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	<title>Comments on: Requiem for a Station Wagon</title>
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		<title>By: gibbleth</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-521771</link>
		<dc:creator>gibbleth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-521771</guid>
		<description>Hey, I drive a station wagon.  Seriously.  My 2002 Suburban is pretty much exactly the same profile as the Ford station wagon of my youth.  Maybe a little taller, but mostly just scaled up.  I really think the two-box just got bigger and heavier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hey, I drive a station wagon.  Seriously.  My 2002 Suburban is pretty much exactly the same profile as the Ford station wagon of my youth.  Maybe a little taller, but mostly just scaled up.  I really think the two-box just got bigger and heavier.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: RoweAS</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-206282</link>
		<dc:creator>RoweAS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-206282</guid>
		<description>I am new to this site and I love it. Just had to comment re: the station wagons. I love &#039;em and that was the driving force behind me buying an &#039;06 xB. Small wagon to be sure, but it is a wagon and I love it like no other car I have ever owned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I am new to this site and I love it. Just had to comment re: the station wagons. I love &#8216;em and that was the driving force behind me buying an &#8216;06 xB. Small wagon to be sure, but it is a wagon and I love it like no other car I have ever owned.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: skor</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92231</link>
		<dc:creator>skor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92231</guid>
		<description>My favorite wagon of all time was the Ford Ranchero.  A wagon with the roof cut off behind the front seat and a pick-up bed installed where the back seats would go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->My favorite wagon of all time was the Ford Ranchero.  A wagon with the roof cut off behind the front seat and a pick-up bed installed where the back seats would go.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: confused1096</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92212</link>
		<dc:creator>confused1096</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92212</guid>
		<description>Personally for a great utiltiy vehicle I love econobox wagons. I&#039;ve owned two: an &#039;85 Nissan Sentra wagon and a 1987 Ford Escort wagon. 
What&#039;s not to like? Great gas mileage, the ability to haul 4 people sorta comfortably or 5 people really uncomfortably, and plenty of cargo space if you fold down the rear seat. The roof rack mounted on either one of these fit a car topper easily for even more cargo room.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Personally for a great utiltiy vehicle I love econobox wagons. I&#8217;ve owned two: an &#8216;85 Nissan Sentra wagon and a 1987 Ford Escort wagon.<br />
What&#8217;s not to like? Great gas mileage, the ability to haul 4 people sorta comfortably or 5 people really uncomfortably, and plenty of cargo space if you fold down the rear seat. The roof rack mounted on either one of these fit a car topper easily for even more cargo room.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Geotpf</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92174</link>
		<dc:creator>Geotpf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92174</guid>
		<description>&quot;Virtual Insanity : 
December 10th, 2007 at 11:22 am 

How do you make a wagon cool? Call it a five door hatch. I have a wagon mafia sticker on the back of my Mazdaspeed3, and at all the Mazda meets I go to, people are like…its not a wagon, its a five door hatch.

A wagon as four doors and a hatch. My car has four doors and a hatch. Whats the difference? Marketing. Embrace the wagonhood, my fellow wagon owners! I don’t need a trailer for my track wheels at the end of a track day, I just toss them in the back!&quot;

IMHO, a hatchback is a wagon with a significantly smaller rear area.  For example, I own a Scion xA.  Without the rear seats folded down, the hatch area is rather small.  I wouldn&#039;t call it a wagon, but if it had a foot or three more space in the rear, it would be.  (I personally don&#039;t need the space and like having a small car for ease of parking and general &quot;dodgability&quot;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->&#8220;Virtual Insanity :<br />
December 10th, 2007 at 11:22 am </p>
<p>How do you make a wagon cool? Call it a five door hatch. I have a wagon mafia sticker on the back of my Mazdaspeed3, and at all the Mazda meets I go to, people are like…its not a wagon, its a five door hatch.</p>
<p>A wagon as four doors and a hatch. My car has four doors and a hatch. Whats the difference? Marketing. Embrace the wagonhood, my fellow wagon owners! I don’t need a trailer for my track wheels at the end of a track day, I just toss them in the back!&#8221;</p>
<p>IMHO, a hatchback is a wagon with a significantly smaller rear area.  For example, I own a Scion xA.  Without the rear seats folded down, the hatch area is rather small.  I wouldn&#8217;t call it a wagon, but if it had a foot or three more space in the rear, it would be.  (I personally don&#8217;t need the space and like having a small car for ease of parking and general &#8220;dodgability&#8221;.)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: eh_political</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92132</link>
		<dc:creator>eh_political</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92132</guid>
		<description>David Holzman,  coupdetat,

The Bradsher book is phenomenal.  Anyone wondering about the existence of SUVs needs to read about the profits generated by the Expedition alone in one plant.  It also goes a loong way towards explaining the Big Three shift into trucks.  Sadly it also underlines the types of short cuts many businesses will take to make money in the absence of government standards.  It was never about tires, it was about tires AND roof crush standards AND crash compatibility AND handling flaws AND high centre of gravity AND antique designs and components.

The most troubling question Bradsher poses is: what happens when the vehicles are dumped by the housewives that pilot them, and find their ways second and thirdhand to twenty year old males?  He argues that drivers with a more aggressive profile will be taking possession of these vehicles just as they are deteriorating.  

With respect to wagons, I think it is interesting to note that the Europeans generally spin off an estate variant of mainstream models, and I think sedan design benefits.  Shapes tend to be taughter, more coherent and wear longer than a majority of Asian and North American designs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->David Holzman,  coupdetat,</p>
<p>The Bradsher book is phenomenal.  Anyone wondering about the existence of SUVs needs to read about the profits generated by the Expedition alone in one plant.  It also goes a loong way towards explaining the Big Three shift into trucks.  Sadly it also underlines the types of short cuts many businesses will take to make money in the absence of government standards.  It was never about tires, it was about tires AND roof crush standards AND crash compatibility AND handling flaws AND high centre of gravity AND antique designs and components.</p>
<p>The most troubling question Bradsher poses is: what happens when the vehicles are dumped by the housewives that pilot them, and find their ways second and thirdhand to twenty year old males?  He argues that drivers with a more aggressive profile will be taking possession of these vehicles just as they are deteriorating.  </p>
<p>With respect to wagons, I think it is interesting to note that the Europeans generally spin off an estate variant of mainstream models, and I think sedan design benefits.  Shapes tend to be taughter, more coherent and wear longer than a majority of Asian and North American designs.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: gfen</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92105</link>
		<dc:creator>gfen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92105</guid>
		<description>My wife and I found out she was pregnant with twins. Her New Beetle wasn&#039;t going to cut it anymore, and we went car shopping.

I wanted a wagon, I really did. However, I faced two major hurdles: 
One, she didn&#039;t like the way wagons looked (with the exception of the Passat wagon), she &quot;wasn&#039;t ready&quot; for a wagon. Fair enough.
Two, the supposed benefits of wagons weren&#039;t nearly as great as I&#039;d have thought. The two wagons we could concentrate on, the Passat and the Outback, didn&#039;t really produce mileage that was much better than most CUVs (Patriot, RAV4, CRV, or Element).
In the end, she wanted a trucklet, and that&#039;s what we got.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->My wife and I found out she was pregnant with twins. Her New Beetle wasn&#8217;t going to cut it anymore, and we went car shopping.</p>
<p>I wanted a wagon, I really did. However, I faced two major hurdles:<br />
One, she didn&#8217;t like the way wagons looked (with the exception of the Passat wagon), she &#8220;wasn&#8217;t ready&#8221; for a wagon. Fair enough.<br />
Two, the supposed benefits of wagons weren&#8217;t nearly as great as I&#8217;d have thought. The two wagons we could concentrate on, the Passat and the Outback, didn&#8217;t really produce mileage that was much better than most CUVs (Patriot, RAV4, CRV, or Element).<br />
In the end, she wanted a trucklet, and that&#8217;s what we got.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Dynamic88</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92093</link>
		<dc:creator>Dynamic88</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92093</guid>
		<description>&quot;Dynamic88,

The author is absolutely incorrect. What killed the wagon was that “light trucks,” including minivans and SUVs had a much lower CAFE standard than cars. The car mfgs lobbied for that loophole, and it gave them all the incentive in the world to push minivans and SUVs at the expense of wagons. There were minivans and SUVs in the ’60s, the Microbus, the International Travelall, the KJeep Wagoneer, the Chevy Greenbriar and the Ford Econoline Van (advertised by the Peanuts characters, among others). (For the real story, see The High and the Mighty, by Keith Bradsher.)&quot;

Respectfully, I have to disagree.   Though I&#039;m against CAFE standards, I don&#039;t care to let my opposition cloud my view.   

It&#039;s true there were minivans and SUVs in the 1960s, but they really don&#039;t compare with what came in the &#039;80s.    The Microbus, Econoline, and Greenbrier of the early &#039;60s were truck-like, and forced the driver and front passenger to double as bumpers.   1960s mothers (and let&#039;s remember that wagons are primarily about mothers) didn&#039;t feel like climbing up into a trucky vehicle where they sat over the front wheels.   These were poor substitutes for the traditional wagon.  

The minivans that appeared in the 80s had the front wheels where people like them to be - out in front of the driver.   These vans also had enough of a hood to make people feel safe.   No longer than the traditional wagon -shorter in some cases- they had more room than traditional wagons.   Essentially the minivan was a tall station wagon, with transversely mounted engines and front wheel drive.    

The choice for a family hauler came down to the packaging efficiency of the minivan vs. the packaging inefficiency of the traditional station wagon.  Not suprisingly the minivan won.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->&#8220;Dynamic88,</p>
<p>The author is absolutely incorrect. What killed the wagon was that “light trucks,” including minivans and SUVs had a much lower CAFE standard than cars. The car mfgs lobbied for that loophole, and it gave them all the incentive in the world to push minivans and SUVs at the expense of wagons. There were minivans and SUVs in the ’60s, the Microbus, the International Travelall, the KJeep Wagoneer, the Chevy Greenbriar and the Ford Econoline Van (advertised by the Peanuts characters, among others). (For the real story, see The High and the Mighty, by Keith Bradsher.)&#8221;</p>
<p>Respectfully, I have to disagree.   Though I&#8217;m against CAFE standards, I don&#8217;t care to let my opposition cloud my view.   </p>
<p>It&#8217;s true there were minivans and SUVs in the 1960s, but they really don&#8217;t compare with what came in the &#8217;80s.    The Microbus, Econoline, and Greenbrier of the early &#8217;60s were truck-like, and forced the driver and front passenger to double as bumpers.   1960s mothers (and let&#8217;s remember that wagons are primarily about mothers) didn&#8217;t feel like climbing up into a trucky vehicle where they sat over the front wheels.   These were poor substitutes for the traditional wagon.  </p>
<p>The minivans that appeared in the 80s had the front wheels where people like them to be &#8211; out in front of the driver.   These vans also had enough of a hood to make people feel safe.   No longer than the traditional wagon -shorter in some cases- they had more room than traditional wagons.   Essentially the minivan was a tall station wagon, with transversely mounted engines and front wheel drive.    </p>
<p>The choice for a family hauler came down to the packaging efficiency of the minivan vs. the packaging inefficiency of the traditional station wagon.  Not suprisingly the minivan won.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: jurisb</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92055</link>
		<dc:creator>jurisb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92055</guid>
		<description>I am not dead yet, as they would say in monty python`s search for the Holy Grail. station wagon is not dead. it is that  american brand station wagon is dead. why? because detroit metalists avoid anything that deals with tangible engineering and physical input. that`s why you have subarus and hondas station wagons, bot no tauruses or malibuses. big 3 deal good with papers and promises and global bins, when it deals with building  real body types, gearboxes, etc, that`s where the problem starts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I am not dead yet, as they would say in monty python`s search for the Holy Grail. station wagon is not dead. it is that  american brand station wagon is dead. why? because detroit metalists avoid anything that deals with tangible engineering and physical input. that`s why you have subarus and hondas station wagons, bot no tauruses or malibuses. big 3 deal good with papers and promises and global bins, when it deals with building  real body types, gearboxes, etc, that`s where the problem starts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Pch101</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92054</link>
		<dc:creator>Pch101</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 07:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92054</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;What killed the wagon was that “light trucks,” including minivans and SUVs had a much lower CAFE standard than cars. The car mfgs lobbied for that loophole, and it gave them all the incentive in the world to push minivans and SUVs at the expense of wagons.&lt;/em&gt;

That may be true in respect to the motivation of the automakers to bring them to market.  But ultimately, it is the consumer who decides whether or not to buy the product, a decision that has nothing to do with CAFE.

I&#039;ll offer a bit of an off-the-cuff theory.  During the early 80&#039;s, we began to see the growing population of cheap compact pickup trucks such as those from Toyota and Nissan.  These trucks were cheaper than cars because their safety and emissions requirements were lower and therefore cheaper with which to comply.  Their low price made them popular with young people who wanted basic transportation, and they carried a bit more cool factor than did the subcompact cars that were their most direct price competitors.

As a result, you ended up with a large population of younger people driving trucks who in past years would have been driving cars.  As these younger drivers became accustomed to trucks for both their virtues (ride height, carrying capacity, durability) and their drawbacks (sloppy handling, poor fuel economy, boxy styling), they evolved into becoming logical buyers of SUV&#039;s and minivans as they aged and became more affluent.  

For this group, transitioning into SUV&#039;s was an easy step.  Along the way, trucks lost their stigma as being redneck transporation, so that class barrier was breached.  While the automakers had motivations to run with this ball, they would alone not have had the power to persuade buyers to buy them just because it served the automakers to do so.

If gas hits $4+ per gallon, I think you&#039;ll see more wagons.  If fuel is expensive, it will motivate changes in behavior, and I doubt that it will be getting much cheaper any time soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><em>What killed the wagon was that “light trucks,” including minivans and SUVs had a much lower CAFE standard than cars. The car mfgs lobbied for that loophole, and it gave them all the incentive in the world to push minivans and SUVs at the expense of wagons.</em></p>
<p>That may be true in respect to the motivation of the automakers to bring them to market.  But ultimately, it is the consumer who decides whether or not to buy the product, a decision that has nothing to do with CAFE.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll offer a bit of an off-the-cuff theory.  During the early 80&#8217;s, we began to see the growing population of cheap compact pickup trucks such as those from Toyota and Nissan.  These trucks were cheaper than cars because their safety and emissions requirements were lower and therefore cheaper with which to comply.  Their low price made them popular with young people who wanted basic transportation, and they carried a bit more cool factor than did the subcompact cars that were their most direct price competitors.</p>
<p>As a result, you ended up with a large population of younger people driving trucks who in past years would have been driving cars.  As these younger drivers became accustomed to trucks for both their virtues (ride height, carrying capacity, durability) and their drawbacks (sloppy handling, poor fuel economy, boxy styling), they evolved into becoming logical buyers of SUV&#8217;s and minivans as they aged and became more affluent.  </p>
<p>For this group, transitioning into SUV&#8217;s was an easy step.  Along the way, trucks lost their stigma as being redneck transporation, so that class barrier was breached.  While the automakers had motivations to run with this ball, they would alone not have had the power to persuade buyers to buy them just because it served the automakers to do so.</p>
<p>If gas hits $4+ per gallon, I think you&#8217;ll see more wagons.  If fuel is expensive, it will motivate changes in behavior, and I doubt that it will be getting much cheaper any time soon.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Johnster</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92049</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 05:31:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92049</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Martin Albright: Johnster: Yes, it’s been posted a few times. Of course, it proves nothing. If 3/4 of the vehicles on the road at any given time during a snowstorm (the Saturday night storm was indeed a nasty one) then a random distribution would mean that 3/4 of the wrecks should also be SUVs, right?&lt;/em&gt;

It seems to be more than random distribution that only the SUVs are either on their sides or upside down and that the only car is still rightside up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><em>Martin Albright: Johnster: Yes, it’s been posted a few times. Of course, it proves nothing. If 3/4 of the vehicles on the road at any given time during a snowstorm (the Saturday night storm was indeed a nasty one) then a random distribution would mean that 3/4 of the wrecks should also be SUVs, right?</em></p>
<p>It seems to be more than random distribution that only the SUVs are either on their sides or upside down and that the only car is still rightside up.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: coupdetat</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92047</link>
		<dc:creator>coupdetat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92047</guid>
		<description>Anyone else here in the northeast?  Seems like station wagons are still alive and kicking here.  Subaru and Volvo do particularly well, and hatchbacks are everywhere.  Even among my generation (I&#039;m a college student), a lot of my friends like station wagons.

By the way, I&#039;d also recommend reading High the Mighty.  It&#039;s a really terrific book on the history of the SUV, I had trouble putting it down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Anyone else here in the northeast?  Seems like station wagons are still alive and kicking here.  Subaru and Volvo do particularly well, and hatchbacks are everywhere.  Even among my generation (I&#8217;m a college student), a lot of my friends like station wagons.</p>
<p>By the way, I&#8217;d also recommend reading High the Mighty.  It&#8217;s a really terrific book on the history of the SUV, I had trouble putting it down.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: David Holzman</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92040</link>
		<dc:creator>David Holzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 02:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92040</guid>
		<description>baabthesaab, 

I certainly didn&#039;t mean to imply that minivans don&#039;t have a place in the world. As a child, I found the Microbus--then the quintessential minivan--to be a very compelling concept, and I still do. I can imagine owning one if I had a wife and kids, and unlike many people, I&#039;m not at all put off by its image as a family hauler--although I&#039;d prefer one that handled like a car. But if it hadn&#039;t been for CAFE loopholes, there would have been a lot more wagons, and more compelling wagons, fewer minivans, and probably even fewer SUVs. 

Love the way you describe your problems with driving the Microbus. And I can tell you that later on--my mother had a &#039;97 Caravan--they were quite zippy with the 6.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->baabthesaab, </p>
<p>I certainly didn&#8217;t mean to imply that minivans don&#8217;t have a place in the world. As a child, I found the Microbus&#8211;then the quintessential minivan&#8211;to be a very compelling concept, and I still do. I can imagine owning one if I had a wife and kids, and unlike many people, I&#8217;m not at all put off by its image as a family hauler&#8211;although I&#8217;d prefer one that handled like a car. But if it hadn&#8217;t been for CAFE loopholes, there would have been a lot more wagons, and more compelling wagons, fewer minivans, and probably even fewer SUVs. </p>
<p>Love the way you describe your problems with driving the Microbus. And I can tell you that later on&#8211;my mother had a &#8216;97 Caravan&#8211;they were quite zippy with the 6.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: baabthesaab</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-2/#comment-92027</link>
		<dc:creator>baabthesaab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92027</guid>
		<description>Easy, David Holzman, easy.
 While I believe you are completely correct as to the DEVELOPMENT of the trend, Mr. Dederer deserves more credit. Growing up, I always liked light trucks and station wagons. I loved those Jeeps, Travelalls, and Microbuses you cite (you forgot the Checker Marathon wagon - alright, I didn&#039;t love those). In 1985, when my wife and I were expecting a child, and our 1981 Subaru wagon was spectacularly unreliable, we were very excited by the Dodge Caravan for all the reasons cited in the article - space efficiency, handling (?), and the chance to be different to Mom and Dad. There were lots of conventional wagons on the market - all cushy, spongy, wallowing, automatic transmissioned, cars-my-parents-drove,
With the advent of Chrysler&#039;s minivan, we felt that, at last, someone had improved the VW bus. The VW had been a favorite all along, but I never fancied using my knees as the front bumper, or cruising the highway in a full-lock turn. Believe it or not, relative to the V-dub, the Dodge felt fast, - well, adequate.
Alas, as time went on, you pretty much have the story, but our initial experience was just as Andrew said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Easy, David Holzman, easy.<br />
 While I believe you are completely correct as to the DEVELOPMENT of the trend, Mr. Dederer deserves more credit. Growing up, I always liked light trucks and station wagons. I loved those Jeeps, Travelalls, and Microbuses you cite (you forgot the Checker Marathon wagon &#8211; alright, I didn&#8217;t love those). In 1985, when my wife and I were expecting a child, and our 1981 Subaru wagon was spectacularly unreliable, we were very excited by the Dodge Caravan for all the reasons cited in the article &#8211; space efficiency, handling (?), and the chance to be different to Mom and Dad. There were lots of conventional wagons on the market &#8211; all cushy, spongy, wallowing, automatic transmissioned, cars-my-parents-drove,<br />
With the advent of Chrysler&#8217;s minivan, we felt that, at last, someone had improved the VW bus. The VW had been a favorite all along, but I never fancied using my knees as the front bumper, or cruising the highway in a full-lock turn. Believe it or not, relative to the V-dub, the Dodge felt fast, &#8211; well, adequate.<br />
Alas, as time went on, you pretty much have the story, but our initial experience was just as Andrew said.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: David Holzman</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-92014</link>
		<dc:creator>David Holzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-92014</guid>
		<description>Dynamic88, 

The author is absolutely incorrect. What killed the wagon was that &quot;light trucks,&quot; including minivans and SUVs had a much lower CAFE standard than cars. The car mfgs lobbied for that loophole, and it gave them all the incentive in the world to push minivans and SUVs at the expense of wagons. There were minivans and SUVs in the &#039;60s, the Microbus, the International Travelall, the KJeep Wagoneer, the Chevy Greenbriar and the Ford Econoline Van (advertised by the Peanuts characters, among others). (For the real story, see The High and the Mighty, by Keith Bradsher.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Dynamic88, </p>
<p>The author is absolutely incorrect. What killed the wagon was that &#8220;light trucks,&#8221; including minivans and SUVs had a much lower CAFE standard than cars. The car mfgs lobbied for that loophole, and it gave them all the incentive in the world to push minivans and SUVs at the expense of wagons. There were minivans and SUVs in the &#8217;60s, the Microbus, the International Travelall, the KJeep Wagoneer, the Chevy Greenbriar and the Ford Econoline Van (advertised by the Peanuts characters, among others). (For the real story, see The High and the Mighty, by Keith Bradsher.)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Dynamic88</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91995</link>
		<dc:creator>Dynamic88</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91995</guid>
		<description>Vista Cruisers, Country Squires, Ranch Wagons, even an Estate Wagon - how well I remember gowing up in the &#039;60s.    

I graduated from riding in the &quot;way back&quot; to the rear seat, to the navigator&#039;s seat, and finally to the pilot seat.   I&#039;ve logged many a mile in the traditional family wagon.   

The author is absoutely correct - the vastly superior packaging efficiency of a minivan is what killed the full sized wagon.   Assuming one doesn&#039;t want to block the view through the rear window, a full size wagon really doens&#039;t have any more room than a sedan it just has a roof over the trunk, instead of a lid - so everyone can see what you&#039;ve got in there.   

I do like a compact wagon though.   A minivan isn&#039;t an alternative to a compact wagon because a compact buyer, presumably, doesn&#039;t want a large vehicle.   

We had an &#039;87 Civic wagon.   I really wish Honda still made a civic wagon.    Ours didn&#039;t have AWD, but it was available.   The best of all possible worlds - small, yet roomy, and available AWD, and good fuel economy.   

My wife&#039;s CR-V certainly is a station wagon.   Granted it sits higher than any of Mom&#039;s old Vista Cruisers, and it&#039;s got AWD, but still it&#039;s a wagon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Vista Cruisers, Country Squires, Ranch Wagons, even an Estate Wagon &#8211; how well I remember gowing up in the &#8217;60s.    </p>
<p>I graduated from riding in the &#8220;way back&#8221; to the rear seat, to the navigator&#8217;s seat, and finally to the pilot seat.   I&#8217;ve logged many a mile in the traditional family wagon.   </p>
<p>The author is absoutely correct &#8211; the vastly superior packaging efficiency of a minivan is what killed the full sized wagon.   Assuming one doesn&#8217;t want to block the view through the rear window, a full size wagon really doens&#8217;t have any more room than a sedan it just has a roof over the trunk, instead of a lid &#8211; so everyone can see what you&#8217;ve got in there.   </p>
<p>I do like a compact wagon though.   A minivan isn&#8217;t an alternative to a compact wagon because a compact buyer, presumably, doesn&#8217;t want a large vehicle.   </p>
<p>We had an &#8216;87 Civic wagon.   I really wish Honda still made a civic wagon.    Ours didn&#8217;t have AWD, but it was available.   The best of all possible worlds &#8211; small, yet roomy, and available AWD, and good fuel economy.   </p>
<p>My wife&#8217;s CR-V certainly is a station wagon.   Granted it sits higher than any of Mom&#8217;s old Vista Cruisers, and it&#8217;s got AWD, but still it&#8217;s a wagon.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Martin Albright</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91989</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Albright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91989</guid>
		<description>Johnster:  Yes, it&#039;s been posted a few times.  Of course, it proves nothing.  If 3/4 of the vehicles on the road at any given time during a snowstorm (the Saturday night storm was indeed a nasty one) then a random distribution would mean that 3/4 of the wrecks should &lt;strong&gt;also &lt;/strong&gt;be SUVs, right?  The cluster of wrecks at that site indicates particularly treacherous ice conditions that would have been dangerous for any vehicle, 4wd or not.  And of course, 4wd is not of much assistance to those who don&#039;t know how to use it.  

What that picture &lt;em&gt;doesn&#039;t &lt;/em&gt;show are the people who looked outside at the weather and stayed home because they knew their FWD cars with all-season tires wouldn&#039;t make it.  I had a party to go to across town and had no trouble getting around in my 4wd pickup.  The Subaru would also have been fine but if I&#039;d had a FWD car I think I would have phoned my regrets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Johnster:  Yes, it&#8217;s been posted a few times.  Of course, it proves nothing.  If 3/4 of the vehicles on the road at any given time during a snowstorm (the Saturday night storm was indeed a nasty one) then a random distribution would mean that 3/4 of the wrecks should <strong>also </strong>be SUVs, right?  The cluster of wrecks at that site indicates particularly treacherous ice conditions that would have been dangerous for any vehicle, 4wd or not.  And of course, 4wd is not of much assistance to those who don&#8217;t know how to use it.  </p>
<p>What that picture <em>doesn&#8217;t </em>show are the people who looked outside at the weather and stayed home because they knew their FWD cars with all-season tires wouldn&#8217;t make it.  I had a party to go to across town and had no trouble getting around in my 4wd pickup.  The Subaru would also have been fine but if I&#8217;d had a FWD car I think I would have phoned my regrets.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: spj911</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91988</link>
		<dc:creator>spj911</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91988</guid>
		<description>The wife and I have two kids and two wagons. Nothing else really meets our needs. Minivans are just too boring. Minivans are where station wagons were in the 70&#039;s &amp; 80s.  NO ONE wanted to drive a station wagon then because that&#039;s what parents with more that 2 kids drove.  Too blah and boring.... like your parents. Now minivans are suffering the same fate. So don&#039;t just write about it, go take a spin in one or two of the (formerly) Swedish wagons or one of the multiple offering from the Germans. So what if they can&#039;t make a US wagon... Just like bellbottoms and wide ties, they making their return anyway in the US.  They are not the lumbering precursors to minivans that your parent&#039;s parents use to drive on family vacations.  Where else can you get 30+mph HWY, 6 sec dashes 0-60 (no M-5 Wagon in the states yet...) and still haul a huge load back from the Home Depot (well, not all at the same time). Not to mention swell handling (yeah, that word is coming back too!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->The wife and I have two kids and two wagons. Nothing else really meets our needs. Minivans are just too boring. Minivans are where station wagons were in the 70&#8217;s &amp; 80s.  NO ONE wanted to drive a station wagon then because that&#8217;s what parents with more that 2 kids drove.  Too blah and boring&#8230;. like your parents. Now minivans are suffering the same fate. So don&#8217;t just write about it, go take a spin in one or two of the (formerly) Swedish wagons or one of the multiple offering from the Germans. So what if they can&#8217;t make a US wagon&#8230; Just like bellbottoms and wide ties, they making their return anyway in the US.  They are not the lumbering precursors to minivans that your parent&#8217;s parents use to drive on family vacations.  Where else can you get 30+mph HWY, 6 sec dashes 0-60 (no M-5 Wagon in the states yet&#8230;) and still haul a huge load back from the Home Depot (well, not all at the same time). Not to mention swell handling (yeah, that word is coming back too!)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Unbalanced</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91985</link>
		<dc:creator>Unbalanced</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91985</guid>
		<description>We were pioneers of sorts in the station wagon to SUV exodus, having traded in our Mercury Sable wagon for a Nissan Pathfinder some fifteen years ago. The reason was simple: style trumps substance.

With two young sons, the Sable&#039;s way back seat was regularly in use for the then frequent two moms and four kids outings. The Pathfinder&#039;s seating for five meant no such luck. The Sable had tons of storage capacity, a smooth quiet ride, and got better than decent gas mileage. The Pathfinder not so much, not so much and not so much.

But the Sable apparently screamed &quot;Mommy-car&quot; (although I couldn&#039;t hear it), and the Pathfinder had that just about to mountain bike to some white water rafting look, and that was that.

Some 100,000 fashionable if uncomfortable miles later, we journeyed back, and traded the Pathfinder for a BMW 525it wagon. Still no third row (with our sons by then teenagers those two moms and four kids ventures were no longer an issue), but you could pull of a major Costco run or throw in a bike without too much trouble. It&#039;s by far the best car we&#039;ve ever owned. With 90K miles on the clock, the BMW has done years of double duty as a modestly capable hauler and as a ...well, BMW. 

Having said all of that, it&#039;s still not surprising to me that the &quot;sport&quot; wagon niche is a narrow one. Although our wagon has been more practical than a sedan, it&#039;s still way less useful than any of a number of CUV&#039;s available today. Most have the critic-derided but extra kid friendly third rows, get semi tolerable mileage, and can stow massive amounts of gear. We&#039;ve sheared a couple of front spoilers off the BMW on dirt roads and in the snow, had to deal with chains in the absence of 4WD, and generally had to apply advanced geometric thinking to packing for long trips. And gas mileage probably hasn&#039;t been any better than in something like an MDX or Acacia.

But I just drove back from the mountains yesterday in the BMW, and the experience highlighted why the trade-offs have been more than worth it. We may not have had as much stuff with us when we got there, but the driver at least had a hell of a good time along the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->We were pioneers of sorts in the station wagon to SUV exodus, having traded in our Mercury Sable wagon for a Nissan Pathfinder some fifteen years ago. The reason was simple: style trumps substance.</p>
<p>With two young sons, the Sable&#8217;s way back seat was regularly in use for the then frequent two moms and four kids outings. The Pathfinder&#8217;s seating for five meant no such luck. The Sable had tons of storage capacity, a smooth quiet ride, and got better than decent gas mileage. The Pathfinder not so much, not so much and not so much.</p>
<p>But the Sable apparently screamed &#8220;Mommy-car&#8221; (although I couldn&#8217;t hear it), and the Pathfinder had that just about to mountain bike to some white water rafting look, and that was that.</p>
<p>Some 100,000 fashionable if uncomfortable miles later, we journeyed back, and traded the Pathfinder for a BMW 525it wagon. Still no third row (with our sons by then teenagers those two moms and four kids ventures were no longer an issue), but you could pull of a major Costco run or throw in a bike without too much trouble. It&#8217;s by far the best car we&#8217;ve ever owned. With 90K miles on the clock, the BMW has done years of double duty as a modestly capable hauler and as a &#8230;well, BMW. </p>
<p>Having said all of that, it&#8217;s still not surprising to me that the &#8220;sport&#8221; wagon niche is a narrow one. Although our wagon has been more practical than a sedan, it&#8217;s still way less useful than any of a number of CUV&#8217;s available today. Most have the critic-derided but extra kid friendly third rows, get semi tolerable mileage, and can stow massive amounts of gear. We&#8217;ve sheared a couple of front spoilers off the BMW on dirt roads and in the snow, had to deal with chains in the absence of 4WD, and generally had to apply advanced geometric thinking to packing for long trips. And gas mileage probably hasn&#8217;t been any better than in something like an MDX or Acacia.</p>
<p>But I just drove back from the mountains yesterday in the BMW, and the experience highlighted why the trade-offs have been more than worth it. We may not have had as much stuff with us when we got there, but the driver at least had a hell of a good time along the way.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: David Holzman</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91975</link>
		<dc:creator>David Holzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91975</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Let’s not forget that Subaru managed to get the Outback Wagon classified as a truck.&lt;/em&gt;

starlightmica, 
I certainly wasn&#039;t forgetting that. It&#039;s still a wagon as far as I&#039;m concerned. But that classification, and what they did to get it, is more evidence of how much different CAFE standards for cars and light trucks warps the market. Thanks for bringing that up.

Johnster, 
great photo of the fate of SUVs in winter!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><em>Let’s not forget that Subaru managed to get the Outback Wagon classified as a truck.</em></p>
<p>starlightmica,<br />
I certainly wasn&#8217;t forgetting that. It&#8217;s still a wagon as far as I&#8217;m concerned. But that classification, and what they did to get it, is more evidence of how much different CAFE standards for cars and light trucks warps the market. Thanks for bringing that up.</p>
<p>Johnster,<br />
great photo of the fate of SUVs in winter!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: KixStart</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91967</link>
		<dc:creator>KixStart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91967</guid>
		<description>The rise of the term &quot;econobox,&quot; with its derisive overtones, parallels the rise of the Japanese and the decline of Detroit.

A &quot;hopped up econobox&quot; is just the most recent incarnation of the musclecar.  A Nova with a 472 Cadillac engine was still a Nova.  Well, a Nova with a weight distribution problem, I suppose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->The rise of the term &#8220;econobox,&#8221; with its derisive overtones, parallels the rise of the Japanese and the decline of Detroit.</p>
<p>A &#8220;hopped up econobox&#8221; is just the most recent incarnation of the musclecar.  A Nova with a 472 Cadillac engine was still a Nova.  Well, a Nova with a weight distribution problem, I suppose.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: dklinux</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91965</link>
		<dc:creator>dklinux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91965</guid>
		<description>I own a 98 Ford Escort Wagon.  It is going to need to be replaced soon.  Ford no longer makes Station Wagons.  My top replacement choice is the new 2009/10 VW Jetta Sportswagon with a Diesel engine. I WON&#039;T GO BACK TO A TRUNK!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I own a 98 Ford Escort Wagon.  It is going to need to be replaced soon.  Ford no longer makes Station Wagons.  My top replacement choice is the new 2009/10 VW Jetta Sportswagon with a Diesel engine. I WON&#8217;T GO BACK TO A TRUNK!<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: timoted</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91962</link>
		<dc:creator>timoted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91962</guid>
		<description>&quot;Hopped up econo box&quot; is a contradiction in terms. You can put an annoying grapefruit shooter exhaust and an obnoxious tail on any econo box and it&#039;s still an econo box. You did call the mazda right, it is an econo box not a stationwagon. I don&#039;t think anyone&#039;s ever called a Magnum or a Chevelle stationwagon or any other &quot;traaditional&quot; stationwagon an econo box regardless of their age. We all drive what we can reasonably afford.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->&#8220;Hopped up econo box&#8221; is a contradiction in terms. You can put an annoying grapefruit shooter exhaust and an obnoxious tail on any econo box and it&#8217;s still an econo box. You did call the mazda right, it is an econo box not a stationwagon. I don&#8217;t think anyone&#8217;s ever called a Magnum or a Chevelle stationwagon or any other &#8220;traaditional&#8221; stationwagon an econo box regardless of their age. We all drive what we can reasonably afford.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Virtual Insanity</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91958</link>
		<dc:creator>Virtual Insanity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91958</guid>
		<description>Not really bitterness, more cynicism than anything.  And I had my choice between the Speed3 and Speed6.  I chose the Speed3, which you had to actually spring for.  Most dealerships, in my area especially, are giving away Speed6s.  They can&#039;t keep the Speed3s on the lot.  

Hmmm, be a 23 year old ricer in a hopped hop econo box, or a 23 year old driving a mid life crisis mobile for the masses.  Meh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Not really bitterness, more cynicism than anything.  And I had my choice between the Speed3 and Speed6.  I chose the Speed3, which you had to actually spring for.  Most dealerships, in my area especially, are giving away Speed6s.  They can&#8217;t keep the Speed3s on the lot.  </p>
<p>Hmmm, be a 23 year old ricer in a hopped hop econo box, or a 23 year old driving a mid life crisis mobile for the masses.  Meh.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: timoted</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/comment-page-1/#comment-91956</link>
		<dc:creator>timoted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/requiem-for-a-station-wagon/#comment-91956</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry Virtual Insanity, it must be hard living with all that bitterness. Maybe you&#039;d be less bitter if you woulda sprung for the mazdaspeed6 with the 270 hp engine and upgraded stereo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I&#8217;m sorry Virtual Insanity, it must be hard living with all that bitterness. Maybe you&#8217;d be less bitter if you woulda sprung for the mazdaspeed6 with the 270 hp engine and upgraded stereo.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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