As for drugs themselves, while I can see the point in your (and the Libertarian) stance that it’s a huge waste of time and effort, I also know from 1/2 a century of life on planet earth, that if you don’t have “something like standards to live by” then all hell breaks loose.

Put another way, when I was a dad to a young toddler, I’d try my best to keep him from toddling over to the stove and reaching up, putting his hand on the hot burner.

That’s a short description of what a civilized society does for citizens by way of consensus; it’s pretty well agreed that illicit drugs are not-a-good-thing, and that plenty of lives are wrecked by them. So it’s best to try to discourage their use and that’s done by making it illegal (which entails punishment for lawbreaking).

Having been a Stephen Minister (look it up) I can tell you I’ve seen some really ruined lives and families directly attributable to illicit drug use, and it’s not pretty.

As for how society would be better off to not jail people caught dealing illicit drugs, I can’t help you there. I can’t see any way it’d be better. Certainly looking at nations, like Holland, where pretty much anything goes, tells me that it isn’t working out so well for them, either.

Likewise, I’ve seen ruined lives from alcohol, too; and I know the USA tried to ban alcohol and it didn’t work out well at all (the law of unintended consequences left us with the mafia).

So if the Libertarians win, and empty the prisons, and make drug dealing legal – will things get worse or better for the USA? I strongly suspect worse – but looking at the prior model as seen by alcohol and Prohibition, I can understand other people’s opinions that it may not be worse, but better.

“The UN has done the world a lot of good (and has dropped the ball a few times too). It just seems funny that in the last 8 years all of a sudden the UN is an issue with the United States.”

I can recommend a good book on this subject: Tower of Babel, by Dore Gold. I’m afraid the UN has droped the ball more than a few times.

“Off the rails”???
An opposition stance to the “War On Drugs” has been a Libertarian plank for quite some time. One might say that train would not run if not for that particular rail. Nothing typifies needless gov’t waste better than spending billions to lock up non-violent drug-offenders.

And you mistakenly assume “should” when a better word might be “can.”

True, that. The Constitution Party is the only party (other than perhaps the Libertarian Party?) which would ABOLISH the IRS and Federal Income Taxes, and place some small amounts of tariffs to replace them (because fewer overall taxes would be needed, if we keep the size of government down to Constitutionally correct and legally sanctioned size by limiting government to what it was intended to be and do). Imagine, keeping maybe 95% of what you earn. What a novel idea!

Of course, private charity would replace public charity. Am I wrong when I say Americans can be extremely generous? Surely I’m not wrong. Especially when we don’t have 50% of our pay stolen….

“So we could pay for our government by restoring this condition.”

True again. In fact, it is the recommended method as found best by our founding fathers.

“Certainly it stinks when someone’s allowed to sneak in ahead of someone who’s been waiting for years, decades !

But why were they having to wait ?

Because there are only so many slots open each year for legal immigrants, because there is an annual quota.

Why is there a quota ?

I think history shows it was imposed in the 1920s for basically racist reasons, or because too many of the people coming in had the ‘wrong’ (i.e. non-WASP) religion.

I think upon some reflection, and fully accepting menno’s arguments based on national sovereignty, we may find that the biggest impetus to keep foreign goods, people out is motivated as much or more by a politically leftist ideology, a Malthusian, anti-growth, anti-business, anti-life ideology.

menno, what think ye ?”

I think you have some very valid points.

But may I add one more little factoid? Speaking of anti-life, what about the lives of babies? Such cultural decisions made by certain powerful groups are even happening currently.

How many of you understand the concept that ABORTION was pushed into legality primarily by eugenicists and racists, specifically the founder of Planned Parenthood? How many of you are aware that RIGHT NOW Planned Parenthood has been caught encouraging more black women posing as potential “customers” than white?

There are a lot of ways that humanity is evil to one another.

Well, folks, I have had a really tough day. My wife and family, our friends and our congregation just buried our pastor who died while on vacation.

So I’m going to sign off, friends, and see you all tomorrow.

Just over 40% of prisoners in Los Angeles county jails are illegal aliens. The drop out rate in Los Angeles for high school students nears 50%, while teachers are struggling with students who don’t have a grasp of English. In high school. In response, the LAUSD is trying to dumb down a high school diploma through an easier to pass “final exam”.

These have extreme social ramifications downstream and we’re starting to see some of the impact now.

The Dems love illegal aliens because they think they are poor and will vote for more social programs. The Reps love illegal aliens because it’s good for cheap labor. Both parties have been derelict in their obligation to represent their constituents… US!

We are seeing illegal migration surpress wages, stressing city services and erode the tax base as they’re being paid under the table. Many of the trades in LA used to be known as black trades because those were the guys that were roofers, dry wallers, gardeners, etc. They’ve been undercut by illegals that will do similar work for 1/2 the price because they’re living 20 to a house.

We are importing the poorest of the poor, and we’re asking the middle class to whip out their AMEX and Visas (no pun) to pay for all of this through higher taxes and higher fees.

This is not about xenophobia. This is about understanding what happens when millions of people come to the US illegally (crossing a border or overstaying their visas) and become free riders. There is no free lunch.

I’m not saying they don’t work their asses off. If I lived in Mexico, I’d likely be one of those guys living in a house with 20 people and working in the US. I don’t blame them. I blame our government. And frankly, I blame us, the electorate, for being uneducated about these issues.

OMG, lost among this sea of nonsense is someone with a grasp of economic reality, even dare I say it an understanding of the relationship between the value of what a person produces and what they are in turn paid.

I salute you sir, but I’m afraid your efforts are wasted here. Better to just kick back and grunt “They’re takin ur jobs!” and blather something about the gold standard.

Most Mexican plants already have big turnover, absenteeism and quality issues, lowering the bar on wages will only make them worse.

Now that they don’t have the UAW at their doorstep in the US you can expect Toyota & Honda to get “competitive” with their wages as well.

When the UAW failed to organize Honda in Ohio it started the process of undermining their monopoly on labor.

Understood that the North wanted tariffs high and the South wanted them low.

Tariffs have disproportionate impacts on different populations, for ill or good (a fleeting, ultimately ruinous ‘good’ in my view, like drinking seawater).

My point was only that the U.S. relied on tariffs instead of income taxes.

As for NAFTA, usually nations like to believe that if they lower trade barriers the other fellow will also.

Economically speaking, this may well be the same as saying, I won’t stop hitting myself in the head with a hammer until you do.

People a lot smarter than moi attribute England’s historic rise to practicing unilateral free trade.

Katie is for a stimulus plan, not for England but for Toyota and now Tata.

No, it’s a stimulus for the UK. Let’s use the example of buying a car, since it seems the most relevant.

Now the most profitable car company runs at about 10% per car. Now if I bought a Toyota Auris to the spec I want, then I’d be looking at paying £16K (roughly). Now, £1600 of that price would be profit for Toyota, which goes back to Japan (I don’t have any problem with that, I like Japan). The remaining £14400 has to go to:

Buying the parts for the car. This will be sourced from local suppliers to keep cost down.

Paying the people to bolt the car together. This secures jobs in the UK

Paying for overheads to keep the plant running.

The majority of the money stays in the UK. Which means, securing jobs for the country. That is what is most important.

I wouldn’t mind seeing my 10% profit go to Germany if I bought a Mini. Because Mini supports a HELL of a lot of jobs in the UK (The Cowley plant and Swindon Pressings)

Then, if a company decides to move production abroad, then I wouldn’t buy that car. Simple, really.

Yes, it does restrict my choice of cars, but luckily the Toyota Auris and Jaguar X-Type are 2 cars which I happen to love!

Incidentally Imperial Germany was not much different to Britain (except for the bigger empire) in terms of various freedoms.

incidentally Illegal immigration has almost dried up as the Mexican Federal Reserve who track remittances coming from the USA has seen those reduce dramatically over the last year. An one of the effects of toughing up the border was to see whole families come across rather than previously the adult males come north looking for some extra money doing seasonal work then returning home.

The US had very steep import tariffs because this was the stated policy of the Republican Party to keep the Big Business in Big Bucks (incidentally one of the causes of the War of Southern Secession 1860-65.

Nafta is not a deregulation agreement, who needs rules to trade.

Mostly because after Mexicans, the biggest illegals in the country are Canadians and Irish.

Yet you never hear Tancredo or Buchanan freaking out about them.

Never ever, ever, do you?

So we could pay for our government by restoring this condition.

But pick only one, please: restricting imports while still taxing income resulted in the Great Depression.

With all respect to menno, however, not sure that immigration law is that big a deal.

Certainly it stinks when someone’s allowed to sneak in ahead of someone who’s been waiting for years, decades !

But why were they having to wait ?

Because there are only so many slots open each year for legal immigrants, because there is an annual quota.

Why is there a quota ?

I think history shows it was imposed in the 1920s for basically racist reasons, or because too many of the people coming in had the ‘wrong’ (i.e. non-WASP) religion.

I think upon some reflection, and fully accepting menno’s arguments based on national sovereignty, we may find that the biggest impetus to keep foreign goods, people out is motivated as much or more by a politically leftist ideology, a Malthusian, anti-growth, anti-business, anti-life ideology.

menno, what think ye ?

Unfortunately the UN has been on the receiving end of criticism from the US for longer than 8 years. Remember Jesse Helms being able to withhold US dues in Clinton’s time?

toxicroach:

Yes productivity in Mexico might well be lower than in the US, but why? Are the Mexicans too stupid or lazy? I doubt it, and we know that companies invest less in labor-saving technology as long as they are able to keep the wages down, or even lower them. Henry Ford did raise wages, but from what I’ve read it was to get people to show up every day rather than from a burst of altruism. Remember he effectively turned control over to Harry Bennett and agreed to sign the deal with union only when his wife threatened to leave him otherwise.

Lots, if not most, people are greedy; owners, execs and workers, and never have enough. Is it just coincidence that Honda and Toyota are interested in cutting wages of their people just as the UAW does its givebacks? Are the American Axle US workers now at $14 or so an hour 3-7 times as productive as workers in Mexico? What happens to AA profits if the technology in the US plant is shipped to Mexico? Goodbye US plants, and it’ll happen.

geeber:

I didn’t intend to say that the moneyed interests were Hitler’s only supporters, merely that they were very willing to throw in with him even given his obvious character flaws and intentions. Of course they had lots of company.

You might, but I have no doubt that the oft cited ‘competitive pressures’ will be used as an excuse to squeeze workers all over the world as we continue the race to the bottom. Cutting Mexican wages by half to $2.25 an hour is proof IMO.

Facism has been a term with various definitions. From my reading of Benito’s work, he used a combining of corporate and government (meaning his) power to the exclusion of citizen rights and interests.

It’s amusing to see how the left loves to label insistence on legal immigration as “xenophobic” even though there is no logical connection (but we are talking about the left, aren’t we?), but pseudo-fascism is a new one. Just the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever but sounds so good must automatically lift it to the top of the ranking.

Good points all around. However, a free market is directly at odds with “secure borders.”

Again, in the case of Mexico, $2.25 an hour to hammer Fords together, or more than that picking produce. Or hauling garbage. Or whatever.

And remember, it’s not the illegals that are hiring illegals. It’s the legals that are (illegally) hiring illegals.

For what it’s worth, my father came here legally (from Canada). My sister married someone who came here illegally when he was a child. However, his family worked their Guatemalan asses off. His brother is now LAPD, his sister is a nurse at UCLA medical center and my brother-in-law graduated from USC (expensive private school) before becoming a Hollywood semi-big shot. Is America worse off for having them come here illegally?

I’m Constitutionalist (and was Libertarian until they went off the rails and declared there should be legalized drugs of all manner), and I’m married to a LEGAL immigrant who took US citizenship.

When she married me and moved here, we did the paperwork and followed the LAW. When we moved to the UK, we did the paperwork and followed the LAW. When we chose to move back to the states, we did so and followed the LAW.

You cannot have a nation without secure borders; it is an oxymoron. Having borders means you ARE a nation. I don’t hate on anybody – I (and literally millions of others) just think “by God, if I have to follow the rules, why shouldn’t THEY? Why are THEY special?!”

Besides, let me tell you which nation in the Americas is MOST stringient about deporting illegal aliens. It’s Mexico. So, I’m calling hypocracy on the Mexican government for their continuous calls to the US government to leave the status quo re: illegals crossing the border north. I’m calling on Mexico to stop being so corrupt, and putting their valuable resources to work for the benefit of their poor, instead of foisting their problems on their neighbors. Good fences make good neighbors.

ttacgreg has a good handle on the situation.

Here’s my short take. UNLESS “we the people” can stand up, get away from the mass media force-feeding us our “opinions” which simply make us sheeple, and can agree on SOMETHING worthwhile to use as our common touch-stone (eschewing the “left wing ideology” and “right wing ideology” which only blinds us to what we need to do to take our country back from the elite who now run it), we’re finished. As ttacgreg infers, we’re already very, very damn close to enslavement now. Interestingly enough, we haven’t gradually lost our rights under only one major party or the other; a pox on both of their houses – they are both responsible for it!

Canada is even more precariously placed than the US, but we’re right behind them.

My contention is that if we cannot stand behind the Constitution of the United States, and support a party whose existance and party-line is based upon the commonsense, as-written and understood by the authors interpretation of same (instead of reading into it what is desired for a particular outcome, which is simply anarchy) – then we deserve exactly what we get. Which, in plain English, will be a collapsed civilization. I can’t put it any plainer than that.

Katie said it well – look at the results that the UK has seen. Our results from NAFTA are following along Britain’s results.

To keep it simple, look at the British auto industry. It is now down to cottage industry size, with no mass production car built in the UK by UK owned interests.

That’s obviously the road we’re on in America, too, and it is more important than just cars.

It’s our lives, our livelihood, our freedoms and our nation I’m talking about. We’re literally just about out of chances to put a new captain and crew into place and turn the ship away from the rocks. Now’s the time to act.

Justice Bader Ginsburg, for example, was the chief litigator of the ACLU’s women’s rights project, so it’s not a stretch to guess that, given her views on other subjects and work with the ACLU, that she holds its views on this particular subject.

And the ACLU is important, because it is a nationwide organization that contributes heavily to the debate on constitutional issues and influences LOTS of people.

And he’s hardly the only one who picks and choses which amendments he supports. Ask the ACLU, for example, about its interpretation of the Second Amendment…

He is all for corporate liberty. He just can’t stand that pesky 4th Amendment.