While it seems perfectly natural to assume that clicks on cars reveal trends down at the showroom, I'm not entirely convinced. For example, Autoblog's post on GayWheels top ten researched vehicles would have you believe that a large number of Dodge Caliber buyers are that way inclined. So when the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) put out a press release claiming "interest in motorcycles increases as commuters seek two-wheel alternatives" based on their website's traffic, I was interested to see if they mentioned any "real world" impact. To their credit, they did, right from the git-go. "Motorcycle buying interest at NADAguides.com increased 48 percent in March 2008 compared to March 2007, even though sales of motorcycles were down over seven percent at the end of 2007, with NADAguides.com estimating sluggish sales so far this year." And yet, motorcycle ed Lenny Sims is ready to climb out on that limb. "We believe the current state of the economy, coupled with recent summer fuel price predictions, has caused consumer mindset about motorcycles to shift. In our opinion, motorcycles have become attractive options as primary vehicles for daily drivers — due to their fuel efficiency — and are no longer considered just a luxury, 'secondary-vehicle' purchase." Your take?
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My brother-in-law just bought a Honda motorcycle to use on his commute. For him it’s not so much the mileage as the ability to use the HOV lanes. Besides, he likes his toys. He gets to play on the way to and from work and gets there happier and less stressed than he would be otherwise.
I’m still nervous about the idea of my sister riding with him though.
1997 Honda Pacific Coast. Had one for quite awhile. 800cc v-twin, integrated rear trunk, very quiet and excellent wind protection. Man, I want one bad, again.
@schempe: I think you just proved jpc0067’s point
Not at all. jpc0067 seemed to think that people dislike bike riders. I don’t. I gladly give them wide berth on the freeway so they can safely split the lane. But the fact that I don’t mind them doesn’t in any way mean that I want to ride myself in the commute traffic (recreational ride is something different altogether).
@Landcrusher: If you ever owned a motorcycle, you would know about the attitudes you catch from people who think you are a crazy mad man for riding.
I rode when I was much, much younger (seems like previous incarnation ;)). Yes, you do find jerks everywhere. It’s an unfortunate fact of life.
I was curious about your item number 6. How does a motorcycle have worse impact than a car?
More polluting per gallon of fuel (as far as I know), maintenance items are more frequent – tires changed much more frequently than cars. Also, I don’t believe they last nearly as long as cars all in all, therefore add to the production energy usage costs.
@240d: I’d be curious as to how many readers of TTAC have traded in one car for a smaller, more economical car. The last I heard, everyone was towing boats to Moab.
I don’t even know where Moab is, but where I work (Silicon Valley) a vast majority of people commute in small cars.
I have a 49.9 cc scooter for this very reason. 85-90mpg. And in Missouri its considered a motorized bicycle so I dont have to liscense or insure it.
Of course its only averages about 30 mph, but there are lots of performance upgrades, and its easily rebuildable.
With my ‘83 Honda VT500 Ascot, I get 55 mpg riding hard, 65 mpg babying. It’s a toy, but with my wife’s 50cc scooter that gets 100 mpg (and goes 40 mph), we save an awful lot of gas commuting three seasons in Denver, and that’s with two Civics as our cars (EX and Si). The motorcycle was $1600, the scooter $1700 new. That’s pretty cheap long-term fun, IMO.
Eeveryone is looking at the wrong two-seaters. Scooters are a commuters best friend. Much better fuel milage than motorcycles, more comfortable, much less maintaining costs (smaller tires, simpilar drivetrains)
Huge range of choices, 49cc to 650cc as far as I know.
Jolo’s insightful comments bear repeating. Regardless of how unrealistic, the following would solve everything:
You want to make motorcycles more acceptable in this country? Mandate that those who get their driver’s license HAVE to only ride a motorcycle for the first two years before they are allowed to drive a car. People will be more alert to bikes once they are in a car because the average MC rider pays better attention to their surroundings than those in a car who have never ridden on a bike.
Sure, there will be lots of injuries and deaths (the Darwin factor) the first decade or so, but in the grand scheme of things, there would be better car drivers on the road once they have to learn how to properly drive.
@Mullholland: Jolo’s insightful comments bear repeating. Regardless of how unrealistic, the following would solve everything:
You want to make motorcycles more acceptable in this country? Mandate that those who get their driver’s license HAVE to only ride a motorcycle for the first two years before they are allowed to drive a car.
Yeah, right. I don’t even know where to begin (or bother to).
Sure, there will be lots of injuries and deaths (the Darwin factor) the first decade or so, but in the grand scheme of things, there would be better car drivers on the road once they have to learn how to properly drive.
Yeah, that’s brilliant. Let’s kill a bunch of people, that will make better drivers out of them.
Like I said, where do you even begin to comment seriously on this?
@hwyhobo
Apologies for trying to be a wise guy.
One of the previous Question Of The Day’s asked if there were any good reasons to own an SUV. Seemed like there were a bunch of people who towed boats and a good handful of folks that drove around Moab (Utah desert, hiking, home of much mountain biking). Here I was thinking all these big old trucks were write offs.
I have a bike (Ducati 620 Multistrada), and no car (but the wife does) and while I can’t argue that it efficiently replaces a small commuter car, as I read this thread I thought of all the SUV owners from the other board and then wondered if any downsizing, if not to bikes then to smaller cars, is happening at all amongst the readership. Or, is gas still simply the cheapest part of owning a vehicle and if so, how much does gas have to cost before it isn’t the cheapest part of driving?
Obviously I’m not good at Total Cost Of Ownership math.
@240d, I think gas is a serious part of cost of ownership if you have to commute regularly. Size of the car is also a negative if you live in a place like Silicon Valley where parking may be at a premium. Handling of a large SUV is also a minus for me.
Mind you, I am not religious about it. If someone has a good reason for owning one vehicle or other, fine with me. I just cannot justify driving one of those large SUVs (even though I could afford it) simply because I have very little need for it that couldn’t be satisfied using cheaper means, and I consider it counterproductive to one’s future financial well-being (and that of the society around him) to spend money frivolously.
I guess that might tell you what I think of government’s spending habits. :|
Re: #1. Have you tried wearing that leather batman outfit over a suit?
I guess that I come by it naturally because I used to watch my father, another iron-butt, zip up a one-piece snow suit over a three piece suit-and-tie. He rode 12 months over a 100 mile commute.
Also, for those that say the gas savings isn’t worth, I think that you are missing a big part of the equation. My other car is a beater XJ6 that AVERAGES 14mpg and the catalytic converters are shot. A 45mpg (super)bike is a HUGE improvement. That doesn’t even include the fuel sipping scooters, 250cc’s, etc. The 2008 bikes now need catalytic converters, too (thanks, greenies). A bike makes a whole lotta sense when compared with other $3500 options for savings, fun and environmentalism.
I think alot of people here have REALLY never spent any time in a third world country or really calculated the cost of a cheap (small, not 1000cc) bike.
Take a used, few year old 250 and you are talking 2-3k for something in GREAT shape.
My car (never having a moving violation in 16 years) costs $120/month in insurance. My wifes car about $65/month (neon beater). My 600cc sportbike with FULL coverage is sub $400 per YEAR. Not to mention my bike uses 1/3 the gas.
My wifes tires are at least $50 ea. + install/mounting/balancing. My bike is probably the same cost for 2. My car (STi) stock tires are $200 EA on sale. You go through tires faster (I don’t, really…) but you are only replacing 2 at a time. I can tell you not even getting close to the cost of fuel, a gixxer-600 is signifcantly cheaper to maintain than my STi.
In MANY countries that are not first world, motorcycles & scooters are the _ONLY_ way to get around economically outside of public buses which may or may not be reliable/safe/go where you want to go.
My cousin spent 2 years in Africa and having a dual sport was a lifesaver. I have been in Brazil several times (6? 7 ? I lost track) and there are as many motorcycles in the small cities I go as cars, BECAUSE they are cheaper to maintain, fix, and use so much less gas ($5.50-$6/gallon when I was there this year in march.)
The “bikes are only good for single people without children and are more expensive than cars” is a very typical american attitude.
I saw several kids on the back of different 125cc’s as passengers as young as 7 or 8 years old. I saw many husband/wife bf/gf sharing 125cc’s as commuter bikes with no problems.
Yep bikes are more dangerous than cars, and are very hard to drive in places with snow/cold, however 50 years or less from now, I predict we will be in a situation where motorcycles are looked at really no more differently than cars.
I just got a 49cc Yamaha Zuma scooter two weeks ago. And yes its great getting over 70mpg for my around town chores.I wouldn’t live W/O the car, but its not that hard to limit yourself to streets 45 mph or less in the urban-ish area I live. Also it didn’t require a special license and the ins could be had for as little as 75$ a year.
I drive a Honda Insight and average 70 mpg. A bike has no advantage over that fuel economy.
A bike would still be tempting due to its ability to avoid sitting in line in commuter traffic, but the safety issues far outweigh that. As others have noted, bike riders are much at risk from the idiocy of other drivers.
But also bike riders are the worst drivers on the road by my observation. They often pilot their bikes with no apparrent regard to their own safety. Travelling much faster than surrounding traffic, weaving and riding between the lanes to overtake lines of moving traffic are behaviour that I often see. I am more suprised by bike riders obeying the road rules than I am by those not doing so.
ghillie: in any jurisdiction in North America, except California, you need to break the law to get any kind of advantage in traffic (unless there is an HOV lane). Here, for example, it is nearly a $300 fine for lane splitting or riding on the shoulder. Big price to pay.
I don’t mind the dieing part. It’s the getting laid up in a hospital part which is more likely(I don’t like hospitals). Getting seriously and or permanently injured, disfigured, dismembered, or paralyzed. So easy to do. Go get a big dog liter bike or bigger and hot rod it around.
Bikes might full well be a lot of fun. A dangerous way to have fun though.
A crash at 170 and survived…. I don’t think I’d be so lucky though: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vT5ZzdO_ER0
Watch enough of those videos and you’ll tend to shy away from two wheel action.
Back in 2001 I bought a three year old Honda Helix for $1000. Nine months and $200 later in repairs I sold it for $2800. It was a very durable scooter that could get me around the 70’s (70 mpg, 70 mph). It also had one of the most awkward sitting positions I’ve experienced in any vehicle, and the front suspension was virtually non-existent. Overall a very durable but highly overrated Honda.
Second and third ones were Honda Elite’s. One 80cc’s and one 50cc’s. The first was boring to ride, had a terrible exhaust note, but was tough as nails. The second was just like the first except it was absolutely gutless. In both cases I could have modified them to get by in most of the winding one lane roads around town. But these scooters had all the personality of a weed whacker so… why bother.
A Vespa ET4 was bought with a salvage title, 3 miles on the odometer, and a complementary tow dolly that could fit two scooters. It literally was hit when driven out of a Vespa dealership while on that dolly. The ‘all too brief’ owners spend nearly $6000 altogether, and I got everything for $2300. The Vespa was fun to drive, but the price for parts would have made anyone looking for long-term ownership role their eyes. The filters alone were five times the cost of nearly any motorcycle and the chrome took in rust within a year. Sold it for a good profit, don’t regret it.
Now I have a 2001 Yamaha XC125 with 1100 miles that was bought in 2005, a few months before the Katrina deal, for $1000. A full faced helmet that passed dual safety specs came with it, and it’s averaged about 90 mpg for me. It can go up to 55 mph, but is far happier at 45 mph. I only drive it down one lane roads which are very common in my neck of the woods.
As for motorcycle safety? Don’t even get me started. Upon the founding of a group of scooter riders that were deemed ‘Scooterholics’, our group had to deal with several sub-humanoids who thought that scooters should be used for stunts and commuting one’s self without insurance. One guy punctured his lung and broke numerous bones, one shattered his hand, and another brought all the newbies out to a stunt course to encourage Darwin’s law of averages.
These elements were gleefully purged from the ‘Scooterholics’ in a rather nasty exchange of emails, and we ended up with a far older, and far wiser group of people. Even so, I rue the day when the average American gets on a scooter and goes down the road. When that day comes, it will make the Chinese record of safety enviable.
I don’t know guys. Everything is dangerous. I personally know about 5x as many people killed in car/car accidents than motorcycle accidents. YMMV.
The worst for road rules are BICYCLISTS who ride in the street. I have almost hit several because they figure the red lights do not apply to them and they don’t even break stride when coming to an intersection (this was in my car, mind you. Lucky at least one of us was paying attention). What infuriates me further is bicyclists who ride around with their headphones on.
ghille> The problem with the insight is severalfold: 1) No longer produced. How is procuring parts? 2) initial cost (15k new ? I don’t know, you tell me). 3) what do you do when your batteries no longer function years down the road? 4) How do you keep cars running up your butt on the onramp? (my same conern with the 250cc I’m pondering).
Motorcycles avoid all of these and can get the same or better (or worse if you go for something over 250cc) with a much better bang-to-buck ratio.
I’ve been riding bikes for over thirty years, both street and dirt. The town I live in is a lot like Mayberry and I enjoy riding the street bike, an ‘83 Honda Ascot VT500 bought new, (high five ejacobs) around here, but I don’t take it to Mount Pilot. Heavy traffic multiplies the number of distracted car and truck driving idiots you have to defend youself against. The key to surviving the street is to assume no one can see you & everyone is going to pull out in front of you. I did just buy an street legal dirt bike, ‘08 Honda CRF240L, but not for the mileage. I bought it for the fun of riding dirt roads and trails, and the convienance of being able to ride to the trails on the street legally.
For anyone contemplating the purchase of a first motorcycle I highly recommend a rider safety course to help insure your survival. I’ve never ridden bikes for fuel mileage, just for fun and the “ultimate convertible” sensation. When it comes to going any great distance, I prefer the XK-8 with the top down, even if it only drinks premimum and a lot of it.
As a “casual” rider of 30+ years, I can say that if you choose two wheels as a form of “economical” transport, you’re likely riding a machine that’s too slow and vulnerable to ride in many situations, and you’re relying on the competency of others to make your ride safer.
I’m now riding a 750cc Kawasaki that goes like Hell, stops like the Devil, and takes corners well enough to outrun any vehicle that’s not actively trying to catch me.
It’s a ‘war” out there, with crazy SUV drivers, pissed-off office types, etc. so you need the proper “weapon” to play; anything less, and you’re going to end up a red spot on the asphalt.
That said (ranted?), in more sedate surroundings, a motorcycle or scooter can be an economic plus, but on Pennsylvania roads, you need lots of power and very sticky tires to have any advantage over the “cagers”. Thus, 40 or so MPG, 3k out of a set of $300 tires, a new $200 helmet every 2 years, and (for me) $250 full coverage insurance. The bike was $6900 OTD in 2006.
I still own my Yamaha DT100 Enduro two-stroke, one of the only toys I’ve retained from my misspent youth. That little enduro will out accelerate most cars from 0 to 40. Unfortunately, its practical top speed is only about 50-55mph, so it can’t be used on a highway. Gas mileage is about 80mpg. I could legally use it on the street, since it is a dual purpose bike with lights, horn, etc. I don’t think I would actually try it, it’s not a question of if some dullard in an Escalade will run me over, but when.
I’m also a bicycle enthusiast. Mileage wise, it would be practical for me to commute to work on all but the coldest/snowiest days. Although the commute isn’t very far, I would have to ride a large part of it on major arterial roads where the traffic is bumper-to-bumper and moving at 50mph. There are a number of abandoned rail lines around here that could easily be converted into fantastic bike trails, but that ain’t gonna happen. Bicycle riders don’t pay gas taxes, or any road taxes for that matter.
I ride a brand new honda rebel that $3100 and insure for $400 a year. I get 65 mpg and i ride anytime its above 30 F.. unless its raining.. then it has to be 50 F. Basicaly most of you are just wimps. Death? it happens.. i’ve already totaled a bike by killing a deer.
I saw an EV Scooter in Autoweek – looked pretty incredible until I saw the price tag.
hwyhobo,
It’s not the pollutants per gallon that matters, it’s the pollutants per mile. I doubt very seriously that any motorcycles are less green than anything else. Maybe some of the ones people dork with to make funny sounds or to race with.
I still own my Yamaha DT100 Enduro two-stroke, one of the only toys I’ve retained from my misspent youth.
I’ve never seen an enduro bike that is street legal; they don’t have blinkers and such (they do have a headlight and taillight). They are cross-country racers.
Now a dual-purpose bike (Honda XL series) would be my choice for daily riding IF I were going to do that.
Landcrusher, smell the exhaust of nearly any motorcycle and you’ll know your statement is wrong. No catalytic converters plus carburators or rudimentary fuel injection make for very dirty emissions. Think cars from the 70’s, only with the displacement scaled down. Crankcase and gas tank venting are often also just tubes that vent into the atmosphere. After every time I’d ride, my clothes and hair smelled of gasoline, and it’s not because the bike leaked.
Race exhausts don’t increase emissions – only sound pollution. And the guys removing the cats on the newest bikes that come equipped with them are just jerks. When your sport bike has 130-180+ hp and weighs under 500 lbs, how can you seriously tell me you can justify polluting MUCH more to gain a (theoretical) couple of horsepower?
@TexasAg03
I’ve never seen an enduro bike that is street legal; they don’t have blinkers and such (they do have a headlight and taillight). They are cross-country racers.
That’s because you’re probably not old enough to remember the 70’s. Yes, my enduro has a speedometer, blinkers, horn etc. It’s not legal for highways, (that’s because of the small displacement) it is legal on secondary roads.
Have a look:
http://thebrighams.com/1975%20Yamaha%20DT100.JPG
Yes, my enduro has a speedometer, blinkers, horn etc.
Maybe things have changed since the late 70s/early 80s, but in that time, when I was reading about motorcycles, a true enduro bike had no more than a headlight and a taillight and was NOT street legal at all. They were made for cross-country races (by cross-country I mean through the woods via trails). They could not have tires that were street legal because they needed the traction.
Bikes that were street legal but looked like dirt bikes were called “dual-purpose” or “dual-sport” bikes. At least that’s the way they were referred to by the magazines of the day.
The current XR650L is a dual-purpose bike and the XR650R is an enduro bike (or at least is similar to what an enduro is-I don’t know what Honda calls it officially).
That’s what I have seen/read over the years. Just another $.02…
@TexasAG03
Maybe things have changed since the late 70s/early 80s, but in that time, when I was reading about motorcycles, a true enduro bike had no more than a headlight and a taillight and was NOT street legal at all.
Have a look at this picture:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3j6z2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/62_1.jpg
Can you see what it says on the oil tank? It says, “Enduro”. Yamaha use to build these single cylinder 2 strokes in displacement ranging from 80cc all the way up to 500cc.
Can you see what it says on the oil tank? It says, “Enduro”. Yamaha use to build these single cylinder 2 strokes in displacement ranging from 80cc all the way up to 500cc.
Yamaha can call it whatever they want, but that doesn’t make it so. Automakers refer to vehicles by types that don’t fit all the time. Go to GM.com and search for cars by type. Under “sport/convertible” they list the Grand Prix. I think most would agree that the Grand Prix is far from a sports car.
Marketing hype doesn’t change what something is. Enduro racing is racing through rough terrain and/or forest areas with bikes built for the purpose. You don’t need blinkers for that, and true enduro bikes don’t have them.