Let’s face it: Subaru isn’t known for building physically attractive automobiles. Their products are the automotive equivalent of the “butter face” girl: everything is great “but her” face. Fortunately, the new Legacy GT (LGT) avoids the brand’s heavy-handed airplane-inspired refreshes, or the new Tribeca’s po-faced Pacifica pandering. The Legacy GT’s not-so-B9 makeover puts the model in prime position for the legions of more mature automotive enthusiasts desperately seeking Subie.
With redesigned headlights and taillights and a larger, chrome-ified grille opening, the LGT looks like an edgier, more aggressive Camry (before Toyota beat it with an ugly stick). The LGT’s hood scoop is a restrained version of the STi’s gi-nomous nasal passage. The equally undemonstrative aerodynamic addendum doesn’t invite Civic-driving young’uns to a stoplight race.
More signs you’re in a Subie designed for grownups: the LGT’s portals close with a Germanic whumph. Subaru’s also replaced the nasty ass plastic blighting their rally replicars and off-roaders with soft touch polymers, though the quality has dropped slightly since the ‘05 update. The LGT’s eminently grippable, leather-wrapped steering wheel and moderately bolstered leather seats are a cut above the WRX’. In short, while the LGT’s cabin won’t keep Audi’s haptic hit squad up at night, Volvo knows who’s eating their lunch.
To help justify sticker escalation, Subie’s added a standard telescoping wheel, front/rear climate control and [optional] memory seats and navigation. More basically, the LGT’s astonishingly large front cupholders can accommodate your Big Gulp, sunglasses, cell phone and iPod with room to spare. The door’s equally outsized grab handles add a wikkid— and useful— touch.
The LGT’s 2.5-liter four-cylinder engine is a detuned (smaller turbo) version of the STi’s bonkers powerplant. Subaru attempted to remediate the sluggish nature of their five-speed automatic by providing the “Subaru Intelligent Drive” system, or rather, the “Slow, Interfering Drive” system. The frugal-friendly “Intelligent” setting generates a flatter torque curve. “Sport” and “Sharp” dial it up a notch, providing access to all 243 horses and more acceptable go-pedal response.
If you really want to see ‘er fly, stick to the manual. Even on Sport Sharp, the automatic is over a second slower to sixty from rest. Even shiny new paddle-shifters and rev-matched downshifting can’t fix the harsh reality of a sluggish slushbox. Subaru needs to take a cue from VW, call up Borg Warner and bless the LGT with a DSG paddle shift gearbox or similar.
Symmetrical all-wheel drive provides all-areas access to the four-door’s thrust, helping it to rapidly outpace similarly-powered FWD cars (I’m looking at you Mazdaspeed3). The LGT’s accelerative head rush and throaty exhaust growl are addictive enough to render turbo lag forgivable, if not forgettable.
Fast? During a trip through the mountains, only another LGT (with local knowledge) could show us a clean set of tailpipes. Fun? See: previous sentence. If the previous LGT stuck to the road like a sucker fish to a stone, the new model adds a dab of super glue. For ’08, Subaru fitted A-pillar braces and stiffer bushings. The more rigid body and tighter suspension endow the LGT with almost STi-quality handling– though the LGT’s long body occasionally gives corner carvers the unsettling feeling that the rear end is about to beat them to the finish line.
While there’s enough body roll at speed to encourage queasy passengers to check the rear seat pockets for a barf bag, daily driving is a doddle, with excellent composure over moderate lumps and bumps. The LGT’s steering is light and responsive, providing excellent road feel. The previously mushy brake pedal provides ample stopping power, but you won’t want to.
Speaking of Volvo, safety is now one of Subaru’s main selling points. While you can’t fault the LGT’s official crash test ratings (five stars all round), electronic alphabet soup (ABS, EBD, VDC, TCS, TPMS, plus LSD in the spec.B), passenger safety cell or full complement of airbags (side curtains for all), there’s a big old chink in the LGT’s armor: tires.
The LGT’s all-season Potenza RE92’s give pistonheads all the dry pavement death grip they’ll ever need. On snow pack or ice, it’s an entirely different story– without a guaranteed happy ending. This website has said it many times: even the world’s best four-wheel drive system– and Subie’s certainly qualifies for that honor– is no substitute for proper winter footwear. Full stop. Or not, as the case may be.
When the fourth-generation LGT was released, it was America’s best-value sub-$50k sporting sedan– especially when you considered its all-wheel drive. The LGT’s punch also made it a suitable STi alternative for penny pinching hoons. With laudable entries like the Mazdaspeed6 undercutting the LGT’s steadily-increasing price ($33k as tested), buyers may wonder if the LGT is worth the price of admission. It is. From the driver’s seat at least, the LGT is a genuine stunner.
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Note the article photos appear to be of ‘07 models. Here are a few pics of the ‘08. I forgive TTAC for using older photos, as the refresh is admittedly quite subtle.
My bad.
Something's come up. I'll make the switch ASAP.
Thanks for your patience.
Excellent review, hit all of the important points and didn’t get hung up on the composition of the plastics used to fabricate the dashboard.
Would love to read your review of a BMW, Porsche, Corvette, Lincoln, Cadillac and Mercedes.
At that price point it is knocking on the door of the discountable G35X, also with AWD but with a standard RWD bias.
Although the X is available only with auto transmission, somehow the LGT does not have the panache in the minds of the customer.
More- at that price point the LGT is knocking on the door of the STI.
Bottom line, can it sustain a 33k price, or will it be heavily discounted?
The engines in earlier LGTs with the automatic lulled and surged south of 3,000 rpm. (Well, maybe the engine did the same with the manual, but with the manual the engine spent very little time south of 3,000 rpm.)
Have they fixed this issue for 2008? Or is part-throttle acceleration at low rpm still lumpy?
Aside from that issue, I’ve always been a big fan of the LGT, especially the no longer with us stick-shift wagon. (The stick left after 2005, the wagon is gone altogether for 2008.)
I’ve been seeing low repair rates for these in my site’s reliability research. For pricing, fuel economy, and reliability info on this car:
http://www.truedelta.com/models/Legacy.php
Reviews of the Aerio and Enclave have prompted concern over the long term viability of the Suzuki and Buick as surviving brands, and I think the same can be said of Subaru.
They have many models, and few sales, meaning that their platforms fail to earn the economies of scale that players like Toyota, GM and Honda do. This economic hardship is not sustainable.
GM dumped Subaru because they refused to give up on their beloved boxer engine, meaning Subaru couldn’t share platforms with the rest of the company.
I know there are a lot of Subaru fans who love the boxer, but if Subaru wants to survive, it needs to figure out that Legacy means AWD Camry and WRX means AWD turbo Corolla. Sorry.
# SherbornSean:
“I know there are a lot of Subaru fans who love the boxer, but if Subaru wants to survive, it needs to figure out that Legacy means AWD Camry and WRX means AWD turbo Corolla. Sorry.”
I’m gonna pretend you didn’t say that.
I love my ‘05 manual, it was the perfect option for me as I got it just before I got married, as the wife would not have appreciated an STi. The LGT gives me nearly all the performance that I can reasonably use in a much more attractive package. Now I just have to shake the urge to mod it…
“GM dumped Subaru because they refused to give up on their beloved boxer engine, meaning Subaru couldn’t share platforms with the rest of the company.”
This is exactly why Subaru is a great company. I hope consumers don’t force them to dumb down.
I feel like one of the lucky ones. My wife and I have a 2005 Legacy GT Ltd, black with beige interior, manual (five speed) WAGON! In ‘06 I know Subie canned the color/interior color combo and I believe that’s the year the five speed went the way of the dodo bird.
Early on we had plenty of “build quality” issues and a few engineering issues. Most of those seemed to have been taken care of. Unfortunately some of them you put up with because regardless of warranty you get tired of taking the car in. My biggest complaint is the durability of some of the materials – exterior sheetmetal, paint, interior pieces and parts (but my wife is brutal on some stuff with her nails).
Outside of that the car is an absolute blast to drive and looks great. There is nothing quite like taking the onramp at crazy speeds and feeling the awd pull you through and stick like no rear-wheel or front-wheel drive car could EVER do.
Yes, a bit pricey in my opinion but worth the individuality and performance.
I’ve owned a few Subarus since 1981, the last being a 1999 Outback wagon bought used with 84k on it. Here’s a summary of my problems with the ‘99, in just 30k miles:
Unknown, bad chassis vibration at 3000RPM.
A/C compressor fried, contaminating the whole system.
Transmission leaks, corrosion of filter/body, and in the end, poor shifting.
Rear wiper froze up.
Weird, snap oversteer at a certain steering input, like you crossed a fulcrum.
Aluminum wheels that leaked air.
Mileage drops 20% in cold weather.
Poor cold driveability.
Speedometer works intermittently.
Dash lights burned out.
Power window switches failed.
Seat bolster’s foam crumbled.
AWD system is simply FWD till the fronts spin enough, offering no directional stability in snow.
Rear liftgate handle corrodes and become inoperative.
Subaru, like VWs I’ve owned, seems to have hit-or-miss reliability. If the overall fleet-score is better then average, then that means there’s a lot of lemons being suffered out there. Too much risk for me; I’m done with Subaru. While the car was fun to drive, and had great steering feel, I’ll never suffer this Subaru-crap ever again. I’ve had it with them.
SherbornSean
GM dumped their meager, 9% share in Subaru’s stock because they needed the cash. No other reason, and they hardly had a controlling interest. Subaru doesn’t need to make their vehicles generic to survive, but they really do need to get a hybrid on the market if they want to keep their crunchy-granola-tree-hugging image. They’re a relatively small automaker and don’t need Camry-like numbers to survive.
Many models? Hardly. They have the Legacy platform, which supplies the Legacy, Outback, and Tribeca, and the Impreza platform, which underpins the Impreza and all its variants and the Forester. They got rid of the Baja. Engines are largely shared between cars, and most of the differences between models amount to performance tweaking and cosmetic differences. There are only a handful of variations, and few custom options. They’re actually pretty lean compared to any domestic automaker.
Sorry, NickNick,
I don’t mean to offend Subaru loyalists; it’s an issue of business model, not a criticism of Subaru’s competency. If you compare the Legacy to the Accord, Honda sales are 3-4x the Subaru, both in the US and globally. Long term, how can Subaru stay competitive with a company that can spread its engineering costs over so much more volume?
If Honda drops a turbodiesel and SH-AWD in the TSX/Accord, I think it’s game over for the Legacy. If they do the same in the CR-V, that takes out the Forrester, ditto the Civic/Impreza.
What’s left, the Tribeca?
Baha?
Brat?
Justy?
I drove a ‘06 LGT before I purchased my Speed6 and they are both very quality vehicles. Mazda clearly took aim at Subaru for this vehicle segment and were more or less successful. However they were focusing more on developing new technology rather than record sales. These cars share plenty of similarities, but here are some of the differences I found between the two:
Speed6:
-Tighter suspension and slightly better handling, stock
-6 speed (no auto offering), but the LGT trans is a little more solid
-Few more neato options, such as keyless entry and ignition and two-tone leather
LGT:
-Rear bias AWD, compared to the front bias AWD on the Mazda
-Much larger aftermarket support for drivetrain and suspension
-Available in wagon in US
Performance-wise, they are about the same. The LGT has a few less ponies but also weighs a few pounds less. Each has structural reinforcements over the base model. The LGT is worth its price tag as Megan mentioned, however Mazda really made it an easy decision.
to ‘Detroit’ you said you bought the car with 84 THOUSAND MILES!! and you are blaming subaru for most of the problems?!?! I’m sorry but I can’t follow your logic on this one.
The door glass doesn’t rattle when you shut the door? Sounds like Subies are finally worth the price of entry, if you live somewhere where AWD isn’t a big deal.
While it’ll never be a threat to the Camcord, this is one nice family sedan.
Megan, we can go back and forth over the reason(s) GM dumped Subaru. At the end of the day, the investment turned out to be non-strategic because there were few synergies, given the unwillingness to share platforms. Certainly the cash –although small next to what GM would get from selling other assets — didn’t hurt.
As far as Subaru not needing economies of scale, do me a favor, name a successful, profitable mainstream carmaker with as few sales as Subaru.
Or, as few sales per platform as Subaru.
All I’m saying is that I don’t think Subaru’s business model will lead to long term success. Product updates become less frequent, marketing efforts less well funded, and investments in new technology (like hybrids as you correctly point out) impossible.
It’s rare that a company dies a slow death from poor strategy rather than poor execution, but it does happen.
Michael Karesh
I think there is an ECU re-flash that fixes the issue in the 05 models, but reports on it being successful are sketchy. There is no real fix, save being easy on the throttle (it seems to be related to the turbo spooling up), which is no fun. It doesn’t really bother me much and I have the 05 manual… it’s rough if you accelerate really hard, but otherwise it’s not bad. Small price to pay for such a fun car.
Sajeev
No glass rattle at all. Just a nice, solid whumpf. Very satisfactory, really.
Detroit:
Firstly ou are inccorect about the Outback being FWD until there is slippage. Subabru, w/ its longitudinally mounted engines, uses a Torsen system which is always working and constantly splits power between all four wheels. This is unlike a Haldex system found on cars like Volovs, the Audi TT, Mazdaspeed 6, Ford Fusion, etc that are based on cars FWD/transverse mounted engines.
As for all the problems, as a previous poster ponted out, you bought a car w/ 84K and ran it up to 114K. Who knows what that car sufffered though in the miles before you had it. Alsol, most cars lose significant gas mileage durring cold weather. And what does “poor cold drivablitiy” mean?
Long term, how can Subaru stay competitive with a company that can spread its engineering costs over so much more volume?
Spreading engineering costs over many models hasn’t worked out so well for the (former) big 3. Volume manufacturing is not a viable strategy; it is not a strategy at all. Every first-year MBA learns that. I have no idea why the forget it by the time they have risen through the ranks of our domestic automakers…
Anyway, Sean, you are assuming that all new technology must be developed in-house, and therefore the big guys will eventually dominate all the small ones. That’s simply not true. Auto companies and niche technology companies license their technology to others all the time (Tiptronic, anyone?). Sure, Toyota has a very nice hybrid drivetrain. But there are small companies that design and license hybrid drivetrains for specialized applications like buses and heavy duty trucks. They were not developed by the big manufacturers because size has its downside as well – certain market segments are too small to pay full attention to. If a hybrid technology becomes (effectively) mandatory, there will be someone out there willing to license it if Subaru can’t develop it on their own.
Anyway, my point is that there is no reason a company like Subaru must fail with 100% certainty. Smaller companies regularly survive in the face of crushing competition by choosing their battles carefully (Apple?). That’s not saying Subaru will survive (who knows) but I firmly believe they can.
Detroit wrote:
Unknown, bad chassis vibration at 3000RPM.
A/C compressor fried, contaminating the whole system.
Transmission leaks, corrosion of filter/body, and in the end, poor shifting.
Rear wiper froze up.
Weird, snap oversteer at a certain steering input, like you crossed a fulcrum.
Aluminum wheels that leaked air.
Mileage drops 20% in cold weather.
Poor cold driveability.
Speedometer works intermittently.
Dash lights burned out.
Power window switches failed.
Seat bolster’s foam crumbled.
AWD system is simply FWD till the fronts spin enough, offering no directional stability in snow.
Rear liftgate handle corrodes and become inoperative.
I own a ‘99 Forester and have noticed similar things:
- right rear bearing has gone 4 times
- transmission doesn’t shift well
- engine knocks like a diesel (Subaru says that’s normal)
- no where near EPA fuel economy (24mpg tops)
- Speedometer works in warm dry weather only
- 2 02 sensors and one knock sensor
- Aluminum wheels leak air
- Clock failed. I fixed it and it failed again, only to work once the weather warmed up.
- takes over an hour to replace the spark plugs vs 5 minutes for my Acura.
having noted all that, my wife loves the car, and it brings a smile to my face as well. That is the definition of quality is it not? I have a set of snow tires that are seemingly unstoppable (I’ve tried), and the car gives a feeling of being rock solid.
I also own an Acura EL, and the difference for me is that the Acura is very reliable but not durable, while the Subie is Durable and only moderately reliable.
SearbornSean
Subaru is not a mainstream brand… it has always been a niche brand, with lower sales. The Subaru division is still turning a profit (vs. losing money hand over fist like some automakers), though 2006 was not as good for Fuji Heavy as 2005. Again, they need a hybrid. Being acquired by Toyota (still rumored to be happening) might help with the cash intake, but right now they’re doing just fine. The Impreza/WRX update should boost sales nicely.
The Legacy GT is a good car; a really good car except it doesn’t know what it wants to be. It’s too expensive to be a AWD Camry and doesn’t have the chops to go against the new G35 or 3 series. Not that anyone thinks of Subaru as luxury so then why are they hitting luxury prices in a mainstay sedan? The STI can be forgiven its price tag due to its phenomenal performance and while even the spec B legacy is nice and has lots of bells and whistles people are not going to pony up 35k for a Subaru sedan. Acura, Audi, Lexus, Benz, Infiniti? Yes. Subaru? No. And seriously is it so hard to hire a good designer and not make ugly cars?
Cavendal – My father in-law works for Subaru of America and when I was considering buying a 2000 Legacy GT he warned me about the engine “knock”. I can’t say for certain this is your issue but he told it’s piston “slap” (the rod/wrist pin has a bit of play in it). He was insistant it wasn’t a reliability issue and was doing no harm but it was something I’d hear, especially with cold weather/cold motor. Typically he said it quiets down once warmed up. Not sure what your experience is.
FWIW he used to work for Mazda as well and he’s said repeatedly, after seeing GM warranty #’s at the dealers he worked with that had dual dealerships with both Mazda and Subaru, that if Mazda or Subaru had the warranty costs that GM had that they’d shut down their plants and bring in engineers and suppliers to figure out the problem before building another car.
What’s an Acura EL?
Im not sure what Subaru has to do to get me to warm up to their brand. I just cant see myself buying a Subaru. The new Legacy looks like a great car but not everyone needs (or wants to pay for) AWD. I know its good for Subaru to differentiate themselves with the all AWD strategy but in the southern states I just dont see them selling in any quantities at all. I would be curious to see Subaru’s sales figures by state. Im betting they get all their $$ from a few snowy states.
Toyota is looking at buying heavily into Fuji so I think Subaru is safe and will be around for a while. They are working on a diesel boxer and I’m sure we’ll see some hybrid applications come from the partnership with Toyota. With the redesign of the Impreza I’m not sure it’s going to boost sales much. I hope to be proven wrong but the 08 sedan and hatch seem even less attractive than the outgoing model.
Remind me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Legacy basically the same car since 1989? I haven’t seen a new platform since, and the greenhouse looks practically the same. With some minor updates now and then, it should be more or less the same. Though the quality seems to be improved. Am I right or wrong? So how come nobody is pointing out that the design is roughly twenty years old by now?
Detroit,
After a drunk driver totalled my beloved ‘92 Civic EX sedan (5 speed, VTEC, ABS discs all around), I bought a ‘99 Outback with only 50K miles. I noticed that the speedometer worked intermittently (as a result, so did the odometer), went to the dealer and they charged me $400 for a new speed sensor. That was $400 down the drain. I went to another dealer and they new exactly what to do because this was a common problem on ’99’s–faulty speedometer. In addition, the power window switches worked intermittently, dash lights were burned out, the shifter and clutch felt extremely heavy most of the time, the roof rack was coming undone screw by screw (unable to re-screw back in), and the wheel bearings howled and moaned from time to time.
When you’ve owned Hondas, these problems are significantly magnified. I think Subaru has done much better with the quality of their vehicles recently, but I’m going to be apprehensive before ever getting another one.
Megan,
How does the shifter and clutch feel on the LGT compared to competitors (6, Accord, TSX, 3-Series, A3/A4, etc.)? Usually in comparison tests and reviews, the Subies get called out for their shifters being too balky, clunky, heavy, etc.
The Legacy GT is a great drive but is let down by flat seats and the quality of the manual shift. The European/Asian version of this car get great sports seats while the American market gets super wide flat seats designed for the 300lb+ crowd. The manual gearshift also does not do justice to the rest of the car – it has an imprecise action and in combination with the clutch make a clean launch and urban driving a chore.
Having said that, however, it really is an impressive drivers car that is two minor fixes away from greatness.
I had a 2005 outback XT which I gladly trade-ed in last February. Although the engine had some good power I quickly tired of interior buzzes. The rear view mirror buzzed over many road surfaces. The dashboard rattled and I had to stick a rubber stopper between the windshield and dash to quell it. Also the long throw shifter was very vague and I grinded 2nd more than
a couple times. Also the clutch was so heavy that driving in traffic was a chore.
And, the mileage was pretty awful, just a little over 20mpg in mixed driving. Although the storage space was quoted as 60cu
feet, the sloped shape of the rear reduced the usability of this space.
In short I was really disappointed with my subaru experience.
I think they do have a bit of an identity crisis. Growing up in New England they were known as frugal, reliable tools for
tough winters. Now they are not quite luxury and not quite frugal. Fortunately they are still small enough to satisfy a
niche market but I think it will be tough to grow.
Jason
The Legacy was completely redesigned for the 05 model year. Any gripes about prior years apply to those engines/models only, and are not relevant to the current model year. Subaru is still a top performer as far as long-term reliability and customer satisfaction go.
When the LGT came out in 05, there was a base model LGT and then the limited edition, which we got for about… $26k? I don’t recall exactly. Getting rid of the base model bumped the price upwards, and now it costs the same for an LTD as it did in 06 for the spec.B. The price creep is a killer… when it first came out, a lot of fun could be had for less than $25k.
Our ‘05 GT Ltd has the manual and I find it to be a bit notchy and bulky at the same time. Obviously the factory OEM shifter should be right to start with but Subaru actually makes a “short throw” shifter that I’ve heard is a bit better and there are also a few others that make these short throw shifters that get good reviews. Of course this is with the 5spd and maybe if they stuck the 6spd in there it wouldn’t be the issue it is. Oddly enough we replaced the orginal shifter knob with a Subaru/Momo aluminum knob and that took a great deal of vagueness out of it. As for the clutch, it was great when we drove it out the dealers door but at 40k miles I’m not a fan of it anymore – but my wife isn’t exactly easy on it and it’s “her’s” so I don’t drive it much. And I have a 2000 Passat V6 with a 5spd manual and I think it’s the best shifting car I could imagine…only to have some magazine tell me how bad it was and how the Subaru’s was great. Tells you how much I know.
My only complaint about the Subies is that damned 4 cylinder boxer. It’s just not a smooth sounding engine. I wish they would spend a bit more time on the much nicer 6 cylinder boxer engine, it’s the winner in my book.
I agree that Subaru needs to keep the boxer engines, it’s an eccentricity that gives the brand much of it’s character. Volvo wouldn’t be as funky if they didn’t have 5 cylinder turbos, Honda wouldn’t be Honda if they didn’t have tiny four pots.
In my estimation Subaru exists in an interesting niche. With both Volvo and Subaru treading up market, Subaru is still in the same place: a notch below Volvo with the twist of AWD. This isn’t a bad thing, people after permanent AWD, a touch of environmental concern and a bit of safety in the mix will be well served. I don’t think they need to beat the Camcord to survive. Still, being that middle-of-the-road near luxury specialty company would make me feel nervous…
I don’t think Subaru is going anywhere. In the great snowy north (New England, upstate NY, Michigan, Minnesota, most of Canada) people are fanatical about them for their reliability and their cold-winter prowess. And there are a lot of people living in those places. People in southern climates tend to think of Subaru as a wacky nitch performance brand, but for people in the north, an Impreza is a smart Corolla, a Legacy is a smart Camry, and the WRX or GT is just icing on the cake. My extended family all lives in the snowbelt in upstate NY and more than half of them have Foresters (some are on their second or third) and won’t buy another car until Subaru stops making them.
Megan’s right, Subaru is a smart automaker who has (1) figured out their brand niche and stuck to it and executed their products well within that niche and (2) has developed an almost fanatical following amongst gearheads and snowbelt residents and (3) has scaled their production and distribution operation properly for the scope of their business. They don’t need to sell in Camry-like numbers to be stable and profitable, just like Porsche doesn’t. Their have figured out their schtick and they do it well and that bodes well for their long-term future.
Subaru’s having a little trouble figuring out who they’re selling to in the US. There is no longer a Legacy wagon – if you want a wagon you have to buy an Outback. I’m another of the lucky souls who got a 2005 wagon with 5MT. This is exactly the car I had been longing for ever since I bought my ‘93 Legacy wagon: plenty of power but otherwise retaining all the virtues of the ‘93: much better handling than you would think, excellent visibility and tremendous stability even at 100+ mph.
The boxer engine has a neat characteristic: it keeps the car’s CG low. Sometimes it sounds like a piece of farm equipment. That is not such a bad trade-off for its advantages.
Adam777:
Depends on the model of Subaru, its engine output and transmission options.
Some of them, like the regular Impreza with the auto, are as Detroit says, and then some of them, like the Impreza STi, are as you say.
RE: the shifter, ours has the short throw, and I’d recommend getting that over the standard. The regular throw is too long. Getting the short throw gets rid of the vagueness and makes shifting much tighter. It’s a lot heavier than a Honda (I could literally flick my fingers to put the Integra into gear, not so with this), but not much more than other cars. It does take a bit of muscle though.
jbyrne
There is a TSB out for the dash rattle. It takes them about 3 hours to take the dash apart and fix it, but it’s worth it. Ours developed the rattle/squeak about a year in and the fix has made highway driving much nicer.
Adam777: “Firstly ou are inccorect about the Outback being FWD until there is slippage. Subabru, w/ its longitudinally mounted engines, uses a Torsen system which is always working and constantly splits power between all four wheels. This is unlike a Haldex system found on cars like Volovs, the Audi TT, Mazdaspeed 6, Ford Fusion, etc that are based on cars FWD/transverse mounted engines.”
Nope, Adam777 you are wrong. The Audi Quattro (on their higher end vehicles) uses the Torsen system (and Haldex on their lower end vehicles). Subaru has employed a number of different strategies. All MT Subarus use a 50/50 viscous center differential that can bias the power to the non-slipping axle on demand, but is normally 50/50. Early automatics used a 90/10 setting which, through the different clutches, could go to 50/50 if needed, but couldn’t go more than 50% to the rear wheels. (In fact, it 1st gear, the computer would set the bias to 50/50 for better acceleration and then drop it to 90/10 for better economy). Now you see that Subarus are advertised with “symmetric all wheel drive” and that just means that both the autos and MT Subarus have a 50/50 viscous differential that can bias the torque accordingly.
I have a 1999 LGT and it’s a blast to drive. Granted I get nowhere near the power in the new LGTs, but I really don’t need more than the 160HP or so that I do have. There’s this great mountain that I take my LGT up, it starts out at about 6000 ft and tops out near 12,500 with countless switchbacks. One day I was approaching the mountain and a 5.0 Mustang comes up on me real fast, so I decided to see if I could keep him behind me up the mountain. It was really funny, he’d always pull up real close on the straits, but as soon as we’d hit a switch back, he was hard on the brakes and I was just cruising through the turns (at about twice the suggested speed). After that day, I realized that I didn’t really need more power, and the handling is what you buy a subie for.
Reply to all and bobo69, Adam777, all:
Look at my list of things wrong. What could a previous owner abuse? “Seat bolster’s foam crumbled” is the only item I can see, if the owner weighed 300lbs (I fixed that ;myself with a rolled up carpet-scrap). All the other problems are clearly Subaru’s fault. My Subaru was, for the most part, “fine” when I bought it used. All these problems came during my (non-abusive, intending long-term) ownership.
I didn’t base my Subaru ownership opinion on comparing new cars I’ve owned, to my 84k mile Subaru purchase. My opinion/experience was based on my nearly always buying high mileage used cars. Proper design for durability doesn’t “magically” happen only to cars purchased new.
My highest mileage car ownership so far was a 1989 LeSabre T-Type, purchased at 67k, that I gave away at 235k in 2005. This car was my best ‘cost-miles-transportation value’ I ever had in a car. The Subaru was a joke compare to the LeSabre in this category. By the way, when I bought the LeSabre, I had been in at least three accidents before me and obviously hadn’t been cared for to well (but, the price was right).
As for the Subaru AWD, Subaru uses two systems. For manual transmissions it works all the time, for automatics (mine) it works only at front wheel slippage. I could clearly feel the AWD not working on snow-rutted roads, and I could clearly feel it engage the fronts when I intentionally spun them. The Subaru automatic transmission AWD system, in my opinion, is inferior to the GM Smart-Trak systems that I have used (“used” as in 80MPH in 3 inches if snow).
I love the way Subarus drive. Heck, they have to drive that good to compensate for the suffering many owners experience. I’m just not going to reward Subaru with my cash for such spotty durability anymore.
Ive always like the LGT. I disagree completely that it doesnt have the “chops” to compete with BMW or infinity. There are a large # of people who dont care about, or give any thought to the jones-status of the make. I dont…and shop BMW, Subaru, and Mazda pretty consistently. They all offer a thrill, different degrees of practicality and value.
Regardless, I must agree that Subies are a slightly expensive and I havent been impressed by the dealer experience. As such, I have bought Mazda again and again….no regrets.
With apologies in advance to Subaru loyalists, I cannot for the life of me, figure out why anyone would buy a Subaru. IMHO, across their entire line of vehicles, they make up the ugliest models on the road. Now, the Legacy GT is clearly the best of the bunch – the reviews always maintain that this is a fun vehicle to drive – and it is the most attractive of all the Subies. However, I still think it is bland and generic-looking.
The Tribeca (even post-refresh) is still ugly and don’t even get me started on the various wagons and crossovers..etc. Man – they look like their beaten with an ugly stick.
A couple of years ago, I explored the Legacy GT when I saw how driving enthusiasts love the car. On forums, I saw multiple complaints about a foul smell coming from the Boxer engine. That did it for me considering a Legacy.
Personally, I would not be sad to see this brand go away – it would reduce the visual pollution on the roads.
jim3480,
Live and let live, man! If I wanted all cars that I think are ugly to go away, there would be much less automotive diversity on the roads out there. To me, that’s not a good thing.
To all wishing their subie’s manual shifter was more notchy, there is a mature aftermarket of short-throw shifters available (particularly from one small company that makes them for practically everything Subaru post late ’90s.) Believe me, it will probably be the best $100 and 30 minutes you ever invest in your car.
Joe consumer who is going to spend 35k on a sedan is not going to typically head to the Subaru dealer. Some of that is the cache of a luxury brand name while some of that will also be resale value. There is more of a demand for a used luxury car like a 3 series, C class or A4 than a used Legacy.
Don’t get me wrong I like Subaru, used to have a 02 Outback which was very reliable. It’s just that they need to rethink what they want to be. Are they the AWD performance brand, the rugged AWD safety brand or the AWD near luxury brand? Other than AWD Subaru doesn’t have a clearly defined target audience or mission.
Volvo you think safety
BMW you think performance luxury
Lexus you think Luxury
Mazda you think performance (poor man’s Porsche or BMW)
Subaru you think AWD and that’s about it.
There’s a huge demand for used Subies here in Colorado. They also hold their value very strongly.
Man, the haters are coming out of the woodwork.
On the other hand, Subaru can’t exactly be on the wane if this thread has managed to shoot out to five pages before lunch time.
SherbornSean: I don’t mean to offend Subaru loyalists; it’s an issue of business model, not a criticism of Subaru’s competency. If you compare the Legacy to the Accord, Honda sales are 3-4x the Subaru, both in the US and globally. Long term, how can Subaru stay competitive with a company that can spread its engineering costs over so much more volume?
If Honda drops a turbodiesel and SH-AWD in the TSX/Accord, I think it’s game over for the Legacy. If they do the same in the CR-V, that takes out the Forrester, ditto the Civic/Impreza.
I’m not a Subaru loyalist, far from it, but I think these cars are different enough that they are not likely to be swallowed up. The Forrester, for example, is the plaid flannel shirt of automobiles–ugly but oh, so practical. I can’t think of a car that provides better visibility in all directions, plus Abe Lincoln could probably have worn his stovepipe hat and still fit in the driver’s seat. The Civic, on the other hand, looks cool with that shallow, shallow, wind screen, but a few flakes of snow will blind you, and in summer it and that football-field sized dash are a solar cooker–don’t leave your dog in there for even five minutes!
I don’t see Sube losing its loyalists.
SherbornSean:
May 31st, 2007 at 9:53 am
“I don’t mean to offend Subaru loyalists;”
Oh, no offense taken. I’m just afraid that you might have a point, so I’d rather go into denial.
For right now, I think Subaru is in an OK spot. A corolla can be had for $15K and an Impreza will be $20K. If Subaru doesn’t have the economies of scale that Toyota does, it should still be fine because the Impreza is so far from the Corolla that the $5K doesn’t matter. However, if Toyota does offer AWD in the Corolla for $17K, Subaru may have a problem. I’m not sure where the Matrix story fits into all of this.
I worry that an AWD Corolla will be a dynamically inferior vehicle compared to the Impreza and that the buying public won’t care. They’ll just see AWD (and it’s a toyOta!) for less money and Subaru will evaporate.
jim3480 and ejacobs I read in our paper a list of 10 best selling cars by city and Boulder Colorado stood out by having a Suburu as one of the top 10.
My guess is that AWD is pretty important in Colorado. It isn’t down here in Florida but thats probably Suburu’s niche.
I love Subarus, but when it came to buy recently, I couldn’t bring myself to buy one. The Legacy is about $5K over their natural competitors, they get terrible fuel economy, and the automatic is totally unacceptable.
By going their own way with the boxer, they have worked their way into a corner, much like Mazda has with the rotary. If either of these powerplants were truly superior, don’t you think they would be more popular? Wouldn’t BMW and Honda have Wankels and boxers?
Like I indicated, I’m not a hater. The WRX is still the king in the bang-for-the-buck department. But the Legacy lacks that extra 5% of polish that people expect at that price. Subaru has their work cut out for them.