Comments on: 60 Minutes “Race for the Electric Vehicle:” Lutz vs. Musk

By: TomAnderson

TomAnderson — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:36:28 +0000

Anyone care to wager whether or not Stahl will correct herself next week for saying that Musk “started” Tesla Motors 5 years ago?

What did you expect from the same “news organization” that knowingly and actively tried to run Audi out of the U.S. market in the 1980s?

CBS is the poster child for drive-by journalism, and I’m not just saying that because of my conservative upbringing.

By: joeaverage

joeaverage — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:23:16 +0000

I really hope Tesla, Phoenix Motor Cars, Fisker, MilesEV, etc all change the automotive landscape in this country.

I don’t mind the large vehicles that the big Detroit 2.8 makes but they are stuck in a rut and they’ll get what they deserve with the choices they made.

Maybe folks will break away from the heard and dare to drive something different.

By: 60 Minutes: Race For The Electric Car - Tesla Motors Club Forum

60 Minutes: Race For The Electric Car - Tesla Motors Club Forum — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:27:02 +0000

[...] Tesla Death Watch take on the show: 60 Minutes “Race for the Electric Vehicle:” Lutz vs. Musk | The Truth About Cars [...]

By: Bytor

Bytor — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:20:23 +0000

“And its not using A123s either. ”

Has it been decided that Continental is out?. Isn’t Continental using A123 cells in their pack as previously reported:

“Continental will be using lithium ion cells provided by A123 Systems while Compact Power is using LG Chem cells. “

By: savuporo

savuporo — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:56:40 +0000

GM is not using Thundersky batteries
And its not using A123s either. I was simply pointing out that there is nothing that fundamentally makes LFP batteries expensive, they have way more room for price optimization there because LFPs do not contain expensive elements like cobalt in Tesla laptop batteries.
From what i gather lithium manganese spinel batteries adopted by Nissan and IIRC Mitsubishi for their EVs can get quite cheap too.

By: lewissalem

lewissalem — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:30:27 +0000

Several good points at the end of the video. You don’t see a bunch of auto executives going out and saying, “Lets build an operating system!” Experience counts for something.

Buildin’ cars is hard ™!

By: Voice of Sweden

Voice of Sweden — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:30:25 +0000

Honestly, I was positivly impressed by Lutz. Perhaps they stay quiet about their progress?

That Tesla “factory” just look like any ordinary car repair-shop. VERY UNIMPRESSIVE!

By: akitadog

akitadog — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:29:52 +0000

Anyone care to wager whether or not Stahl will correct herself next week for saying that Musk “started” Tesla Motors 5 years ago?

By: Strippo

Strippo — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:18:20 +0000

Despite what he represents I’ve got to tell you: I like him better than slick Elon Musk.

Wouldn’t Musk make a great Bond villain, though?

By: Bytor

Bytor — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:14:21 +0000

GM is not using Thundersky batteries and A123s are not rebranded Thundersky batteries. Thunderskys seem to be Chinese knockoffs. Regardless they are not in the running. Though interesting none the less. I wouldn’t mind an Ebike with these instead of A123s. I don’t think they are claiming anywhere near the cycle life of A123s…

A123s run about $1500/KWh at retail. Certainly cheaper in bulk, but then you need to factor cooling/balancing systems in pack cost…

If it is a 16KWh A123 pack (I am not familiar with the competing pack), being close to half the price of the car is not far off the mark.

Where do you think the extra price of this car comes from if not the batteries. Don’t say R&D cost, that is never factored in when they talk about unit profitability. Production cost are what counts. Why should a Volt cost $20K more to produce than a Prius/Insight if not for the battery.

By: Dutchchris

Dutchchris — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:13:10 +0000

It’s fascinating how an overpaid Detroit car lord like Bob Lutz despite his position doesn’t seem to take himself too seriously in an interview like this and is ready to admit mistakes.

Despite what he represents I’ve got to tell you: I like him better than slick Elon Musk.

By: savuporo

savuporo — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:55:56 +0000

google around for ThunderSky LFPs, sizes above 100AH cells can work out to less than $500/kWh, depending on who you buy from.

By: Bytor

Bytor — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:50:44 +0000

“LiFEPo4 cells can be had on retail market for less than $500/kWh.”

Link please?

By: savuporo

savuporo — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:43:45 +0000

I still estimate the battery cost at near half the price of the Volt.
LiFEPo4 cells can be had on retail market for less than $500/kWh. Volt will get 16kWH. Considering that GM will be buying bulk at smaller prices, your math just does not work.

By: Strippo

Strippo — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:34:28 +0000

Bob Lutz stakes his reputation on the Volt.

That matches up well with my stake in Lehman Brothers. Game on.

By: Bytor

Bytor — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:24:21 +0000

It didn’t seem that unbalanced to me. It just mentioned the impression that exists, that Detroit was slow, also mentioned that Tesla had already doubled the money spent, and are hiring lots of detroit people and their only car is $109 000 and that their sedan will be $60 000.

What GM needs to do is offer a battery minimized version with say 10% to 25% the battery capacity (and cost). This will allow greater volumes to amortize the technology over.

I still estimate the battery cost at near half the price of the Volt. Drop plug in capability and the battery to 10% they might squeak $20K and open another market. Not everyone has a place to plug in a PHEV. I rent and I don’t have a plug. So no PHEV for me.

By: Usta Bee

Usta Bee — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:22:27 +0000

When Lutz first started talking in the video the first thing I thought of was “Sling Blade” !. Ummm…gonna get me some biscuits…ummm…gonna build me an electric car.

The Volt is the ulimate Lutz vehicle, another “halo” niche car meant to build GM’s image and to sell in small numbers. Meanwhile they STILL don’t have anything lined up to compete with the likes of the Civic or Corolla in terms of quality or reliability. While they’re busy wasting R&D dollars for a hail mary car to show their technical prowess all their customers are leaving for the imports in droves.

By: Point Given

Point Given — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:28:16 +0000

She also said that Volt would use the gas engine to recharge itself. Which either it will or it won’t. Maxy Robert said that it would work in conjunction with the software to charge it up only enough to get where you are going.

BTWm Bob looked and talked like every bit the fool that the site makes him out to be. Maybe it’s the effect of this site but I had a difficult time taking him seriously.

By: Sajeev Mehta

Sajeev Mehta — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:48:50 +0000

Why nail GM and give Tesla a free pass on their half-truths? (to put it mildly) Either 60 minutes is more interested in an entertaining story, or they are terrible fact-checkers/truth seekers.