Comments on: NYT Previews the Honda/Acura TSX Diesel

By: EJ_San_Fran

EJ_San_Fran — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:04:41 +0000

This Honda sounds like a really neat car.

HOWEVER, it is out of the question that a lot of people in the US can switch to diesel.
Diesel is a European specialty, promoted by the taxation they have over there.
To switch the US fleet to diesel on a large scale requires diesel fuel that doesn’t exist, won’t exist and therefore will be so expensive it remains reserved for Europe.

By: Geotpf

Geotpf — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:28:23 +0000

The fact that diesel is a buck more than gasoline, and pollutes more (or has to be extremely neutered to pollute less), negates a large amount of the benefit of diesel, unfortuantly.

As usual, I’ll believe it when it’s available at a dealership near me.

By: Paul Niedermeyer

Paul Niedermeyer — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:06:47 +0000

I don’t want to come across as consistantly anti-diesel, because, as Martin said, it has its uses. But any unrealistic expectations about Honda’s diesel need to be put in perspective. I’ve been following reviews of it for almost ten years in auto, motor und sport, and although it was praised for its smoothness and relatively high-revving capability (it can hit 5,000 rpm, if you try), its fuel economy was never any better than the competition (VW, etc.). Take those NYT numbers with a grain of salt; I sincerely doubt the US EPA numbers will be much better than the VW Jetta TDI. I’ll throw out my guess: 32/42.

By: joeaverage

joeaverage — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:41:09 +0000

I’d love to have a good Honda turbo diesel and a six speed manual tranny in one of those “ugly” CR-Vs. However they need to be careful the CR-V does not get any bigger. If it does then the Pilot and -V are competing for the same customer.

Our ‘99 has been an excellent vehicle.

By: Landcrusher

Landcrusher — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:59:59 +0000

I think WhatdoIknow has a good point. I don’t see a lot of convergence in the diesel and luxury sedan areas. Mercedes has had a niche of buyers, but I don’s see it being that big a market at the high end.

Accord, accord wagon, SUV’s, sure, but the sporty, upmarket sedan? Na.

By: mxfive4

mxfive4 — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:26:40 +0000

TomAnderson :
Also, if they put this engine in the North American Accord, they price it right (~$25k), and it returns similar fuel economy numbers, I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

The current redesigned TSX starts at $28,960 – read $29k. I highly doubt the diesel will come in for less than the base model.

I think a 2k premium for the diesel is realistic – so you are looking at a $31k car.

By: TomAnderson

TomAnderson — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:09:18 +0000

John Horner:

The $5.13/gallon question is, since when is diesel the upmarket alternative to hybrids (including the ill-fated Mercedes 300SD)?

Huh? 300 SDs (the 2nd generation W126 ones, at least) are still a common site here in SoCal (I do my part).

Also, if they put this engine in the North American Accord, they price it right (~$25k), and it returns similar fuel economy numbers, I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

By: whatdoiknow1

whatdoiknow1 — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:23:42 +0000

Call me the odd man out here but I for one do not believe Honda will see much success with a diesel powered TSX in the USA, maybe if they had the good sense to stick this engine in an Accord or CRV but a TSX, no way!

I have to say Honda is just plain lost in the woods nowadays. Outside of the entry level Fit Honda does not sell one car in NA with a hatch or wagon. The Odyessy is great, but more and more Honda has noting in its Honda or Acura line up that appeals to real Honda fans. The new TSX is bloated, over-weight, and ugly. It is now underpowered and a “nothong special” car. Stuffing a diesel engine in the TSX will do nothing to overcome the REAL shortcomings of this car. Is the TSX a family people mover or is it a premium performance car? Adding a diesel to this model only confuses this car and the Acura brand even more.

In America, at least. When we buy a $30,000+ wannabe luxury/sports sedan we are interrested in perfomance, style, some prestige and some value. We want decent to good fuel economy. We dont by a TSX because it is the “best” on gas!

The Diesel TSX can be added to that ever growing pile of questionable hondas:
RL
RDX
Civic Hybrid
Accord Hybrid
Last gen civic Si
Ridgeline
Ugly CRV

By: Jac

Jac — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:58:44 +0000

I’ll keep diesel over a hybrid. No heavy metals to be mined or refined. The added potential for veggy power is nice as well.

By: carguy

carguy — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:52:59 +0000

While hybrids are definitely getting better I currently still prefer diesels as it makes for a better driving experience. Diesels don’t have rely on skinny low grip tires or have the bad pedal feel of a hybrids regenerative breakes. I may well change my mind when Toyota releases its third generation hybrid system but until then I still vote for diesel.

Now if only Acura would sell the wagon version I would be first in line to buy one.

By: marc

marc — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:53:59 +0000

0-60 in 9 seconds from a $35,000 luxury sports sedan. If thats what it takes to get 44 mpg from the diesel, I’ll stick to my Prius thanx.

By: iNeon

iNeon — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:25:17 +0000

There’s a certain code of honesty people ought to adhere to when speaking about history; claiming Duchamp invented, and presented, the urinal in 1917 is blatantly false.

He just changed the name. Ditto Honda.

By: jaje

jaje — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:07:46 +0000

@ iNeon: Honda has the first mass produced variable valve timing and electornic control (VTEC) engine on the market. The Alfa was mechanically controlled and fixed limiting it’s effectiveness substantially. Formula 1 had this technology for over a decade where Honda competed and developed it. The first VTEC engines available to the public in 1986 were actually in the Civic SiR, Integra GS-R and CRX SiR with the 1.6 liter dohc vtec (the all mighty…well for a 1.6 liter engine…b16a). That engine was more powerful and stronger than almost any other n/a engine 2.0 or smaller. The NSX saw the first development of it in America with the Integra GS-R and Prelude VTEC very quickly following.

Honda’s VTEC system was highly developed (and since selling over a million engines with this technology) there has not been one warranty repair on this system (this I got from Top Gear from Jezza who is really not much of a Honda Fanboy so it must be impressive to some sort of degree). The VTEC system was alone for the longest time even with Toyota VVti, cariocam, etc. which did not do the same level of control. Only after Toyota contracted out to Yamaha to build the 1.8gze (??) Celica engine and BMW with the double vanos truly have the same technology.

Read AutoExpress (Euro Car Mag) and there’s an article about the 1st generation Accord Diesel with the 2.2 and it shattered the speed and economy records for engines in its class.

Honda makes engines and makes them very well – it’s just they put such small engines in their cars that they are overshadowed by simple displacement or forced induction.

By: serpico

serpico — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:56:18 +0000

In the next few years, if all goes well, plug in hybrids might be the rage for urban areas. Even the kits coming out for existing hybrids. If all you drive is to work everyday, the gas engine may not even turn on.

By: MgoBLUE

MgoBLUE — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:50:42 +0000

I concur with Kman.

Honda and BMW offer engine superiority.

And this is not a recent development.

By: Mirko Reinhardt

Mirko Reinhardt — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:48:37 +0000

@Martin Schwoerer
If you are something like the typical salesman, driving long distances on the highway for 30 or 40 thousand miles per year, the economy of a Diesel is terrific.

That’s what I’d say… I just drove 6000 kilometers in 18 days in a rental Ford Focus CC with a 2.0 gasser. On some days I had to refuel twice.
I have to drive a lot now. Which is why I ordered a diesel car. Which won’t be delivered until mid-July.

By: iNeon

iNeon — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:46:39 +0000

Rodster205– Alfa sold a VVT-equipped automobile engine in the U.S. in the 1980 Spider. First honda I remember with VTEC would’ve been the NSX in 1991. Correct me if I’m wrong, ya’ll.

So, if you mean: “first in 11 years following Alfa’s lead” by saying: “…first to market by Honda” then sure– but if you mean: “first to market by Honda” by saying: “first to market by Honda,” then you couldn’t be more wrong.

Patents were filed by FIAT in the 1960s, making Honda quite late to the game in 1989. Even Nissan beat them to the prize– 2 years prior.

Back on topic– Diesels are great, but with light-duty engines there’s a certain risk involved. These engines need to run for many hundreds of thousands of miles to be viable alternatives to gas-fueled engines.

Hows that famously overbuilt Honda ATX going to fare with these engines? That’s my one curiosity with these.

By: Kman

Kman — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:12:58 +0000

There are two Engine companies in the world:

Honda and BMW.

Their engines, each for their own reasons, stand out head-and-shoulders above the rest.

By: Jac

Jac — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:00:53 +0000

Nice engine. Perhaps GM should contract with Honda again (like the 3.5 in the Vue) It could help pull the fat from the fire even with their current platforms. This would also allow GM to avoid their past diesel image.

By: SkiD666

SkiD666 — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:54:48 +0000

The Mercedes’ Cailfornia-compliant oil burner requires urea because of it’s displacement size, if Honda’s engine was a little bigger it would require it too. Nothing special about Honda’s engineers, just different design specs.

By: John Horner

John Horner — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:53:05 +0000

I’ve actually got my fingers crossed that Honda’s diesel will be viable. The ever growing divergence between gasoline and diesel fuel prices is certainly a big handicap, but boy would I love to clock 50+ mpg on long drives. We do one or more seriously long distance trips per year. Anything to stay off the *)*&()*&(* airlines!

By: Martin Schwoerer

Martin Schwoerer — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:48:03 +0000

There are plenty of reasons to dislike modern Diesel engines, but for some applications, nothing comes close.

If you are something like the typical salesman, driving long distances on the highway for 30 or 40 thousand miles per year, the economy of a Diesel is terrific. A hybrid is better for urban and suburban driving and has lower emissions, though.

Honda can make the Diesel Accord a success if they market it as a mid-price, reliable, comfortable car for heavy-use drivers: what else is there?

By: brettc

brettc — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:41:07 +0000

I’d be interested in test driving a TSX diesel when they appear. That 2.2 litre engine has received a lot of positive press in Europe. Diesel’s gone down 4 cents where I am, but even if the cost of diesel stays high, it’s hard not to like the torque and the rarity of filling up with a modern turbodiesel. I’m sure the TSX wouldn’t disappoint in that area. Honda engineers seem to know what they’re doing when it comes to their engines.

By: rodster205

rodster205 — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:20:15 +0000

It should be no suprise to anyone that has paid attention over the years that Honda can out-engineer Mercedes. How about a few names make the point? How about CVCC? VTEC? Both of these were first to market by Honda. How about the Insight, the first American Hybrid, and I think still gets better real world mileage than the Prius. Oh yeah, and a little thing rolling around now called the Clarity. Everyone else said fuel-cell couldn’t be done, or would take a long time. Honda quietly built one. The other makers should be VERY worried about the dedicated Prius fighter that Honda is working on.

By: Jon Paul

Jon Paul — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:16:47 +0000

My TSX gets the same mileage that the writer reports: 20/32, 24.8 combined. So is it worth paying 25% more for fuel to get a 70% boost city, 65% hwy?? Even if the diesel got 30/48, you’d be talking 50%/50% gain for only 25% price increase. Combined, if only 40mpg for diesel, would be a 60% gain.

If it hits those numbers, this car will sell to people who got B’s or better in math = )