Automatics kill your fun and dual clutch trannies (trust me, I know) are no equivalent to the experience and simple joy you get with three pedals.

No.

To the question at hand.

Drivers drive. Enthusiasts point.

torque converter = power loss, but 400, 500, or 600+ HP = who cares.

RWD = power loss, but FWD = unusable power. How much power is lost through a RWD setup anyway? I suspect that on a modern car there is very little difference.

Then again, RWD = power loss. I’m with you, but sometimes the power loss is worth the trade-off.

To answer carguy’s question about AMG Mercedes and stick-shifts… There was a brief period of time after I got my (used) C43 AMG but before I donated my 1986 300E stick shift. Hmmm… AMG suspension, 225/45/17 and 245/40/17 tires, faster steering, and 300 HP verses 205/60/50 tires and an engine and suspension that had 250,000 miles. I was on my 2nd set of shocks, but had a totally original (177 HP) engine! And did I mention donating the car to charity (because it wasn’t worth my time trying to sell it)? Anyway, I think the stick was mostly more fun to drive. A much firmer suspension, 2x the engine, 200k fewer miles, and a 5-speed automatic couldn’t overcome the entertainment of a relatively mediocre Borg-Warner with 250k on the synchros.

For marketing purposes, I used to mention that my 300E had “telepathically controlled shift algorithm.”

Many modern automatics let you pick your gear, just like an SMG or DSG. Of course, if the technology works, it shouldn’t matter whether it’s using a torque converter or a hydraulic clutch. In truth, if the system is well-designed, I don’t see any difference between an automatic with a ‘manual’ mode, and the hydraulic sequential transmission in a modern Formula 1 car. The machine can shift much faster than any driver, and with the technologies we have available you can still have all the advantages of telling the car when to shift. Plainly, if you want to go fast, you should let the car do the physical shifting.

However, I don’t necessarily want a fast car, I want a fun car. A fun car can most certainly be fast, but it’s not a priority. Rather, I want to feel involved in the driving and connected to the car. I don’t get that by telling an automatic or even a hydraulic manual when to shift – That’s not really involvement. In a car like that, the only difference between a perfect shift and a badly botched shift is a few hundred RPM. The car is coddling me, and while the results might be spectacular, the technology is stealing part of my involvement, part of my fun.

Driving a proper manual, though, is the ultimate involvement. A truly perfect shift is rewarding in an of itself, because you actually did it, instead of asking the car to take care of it. When you see a turn ahead and realize you’re going to want second gear, you don’t just flick a lever. You press the clutch in, blip the throttle to bring the revs up to just the right place, slide the shifter down to second, and slip the clutch back out. It’s hard, which makes it so very rewarding when you do it right.

So, can a driver’s car have an automatic? No. But a fast car sure can. Stop confusing the two.

Suppose that car was fitted with a left, right, and forward button on the dash and the driver could then tell the car which road to take when approaching any intersection. The car would still do all the steering and make all the decisions, but this would be a “manually steerable” car. If you pressed the left button but the upcoming intersection didn’t allow left turns, the car would just ignore you. If you didn’t press any buttons, the car would chose whatever way was appropriate at the next intersection for you. Would that then be a “driver’s car”? I still don’t think so.

If I heard correctly did he say there were two modes on the automatic transmission????

I thought i heard “sport” and “attack” mode.

Attack mode most likely meaning “traction control off” and shift pressures raised.

The thing everyone is forgetting is that this car has a highly engineered, twin intercooled, 2.3L supercharger on top of a 6.2L motor with 9.9:1 compression.

Anyone ever seen what happens to the 03 Cobra guys who slap a 2.3L blower on. Half of them crash. Same with the Lightnings.

There is a totally different power band than there is with the Nissan GT-R’s twin turbo v6 which is the primary competitor at the moment.

But one thing that dude mentioned is that he was driving the car around previously around Germany. The PCM/ECM learns his driving patterns, and records and calculates ideal throttle response vs. speed vs. shift points parameters, and corresponds with other PCM systems to improve the ability of the car to adapt to the driver, at least with an automatic transmission.

i think it kinda depends on what the driver’s objectives are. racers, autocrossers – in fact, sports drivers of any sort seem to value optimal performance over process. and, as a result, they may all be driving some sort of automatic, soon.

but not me. to me, driving a sports car is a lot like engaging in sex. although i certainly do enjoy arriving at my final destination, i also realize that much of the fun is in the gettin’ there and so, i don’t mind takin’ a little time to enjoy the ride.

I know the principals of driving manual, but I can’t. I prefer a built automatic tuned to the power band, and my personal driving preferences.

But if it were my 620 HP corvette, I want both my hands on the steering wheel, and both of my feet ready for the power sliding.

Of course it is. You’re driving a Ranger. My Miata has an automatic. It’s called muscle memory. When I actually think about shifting, I enjoy the one-ness I have with the car, which (unlike the Ranger) is a joy to drive by design. The rest of the time my right hand and left leg know the dance so well that I don’t even notice that I’m making an effort that wouldn’t be necessary with a slushbox. A very small percentage of drivers enjoy the process of driving as much as I do. I am a “driver”, and I own a “driver’s car”.

Oh, and starting a car is not the same as driving it. Those who think that we’re lauding manuals because they’re “old school” and who think they’re making a point by lauding even older school technologies are missing the mark. The point is there is a sweet spot in specs for street cars when it comes to maximizing the desire to, say, take on the Tail of the Dragon. Hand cranks and four or more pedals doesn’t get you there. A car that does everything for you doesn’t get you there, either. If that explanation doesn’t suffice, then none will. Besides, those of us who do get it enjoy our exclusivity.

One more thing – a DSG qualifies as a manual transmission in my book so long as it virtually never vetoes your decisions. I have no experience with them, but I am willing to concede that a well-engineered DSG might well be part of the new “sweet spot” for ultimate driving pleasure.

Can I point out again that cars are likely to become much lighter and less powerful, and the performance engines that thrive in the future are likely to have really narrow powerbands (because that’s what two-strokes have), so it’ll be a lot harder to hide the inertial and fluid losses of just about any automatic?

The motorcycle-style sequential will be the last transmission we all use before a sufficiently large surplus of renewable electricity shows up that we’re all compelled to go electric. The arguments over how automated we want our sequentials to be will make the current arguments seem simple and clear cut… paddles or lever? automated clutch or manual? full auto shifting or not? auto-blip, auto-lift, both, neither? forced downshift to first below 15 mph or not? My guess is that the enthusiasts’ choice will be a manual clutch, paddles, autolift, autoblip – but we’ll see both “push one button and go” and “do it all yourself”

My Ranger has a manual, and I think this is the last manual I’ll ever own. It’s mostly just a chore

Yes, for the elite few. With computer technologies evolving constantly, even that elite few will fade.

When was the last time that Kasparov beat deep blue? Do I have to mention that the optimum algorithm has been discovery for checker already?

It is obvious to me that these would qualify as driver’s cars.

In my opinion, manual transmissions are only essential for a “driver’s” car when torque output is relativley low.

Isn’t being a “driver” about getting the car around the track in the quickest way.

my 2 cents.