Gas is more expensive than ever and because everything else costs two arms and/or legs, much more painful to purchase. Many consumers are switching to fuel-sippers or looking for something completely different (EV and Hydrogen, not hooning sheiks). Regardless, cars are more powerful than ever. Even cars that aren't here yet are going to be more powerful than ever. Examples? The new 911 Turbo is up 20 hp. The M5 is growing in displacement and probably leaping in power. MB's upcoming Gullwing will be in the 750 horse ballpark. Audi's S4 will be dropping two cylinders, but gaining 10 hp and gobs of torque. And that's just the Germans. The 2009 Maxima is up to 290 horses. The 2010 Mustang, despite losing its big-block 6.2-liter Boss V8, should grow to 5.0-liters and make much more than 300 horses. Then there's that Camaro SS which very well might have over 500 horsepower, the 550 hp CTS-V and the 638 pony ZR1. These are just off the top of my OCD head. Is "more POWA!" the future, or has the entire industry been caught without pants and excuses?
91 Comments on “Question of the Day: Should the Horsepower Wars End?...”
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This is America. Free country (supposedly), free people (supposedly). Let the market decide. For good or ill, let the horses run free.
Once again, isn’t this for the marketplace to decide?
If no one buys these vehicles, then the horsepower wars will end. If people buy them, then they will not.
Seems pretty cut and dried.
The market didn’t decide we should have air bags, tire pressure monitors, etc.
John
I would rather see them start cutting weight and focus less on the “powa”.
Well, an increase in power doesn’t always mesh 1-to-1 with a decrease in efficiency, dependent on refinements in the power train in general.
In the vast majority of cases I’m sure there’s an inverse relationship, even if it’s not at exactly 1:1.
personally, i’d love to have a brandy-new Super Bee…but I couldn’t afford it *or* the gas. I am sure there are probably enough buyers for these “smallish run” expensive high HP cars.
If not…they’ll sit next to the SUVs, and then maybe the manufacturers will reconsider.
Mercedes Catches Fire After Electrical Malfunction
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HP should be capped. Acceleration and handling, never.
The Horsepower war has only lead to more expensive cars for ALL folks NOT just those that drive fast.
Bigger engines, bigger brakes, bigger wheels, more expensive tires, heftier transmissions, etc.
The joke is that most of todays cars can NOT handle the power. Please drive a v6 Camry, Accord, or Altima and tell me that the power can actually be put to good use.
The HP war is also why most cars have a hard time getting over 30mpg.
The HP war has allowed the manufacturers to pretend that they are actually giving us something more while the cars get faster but everything we touch and feel is cheaper! Please caress the interior of a 1993 MB 300e and than feel up a 2007, very big difference!
High HP is cheap to produce, easy to sell, yet is of very little use to the buyer! Driving a 500hp car is like trying to defend yourself in a street fight with a Barrett .50 rifle, you will never find the room to really use it effectively!
Agree with Nathaniel – cut the weight.
I love horsepower, but a good car doesn’t need tons of ponies to be fast. I fall into the catagory that consider a Corolla too big, though.. I need 2 seats, a shifter, and a trunk of some sort.
My biggest issue with these fat cars – a Yaris can seat 5. Albeit not very comfortably, but still possible. A Maxima seats 5, and costs, quite literally, twice the price. Practically every car in between seats 5. So we get bigger cars with more room, horrible gas, and HP ratings that make 10-year-old sports cars look slow, yet they serve the same purpose as the cars that are half the weight, expense, and 2x the gas mileage.
Americans need to face the reality – big cars AREN’T for racing. Family sedans and pickup trucks have their purposes, and mixing those purposes with high displacement/hp is pointless.
Besides, when did HP matter in a pickup?? 500 at 4,500RPM never pulls weight, it’s the torque. But this goes back to the whole Diesel debate… or, the whole truck debate to begin with (here in TX, house wives LOVE the big trucks w/ crew cabs.. why get a comfortable car for your 2 kids when you can buy a HUGE truck that will never see a hitch or mud pit?)
I agree with others in that it will be a market-driven decision. Unless the Dems mandate it, which wouldn’t surprise me.
No.
There will always be people who want and are willing to pay for the thrills and excitement these types of cars provide from the upcoming Camaro to the ultra-powerful Mercedes AMG cars.
The market majority of the market is already made up of horribly bland, horrible driving, horrible looking appliance cars for those of you who like that sort of thing or don’t care.
I’d say yes, but through insurance and tax incentives for low-power cars, not an outright ban.
We’re putting stupidly powerful cars in the hands of people because we can, and the whole thrust of marketing departments has been bigger-better-more-faster.
A more aggressive deterrent might have helped spur development of more efficient cars over the past few decades, rather than cars that tow the line on economy but increased in power (and this increase in power allowed the subsequent increase in mass).
Seriously, who needs a sub-six-second Toyota Camry that’s just slightly shorted than a Town car?
Free market and all that (i.e. mob mentality rule), but it’s gotten silly. After 300hp it’s more about bragging rights than usefulness, and I certainly won’t be applying my dollars towards that mentality.
A lot of it is driven by the supply side of things. No one cared about 250hp midsized sedans until Nissan and its marketers came up with the idea. Everyone else started building them that way because they know it’s important to impress the car magazines, that’s all. It wasn’t because there was a pent up demand for them.
The unofficial 280hp limit in Japan’s recent past led to some great and fun cars, in which shortcuts couldn’t be covered up by turning up the power. That worked out just fine, even if there was always a little bit of cheating going on. I don’t see what there is to fear.
The market didn’t decide we should have air bags, tire pressure monitors, etc.
John
So having a car with more horsepower is a SAFETY issue? Hmmmm. Interesting take. Or maybe the SAFETY of OUR COUNTRY is at stake due to energy issues? Would taking high horsepower vehicles off the road solve our energy issues?
NOPE. On both counts.
I’m a Canadian so practically a god damn socialist, but I say let free market do its thing here. It does irritate me somewhat to see what used to be a line of japanese econo-boxes getting more and more ponies pumped through its front wheels (ugh), but I just don’t buy them.
Perhaps in the near future the new penis substitute will be mpg instead of horsepower.. Unlikely.
Absolutely not. No attempt to improve any aspect of the automotive experience should be held back.
These high HP cars are a testing ground for new technology financed by those who pay premiums for the latest and greatest.
We benefit when these technologies trickle down into our every day cars.
The thing that gets to me the most – and it’s out of the manufacturers’ hands – is that buyers honestly sit back and say “Car A has 10 more HP than Car B & costs $500 less, so even though Car B is of higher quality, gets better gas mileage, and is more comfortable, Car A wins for being (1-month’s payments) cheaper & (an unnoticeablly) 10 HP “faster.”
What is worse – I know people who buy the I4 version of said sedans thinking that it was a V6!! It says 2.5, and the car beside it has a 1.8, so the bigger one must be a V6, right?
These fools can’t tell the difference between 170HP and 250HP, yet worry over which car has MORE power. While, at the same time, will NEVER redline the I4!
I swear, if it were legal, Manufacturers could throw 5.0L V8 specs on an I4 engine, gas mileage specs of the I4, a throaty exhaust, and somewhere around 50% of the buyers whouldn’t have a clue (as long as the plastic engine cover said V8 and had 8 fake ports displayed).
HP wars come and go – the last one was killed by gas prices and this one will be too. No need to to the government involved. It didn’t work in Japan and it sure won’t work here.
HP wars should be replaced by the Weight to power ratio. I’ll take a car that is 1000 pounds with 150hp please :)
But perhaps this question is more about whether the horsepower wars among the horribly bland, horrible driving appliance cars should end. If that’s the case, then yes, I agree with several other commenters here: we don’t need a more powerful Camry.
Assuming gas prices continue to climb, I think the horsepower wars have ended for the bulk of the market. This year’s releases were developed over the past year or two, so there is some lag in the process. And yes, there will always be a small market for higher performance cars. But for more family oriented vehicles, manufacturers will be tooting their MPG figures more than HP.
That said, it’s going to take a lot more to to see reductions in horsepower in the market. People don’t like giving up specs unless they’re getting a lot in return.
It’s not a market driven issue when soldiers have to die in order for you to have your “fix”.
If you think it’s your god-given right to waste natural resources, suggest you attend a military funeral and then say “WTF, it’s worth it.”
for the most part, those that are against the horsepower wars have made their decision based on fuel economy. here’s the thing, though–horsepower has almost nothing to do with your fuel economy.
all horsepower is is the ability to burn a bunch of fuel. it doesn’t mean it HAS to do it; it just means it CAN do it. keep your foot off the accelerator and you’ll do just fine. variable valve timing has given us engines that are clean and efficient in the mid range and can breathe well at high RPM (where your big horsepower number comes from).
as for horsepower wars resulting in “Bigger engines, bigger brakes, bigger wheels, more expensive tires, heftier transmissions, etc.” that’s putting the cart before the horse in a way. safety regulations have given us lead ballons for cars, and it takes a billion horsepower to move them and bigger brakes to stop them.
in addition, it’s the weight from the safety regulations that is destroying fuel economy, not horsepower. how many times have we seen cars that offer I4s with highway mileage of 31mpg and the same car with a V6 gets 29mpg? keep in mind that there’s usually a big weight penalty with the V6, so the real difference is likely 31mpg vs. 30mpg and 160hp vs 260hp. just a little extra friction from two cylinders is all that is–nothing to do with horsepower.
i will be so sad if the greenies misguidedly legislate away my horsepower in the name of gasoline while simultaneously legislating in leaden safety features that kill our gas mileage.
leave the horsepower alone!
My ‘84 Rabbit had 90HP and weighed around 2000 lbs. It was a convertible. My current VW Cabrio weighs nearly 3000 lbs (2800) and gained 25 HP.
How about giving me the 2K lb car with 115 HP again that gets 40+ mpg without the hybrid extras?
The horsepower race was over even before the recent run-up in gas prices. It’s just that, given industry lead times, we are still seeing new vehicles designed to “up the ante” in that area. Any legislative reaction is a waste of time and resources.
Consider: a V6 RAV4 with 261 HP and 19/26, or a I4 CRV with 166 HP and 20/26. HP matters less than it used to.
depends on the class of car…
as long as their is sufficient fuel to burn (ie: no rations), there will be a hp war on the high end.
though, it’s such low volume that it doesn’t really matter to everyday consumers… it’s just fan-boy stuff
however, as mentioned above, why is there a hp war among family cars??
all you need is an efficient 4 cylinder with 150 hp and 150 lb-ft of torque with a decent transmission for a camry/accord/malibu/sonata/fusion/taurus/etc…
for some reason, i doubt we’ll see a mpg war in this class that isn’t based on a ‘hybrid’ (or something else) design…
the only reason these cars won’t get 35-40 mpg within the next re-design cycle is accumulated laziness by the automakers…
Isn’t horsepower the basis of auto-related taxes in some countries?
It’s my understanding that the first horsepower wars ended with insurance companies increasing premiums, and the addition of crude emissions controls. Case in point: The 150hp V8 muscle cars of the early-mid 70s.
I’m on the “Let the market decide” bandwagon, up to a point. The market has already decided SUVs, the symbol of gas guzzling, aren’t worthy of consumers’ consideration as a vehicle to own nowadays, even though many high performance cars cost more and have less utility. If the market decides cars like the Ms, AMGs, and sports coupes like my 350Z, are the next No-Nos, then so be it.
I feel it’s possible for us to have our cake, and eat it too. In the short term, efficient turbocharging, high tech direct-injection engines, well-developed European diesel motors, hybrid drivetrains, etc. are all technologies that can keep us entertained, while providing reasonable efficiency. Nudges like stringent emissions, fuel economy requirements, and high gas taxes (in some countries), among other factors, help drive these innovations. Otherwise, we’d all be driving carbureted big block body-on-frame muscle cars.
It still doesn’t change the environment damage with every gallon of gas burned, every gallon of ethanol produced.
Yeah. I’m with Robstar. I can’t or won’t be buying any car that’s in the HP shootout, but something cheap, light, and has some zip? Keep talking…
I’m old enough now to have witnessed fuel scares before, the ones in the ’70’s and this one we’re experiencing now.
Just before each one, I swear that some media outlet was suggesting that the current era was ‘the golden age of horsepower’ only to have each era succeeded, at least eventually.
I think the best thing to do is to leave the horsepower wars alone, they will resolve themselves without government intervention. I’m reminded of Mr. Nixon’s fix for fuel shortages, the 55 MPH speed limit, and just how universally despised that was.
Fuel prices, insurance premiums, fashions and fads and who knows what else will eventually damper the horsepower wars.
I personally believe if our money remains devalued for any length of time and that fuel prices remain (in relative terms) high, a couple of things may happen. Like the early 1980’s we will see a wave of fuel efficient cars flood the market and push our fuel reserves back up. And if we acclimate to the higher fuel costs, I could see a time where people will again drive like they have in the past.
Even though I find things like the Super Bee Ram and Toyota Ironman pickup trucks to be monstrosities, if you can afford to buy and keep them, that’s your business. But please, no bitching about how much it costs to run.
I think they’re winding down. It’s reached the point where cars are having more hp than they know what to do with. Gas prices ended the last horsepower war. They are ending this one as well. There may be a new one in the future. As far as “should”, well, if you floor it and all you’re doing is spinning the tires or causing your traction control to freak out and apply the brakes, then yeah, you’re done.
The HP wars for all but top end performance cars should have ended years ago. It’s a testament to our own stupidity that it has not. Unless you are seriously wealthy, shouldn’t you RATIONALLY be more concerned with driving enjoyment, or at least track speed or other ACTUAL result.
Certainly, there will always be people buying high end stuff just because it is superior engineering. To them, the dyno matters in a way that art and music fans appreciate certain qualities in their objects of affection. That’s fine. But for the rest of us?
I have said it before, and will keep repeating it. The cars that make the most money are the ones that people FEEL are fun to drive, not the ones that make good numbers.
YES.
Gluttony is defined by Miriam-Webster’s online dictionary as: greedy or excessive indulgence.
In other words, in car terms, if in 1956, the average new automobile managed the new high speed expressways with 175 horsepower (measured the old way – relating to about 125 modern horsepower), then why is anything in excess of that needed?
Answer: it’s not NEEDED.
There’s a difference between “NEED” and “WANT” however.
Now that gas is in excess of $4 per gallon in the US and in excess of $5.50 in Canada, it’s starting to dawn on people about these truths.
A 1956 Chevrolet V8 had 162 horsepower (205 with power pack / 4 barrel carburetor and dual exhausts). Even the Corvette didn’t exceed 240hp.
A 1956 Ford V8 could be had in several versions and two displacements, between 173 and 225hp, and the Thunderbird from 202 to 225hp.
A 1956 Plymouth V8 came in three displacements, ranging between 180 and 240hp.
Not forgetting that a good 1/4 of the cars sold in the popular low priced three were six cylinder cars, back in the day. 125hp for Plymouth, 137hp for Ford, 140hp for Chevy.
It’s also noteworthy that my home state, Michigan, as well as some 1/2 dozen others, did not have a day time speed limit outside of towns in 1956.
My mom’s usual statement since I was little, when someone departed the house, is period-correct; she always used to say “keep it under 90.”
So, why on earth do we think we “need” 375 hp? Ridiculous.
Nope. Let the domestics waste their resources creating Mustangs and Challengers and Camaros that will sell a few thousand per year.
Meanwhile, Toyota will keep on cranking out Camrys and Corollas and such, which will sell MILLIONS per year.
It’s really that simple. All of the high-horsepower domestic stuff will sell about as much as Camry sells in ONE DAY.
And I suppose the mouth-breathing morons running the domestics keep on wondering why they can’t sell anything to anybody anymore.
Sheesh.
As a gear head that drives everyday and has a chance to drive some very nice / exotic cars (I have friends with far, far too much money), I can’t honestly recall when I’ve been able to drive anywhere the limit of any of those cars (insert your German / Italian nameplate here).
Fastest I’ve ever done in my car was 125 mph, and only twice in 30 months of ownership. I honestly think that it’s pointless to have that much power on tap without the ability (that includes both driver skill and where to actually drive the car) to use it. I’d rather have a car that has nicer / better finished appointments than a car that’s built like a 1st generation Lada and goes like a bat out of hell.
I like big power. There’s nothing in the world like snapping your neck at the twitch of your right foot.
If it means I’ll have to survive on a diet of ramen noodles to support my hp habit, then so be it.
I swear, if it were legal, Manufacturers could throw 5.0L V8 specs on an I4 engine, gas mileage specs of the I4, a throaty exhaust, and somewhere around 50% of the buyers whouldn’t have a clue (as long as the plastic engine cover said V8 and had 8 fake ports displayed).
It wouldn’t even need to have the fake plastic bits, most appliance buyers don’t even know their car is FWD. You could put a I4, V8 or jet engine under the hood and they would still have no clue what they were looking at, if they even open the hood at all.
Can’t expect them to teach kids the workings of a 100 y/o technology integral to the countries success in more ways than one when they can’t even teach them to balance a check book.
I believe that the bhp war is a race to the bottom. Whether one believes in “Global Warming/Climate Change”, “Peak Oil” or “Oil is Abiotic” doesn’t matter much when it’s highly unlikely that more fuel at lower costs is on it’s way…
750 bhp for the road is ludicrous. As is 600 bhp. As is 500 bhp. I am never – or very rarely – supportive of Big Gov’t demanding a cap on bhp but I DO demand common sense from the captains in industry.
That said, I’d like to have a go at a 997 GT2 and GT3 Club Sport to see if they are “too much” for the street. We all know the answer is “Yes, they are too much for the streets in the USA”. At least where I live.
For me it’s a moot point for Daimler Benz to create such powerful, HEAVY, AUTOMATIC and AUTOMATED MANUAL transmission vehicles. Not a manual shifter in sight. At least with Porsche there is an increase in the handling ability of the cars – not that 1/10% of the population can exploit it – and there is a small decrease in mass of the vehicle.
I’m much more the fan of the likes of the Lotus Elise…
I keep telling myself I’d be happy with 400 HP (at the wheels – not the crank). But I know as soon as I get there, I won’t rest until I see a 500 HP dyno ticket.
Keep the power coming…
Naturally, it must also be said that 1956 cars didn’t weigh in at 5800 pounds, and the average 175hp V8 car had reasonable enough performance. In fact, despite the thick steel, full frame construction and so forth, the 1956 Chevy Bel Air 4 door sedan with V8 weighs 3211 pounds, 20 pounds less than the six did.
The 1956 Ford Fairlane V8 4 door sedan weighed 3290.
The 1956 Plymouth Belvedere V8 4 door sedan weighed 3325, 3170 with a six.
Heck, even the 1956 Cadillac Series 62 4 door sedan (obviously, V8) only weighed in at 4430 pounds, or less than the average 2008 MINIVAN.
No way! At the rate we’re going, there could soon be 1500hp Smart cars! I want one.
Oh yeah, the 1956 Caddy only had 285hp (old HP, about equivalent to 200 new HP).
1973 saw some the change-over to “Net” HP from the old “gross” HP, which were a bit of a cheat to say the least (no water pump, no fan, free flowing exhausts, no alternator, no power steering pump, no air cleaner restrictions).
The “NET” figures are as the engine would be installed in the car, on the dynamometer. (This is a device to measure power).
thoots : “Nope. Let the domestics waste their resources creating Mustangs and Challengers and Camaros that will sell a few thousand per year.”
Its news to me that Ford is only selling a few thousand Mustangs per year. You might want to check your facts.
Year to date through May—Ford has sold over 41K Mustangs. While down significantly year-on-year—not bad considering they are 4 years into the model cycle and gas prices are going north of $4.
There seems to be plenty of interest here in telling others what they do and don’t need.
Will the day come when someone dictates how big our houses can be? How many hours a day we can use electricity? How about how much food we’re allowed to buy?
I think so, but then, I’m with Colin Chapman – “add lightness.” I’m going from 140hp to 166hp, but I’m also dropping 1200+ pounds.
As for whether they will end, that depends entirely on the price of gas.
My car still weighs 3200lb, has 82hp (at the crank) and gets along just fine.
I’ll be happy to replace it when a similarly sensible car comes out to replace it.
How about a 65hp I-3 in a Fit? That’d be a good start.
The Horsepower war has only lead to more expensive cars for ALL folks NOT just those that drive fast.
The HP war is also why most cars have a hard time getting over 30mpg.
The same could be said for safety equipment – it adds cost and weight. Like someone said earlier, older cars didn’t weigh as much so they didn’t need as much power to accelerate reasonably.
The horsepower wars are already over, but a few soldiers somehow missed being notified. Even so, that battle is done and over with. Good riddance.
Will the day come when someone dictates how big our houses can be? How many hours a day we can use electricity? How about how much food we’re allowed to buy?
Soon, if some people have their way. There are those who believe people should be limited in how much energy they consume. For instance, there could be limits to how much gas you can buy or how many miles you can drive and even what temperature you keep your home.
Never. Just add some new school HP into the mix (electricity).