needs to become a motor to direct drive the sun gear. This is the exact opposite from acceleration and hill climbing where MG1 behaves as a generator extracting power from that sun gear and feeding it to MG2.

Continuing with the 50mph cruise : -
If the road wheels need 8Hp then 33-8 or 25 Hp has to circulate the system. The engine has to supply the 8Hp plus the losses of the PSD plus the combined losses of generating and motoring 25Hp. If the electrical machines achieve 95% each and the PSD 90%, then 20% loss or 5Hp is incurred. There is also the 12.5% loss of the three stage transaxle reducer carrying the 8HP to the wheels as well to factor in.

Incidentally you will find :
… very interesting read. They’ve got other Prius reports there too.
Courtesy of Hobbit at Yahoo Prius_Technical_Stuff #12022

The total loss to enable 7 Hp to reach the wheels is therefore 6 Hp or an efficiency of 50%.
Perhaps the torque loading on the engine could be reduced but that would cause engine speed to rise and increase its frictional losses.

The HSD exists to off load the inverter with parallel mechanical feed to the wheels during acceleration but there is no free lunch and as we see the cruising efficiency takes a hit.
T2

“KevinH, that is a fundamental difference not a just “big difference”. Almost the difference between gunpowder and dynamite I would say.”

That may be so from a “platform potential” perspective but the real-world fuel economy performance does not make the lack of an MGSet that dramatic. In fact, I have yet to see even 1% of the 2004 or 2005 Prius fitted with a PHEV pack. So what is all this extra potential buying me and the other 1.2 million Prii owners?

Stated differently, how much fe benefit should an extra MGSet offer? 2 MPG? 4, 6, 10 or more?

As shown in several mileage databases, the Prius II is only edging the gen 2 HCH by less than 2 MPG’s in combined driving. Heck I would expect the Prius to basically cream the HCH in fe.
That is why I doubt many people will consider those technology differences as significant… At least enough to parallel your “gun powder and dynamite” analogy.

Now on the Prius we have way more KW/h to the MGSets, an excellent Atkinson ICE, a less lossy PSD instead of a crappy CVT and a deeper pack to do some real EV… and with all this I would expect us to do far better. Then why don’t we?

In my view, the IMA is different and more minimalistic when compared to HSD but it holds its own quite well and if Honda can bring the prices down even further then I am willing to upgrade my Prius at a later moon to whatever gives me the best eco+$ edge.

Yes, and it’s called ‘freedom of choice’ what this country was founded upon.

You are right. No-one asks for payback on a NAV unit, or A/C, or a moonroof, or mag wheels.

But ask for the hybrid option and a lot of people come shooting out fom under rocks and start to admonish. “you’ll never get your money back on that” as if we now have to defend our choice.

Keeping your car for a long time is a good idea – makes a lot of sense. My Toyota Corolla went nearly 14 yrs before repairs started to escalate. Since many fixed costs don’t change with age why lavish them on rusty iron. A new muffler system costs the same whether the car is 4yrs or 14yrs old. Licensing the same also.

The same quandry exists with television. Do I watch a pay movie on a downconverted HD signal to a 20yr old 19″ crt or do I get a 52″ widescreen and see all the signal I am paying for.

A lot of us, while are not particularly attracted by V6 turbo’s, think the idea of a high mileage vehicle with low emissions has both personal and societal paybacks to make it worth pursuing. Toyota and Honda decided to build a 21st century vehicle but there are still many people who want to live in the 20th century with an automatic or manual clutched stepped ratio transmission along with an engine which needs two sets of cylinder heads. And that is freedom of choice.

T2

Obviously there are other factors affecting your car buying than financial reasons. Even though you contend that it’s what makes the most financial sense.

Someone else put it better than I when they wrote
” The enigma that is the Prius is in the complexity of its simplicity ”

the only big difference is the # of MGsets

KevinH, that is a fundamental difference not a just “big difference”. Almost the difference between gunpowder and dynamite I would say.

Finally the Gen II Civic only been out less than three years, let’s see where they are in another three. In balance I might say that even the majority of Prius are yet to exceed three years old so battery aging due to the Calendar effect is still unknown although aging through cycling has proved negligible. Then, even with a seriously degraded battery the Prius will still yield most of the benefits of hybridisation whereas the Honda almost none. The Honda will, however, always have the advantage of that 1.3L engine over the 1.5L of the Prius.

I hope I haven’t come off here sounding too smug but I am going to leave it at that.
T2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcf9Z-XUXBc

The HSD system complex? In what way? If anything it is a model of simplicity and elegant engineering… starting with the PSD.

The IMA system is “spectacularly underwhelming”? Come on! The hybrid topology of both cars although different is virtual matched by the same architectural components and the only big difference is the # of MGsets, PSD vs CVT and battery density (even the pack’s manufacturer is the same) and of course the governing software (HSD vs IMA). That is it!

Is it any wonder both cars score so close in real world combined mileage despite the IMA’s handicap in urban driving versus the HSD full hybrid powerhouse?

You clearly never driven the Civic Hybrid to know that the 1.3L is already too small for the task, especially without electric assist.

Honda CVT’s not going past 100K without issues? Your info is seriously lacking and outdated. The gen 1 HCH had SOME issues and those are well known. The gen 2 HCH’s are base lining quite well and many are already exceeding the 100K mark without any issues. And for your information all upcoming Honda hybrids will be CVT equipped as proof that they are now very reliable and dependable.

The Volt? It is still wishware and let us hope that IF it EVER gets released that it can at least match the production numbers of the Civic Hybrid 2 in its first year run (38K units in 2006).

Until that happens, only Honda and Toyota will remain planted in the hybrid playing field as they have been for the last 9 years.

There seems to be only one guy over there calling the shots and he’s clueless. I’m not going to go after the shortcomings of the IMA system here. That is not to say that I’m overjoyed with the complexity of the Toyota Hybrid Synergy drive either but the IMA to me is spectacularly underwhelming. And I don’t give credit for the 4000 sales/month of the Civic Hybrid. A lot of those are either uninformed or would-be Prius buyers who couldn’t wait any longer. The fact is the IMA failed at both ends of the market, with the Accord and Insight, and replacing the single 10kw motor with a single 30kw as they intend is not going to improve things a whole lot.

For this new Honda Hybrid, I wonder how the term “dedicated hybrid ” identifies the new system to the previous IMA system ? I don’t think it does. There is no difference. They simply want to drop the Honda Civic Hybrid variant so that the chassis for the hybrid and gasoline powertrains can go their separate ways for what they might need to do later. The fact remains that whatever they do, a single motor assist doesn’t compare with the advantage of decoupling the engine from the wheels as the VOLT and Prius systems are able to do with their two powerful electrical machines. When the Volt takes to the road in 2010 Honda better have something like it or play second fiddle to Toyota and GM.

In the matter of the CVT. Electrical CVTs with two motors (PRIUS HSD) are vastly superior in their range and durability. Mechanical devices have inferior wear characteristics that electrical devices do not. They also need clutches and reversing gear that electrical CVTs do not.

Mechanical CVTs have been declared unsuitable for new designs in industry for more than thirty years because of control and maintenance issues. Like manual and automatic transmissions they are very much last century technology. I would be surprised if many Civic Hybrids reach 100k miles without a CVT problem.

Actually it wouldn’t take much engineering to make the Insight powertrain into a series hybrid using existing technology. They need to install an induction motor transaxle. The CVT needs dismantling from the 3-cyl engine block and the generator needs rewiring for 7000rpm rather than its present 900rpm.
An electronic inverter will give the punch that the CVT failed to and there will be plenty of power to haul a 4-dr sedan and thereby attract attention particularly from the 20,000 buyers who were looking at the Prius.

The simple fact is that a 1.3L 4-cyl in the Hybrid Civic can only do so much in fuel economy. It is the smaller engines in the sub one liter class that will get the high mileage that people want. To make them drivable they have to have the flexibility that only an electric transmission can give. Otherwise Honda may as well release the Civic Hybrid’s 1.3L engine in a non hybrid and at least save us the hybrid premium.

Toyota is also going off in the wrong direction just a bit if they intend to go with the – new for 2007 – “R” engine. The 1ZR-FE 1.6L which will probably give 94Hp in Atkinson trim as the 1ZR-FXE. I don’t see how double VVt-i, with camming authority now extended to the exhaust valving, is going to improve mpg compared to the original 1.5L. For a start there will be more friction in those 80.5mm bores than the 75mm bores of the previous engine. Again, Toyota is still putting an automobile engine into what is strictly a genset application just like GM. We have yet to see optimised arrangements for this function.

So strangely, we will have only two serious competitors in the form of the GM VOLT and the Toyota Prius that are pushing the technology barrier. It will be interesting to see if GM cannot afford to risk at least a 1.3Kwhr Li-ion battery installation to price this vehicle into Prius territory. I don’t feel early adopters for the Volt in the PHEV style will be many. And aren’t those converted Prius still “parked” ?

There is also the possibility of another team within GM fielding a batteryfree Volt as Lutz has mentioned. Imagine a highspeed genset to produce 140Hp with a fraction of the weight of a Tesla powerpack and cost I might add. Most of the advantages of hybridisation without the bulk and cost of a $16,000 battery.
T2

While the Honda IMA does not allow you to “run silent, run deep” like the Toyota Hybrids, it has fewer parts that can break, weighs less, has less transmission losses, and still helps where it really counts, accelerating up to cruise speed where the low drag coefficient is matched to the internal combustion engine.

The Civic Hybrid is NOT a mild hybrid. It is a power assist hybrid. There are diffrences between the two and I beg you to learn about it.

Do a search on Wikipedia under the topic “Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain” to get started.

psarhjinian:

The second generation Civic Hybrid can run on electric power only. Yes, the camshaft is still spinning while in the cylinder de-activation mode but the car can be easily placed in EV powered operation as many Civic Hybrid owners know. You obviously don’t. The only BIG difference between it and the Prius is that it cannot start in EV when warmed up in S4.

Since the HCH-2 introduction in Canada, the Prius has been much more expensive than the Civic Hybrid especially if you are forced to pick package B in order to get the basic set of air bags the Civic Hybrid has. The difference in my experience has been far more than $3,000 and often bordering on the 5K-7K mark. Only recently has Toyota lowered the base package to dip below the 30K mark.

The Prius is NOT that much more fuel efficient than the Civic Hybrid as the GreenHybrid.com database easily confirms. On the city the Prius remains the undisputed champion but on the highway you would do well not to challenge an experienced HCH driver.

Speaking of emissions and safety the Civic Hybrid has a few aces you are purposely ignoring and yes, VSA has been offered on the HCH-2 in most coiuntries except in the north American market. That will change for 2009 in NA.

And please don’t get me started on all the other annoying things the Prius has. On their own they can make the limited trunk of the HCH look trivial to some people. Besides, the Camry hybrid has exactly the same trunk space as the HCH and the Camry Hybrid is a much larger car. The altima hybrid trunk is even smaller than both.
In a pinch, the Civic hybrid can carry very hefty and large items in its rear flat floor. Sure you lose rear passenger space in doing so but so does the Prius when I go for a home depot run and I fold its rear seats.

I understand, Psarhjinian, that the 2009 Civic Hybrid is going to finally get ESC just in time to be totally put into the shadow by the as-yet-unnamed Honda Prius – whoops I mean Honda copy-of-Prius-without-silent-mode.

I’m still considering one, mind you.

If the car was cheaper, I’d consider it as well. Its a good in-city car if you can accept and work around the cargo limitations. Now that we’re not trucking a stroller around, that 10 cubic foot trunk isn’t the limitation it once was.

But it’s still too expensive for what it is (about $27K Canadian, before taxes and F+PDI) for a car that doesn’t really offer much better mileage than a basic Civic. If it was a wagon, offered better mileage, had more features or was branded as an Acura, it might be an easier sell.

I’m still considering one, mind you.

Then again, if Honda would sell CNG Civics in my area, I’d really have to consider that.

I’m wishing that Hyundai would get off the dime and sell a CNG HYBRID Elantra in the US. They are developing a gas-powered Elantra hybrid, for sale in South Korea by next year, it has a fairly firm on-sale date, too.

Yeah, I have natural gas at my house despite living in a rural area (we specifically bought with the realization that propane is double the cost of natural gas, when heating a home – and living in northern Michigan, this is no small potatoes). In fact, our house is the last house on the natural gas pipe-line in our area.

why would anybody need stability control in a Prius or Civic Hybrid?

Stability control isn’t just for overpowered rear-drive sportscars with bad balance.

Granted, it’s most effective on, say, a all-season-equipped 911 in the snow, but it’s a good technology for any car. It’s a better safety technology than extra mass or multiple airbags:
* It doesn’t weigh anything; it’s all software trickery
* The best accident is the one you avoid. ESC can help with that.

The Civic doesn’t offer ESC at all; the Prius does. Now, if only Toyota wasn’t gouging the hell out of Prius customers in Canada.

Except that “normal” driving in the Prius yields close to what the ePA numbers are. Hypermiling is interesting to…hypermilers (which I alternate with fast drivivng), but for the sake of my evaluations, I like the current EPA combined number; it tends to reflect (normal) reality quite well.

For me (and I suspect quite a few others on this board), lack of a stick shift is a non-starter. I’d rather pay more and have something fun to drive.

Get a mt Honda Insight – more fun than a barrel of monkeys. Except you’ll be buying used.

In addition to the points made previously, you would not be able to sell a gas-only Prius with the engine it’s got. It would take nigh 30 seconds to get up to highway speed. The presence of the battery is what allows you to get away with such a small gas engine. Can you tattoo that on the inside of your eyelids, please?

The Prius synergy drive is a great technology for variable speed city traffic but isn’t likely to be as efficient as a conventional stick-shift for highway cruising

Not true. The Prius’ HSD is actually more efficient at just about any speed than a manual because:

1. The CVT isn’t locked into a set of fixed ratios and can, far more quickly, choose an optimum ratio to charge the battery and/or move the car.

2. The hybrid system is always providing assist, even on the highway. Take a look at one of the only cars that comes with a manual, automatic or hybrid powertrain: the Toyota Camry. At highway speed, the hybrid is still beating both the AT and MT-equipped four-cylinder Camry by a good 1.0L/100km or more, despite lugging around a good amount more mass.

3. Most manual transmissions have a stupidly low final drive and/or lack a very tall overdrive gear. CVTs can usually run a very, very tall ratio at cruise.

This is a long-standing hybrid myth even among enthusiasts: hybrid powertrains are always supplying power to the wheel as long as there’s charge in the battery to do so. The difference is more dramatic in the city because there’s more inefficiencies in city driving that the hybrid powertrain can compensate for, but the batteries are not dead weight on the highway. In fact, supplying assist while running is the only kind of help the current IMA Civic or BAS Malibu/Aura/Vue can offer.

But yes, they’re still no fun to drive.

The EPA MPG statistic is less important than real life mileage. Real life mileage depends on your driving style, in particular the amount of hyper miling you are willing to engage in.
So, assuming a fair amount of hypermiling, wouldn’t the Prius be far ahead of the Honda?