regarding insight, which I sat in, I cannot sit in the backseat – I’m 6′2″. Way to go Honda. Here’s some advice: put in a slightly bigger battery, bump the rear roofline up an inch, and tell your dealers to leave off the $2000 markup. The car would be better AND cheaper AND get better gas mileage than the current compromise plus dealer inflation.

I’m not ignorant about oil refining, I do it myself out in my barn!

140,000 trouble-free miles most of which has been run on fuel I make myself for under a buck a gallon.

–chuck

Edward Loh, Motor Trend – 63.7 MPG
“The A/C is off, and I’ve got the windows sealed tight to maximize my aerodynamic efficiency. I don’t think the radio reduces the output of my Honda Insight’s IMA system, but I have it off just in case. All I can hear is the quiet hum of the tires as I try to keep my speedo green and the gas engine from firing up…I pull in, soaked and elated: My instantaneous average looks to be 63.7 mpg through this mostly city course. That’s over 20 mpg higher than the 43 mpg those ninnies at the EPA got on the highway.”

Sam Abuelsamid, Autobloggreen – 63.4 MPG
“The [test drive] loop consisted of mostly stop and go driving over varied terrain (up and down hills) with speed limits ranging from 25-55 mph in and around Carefree, Arizona. I stuck to the speed limits and kept a light foot on the throttle and brake pedals. With the speedometer up above the steering wheel, the colored background [providing efficiency feedback] was easily visible in my peripheral vision. Glancing down to the main efficiency indicator graph helped to optimize my driving style. With all the feedback I was able to achieve 62.2 mpg over the 16-mile loop. A second attempt later in the afternoon yielded an even better 63.4 mpg.”

Jerry Garrett, New York Times – 65 mpg
“After failing to get exceptional mileage at the press introduction of the new Honda Insight, I was eager for a retrial. A few weeks later, I drove an Insight for another 1,000 miles with better results. My drive was broken into segments of 40 to 80 miles. Mileage on the early sections was similarly unimpressive. But one of the later segments, of 82 miles, yielded 65 mpg at an average speed of 65 mph.”

As far as the styling – certainly no worse than a Prius – in fact I prefer the Clarity-like front grille to the Prius front end any day…

You hit the nail right on the head I think…that sounds just like it. It’s possible that if I grew up driving these I might not object so strongly to the trait. Then again, I never enjoyed the old Ford/Dodge 4-speed autos so… I agree that the Altima wasn’t as awful, but a lot of that I would have just attributed to the goodness of the 3.5.

I’ve also heard that the Maxima is an improvement on the CVT breed (haven’t driven it yet) but I just can’t wrap my head around the decision to put a tranny that many customers are going to find questionable at best in a “sports sedan.” I suppose the situation’s not too different from the automated manuals audi/bmw/lambo/etc… are offering despite the fact that every upshift feels like a horse just kicked the car into gear (referencing an R8 and a bmw). Both are just taking opposite transmission traits way too far towards an extreme. My bet is they didn’t want to develop a new AT that wasn’t part of the fleet-milage improvement program. I, for one, like Nisaan, but hope this decision costs them a lot of money.

What’s up with Honda’s transmissions in general? They still sell a ton of truly awful 4-speed autos and I haven’t heard of anything coming down the pipe that will change that (besides the problematic CVT). You’d think that they would be on top of this if anyone would be. Aren’t they supposed to be the Japanese version of the VAG?

Do the math.

Suppose you drive 15,000 miles per year.

10mpg = 1500 gallons
20mpg = 750 gallons
30mpg = 500 gallons
40mpg = 375 gallons
50mpg = 300 gallons

The savings for each of these increments are:

750 (1500 – 750)
250 (750 – 500)
125 (500 – 375
75 (375 – 300)

So roughly by order of magnitude:
A. Ditching an SUV for a Camry saves 750 gallons / year.
B. But the difference between Insight/Fusion versus Prius is 75 gallons / year.

Bottom Line:
Once you get to the range of 40mpg, you need a huge improvement in mpg to save serious fuel and carbon Even a doubling of mileage to 80mpg only saves around 188 gallons annually.

Art

I think I know the sensation you’re talking about, and it is bizzare. I haven’t tried a CVT Mini (and didn’t the Cooper S come with a ‘normal’ AT?), and the Prius isn’t a CVT in the classical sense, but I do remember a distinct difference between the way the Versa handled quick throttle inputs versus the Altima: the latter had less of that slipping-in-gear feeling. I’ve heard the Maxima is better still.

From what I recall, what happens is that the CVT instantly cranks up the ratio, but doesn’t change the engine RPM to match. You end up with this weird RPM pegging sensation where the engine note doesn’t even remotely agree with the wheel speed, and it’s disconcerting. The Altima 3.5 had enough shove to kind of make this a non-issue, but in the Versa the engine is so gutless that what acceleration there is gets offset by the weirdness. The Insight is probably going to be similar.

I really enjoyed the Altima 3.5 CVT, for what it’s worth. The power was just seamless.

On the other hand VW does go endurance racing with what I believe is the same DSG that they sell on Monday, so possible high cost aside the DSG may not be crap.

Reliability with regards to racing is hard to extrapolate into “real life”. A racing transmission just has to last the length of the race, not years of normal driving. Think about the rotary engine: it’s really well-suited to endurance racing, too, but in the hands of mere mortals is a time bomb.

I didn’t bring this up before but the CVT’s are the ones with truly awful histories (some Japanese guy in some article I saw claimed they solved that…)

That would be Nissan’s units. Most CVTs were pretty torque-limited and suffered from heat and stress. Nissan’s unit doesn’t suffer from this, or at least doesn’t suffer any more than a conventional AT might, if you keep an eye on the fluid.

I would worry about Honda’s CVT. The Civic Hybrid hasn’t held up well in this respect. I was schooled on this recently by a fellow TTAC’er, and confirmed the same in Consumer Reports.

Go to a dealership. Both VW and Honda. Ak them to show you the car from BELOW. That’s right, have them put the car up on the rack. Have a look at the quality of the car and it’s components from the business end of things. You will notice a whole lot from this point of view…. German engineering is designed to LAST.

——————————————–
I think you got the wrong conclusion.

From the evidence you provided, I can only see that German engineering is designed to look good from underbelly.

If you want to know what is designed to LAST, go read a Consumer Report.

My criticism of the CVT is based entirely on personal preference. I actually like the lack of thumping (hence the nod over an older 4 speed auto), but there’s something about the initial application of power that I find incredibly distasteful. Not so much the steady state power application, highway driving feels pretty much the same in 5th gear or infinite gear, but on tight roads where throttle off/on happens every couple dozen feet (opinion based off of MINI, Altima and Prius, the other CVT’s I drove were SUVs and not really on back roads). I probably wouldn’t be bothered by this in a truck sized ride, but in the 3 mentioned above it was enough to ruin the cars for me. Ruined as in demanding my money back and/or creating a stink in the dealership if it was my money.

I absolutely share your reservations about the DSG’s complexity but seeing as I share those reservations about all non-manuals it’s not too significant to me. Too many crap Dodge and Ford truck autos in my family growing up I guess. On the other hand VW does go endurance racing with what I believe is the same DSG that they sell on Monday, so possible high cost aside the DSG may not be crap.

I didn’t bring this up before but the CVT’s are the ones with truly awful histories (some Japanese guy in some article I saw claimed they solved that, not clear to me if that was BS or not). That same MINI I drove needed a new transmission (at I believe well over $6k, not sure) not even a year later.

Why? I mean really, why? Other than the fact that it sounds funny, it does a better job of getting the power to the road than any other option. It doesn’t slip or grind, waste power stirring fluid or have a monstrously complex set of gears, valves and solenoids.

Compared to the ticking financial time bomb that is a DSG (have you looked inside one of those things?) or a 6+AT, it’s a model of simplicity. The problem, near as I can tell, is that it doesn’t “thump” and give a rush of acceleration on shifting, which enthusiasts find disconcerting and gearheads associate with a slipping AT.

@ttacgreg: the stepped manual override is absolutely essential to me. When the road is snowpacked, I rely on the tachometer to tell me if the wheels are slipping;. The CVT in a loaner Sentra scared the hell out of me because I could not tell if the wheels were slippmg, or the cvt was doing its smooth sweeping rpm increase on slick roads when accelerating.

One, that’s what traction control is for. The Insight comes with both traction and stability control.

Two, I’ve had similar behaviour from an AT, especially in a car that does have TC and/or doesn’t have particularly sensitive steering. I was never sure when my Saab was slipping, and I really can’t tell if my Sienna is, either. I can feel it instantly in my Fit, as I could in my old Protege.

I can usually feel a certain “lightness” or “floatiness” in the steering of your average front-driver when it starts to slip and I’m surprised it wasn’t evident in the Sentra. I did feel it in the Altima, but it’s possible the Sentra might have a suckier steering rack. I can’t (or don’t) clue into the RPM for this purpose, but that’s just me.

You’d also die in a crash with a bicycle, it could probably get to sixty in about ten seconds, had ass-on-the-floor seating that no one really likes, in retrospect, and was smaller in every sense than Fit, let alone the Insight.

A fair comparison would have been the Accord of the same day. In that light, the Insight is a much better car.

It bugs me when people drag late 80s/early 90s economy cars as valid competitors to something like the Insight. You may as well consider motorcycles and the Tata Nano, because they’re about as valid in terms of crash safety, emissions and content.

Where are you getting your information? The Honda Civic Hybrid has been “Much better than average” since 04, according to Consumer Reports (and many owners, I’m certain). Even the 03 was rated “Better than average”. You are way off base.

yaesumofo :
…
TDI is very much a car which is built with high quality components and engineering….The Current crop of Jettas are also VERY Safe.
As a prior Honda owner…The VW Fit and Finish when combined with the quality engineering build and design COMPLETLY BLOW AWAY the Honda product.
…

Quality German components do not equate with trouble-free ownership. Ask many former owners of VW Passats. Or A4s. Or fill-in-the-blank. Reliability of the VW/Audi models has only recently improved (on some models). While I appreciate German engineering as much as the next geek, I chose an Accord over the VW/Audi as a daily driver, simply because I didn’t want to worry about the reliability of at least one of my vehicles. Don’t ask about the others.

The Honda range is also very safe. Of course, as the recent IIHS demonstration shows, just make sure you don’t compare different weights. I wouldn’t want to be in the Insight and get hit by even an Accord.

Go to a dealership. Both VW and Honda. Ak them to show you the car from BELOW. That’s right, have them put the car up on the rack. …

I’m betting that most VW owners have plenty of opportunities to check out their cars on the dealer racks, unfortunately. The diesel engines may last quite a bit longer than most of the electrical parts on the VWs. Someone should have lost their head several years ago at VW/Audi for their atrocious lack of quality control on those – go figure – quality German components.

As for the Insight, I’m not sure I can deal with any more road noise than my 08 Accord. Honda also deserves someone’s head on a platter for their across-the-board road noise. If you’re going to use hard, noisy tires, thin sheet metal and such, you need to shore it up with more insulation. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. At the flyweight this thing checks in at, I imagine it’s got a lot to say over course pavement.

I can see the 4 out of 5 stars on the review. It’s a boring hybrid, but it has likely been executed as well as you can at that level. CVT, unfortunately, goes with the territory. Flimsy sheet metal? Typical Honda. Shape that looks like a retarded jellybean? Check.

Prices are probably marked up like any other new Honda intro. They will come down. Until then, Honda dealers will continue to find any way they can to mark it up. And what’s with the pin stripes on nearly every Honda you can find? I thought those went out of style in 89, but I find them still rampant in 2009.

Gas prices would have to be up in the $4+ gallon range to consider living with this level of awkward/ugly. At least it’s practical with a hatch. Can’t say that for the Civic Hybrid. Honda quotes mileage that looks to be several above what was seen in the review.

I enjoyed the review Michael. Love the “It’s not like you can downshift, spool up and goose the little bastard.” How true.

Any hard data to back that up? Or is it your imagination only?

I withdraw my comment on the batteries as my new research indicates that the cost of replacement is substantially less than for my DSG transmission. :)

Here are a couple of links to reviews of the 2009 TDI where the author states that the previous TDI’s often went hundreds of thousands of miles. I have no reason to believe that they are wrong.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/09/in-the-autobloggreen-garage-2009-volkswagen-jetta-tdi/

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/11/02/214387.html

I wanted this car to be good. I’m disappointed. Honda seems to be getting soft. Acura has gone awry. The Accord is a bit off. The Pilot has fallen to mediocrity. CRV is mid-pack. There’s work to be done.

That fine little chariot did an honest-to-goodness 45 mpg (US) on the highway. It did this without regenerative braking, redundant electric motors, and expensive battery packs. And its dashboard did not resemble that of the Battlestar Galactica. It was just a simple little 2039 pound car with a 92 horsepower engine, and I like to think that somewhere out there it is still running some kid to school for pennies a day.

I loved that car, and the company that built it. The modern-day Insight might be a smarter, safer vehicle, but to me there isn’t an ounce of common sense in it.

My .02 on the TDI issue since I have friends with different years of TDIs. Love the way it drives…especially love the torque, BUT I swear those Check Engine lights like flashing like Christmas lights. After a reset, the diagnosis comes back as a glitch. Combine that with the VW/Audi habit of chewing up lightbulbs and one must wonder the long term life of the electrical system. I was recently behind a newer Jetta (judging by the taillights, I’m guessing around a 2007-08 with the smoke black tinting light cover), and it already had three dead lights. It could be a minor issue for owners until the brake lights burn out and someone slams into you.

Last thing – I think Honda had to drop another $1000 or so off of the Insight price. The price leap between an Insight and base Prius isn’t that large…and the Prius is the 800lb gorilla. I’d compare it to the Zune (Honda) against the iPod (Toyota) in the hybrid hatch market. Once you calculate yet another round of Toyota discounting (and the terrible six months of ads on TV that go with that), the prices might equal out.

We shall see…

This is not true.

Prius dash: http://z.about.com/d/alternativefuels/1/0/F/F/-/-/08_Prius_cockpit.jpg Notice that the center stack is shifted to the passenger side compared to the center tunnel. There are also enough differences (like the recess in the driver side near the stack) in the dash top that they can’t just use the same part.

Echo dash: http://www.familycar.com/roadtests/toyotaecho/Images/Echo-Dash-Med.jpg Notice the lack of an airbag on the upper dash on the driver side where it exists on the passenger side.

“I rely on the tachometer to tell me if the wheels are slipping;. The CVT in a loaner Sentra scared the hell out of me because I could not tell if the wheels were slippmg, or the cvt was doing its smooth sweeping rpm increase on slick roads when accelerating.”

As if I needed another reason to hate the technology. I haven’t driven a CVT in the snow, but some of them do definitely have faked gears…did you get to try one of those?

the battery cost thing is definitely overblown a bit, but it is a 2-4k of cost (each time) on top of anything you might invest to keep the ICE running. If the Japanese have invented the magical engine that never needs a rebuild AND put a battery pack in there then of course there is no hybrid maintenance downside. It’s a little silly to go after the hybrids on that front (and I’ve done it before to be honest) as the buyers pay a premium new and used and aren’t really getting an economy car anymore. Non-economy cars have extra maintenance cost period.

The diesel VW’s do have engine’s that run forever (I own one). My landlord loves them for rebuild projects and I’ve been in some really really old examples as a result. The rest of the car…not so much. The new ones are fantastic though (I’ve only driven the DSG).

i. psarhjinian, the stepped manual override is absolutely essential to me. When the road is snowpacked, I rely on the tachometer to tell me if the wheels are slipping;. The CVT in a loaner Sentra scared the hell out of me because I could not tell if the wheels were slippmg, or the cvt was doing its smooth sweeping rpm increase on slick roads when accelerating.

2. Honda’s hybrid system to my mind is far more elegant that Toyota’s. The integrated electric motor does all the things Toyota’s three electric motors do.

3. When the price was rumored to start at $18,500 that was aruably the “affordable” price Honda promised. Honestly about $2000 above the base Fit would have been more like it. However $19,800? Crap! I was hoping they were going to make the Insight actually be the first economically advantageous hybrid in terms of it’s extra efficiency paying for itself at the pump.

The car is clearly disappointing on the price front.

My problem with the CVT is that I think it’s the worst transmission option on the market. I don’t care that it helps them get that 1 mpg they need for CAFE…cut the fat elsewhere, I won’t buy it. I make sure that no one shopping for cars around me buys one either (with a 100% success rate so far). I feel exactly the same way about low resistance tires, but at least I can change those.

I will grant that a new CVT is slightly better than a really old 4-speed auto. That is such faint praise that even I can barely read the words I’m typing.

If Honda had invested in an actually modern tc auto they’d have a far better unit than they do now, if they’d chosen DSG they’d have the best possible auto trans. They didn’t. They picked the transmission design that the aspirational brands rejected due to excessive crappiness (Audi’s the recent ex. I believe). I literally do not understand praise I find for the CVT’s…Edmunds likes them for instance. Maybe I’d sing a different tune if I drove one in a real luxury car application, something too big to have any positive dynamic expectations, but I doubt it.

CVT aside, as I’d never buy an auto anyway, my problem is that its the only choice. I don’t know how much it costs to develop a manual transmission, but I do know lots of people that simply will not buy anything else. Unfortunately for Toyota/Honda they are almost all they type of people who like the idea of hybrids, and who are used to paying a price premium for their Saabs, VWs and BMWs. The overpriced Prius would likely be on their radar with a stick, and they would even consider it a bargain.

The old Jetta TDI engine has provided many owners with 200,000 and 300,000 reasonably reliable miles of service. I expect that long before that Insight owners will have to spend an awful lot on replacement batteries.

—————————————-

Any hard data to back that up? Or is it your imagination only?

Toyota Prius was far more reliable than anything from VW (and yes Prius was introduced 10 years ago). The “battery replacement” argument, so far, is pure bullshxt.

Honda, as a brand, performs better than Toyota on Consumer Report. It’s not a far stretch to expect the Insight to last as long as the Prius.

For this reason, hybrids will be a niche product unless a permanent change in fuel prices occurs.

I agree, but there are other reasons for buying high mileage cars. Some are concerned with conservation and the environment and some (like me) want to help the USA achieve energy independence. That is the primary reason I bought the TDI>