Comments on: Porsche v. Hizzoner the Mayor http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/ The Truth About Cars is dedicated to providing candid, unbiased automobile reviews and the latest in auto industry news. Mon, 23 Nov 2009 01:50:59 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: brownie http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-157382 brownie Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:33:21 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-157382 We shall see. I have no doubt it will suck for you as someone who drives through Manhattan regularly to get to the other side, and I feel bad for you, but I'm sorry to say that there aren't a lot of people in that boat. For the rest of us I have high hopes. We shall see. I have no doubt it will suck for you as someone who drives through Manhattan regularly to get to the other side, and I feel bad for you, but I’m sorry to say that there aren’t a lot of people in that boat. For the rest of us I have high hopes.

]]> By: quasimondo http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-157332 quasimondo Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:02:32 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-157332 The desired effect won't be the outcome achieved. The desired effect won’t be the outcome achieved.

]]> By: brownie http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156782 brownie Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:15:17 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156782 BostonTeaParty: Reduced congestion in the congestion zone. BostonTeaParty: Reduced congestion in the congestion zone.

]]> By: BostonTeaParty http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156762 BostonTeaParty Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:12:07 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156762 brownie: what desired effect? an increase in journey times? slower speeds, no reduction in levels of vehicles on the road, hows that had a desired effect for london? brownie: what desired effect? an increase in journey times? slower speeds, no reduction in levels of vehicles on the road, hows that had a desired effect for london?

]]> By: brownie http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156582 brownie Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:26:28 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156582 quasimondo: I guess I just disagree - we won't know that it doesn't work unless we try it. It has had the desired effect in London. The problem with the tunnel and bridge tolls (IMHO) is that they are far too low during peak times. Just because many people take advantage of Manhattan's ridiculously cheap rush hour tolls (the same price as every other time of day - how does that make sense?) doesn't mean that the tolls don't deter anyone from driving in; they simply don't deter enough of them at those low prices to solve the problem. CarShark: Better for whom? Maybe the people driving in from out of town, but they're not the ones living here, and they are a very, very small minority. It is simply outrageous for New York City (or London) to set its traffic policies to please affluent non-residents. quasimondo: I guess I just disagree – we won’t know that it doesn’t work unless we try it. It has had the desired effect in London. The problem with the tunnel and bridge tolls (IMHO) is that they are far too low during peak times. Just because many people take advantage of Manhattan’s ridiculously cheap rush hour tolls (the same price as every other time of day – how does that make sense?) doesn’t mean that the tolls don’t deter anyone from driving in; they simply don’t deter enough of them at those low prices to solve the problem.

CarShark: Better for whom? Maybe the people driving in from out of town, but they’re not the ones living here, and they are a very, very small minority. It is simply outrageous for New York City (or London) to set its traffic policies to please affluent non-residents.

]]> By: quasimondo http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156382 quasimondo Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:46:24 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156382 <em>I’d guess that only a tiny minority of TTAC readers live in or near a major city center (e.g. Manhattan or central London), own a car, and regularly drive that car in that city center during “peak hours”. And I’m sorry, if you aren’t one of those people your opinion on this topic has less value. I am the one who has to deal with Manhattan traffic, I am the one paying Manhattan taxes, I am the one voting for Manhattan’s government to represent my interests, and I want congestion to be dealt with, even if it means that I have to pay every time I take the car out of the garage. </em> As a fellow New Yorker who has to travel through Manhattan during rush hour, I have to disagree with your assessment that congestion charges will effectively reduce congestion in Manhattan. It costs $6 to come across the Lincoln and Holland tunnels and the George Washington Bridge. Does this effectively reduce traffic coming into the city from New Jersey? It costs $9 to cross the Verrazano Bridge into Staten Island, $4.50 to cross the Midtown and Brooklyn-Battery tunnels (each way), and another $4.50 (each way) to cross the Whitestone, Throgs Neck, and Triboro bridges into the Bronx and upper Manhattan. With all of these charges, has any of this reduced traffic along the Cross Bronx Expressway, the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway, the Long Island Expressway or the State Island Expressway? The answer is no. Charging motorists a fee on top of what they already have to pay to get into Manhattan won't encourage them to go all the way down through Staten Island, or all the way up through the Bronx. If by some miracle it did, all you've done is make traffic worse for an already overcrowded Cross Bronx or Staten Island expressway and you've shifted these pollution and congestion problems to residents in the Bronx and Staten Island. Effectively dealing with congestion in major cities like New York needs something better (and effective)than just beating people over the head with fees and taxes. I may not have the answer, but then again, you don't have to live on the sun to know that it's hot. I’d guess that only a tiny minority of TTAC readers live in or near a major city center (e.g. Manhattan or central London), own a car, and regularly drive that car in that city center during “peak hours”. And I’m sorry, if you aren’t one of those people your opinion on this topic has less value. I am the one who has to deal with Manhattan traffic, I am the one paying Manhattan taxes, I am the one voting for Manhattan’s government to represent my interests, and I want congestion to be dealt with, even if it means that I have to pay every time I take the car out of the garage.

As a fellow New Yorker who has to travel through Manhattan during rush hour, I have to disagree with your assessment that congestion charges will effectively reduce congestion in Manhattan. It costs $6 to come across the Lincoln and Holland tunnels and the George Washington Bridge. Does this effectively reduce traffic coming into the city from New Jersey? It costs $9 to cross the Verrazano Bridge into Staten Island, $4.50 to cross the Midtown and Brooklyn-Battery tunnels (each way), and another $4.50 (each way) to cross the Whitestone, Throgs Neck, and Triboro bridges into the Bronx and upper Manhattan. With all of these charges, has any of this reduced traffic along the Cross Bronx Expressway, the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway, the Long Island Expressway or the State Island Expressway? The answer is no. Charging motorists a fee on top of what they already have to pay to get into Manhattan won’t encourage them to go all the way down through Staten Island, or all the way up through the Bronx. If by some miracle it did, all you’ve done is make traffic worse for an already overcrowded Cross Bronx or Staten Island expressway and you’ve shifted these pollution and congestion problems to residents in the Bronx and Staten Island.

Effectively dealing with congestion in major cities like New York needs something better (and effective)than just beating people over the head with fees and taxes. I may not have the answer, but then again, you don’t have to live on the sun to know that it’s hot.

]]> By: CarShark http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156292 CarShark Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:32:43 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156292 What if doing nothing <strong>is</strong> better? What if doing nothing is better?

]]> By: brownie http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156262 brownie Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:25:52 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156262 I should say, "your opinion has less value <em>if you can't propose a reasonable alternative for my city and other cities</em>". It's easy to criticize things that don't affect you; it's harder to come up with something better. I should say, “your opinion has less value if you can’t propose a reasonable alternative for my city and other cities“. It’s easy to criticize things that don’t affect you; it’s harder to come up with something better.

]]> By: Robert Farago http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156202 Robert Farago Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:09:05 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156202 Uh, isn't it a CONGESTION TAX. You know, trying to tax away congestion. What's that got to do with what's coming out the cars' tailpipes? You know, directly. Uh, isn’t it a CONGESTION TAX. You know, trying to tax away congestion. What’s that got to do with what’s coming out the cars’ tailpipes? You know, directly.

]]> By: brownie http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156182 brownie Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:07:59 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156182 Is this TTAC or the Heritage Foundation? Taxes exist, deal with it. And the best kind of taxes (according to conservative economists, not radical left wingers) are those that influence behavior to correct for negative externalities. And congestion is a negative externality. It does not regulate itself, unless you just mean that once congestion sets in people will stay away enough to not add to it - that's a lot different from congesting curing itself. Emissions are also a negative externality. Externalities by definition arise because they affect neither buyers nor sellers to a meaningful degree in a free market; they must be corrected by government, preferably through behavior taxes, as economic incentives are generally the only things that work. I'd guess that only a tiny minority of TTAC readers live in or near a major city center (e.g. Manhattan or central London), own a car, and regularly drive that car in that city center during "peak hours". And I'm sorry, if you aren't one of those people your opinion on this topic has less value. I am the one who has to deal with Manhattan traffic, I am the one paying Manhattan taxes, I am the one voting for Manhattan's government to represent my interests, and I want congestion to be dealt with, even if it means that I have to pay every time I take the car out of the garage. Porsche's executives don't live here, I do, and if I (and my fellow residents) want congestion taxes or CO2 taxes or Porsche Owners are Douchebags taxes, Porsche should respect our sovereignty. Is this TTAC or the Heritage Foundation? Taxes exist, deal with it. And the best kind of taxes (according to conservative economists, not radical left wingers) are those that influence behavior to correct for negative externalities. And congestion is a negative externality. It does not regulate itself, unless you just mean that once congestion sets in people will stay away enough to not add to it – that’s a lot different from congesting curing itself. Emissions are also a negative externality. Externalities by definition arise because they affect neither buyers nor sellers to a meaningful degree in a free market; they must be corrected by government, preferably through behavior taxes, as economic incentives are generally the only things that work.

I’d guess that only a tiny minority of TTAC readers live in or near a major city center (e.g. Manhattan or central London), own a car, and regularly drive that car in that city center during “peak hours”. And I’m sorry, if you aren’t one of those people your opinion on this topic has less value. I am the one who has to deal with Manhattan traffic, I am the one paying Manhattan taxes, I am the one voting for Manhattan’s government to represent my interests, and I want congestion to be dealt with, even if it means that I have to pay every time I take the car out of the garage. Porsche’s executives don’t live here, I do, and if I (and my fellow residents) want congestion taxes or CO2 taxes or Porsche Owners are Douchebags taxes, Porsche should respect our sovereignty.

]]> By: David Holzman http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-156122 David Holzman Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:58:20 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-156122 Ken Livingston is discriminating against cars. If he's worried about pollution, he should impose a pollution tax that will tax every source of the pollution he's worried about. If he's worried about global heating, he should impose a carbon tax, for the same reason. But taxing cars when home heating, industry, agriculture, and various other pursuits cause pollution is an inefficient way to reduce pollution. If a particular pollutant is known to cause a high rate of pollution in London, then perhaps that could be taxed Ken Livingston is discriminating against cars. If he’s worried about pollution, he should impose a pollution tax that will tax every source of the pollution he’s worried about. If he’s worried about global heating, he should impose a carbon tax, for the same reason. But taxing cars when home heating, industry, agriculture, and various other pursuits cause pollution is an inefficient way to reduce pollution. If a particular pollutant is known to cause a high rate of pollution in London, then perhaps that could be taxed

]]> By: FunkyD http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155952 FunkyD Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:10:36 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155952 "The power to tax involves the power to destroy." - US Supreme Court Justice John Marshall (way back in 1819 and even more poignent today!) “The power to tax involves the power to destroy.”

- US Supreme Court Justice John Marshall (way back in 1819 and even more poignent today!)

]]> By: Facebook User http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155722 Facebook User Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:00:22 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155722 Infringe- to defeat, frustrate, encroach: to enter by gradual steps or by stealth into the possessions or rights of another. Increased taxes on an object most certainly do infringe on my rights to own that object. If Londoners truly didn't want or need their cars, they simply wouldn't buy them. The fact that Porsche makes a profit is absolute proof that people at least want their cars, despite what the Lord High Mayor of London thinks or wants. Infringe- to defeat, frustrate, encroach: to enter by gradual steps or by stealth into the possessions or rights of another.

Increased taxes on an object most certainly do infringe on my rights to own that object. If Londoners truly didn’t want or need their cars, they simply wouldn’t buy them. The fact that Porsche makes a profit is absolute proof that people at least want their cars, despite what the Lord High Mayor of London thinks or wants.

]]> By: BostonTeaParty http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155542 BostonTeaParty Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:19:41 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155542 Its about time that someone tried to do something about livingstone and his charges that dont do anything for london. I hope more companies join in and stand up to his draconian efforts. Even the company that runs the scheme is a joke and cant do it properly. Average speed has decreased further in london and traffic levels are higher than before the tax was introduced. yeah its working ken well done.... Its about time that someone tried to do something about livingstone and his charges that dont do anything for london. I hope more companies join in and stand up to his draconian efforts. Even the company that runs the scheme is a joke and cant do it properly.
Average speed has decreased further in london and traffic levels are higher than before the tax was introduced. yeah its working ken well done….

]]> By: N85523 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155362 N85523 Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:54:40 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155362 Every time I get sick of over-regulation in my part of the world, TTAC brings up how bad it is elsewhere and makes me feel better. I hope such putrid justification for regulations does not become common in the US. Every time I get sick of over-regulation in my part of the world, TTAC brings up how bad it is elsewhere and makes me feel better. I hope such putrid justification for regulations does not become common in the US.

]]> By: guyincognito http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155322 guyincognito Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:45:44 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155322 "If you don’t like it, why don’t you tell us your reasonable alternative?" No congestion charges. When congestion becomes too much of a problem it regulates itself. As soon as it is faster/cheaper/more convenient to take public transportation people do so. Congestion charges like this aren't aimed at reducing congestion. I'm sure anyone who drives in London is not going to be deterred by a tax. They are cleverly marketed tax hikes. What is truly scary is the precident they set. Yeah, its easy to not feel sorry for Porsche owners, but when these charges get implemented in other cities, which do not have such advanced public transportation systems, under the guise of saving the environment, it is the middle class who will pay the most. “If you don’t like it, why don’t you tell us your reasonable alternative?”

No congestion charges. When congestion becomes too much of a problem it regulates itself. As soon as it is faster/cheaper/more convenient to take public transportation people do so.

Congestion charges like this aren’t aimed at reducing congestion. I’m sure anyone who drives in London is not going to be deterred by a tax. They are cleverly marketed tax hikes. What is truly scary is the precident they set. Yeah, its easy to not feel sorry for Porsche owners, but when these charges get implemented in other cities, which do not have such advanced public transportation systems, under the guise of saving the environment, it is the middle class who will pay the most.

]]> By: Virtual Insanity http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155302 Virtual Insanity Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:43:38 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155302 Banning them? No. But it is possible to tax them to death. This is what happens when you give power to the Crown and not the people underneath it. I do have to say I loved what James May said about Livingstone and these taxes on the Top Gear awards. Banning them? No. But it is possible to tax them to death.

This is what happens when you give power to the Crown and not the people underneath it. I do have to say I loved what James May said about Livingstone and these taxes on the Top Gear awards.

]]> By: brownie http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155122 brownie Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:05:08 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155122 Hello, London isn't <em>banning</em> Porsche's, it's upping the congestion charge for them. That is not infringing on anyone's right to own them. I'll never understand the level of vitriol this site has against congestion charges in small areas of a handful of cities. If you don't like it, why don't you tell us your reasonable alternative? Hello, London isn’t banning Porsche’s, it’s upping the congestion charge for them. That is not infringing on anyone’s right to own them.

I’ll never understand the level of vitriol this site has against congestion charges in small areas of a handful of cities. If you don’t like it, why don’t you tell us your reasonable alternative?

]]> By: Edward Niedermeyer http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155062 Edward Niedermeyer Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:37:44 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155062 Democracy really starts to suck when elected officials become convinced that they <em>are</em> the will of the people... "by reducing your freedom, I represent you." Democracy really starts to suck when elected officials become convinced that they are the will of the people… “by reducing your freedom, I represent you.”

]]> By: Justin Berkowitz http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/comment-page-1/#comment-155042 Justin Berkowitz Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:19:41 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog/porsche-v-hizzoner-the-mayor/#comment-155042 <em>"Porsche are trying to deprive Londoners of their democratic right to decide … whether they want gas-guzzling and polluting cars to drive in London when there is absolutely no need for them to do so"</em> Wow, that's a serious case of "If I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is." Not only does it deprive Londoners of their democratic right to decide whether they want to own a gas-guzzling and polluting car, but it imposes the mayor's view (rather than being some kind of spokesman for the people). Awful. “Porsche are trying to deprive Londoners of their democratic right to decide … whether they want gas-guzzling and polluting cars to drive in London when there is absolutely no need for them to do so”

Wow, that’s a serious case of “If I want your opinion, I’ll tell you what it is.”

Not only does it deprive Londoners of their democratic right to decide whether they want to own a gas-guzzling and polluting car, but it imposes the mayor’s view (rather than being some kind of spokesman for the people). Awful.

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