The current generation Prius (2004-2008) has not got “energy saving” (i.e. useless) tires, it has normal radial all-season tires. There were too many complaints from the prior generation of Prius and Toyota actually took notice (gasp! wow!)

As for the rumors that the Japanese Government helped Toyota develop the hybrid technology, I ask you – why is that “wrong” when our own American tax dollars were UNSUCCESSFULLY P!SSED AWAY on the so-called “Supercar Project” by “Willy” Clinton?

Doesn’t anyone else remember the so-called 80 mile per gallon hybrid cars supposedly developed by GM, Ford and Chrysler over a decade ago? Yeah, we paid for that.

The idiots in Washington did like they always do. Threw money at a perceived problem.

They forgot to require that if GM, Ford and Chrysler accept the money, they should build so many of the cars per year…… so none were ever put into production.

But of course, from what I understand, the Chrysler was nothing but fakey-do anyway. The microturbine was running in some of the drives – but it was not connected to anything. They had to be short drives, as they big clunky batteries were the only power source.

Yeah, the Chevrolet Volt was “supposedly” already engineered by GM, Ford and Chrysler over a decade ago.

I think as a taxpayer, I’d like to know where my money went. And yep, I’d like it back, thanks.

The truth is that it’s simply a matter of applying our ever increasing technical knowledge and capabilities to achieve the benefits we seek. Anything else is grossly wasteful.

This particular improvement in powertrains, for example, is not unlike the development of EGR valves decades ago. The increased power and body dimensions bring nothing but benefits to fuel economy, on top of the inherent benefits those changes carry in and of themselves.

If you think the Japanese government has unfairly subsidized the development of hybrids, you should take a look at what Uncle Sam is up to with E85. At least the Japanese tied their horse to the right cart…

What’s wrong with you Berkowitz?

How can the addition of power be a negative, anyways? We’ve seen engines get replaced with more powerful, more efficient, cleaner versions. And what if the engine’s extra power means it doesn’t have to work as hard to get to 70 mph on the freeway and stay there? Won’t that mean better efficiency at the hybrid’s weak spot?

What I think Justin wanted was a hypermiler’s dream. Again, too narrow a focus. What we’ve got instead is an actual car with appeal. You don’t have to put up with the foibles. Besides, I thought we all realized that the Prius is the Camry of the future. In 10 or 15 years, this will be the best-selling car in America, I think. It may only sell 50000 copies, but still…

So, I think Toyota is doing the right things to improve the Prius. They made the vehicle larger without making it heavier and improved on it’s already leading fuel economy whilst providing more passing reserve. 160 HP for a four passenger sedan/hatchback is just about perfect. My old Volvo 850 with a manual transmission was rated at 168 HP, carried four people in comfort and had plenty of power.

Not every car can benefit from being bigger and heavier than it’s predecessor, but it isn’t always a bad thing either. I would sure much rather commute in a modern day Corolla or Civic than in it’s 1975 predecessor, and my probability of arriving alive is much better in the 2008 versions.

“If the Prius stayed the same size but fuel economy jumped to 60 mpg from 50, wouldn’t that be more important?”

Actually, no. The problem with stating fuel economy in miles per gallon instead of in gallons per 1000 miles is that people assume that any 10 MPG improvement is the same as another, but the actual fuel consumption reduction in going from 10 MPG to 20 MPG is huge (100 gallons/1k miles to 50 gallons/1k miles) while the improvement from 50 to 60 MPG is rather small at 20 gallons/1k miles to 16.67 gallons/1k miles. Using 3.33 fewer gallons of fuel every thousand miles is a minor cost, even at $5/gallon. For most people you are talking about $15-$20/month fuel cost reduction at $5/gallon.

Conversely, if someone moves from their 25 MPG Camry to a 50 MPG Prius then they save about 20 gallons per month, or around $100/month at 12k miles per year.

Making the Prius into a strong segment competitor with the Camry, Accord, Malibu et. al. can be accomplished with it’s uprated specifications, and that is where the heart of the US automobile market is.

I wonder if Toyota will kill the Camry Hybrid when the new Prius arrives?

Bottom line: I don’t think Toyota is loosing the plot at all.

As for the shape, I couldn’t care less. Practicality is way more important to me, and this Prius has what I need (if it has comfortable driving position for a tall driver). I’ve had two sedans in my entire life, and my next car is not going to be a sedan. I want some utility without having to buy a truck or an SUV.

What Toyota did with the RAV and then Highlander is no different than any other car manufacture does. Move vehicles up market or in size, then introduce a new one that is smaller.

The TC has not been a huge hit in terms of numbers sold, but it has compared to what the Celica sold. It’s a great coupe and there is nothing at all wrong with Toyotas… but it can’t be considered a “hit”. The Avalon has turned into a very nice car, I had one as a rental when all the GM midsizers were gone…never been more thankful for a Toyota!

The Camry hybrid DOES prove that people want the so-called “stealth” hybrids. It has been quite successful. I believe it is the second highest selling hybrid, moving some 4000 units a month, fully 10% of Camry’s sales.

Owners of Priuses know that we bought the car for its real, practical reasons, not because it looked the part. Otherwise the Insight would have been on our shopping lists.

The hybrid Camry has real advantages too, and it was a tough choice for me. I would have gladly given up some of the mpg for the extra passenger room and power, but I could not give up the practicality and style of the Prius hatch. I will always choose a 5 door over a 4 door. But for some, who do not care about or may even dislike hatches, the Camry is a wonderful option.

With the updates in store, the Prius will be even more perfect. Larger, more powerful, better mpg, and I will still get my hatch. The next Camry hybrid better have something up its sleeve, because now there really will be no reaon for it, and its sales will suffer.

While my car is no power monster, I can push my (1987) 5sp 3.0V6 (3200lbs) to 31 on the highway, even with crosswinds, tops off (drag), and going 75mph.

I’d like to see how these CVTs stack up next to a 5- or 6-speed with proper gearing and a competent driver behind the wheel.

Still laughing.

Bunter

Chuckling,

Bunter

We also see many folks in TTAC make claims that the Scion TC is not a proper replacement for the Celica. Once again they are missing the point and will continue to fail to understand why Toyota is so successful with so-called lackluster products. While the TC is not the sportscar that the last Celica (GTS) was, it can be had for about a whopping $7000.00 less than a Celica GTS. Now I have driven a base Celcia, a Celica GTS, and a TC and must admit that the TC is far more fun than the under-powered base Celica and in the REAL world, it is also far more enjoyable than the high strung GTS. One again, needless to say the TC has been a major sales success for Toyota when the Celcia was not. The high revving, low torque engine in the GTS was of limited value in an everyday car, while the torquey 2.4l egnine from the Camry work wonderfully in everyday use. It “FEELS” powerful while the GTS engine did not until you basically abused it.
Styling was also a major factor in the TC success. It looks like a real car as opposed to a wannabe race car. Something that many ADULT men and women truly want.

I remember when the first Avalon came to market and we had a number of critics claiming that no one wants a larger camry. Three generations later I would say, WRONG!

I write all of this because IMO Toyota knows what it is doing with its latest plans for the Prius. As I have come to learn, right here in TTAC, the Prius is now a brand on to itself. Today there are a lot of folks that are EXPECTING more and different Priuses. As an example my childess uncle and wife have two priuses and would happy trade one in for something different yet the same.

The Prius has two very importatnt elements to it, the drivetrain and the body. It is the combination of the two that is making this car so popular. Yet the actual Prius drivetrain can and WILL be used to underpin many different types of vehicles.

Now it is a given that Toyota has a great deal of good sense. Now if ToMoCo would just grow some bigger balls and dust off the last MR2 and stuff a prius drivetrain into that thing. Hey they could steal any remaining thunder from Telsa with the snap of a finger.

When have Americans ever looked at a car and said: “no thanks, too big.”

Besides, longer can actually help mileage by improving aerodynamics.

The rompin’-stompin’ success of the Camry hybrid shows how well a sedan version of the Prius hybrid with worse mileage would do in the market. Turns out, folks still want to be seen in a green machine, stealth environmentalism just isn’t quite as palatable. That said, you better believe the Prius (2nd and upcoming 3rd generation) is on my shortlist of cars to purchase in the next couple of years when the Lumina gives up the ghost.

Civic Hybrid is definitely a good choice, but I was speaking more to Toyota’s business choices than to consumer options.

The Prius is well past the early adopter stage, so I was just stating that I think some more mainstream styling and configurations would be in order. It doesn’t have, in my mind, any sort of elitist cachet to it anymore.

So build a little coupe that bests the current version, but then offer a larger sedan/hatch and a wagon variant with slightly worse mileage would probably be the best move for Toyota, both from a market share and CAFE point of view.