http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/952855/fromItemId/952839

I think people overlook a lot of stuff that goes wrong with Toyotas.

While the “C” in TTAC is for cars, not computers, my experience with Seagate HDD has been so bad [the other brand to avoid, pretty easy, because they don't make them any more, was the Yugo-quality IBM "Deskstar" SCSI drive, fondly known as the "Deathstar", which ate up years of my data] that to this day, whenever purchasing computers or parts, I insist that the brand not be Seagate/Maxstor.

Which makes me wonder, what brand is the HDD in my BMW that supports the nav system?

Sounds like this person has same luck with his car as I have with Seagate hard drives. First failed in 9 month. Guess what they send me? Refurbished! And how long did it last? Whole THREE month! Way to retain customers! Would never purchase another product from Seagate /Maxtor (same company) as, I’m sure, this person would not want another TATA product.

“a good service department is still the manufacturer’s best defense”
absolutely agreed

I was think along the lines of salesmen screwups as well. I heard of a case where some crap BMW dealership attempted to force delivery on a customer (who’s deposit was already down) for a car not matching his specs. (I believe it was the tranny, the guy wanted manual and the dealer claimed the auto option was value added). This was an internet story though so…large chunks of salt.

Or a more realistic example…I know a guy (not very smart or knowledgable) who bought an Expedition at a huge markup years ago. That’s not so bad, what really sucked was his financing deal was perhaps the most abusive piece of paperwork I’d ever seen. He was going to end up paying nearly double the cars value. Now, I’d normally just say, “you’re an idiot and should just refrain from making decisions” but this was really past that, and basically boiled down to a scam (they didn’t explain the loan terms to him accurately, he says (did I mention he’s an idiot?)). Faking a Lemon would have been justified here by my standards.

Or, I’ve been in dealerships and had them totally misrepresent product before. I was shopping sports cars for someone and the Pontiac guy swore up and down the G6 was RWD and the Stolstice FWD…repeatedly and eventually angrily. I just wanted to smack him, but I could easily see a customer being led astray by that kind of persistence from a supposedly knowledgable source. Someone mislead into a sale like that would have no way to prove the lie occured and would be justified defrauding the OEM.

–chuck

Correction: He spent big bucks on a Land Rover.

That entitles him to a reliable vehicle just as much as a 1973 AMC Pacer entitles its owner to a date with Beyonce.

Besides, it’s not like the car burned its way through 4 transmissions and spent a year in the shop. Most of this guy’s bitching is about high-wear steering and suspension parts, and we ARE talking about an off-road machine with 42,000 miles on the clock. Meh. My 2004 Nissan Quest went through just as many parts in 30,000 miles, and it rarely drove on anything rougher than a pool table.

“Fascinating, I’ve never heard of this before. It might not be the most honest solution to a problem, but I’ve heard of several stories where (if it was me) I would probably consider doing this myself.”

While all my evidence is anectdotal, many manufacturers service reps have seen a suspect lemon law case come through the system.

Lemon law requirements also vary GREATLY from state to state. In some states, if a customer brings a vauge complaint to three different dealers, and they all determine “NPF” (no problem found), the car qulifies for a buy back under that state’s lemon law guidelines, long before the manufacturer even knows there is a problem car in the system.

Tightly defined lemon laws may create a playground for unscrupulous owners, but I wouldn’t want to point my finger exclusively at owners. Sending a car back with “NPF” on the service order is often used to avoid working on cars that requires repairs undefined by the factory flat rate manual. It’s also a great way to create an unhappy customer who now considers their car a LEMON. Because of this, a good service department is still the manufacturer’s best defense.

noreserve, I agree with you. Just pointed to point out that gem as it comes to safety ;-)

And yes, spending 80k+ on a vehicle does not automatically mean that one is entitled to a great experience. Just like some $200 a night hotels can still be horrible. Be responsible and do your own research. My wife and I took the risk to buy a 2002 VW golf because we like the way it drives and the interior, but were ready for higher than average repair costs. They didn’t quite happen, but could (should?) have.

Yeah – It’s so British to say

“Thank you, sir! May I have another?”

Another one is exactly what he wants after months of unrepairable problems with the one he already has.

Fascinating, I’ve never heard of this before. It might not be the most honest solution to a problem, but I’ve heard of several stories where (if it was me) I would probably consider doing this myself.

Re :“he didn’t do his homework – he bought a land rover”

Don’t you see it IS the responsibility of the individual at some level? Hell, I’ve known people to spend 3-months researching mountain bikes before they will spend 800-1K on one.

Range Rover sucks…they are damn near always at the bottom of the quality ratings….always.

He really should do a little research. If this were a Yugo (same quality index w/out the leather)- you would not blame Zastava, would you? No- you’d say “My God…he/she SHOULD have known the Yugo was a POS!!”.

Lots of the comments here sound like a battered wife justifying her husband’s actions:

“he didn’t do his homework – he bought a land rover”

“the dealer fixed the problems under warranty”

“they made him an offer on another car”

All of these excuses defending the manufacturer are crap. This guy spent big bucks on a luxury SUV – isn’t he entitled to a reliable vehicle?

Car companies need to realize that reliability is not an option. It needs to be a “standard feature” on every car regardless of price or purpose.

It seems, the only way to get manufacturers to make quality products these days is to SHAME them or sue them.

If we could only do the same to software companies…

-ted

These resale cars fall into three categories:

1) A stupid fault the dealer missed once or twice that qualified the car for a lemon law buyback in a state with owner friendly lemon laws. If the manufacturer fixes the fault prior to resale, there’s no reason to send the car to a crusher.

2) A customer that used lemon laws to solve “buyer’s remorse”. Dealership techs can tell you tales of cars rolling into the shop with spurious check engine lights for just this reason. On OBD II equipped cars, the computer records conditions present when the light illuminated. If a car shows up five times in a row with a check engine light that set at idle (car stopped with the hood open…), odds are the owner disconnected some electronic sensors in their driveway, just to create a problem. Once again, the car is perfectly fine for resale.

3) True lemons. In most cases, these vehicles can be identified based the reliability of the model in the marketplace. As so many commentators have already said, “If you buy a Land Rover, you get what you pay for.” Frankly, if the manufacturer is already a purveyor of lemons, there isn’t any real reason to keep these cars out of the resale market. They may be lemons, but knowledgable buyers already know this.

I don’t have any kind of data showing the break out for each of the three categories, but I guarantee you Land Rover has far more vehicles in category three (as a percentage) than most manufacturers.

In my experience, 60 Minutes (and really, most news outlets) presents automotive stories using a bias that best suits their needs, typically using the “What an evil corporation” bias. As in so many things in life, it ain’t that simple.

The fact there are problems does NOT make it right…regardless of how wealthy this individual is.

Good for this man I say…at least he isn’t rolling over playing the boot-licking sissy.

And if you say he should direct his hostility towards the company and not the dealership- well, he bought it from this “dealership”….this “dealership” (since they should represent both the customer’s and RR’s best interest) SHOULD be his first approach.

>>>Granted, RR’s ARE known to be pieces-o-sheit …so anyone willing to plop 82-large on one of these things really OUGHT to know what he is buying. If he want’s status over reliability- well, he got it. :) He should have bought a Toyota Land Cruiser.

TonyJZX :
June 4th, 2009 at 6:29 am

they are as suitable for offroading as Corvette

Actually, apart from very sloppy mud, even the 19″/20″ wheel models with stock tires will perform incredibly well. I would advise swapping out for 18″ to get more sidewall cushion and go to a more aggresive tread. Still though, we went places off-road with the stock tires in a LR-provided LR3 that would challenge most any vehicle. The LR3’s electronics, HDC, air suspension, and inherent design are no gimmick. The vehicle will keep up with anything stock and even lightly modified Jeeps/older Landies. If you don’t believe it, search Youtube for clips showing stock LR3 suspension articulation and off-road forays. That thing is a mule.

It is also a tank. It weighs 5,800 lbs and gets 13/18 MPG. We got hit from behind at around 40 MPH by a Jetta and were able to drive away. Jetta was totaled. LR3 had minimal damage. We took a closer look at the Jetta the next day at the towing company and the guy couldn’t believe that the LR3 took that hit and was still drivable. Apart from a sore neck that evening, my wife and I and one of our sons (4-year old) were unharmed. If my wife and I had been in the Corvette, I might not be writing this today. That is definitely one of the safest vehicles out there. Weight, height, boron steel and the like make for a nice cage. Thanks for that LR3.

Now, on to the bad stuff…

Here’s the list of problems that I had the LR3 into the dealer for in the span of the 30 month lease:

* fuel tank replacement (recall)
* middle sunshade won’t stay latched (never fixed properly after three times)
* new powertrain ECU software update to fix lurching
* POS Goodyear Wrangler tires replaced after uneven wear from early model year suspension geometry problem from factory (replaced with Pirelli Scorpions at half price “goodwill” effort)
* nav screen flicker “fixed” with new ECU software download (never to my satisfaction after three tries)
* low coolant warning problem fixed with new coolant expansion tank (faulty level sensor)
* sunroof leak fixed by opening the drain tube outlet more (headliner replaced)
* tailgate squeak
* passenger speaker rattle (resecured speaker grille to bracket, but never completely fixed)
* transmission range change not available error message (did not reappear)
* third-row seat handle plastic cover came off twice and replaced
* Land Rover hood letters flaking (replaced)
* black plastic cowl trim faded and worn badly in first year (lived with it)
* vehicle had to be towed in to fix second fuel tank assembly
* replaced front and rear brake pads and flushed brake system at 20K for $621
* recall on steering column rotary coupler wiring (fit foam pads and spacers)
* steering wheel delaminating on top (replaced steering wheel)

On top of all of the service problems, I recently turned it into Land Rover Capitol at the end of the lease and they would not budge on charging me $720 for a completely new wheel that had only a cosmetic scrape (I had them dismount the wheel and I loaded it in my Accord prior to signing the lease turn-in papers. I had them put the damn spare on. I will sell it on ebay or give it to a homeless person to use as an endtable before I’d turn it back to LRC)

We have decided to do the Land Rover Experience at Biltmore in the future if we need another off-road fix. Much cheaper in the long run. Glad to turn that thing in. There is a reason why we have only a Honda Element and Accord in our driveway now.

I would think that would qualify the vehicle as a lemon under the current lemon laws. I’d have to check California’s statutes, but generally 30 days in the shop like that soon after purchase makes it a lemon and eligible for buyback.

Sounds like enough to get a lemon law refund on that POS. Any vehicle that bad in the first month of ownership is probably going to be an ongoing headache. Some years back we got a 100% refund on a Chrysler T&C minivan under the lemon law. The secret: Hire an attorney who specializes in lemon law cases. Never fall for the arbitration trap.

Does the UK have lemon laws?

Based on the discussion from the YSE Used Jaguar thread, the consensus seemed to be that the post-2004 XJ and XJR were in fact pretty reliable vehicles.

Out of curiosity I checked CR’s (I know, I know) reliability report for the XJ, and for the only 2 years for which they have sufficient data (2004 and 2005) they have it rated as average reliability.

So, my plan to talk the wife into letting me get a used XJR has just entered stage 1. :)

Also Car and Driver or Motor Trend did a review a few years ago and literally had components falling off the car during a review.

Worst Cars Made.

On the other hand, I hear from another friend who owns a Jag that his 2006 XJR has been amazingly reliable. However, he’s owned Jags since 1986, so he may just be punch drunk from decades of poor reliability. :-)

“Naff” is just a more polite way of saying “F**k”.

i.e “Naff off”, “Naff all”.

However one CAN’T go “Naff” oneself. Or be a “Mothernaffer”.

Naff is also a way of describing something as “lame”.

i.e. This Chrysler Sebring is really naff.

Hope this helps.