I was looking for a cheap grocery getter/commuter hatchback. Whos ideas was it to put 17inch V rated tired on Mazda 3s? Decided not to get it because I would have to replace the tires immediately for the winter. For many buyers in this class the cost of replacing 4x 17 inchers exceed on paycheck.

. . . and some drivers get 10 mpg in a V6 Highlander. Hearsay mileage figures are not directly comparable to your own results!

Why didn’t you look at the model with 16″ tires instead? I like the way my 17’s handle and look, but I’d get the 16’s if I were buying a new one today. The new 16’s look much better than the new “snowflake” 17’s. Tire cost and availability certainly is a benefit of the 16’s too, but not a deal breaker given that it’s a minor part of my total operating costs. I run studded 16’s on black steelies in the winter anyway.

“The Civic is a bloated pig, and the Si is overpriced and just a watered down RSX Type-S.”

That’s just plain wrong – not only is Si better tuned, but it also has an LSD, which RSX never got. By that logic, an RSX was actually a watered-down Si – or, rather, Si is a hardcore version of the RSX. And Civic is a “bloated pig” – compared to what? Civics of old? Yeah, when you add safety stuff, more airbags, crumple zones, and electronics, your car will get bigger and heavier. Civics aren’t that bloated, by the way: 4-door Si weighs around 2950 pounds, and a 4-door Civic LX weighs 2685 with a manual – almost the same as a 4-door 1st gen Integra (87-89), while being larger than said Integra, with far more features. I’m not seeing how this is a “pig”.

“And the Accord, there aren’t words to describe how bad the Honda boys are going astray. The Camry, despite its bugs, is sportier than the 4-door Accord”

I drove a new Camry and a new Accord, as well as Camrys and Accords from the previous generation. What you said is just completely wrong – Camrys drive like a Buick, completely disconnected from the road with feather-light steering and no road feel. Accords are and have always been far more connected to the road, not as much as BMWs obviously, but miles beyond any Camry in handling and sportiness.

The automatic transmission literally refused to shift, and when it did, there was no power to be had – so every freeway merging maneuver was a life-threatening experience, which went sort of like this: slam on the gas so the car starts shifting – rpms go up, engine screams, yet no acceleration is present – push pedal to the floor – listen to engine scream as you slowly approach 55 mph – try to dodge traffic which is moving at 65-70 and merge without getting run over. Terrible, terrible car.

The 2009 Corolla/Matrix will be more of the same…a snoozer, especially the Corolla, which is amazing since the Matrix is heavier and taller.

The ease of which a Corolla washes out when making a U-turn is insane. My friend calls the one his dad bought for him in college “The Co-Roll-Over”. But anyway, Toyota knows a winning formula to harvest money, and the Corolla is not a “car” but a money harvester. So, expect the appliance tradition continued.

The XRS models, with 4 wheel wishbone suspension (other lesser models base and “S” with have the rear twist tube and MacPherson struts) will handle well, but with lack of feedback, what’s the point? I’ve read Edmund’s test of a pre-production model. For those that hate driving, it will just mean the “missery” will end sooner.

The 2.4L sucks, its tuned for torque only, which in NYC or something, is OK, but on the open roads of suburbia and the hinterlands, it will feel like the car has ED when you take the liberty to spin the mill up past 3500 RPM for spirited, let-your-hair-down spurt to the grocery store. And the all important gas mileage will go to hell and the MSRP will be well over $20,000.

Personally, I’d buy just the base car and relish the fuel economy and utility (Matrix) and convincing the boss that I’m a responsible member of society when its decided to use my car to go out to lunch; I have another car for pleasurable driving. But Toyota knows its market. America wants boring cars, so boring cars it shall have.

The Supra, Celica, Corolla GT-S, etc. were cool, but not profitable on the grand scale that Toyota operates today. It cannot afford to be a niche maker like it was in the glory days of the 80’s. Even what were then seen as stodgy, like the Cressida, are in retrospect, 10 x more interesting than the sportiest Camry SE. BTW, why did Toyota cease with RWD and I-6 engines? BMW is now left alone, when at one time, Toyota has a proud heritage of I-6 and RWD power. Oh my, how the big T has mellowed out and gone grey…sad, sad.

But, Honda, you may laugh, but I see weaknesses in your armour. All the North American only models are noteably inferior to their 80s and 90s counterparts in the quality department. (Not as bad as Toyota, but nothing to brag about either) The Civic is a bloated pig, and the Si is overpriced and just a watered down RSX Type-S. And the Accord, there aren’t words to describe how bad the Honda boys are going astray.

The Camry, despite its bugs, is sportier than the 4-door Accord (and only 5-sp auto when Toyota set the bar with 6sp auto? Com’on Honda, you’re better than that…) And full size car!? Who said we needed the Accord Victoria? The 190bhp 4 pot 2.4L is a jewel of engineering, but when lashed to this pig, is a pig.

But the coupe seems very sporty, but its Dodge Charger looks will keep me away. And for $30,000+, I’d would reach out to a Infinity G37 if at all possible, at least you’ll get RWD and better looks.

Even the exalted Odyssesy minivan is getting complaints by folks who owned the first gen and complained the new one is too soft and of lesser quality depsite leather and all that baloney.

The only two Hondas I’d buy are the ones not made for the US market…the Fit and the Euro/JDM Accord badge engineered-for-’merians Acura TSX. But I fear they too will be polluted. Test reports of the new Fit in Japan say it is bigger and softer (does this trend sound familiar xB owners?)

And Acura is adopting that “chrome bird beak” design motif thats hideous to me. The interiors, once tasteful like the current TSX, are now going the way of the Star Wars Civic, only with more chrome. Its like the engineers ditched their calculators and watched rap videos for 90 hours, got hipnotized by the spinners, then went back to designing cars.

The “s” model has optional 17″ wheels. But it also has a bigger engine, higher price, etc. Its the wrong car for this situation.

I’m not saying all Corolla owners will flock to Mazda dealers (nor should they) but you can get a 3 that’s just as basic as the Corolla. (Except it has disc brakes, IRS and a nicer interior.)

Thx for the info, so far so good with my Whirlpool and my brother has had one even longer with no trouble…so my finger’s are crossed too! ;)

Funny you mention the Sony thing, as my family has always bought Sony electronics and always (almost) been amazed at how well they work and how long they last…….until my parent’s bought a Sony DVD player a few years ago. Again, just after the warr. was up they we’re watching a DVD when the screen froze, then BANG!!!they hear a loud pop and see smoke pouring out of their video cabinet. I helped them pull the thing apart to find a capacitor had blown up inside this thing. Figured it was probably just a fluke failure until I checked the web to find that LOTS of people with this model had the same problem, and that Sony would not fix them for free after the warr period. They bought a “something-else” DVD player which has worked great so-far.

Have to say that after working on Hondas for 16 years, they have more problems than they used to in the “glory days” of the late 80’s-early 90’s. My Dad still owns an ‘88 Accord LX-I that literally didn’t need any non-maintenance repairs until around 100K when the axle boots finally split. Contrast that with his ‘06 Ridgeline that had a rear strut start puking fluid after only 1500miles.

I’ve got an ‘04 TSX 6speed that has been very good, but I’m amazed at the rattles the thing seems to have…..maybe we just expect more than we used to?

Guess it means you’re getting old when you keep saying to anyone who’ll listen “They don’t make ‘em like they used to!”

Anyway, the point of all this personal story-telling is, the poor Corolla (and Matrix) are tasked with the more important job of providing solid, though not nearly a solid compared to the 1980’s, transportation where practicallity and durability are the cheif critera. For those of us that have demanding careers and stuff, this is a sad truth, at least Mon-Fri. (Sat-Sun, the Matrix gets alot of time providing shade to my driveway :) ) I would not subject the TSX to the so-called paved inner-city roads and idiots out and about when doing the 9 to 5 thang.

BTW next commuter-banger will be the Honda Fit, Honda Civic sucks…its heavy, the accel is not peppy, despite the numbers, and the Star Wars interior with digital speedo is not for me. And that the handling is so good actually serves to highlight the engine having only modest power. Also, the trunk space is embarassing. (There’s that practical side coming out again) The Fit is amazing, with only a 1.5L engine and on paper, modest acceleration, it just has that “mojo” torque curve as you rev it up, I’m speechless, and you don’t have to be an engineer to appreciate that. Oh, and is a wagon (hence “Fit”), so on second though, come on out Mr. Practical…

The point being, a 3:4 CRT fullscreen television will get you by, and I guess some don’t mind watching a widescreen dvd on a fullscreen television (the ‘mail-slot’ view with the black bars above and below) with the knowledge that their fullscreen television has a better reliability reputation than the LCD.

I bought an $89 19″ TV along with a $35 VCR and $25 DVD player about five years ago. That and the converter thingie that makes them all work together is all I really need.

Most Corolla buyers have the same attitude towards cars. Spend 12k to 15k (depending on the year you got the thing), drive it for 12 years, and then consider moving up to a Camry.

Zero driving excitement. But it does offer one less worry and a fair bit of comfort for those who could really care less.

Corolla is sensible shoes. Its a lot like buying 500 dollar tv instead of 2500 dollar plasma even if you can afford one easy.

Really depends, Seth. The Corolla is the $2500 plasma in its price class.

Or its the hypothetical $500 TV with less features than other $500 TVs. And you can get the same TV for less money elsewhere, just without the brand name.

Speaking of, has Sony’s home electronic equipment went from “worth every penny” to overpriced in the past decade?

Man I hope not. Bought a brand new Maytag fridge several years ago. What a piece of s**t!!! Just after the 1 year warr was up it started puking water into the refrigerator cabinet. Payed to get it fixed (cracked plastic evap. housing) took two trips to fix because they ordered the wrong part. A year later the exact same part cracked again, (this time replaced it myself) then within a month the auto defrost timer stuck on and burned a hole through the side of the freezer cabinet. After perusing the ‘net I found out that many people were having the same (or worse) problems with their “reliable” Maytag appliances.

Pitched it and bought a Whirlpool….so far so good (3 years).

IMHO, buying stuff based on “perceived quality” can be dangerous.

A few points from the comments above…

Why would anyone buy a Mazda3 with an auto transmission. Learn to drive people, and life and fuel economy will get better I assure you.

Those who have said there is little difference in the overall driving dynamics of a 3 and a Rock a Rolla – with all due respect, were you awake when you were driving the car(s)?

Toyota’s value proposition is in serious doubt lately folks (Sajeev is right on), and this “can do no wrong” attitude almost universally shared is a delusion. As the price of cars, even driving appliances goes up, many folks will seek little details and differences that maybe were not as crucial before, such as standard safety features, sporty handling, the latest electro-gizmos, ABS, daytime running lights, progressive styling, etc.

At a mere 22K miles our Toyota minivan is seriously lurching and lunging on uptake – could either be minor computer adjustment or something mechanical (read expensive). As someone who bought this van on reputation alone, the stars have fallen from my eyes folks. The new Big Dog is really no different than the old dogs, the target is on TOYOMOTO’s back now.

The new 2009 Mazda6 is a stunning piece of automobile design and engineering…

http://www.thecarconnection.com/zoom-image.asp?/images/gallery/12217_RXOABNQJUOBOX.jpg

CamCorders beware!

And the Mazda2 coming stateside will eat the Yaris and Versa for breakfast (maybe not the Fit which is a fine car for sure).

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/07/02/new-mazda2-pricing-announced/

It is time here in the US we discovered what the Canadians and Europeans already know – Mazda (and possibly Subaru to a lesser degree) is the only real challenge to the Honda and Toyota segment monopolies. As an aside, the new Accord is a visual abomination IMHO (on a Sebring-like scale).

Great review Sajeev. I agree 100% that the generation-old reflex to buy one’s next Toyota should be questioned. In most segments, there are a lot of better choices out there, for less money.

Did I mention my 2008 Mazda3 cost $1500-2000 less than an equally apportioned Rock a Rolla? The left-side of the brain part of the equation.

In this segment folks, volume be damned, Do yourself and even Grandma a favor and get a better car!

Your dealers may not have been lying to you. Toyota now owns all their previous distributors except two. The two in the SE. However, if I understand correctly, the distributors still exist and do business as seperate entities.

The distributors often decide that certain sets of options are the best way to go, and they will often use their power to load up desirable cars for more profit. I did a lot of business with GST, and they played all sorts of games, including ordering only a single stripper car of some models and then loading the rest for the entire region.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you can’t find what you want in a Toyota. It is one of their worst atributes as a company.

Thank you for bringing something up that I forgot. Making these safety features standard is a no brainer if Toyota is truly committed to Continuous Improvement…or any other management buzzword associated with their excellent production system.

Adding more standard features to a long in the tooth design justifies its price premium on an ongoing basis. Not to mention Toyota insists they see Hyundai as a serious threat.

If that’s true, isn’t the up sell to standard ABS a no brainer for Management? Why give Hyundai any breathing room in the first place?

It is, I was alarmed to find, extremely difficult to get a Corolla with ABS or with the side airbags that are necessary to push it from a “Poor” to an “Acceptable” side-impact rating. They are nominally available as stand-alone options on all Corollas, but two of the local dealers (admittedly, ones who had already squandered their credibility) tried to insist that neither was available on the base CE, at least “not in this region.”

I’m now trying hard to convince my friend to give up on the Corolla and look at a Civic, Fit, or 3 instead. The Corolla is dynamically back of the pack, and Toyota sure isn’t going to win any prizes for customer service.

He also said that you could find better cheaper alternatives than the Corolla if you opened up your mind. Is that really any surprise given the “Toyota reputation premium” that’s charged and that this is the oldest design on the econo-car market?

Now that you mention it, maybe it is a surprise. How often does someone give a critical pricing/content analysis of a boring car amongst its boring competition? Not often if you don’t read TTAC.

When this generation Corolla came out in 2003 I thought it was one of the best choices on the market. A few years later many other makes re-designed the competition and the Corolla fell behind. The review reflects that well.

And the 2003 Elantra sure as heck wasn’t up to par in design (speaking in terms of an appliance, of course) of the Corolla. But the tables are turning, and the old design got what it deserves.

The only quibble I’ve got with an otherwise stellar review is the “Pointless” moniker at the ratings section. Can a very reliable car that has class leading fuel economy and ride quality really be considered pointless? (Unless you’re referring to the S trim specifically?)

I did the review with the S’s window dressings in mind, and I don’t think the CE is pointless. Its certainly a better value, and that’s worth another star too.