Secondly, in alot of places now, you cant dispose of computers in regular garbage because of the circuit boards. Well what happens when your Idrive has to go to the recycler? Who knows.

Lastly hybrids are NOT the answer. where are they going to dump all the battery “juices” once the batteries are spent? that icky stuff is not only difficlt to recycle but expensive as well…like PCB’s were in the past and ended up being dumped in landfills by dishonest recyclers. I would rather drive a plain ULEV car that gets 34 miles to the gallon than a hybird which gets 40 with a superfund site in the back seat.

Why didn’t they use one of the newer, more sensitive GPS chipsets (i.e. SiRFStar III) which doesn’t require a roof-mounted antenna? Supposedly something about lead times for automotive electronics being 2-3 years.

If GM can retrofit (and, in this case, I do mean “retro”) a navigation system into the W-Body Grand Prix and G-Body Lucerne, they can do it to anything. Designing a new car on a four-year-old platform without a navigation system (I know it’s a depreciation nightmare and useless for most folks, but in the automotive biz “keeping up with the Fords” is very important) is nearly unforgiveable.

I am not sure I agree that the common definition would include all those countries, but it doesn’t really matter now that we understand each other better.

I believe China and Russia are called “mixed economies.”

My definition may be a little stronger on the rights stuff, but at a minimum you have to have some protection against the taking of your property and person from the others and the state. Otherwise, is your ownership of an economic entity real?

Interesting information thank you! HD trucks in the late 70’s were required to have ABS brakes under MVSS121 if my memory is correct. It was interesting to hear air brakes get into ABS mode, and most of the system were de activated.

kevin, open source certainly makes any and all manufacturers very nervous. The EU is applying a lot of pressure to make the diagnostics available to the aftermarket and independents.

Most German cars have a “continuous loop” when you want to lower a power window the signal from the window switch gores through the entire car.

Dealers pay manufacturers substantial monthly fees to operate and have updates for the diagnostic equipement. In many instances the equipement is leased to the dealer, the manufacturer owns the equipement, best way for manufacturers to control the distribution of the equipement.

Some European vehicles use a system called Osek http://www.osek-vdx.org/

Most people think of Capitalism as private ownership of economic entities and markets for exchange of goods/services. Your definition explicitly adds in concepts like Civil Society and Rule of Law.

By the common definition, countries like China, Russia, Singapore and Cameroon are capitalist. By your definition, they are not.

I would also remind you of the dictum that “politics is the art of the possible”. For example, I agree that CAFE is a clumsy way to reduce vehicular fuel use. But if it’s the only way we can produce that outcome and the outcome is better than doing nothing, sometimes we have to not let the great be the enemy of the adequate.

Actually, the 1971-73 Imperial had an optional ABS system. They called it Sure-Brake. It was developed by Bendix.

While I will not agree that it is a classic straw man, it is a generalization and a broad brush. However, it isn’t without merit. Your broad brush of capitalism is far worse than my bundling of environmentalists. (China?)

There are exceptions to every rule, but when we say environmentalist these days we generally exclude classical liberals and conservative conservationists. We have to have terms to have a discussion.

Furthermore, I am not a complete laissez-faire proponent. There is a place for regulation to avoid exactly the sort of things you (and carguy) mention. Since you mentioned libertarians, there is a whole school of libertarianism devoted to pollution problems. It’s all about your rights stopping when they step on mine. The smoking debate is a classic set of problems for these people and so are polluting cars.

The problem comes when those on the green side attempt to legislate or litigate. If you are pro consumption tax, then at least you are not hypocritical. Most of the environmentalists are though. How do they vote? What do the stand for?

Taking away the right to pollute frivolously is not the same as using “extraneous” costs as an excuse to run peoples lives. Mandating solutions is the biggest sin. Taking of property without adequate compensation is right up there as well. CAFE as written is just idiotic. No system is going to be perfect, and trying to limit people’s ability to use too much of any one resource is NOT a solution at all. It won’t work, and it will destroy the system we have. Sure tax gas, but don’t tell people they can’t own an SUV.

These days, it is my opinion, that they all to often stand for taking precipitous action which is anti market and anti private property whenever they see a dead squirrel. They are too short sighted to see that when they attack private property rights they attack their own right to make an attack at all. No government without decent private property rights has ever protected dissent with any vigor at all.

If one can make a reasonably good estimate of the extraneous costs of a behavior, and come up with a reasonably simple way to tax it, then I can support that. A fuel tax is a great example. A poor one is an upfront fee on circuit boards without a refund at the recycling center. Even worse is a class action tort suit that acheives nothing but enriching a few lawyers while taking away the assets needed for the offenders to fix the problem. And the real devil is the regulation that is so ridiculous that no one can understand it and needs to hire several professionals just to figure out if they are in compliance.

If you can think of something better than capitalism that man has come up with, then I would like to hear about it. Capitalism exists everywhere to some degree. Even the Star Trek guys couldn’t really get rid of it when they tried. It’s easier for them to break the laws of physics as we know it than to explain any society working without some sort of capitalism.

However, what I call a capitalist system depends on two things – private property rights and a reasonably fair/predictable justice system. It’s a sliding scale, but they ain’t got it in China or Russia. Singapore is a weird combination, but they seem to like it.

Carguy,

I am not saying what you say I am. As stated, immediate self interest is not the best decider. It’s no better than government decision making (though it’s hard to tell the difference any more).

Also, what good is it to make a car recyclable if it isn’t recycled? Would it be better to make a car that lasted 50 years, and then got 80% recycled, or better to make one that lasts 10 and is 95% recycled?

Your comment on european energy usage is classic. What matter is it how much energy some one uses? Energy is virtually unlimited. The universe is not so crowded that we should care. What we care about is pollutions effects on people and our environment. That is it. The rest is crap.

I am all about Can Do. Exactly what Can Do plan do the environmentalists have that will effectively improve our lives? I will be glad to consider them. Most of them seem to be of the “You stop doing what I don’t like and my life will be better” ilk. No thanks.

Lastly, don’t worry. I ain’t running for anything. Not even dog catcher.

Here in Silicon Valley I’ve never met anyone who works for GM. I do know people here who work for Toyota and Volkswagen.

I have not seen that, but I did see an E90 (5-Series) BMW spend 5+ hours in the dealership repair shop because the customer wanted a CD changer installed. I took about 20 minutes to install it, then about 5 hours to reprogram all of the onboard computer modules to recognize the CD changer, transfer data to/from it and not freak out because it was there.

In contrast, installing a (BMW OEM) CD changer in the previous-generation E39 5-Series took about 10 minutes and it was immediately operational.

Everyone talks incessantly about how there needs to be a “black box” approach for easy upgrades later, but no one does anything. Far from it, the Tier Ones and automakers seem intent on so closely designing in everything that you can’t swap in a new stereo without ending up calling a tow truck.

Rumor has it that a certain tech company had to fly a bunch of media execs out to Germany, so that the media execs would promise not to sue DaimlerChrysler if they put a hard drive in their car stereos (hence, MyGig).

As for why they insist on selling $300 worth of consumer electronics as a $4000 option package, I don’t know — not sure if that’s all about market segmentation or throwing a bone to car salesmen … but I’ll get it back on the rebates anyway.

And how much extra does it cost GM to get someone to supply car stereos WITHOUT CD Drives for that ultra-cheap look?

Oh, and if you find yourself in a banquet room with a bunch of pontificating industry executives talking about high-falutin’ electronics, shout OPEN SOURCE! and watch the pandemonium break out.

Meanwhile, I just want a cheap car that has power windows.

I should also point out that when cars are recycled they re-use the components and they do not end up in a landfill – most German cars are designed to be recycled. Europeans also use a third less energy per capita than Americans and yet they seem to have a very good standard of living – I lived there for quite a few years and didn’t feel deprived of anything.

The notions that ‘everyone is just as bad as we are’ and that there are no alternatives to choose from is a fallacy, short sighted and also very out of character with the American way. Whatever happened to the ‘Can do’ attitude and innovation to solve problems?

First of all, by declaring “environmentalism is…” or “environmentalists are…” is classic ’straw-man’ arguing. I don’t think you can speak for a movement or a large group of people any more than I can. I consider myself an environmentalist and I favor consumption taxes.

Second, your assertion that capitalism is the best thing in the history of the planet shows a selective view of history and current events. You might think differently if you lived in Russia or China or Singapore (all places bristling with ‘capitalism’), or read books like ‘The Jungle’ or ‘Fast Food Nation’.

The simple fact is that capitalism has never been tried on this planet. We have always treated the planet like an infinite source for resources and an infinite dump for our garbage, when it is neither. Economic actors have always tried to socialize their costs while privatizing their profits. And it has almost always been government that has had to reign capitalism in from its worst excesses (especially abuses of labor, environment and democratic institutions).

To link this rant to the topic of the article, it was largely government mandates that forced automakers to turn, kicking and screaming, to electronic solutions for meeting pollution and safety requirements.

The market wouldn’t provide those solutions, because few car buyers will select ‘Not give neighbor’s kid asthma’ and ‘reduce ocean acidification’ on the option sheet and pay extra money for them. These are things we have to agree to do collectively outside the provenance of the market.

In fact, when we do collectively (through the actions of our government) insist that cars be safe, clean and fuel-efficient then the playing field is leveled. No automaker gets to sell its cars more cheaply by making them unsafe, dirty and gas-guzzling. Instead, innovation is sparked as they compete to meet those common requirements as efficiently as possible.

It is telling that one of the most recognized leaders in the environmental movement, Al Gore, got publicly embarrassed by the huge home(s) he powers and the limos and jets he uses. All the while telling us that the polar caps are melting and NY and Fla will be underwater. “Do as I say…” rules the day I guess.

You would think that a consumption tax would be the rallying cry for all environmentalists. But that would mean they would have to cut back as well. Can’t have that.

Where do you think old rusty cars end up? In large ships bound for China where they are smelted down and recycled. Not as much as you claim gets buried, there is a market for everything somewhere.

Timoted,
Please correct me if I’ve missed the boat, but in your first comment, you (rightly) draw attention to the fact that electrical components are not completely without penalty. The penalty being their potential damage to the environment when discarded. I think that this is a valid point, albeit a bit tangent to the original article. You go on, after being asked what the alternatives might be, to suggest such electronics-rich vehicles as hybrids, fuel-cell cars and Tesla Motor’s plug-in electric. Now, what cars have more potentially environmentally-damaging electrical components, a Prius, a Tesla Roadster, or a Corolla?

So, is the problem conventional cars, or is it a mis-informed public who (wrongly) throw these things into their garbage cans? Perhaps education and far-reaching recycling programs are the key? It seems that these things will become even more important as hybrids become more prevalent and they begin to reach the end of their useful life. Have you ever tried to throw things away in a land-fill in Sweden? You can’t. You have to recycle them.

If you are advocating hybrids, fuel-cells and plug-ins, it seems your beef is not with electrical components, but in their disposal.

Europe has a lot of differences to most of the US. If you go to parts of the US where they have things in common with the europeans, you generally find that they take much of the same measures of recycling, public transportation, and vehicle choice.

Almost all of europeans’ willingness to go along with their measures stems from high fuel taxes. At the same time, most of their ills come from similarly high income taxes. In the US, every good idea to help conservation is struck down by the left, who only want conservation to work by taking property away from “rich” people. Then they use phony stats to make everyone who is productive in the country feel they are “rich”. It’s not a lot different than the methodology used by the church to keep power for centuries.

I equate environmentalism with socialism for a good reason. The environmentalists use the government to attempt to force their ideas on the rest of us. If all they did was spread their faith like the other religions did, I would have no qualms. They talk about how if we ALL did what they want, the world would be so much better. Or, if we don’t we are doomed. That’s a religion. When you take it up with the legislature, or tie up the courts because of it, you are no different than a theocrat.

When you can show good results, people will generally go along. When you can tie the results directly to the actions, so that it works like capitalism, rather than autocracy, you will get great results. Making byzantine declarations and laws gets you nowhere except reelected because you showed you were concerned.

I have had it with care and concern and responsible. If you have a car that is more efficient while meeting people’s needs it will sell. If you have a better way to make the electronics that make the car more efficient, but won’t be a trash problem, then show us. If you have a way to recycle those electronics that is efficient, then by all means speak up.

Otherwise, you are just pontificating. You are reinforcing your own illusion that you are better than others. You are trying to take power and choice away from the market place. You are trying to destroy the best thing in the history of the planet – capitalism. Everywhere they have tossed out capitalism, they have created an ecological disaster.

When the environmentalists all start clamoring for consumption taxes over income taxes in order to more justly distribute the inherent costs of pollution and environmental damage, THEN I will accept that they are not anti-capitalism. Until then, they are just the latest flavor of totalitarian nonsense.

At that time M-B for its cooperation in the developement asked for and received exclusive use of Bosch ABS for 18 months. These exclusivities no longer exist, technology (electronics) migrates very quickly especially with the limited number of global suppliers.

Alternators replaced generators very quickly in the space of 2 years, electronic ingnitions with modules replaced ignition points quickly.

Manufacturers use electronics as a competitive advantage, and part of the value proposition.

However, that was outside the scope of my article.

Also, picture what the world would look like if the automotive electronics revolution had NOT occurred. Think how much smoggier our cities would be, how much more oil would be consumed and how many more people would be dead or maimed because of car crashes. Electronics eliminated a large portion of those negative consequences.

The subject of automotive recycling would probably make a great TTAC article. Perhaps you should submit the idea to Mr. Farago.

AGR, starlightmica, GS650G — You are foreshadowing the next 2 installments of the series (quit stealing my thunder! [joking])

windswords – That’s the problem for BMW, MBZ, Audi, etc. It’s getting harder and harder to stay ahead of their cheaper competitors.

and i know a few folks that drive Suburbans that voted for Gore, in fact the most liberal guy I know drives a 1985 truck that I am sure gets about 10mpg.
According to him as long as his portfolio grows he is not really concerned about the small stuff.