Toyota sales down 40% in US and in Japan. They may never come back. Hyundai, Kia, Subaru, Daewoo maybe, Suzuki, all the new Chinese cars, Tata, Mazda, Nissan, probably some of GM products (the Malibu is a nicer car than the Camry)- all these companies are now producing nicer cars/better value than Toyota.

Toyota is so far out of the game they may never recover.

And no, I did not forget Honda. Just wanted to save Honda for last. Toyota product does not match up well against any comparable Honda product.

So the whole Toyota product line, save perhaps the Prius, is now second, third, fourth or fifth choice.

Firing some of the management is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Toyota Titanic.

A modern family sedan can outrun the sports cars of several years ago; it is no longer necessary to eliminate practicality in order to get good handling and acceleration. The kid hauler may not shine in the style and sex appeal departments, but in terms of just about every other way, they’re better cars where it counts.

Style and sex appeal is the only reason why the vast majority of sports car buyers actually go ahead and buy them. Let’s face it, sports cars are emotional purchases; dynamic capabilities are usually secondary to these concerns. For the buyer that does indeed value dynamic abilities beyond all others, perhaps they would resent having to carry around 1,500 pounds of extra weight in the form of a giant trunk and extra doors and whatnot just to have a decent sprint to sixty.

Which is more fun to drive?

Lexus IS-F
or
BMW M3

Celica GT-S
or
RSX Type-S

MR2 Spyder
or
MX-5 Miata

They had their chance to make a fun driving car. It was the Scion tC. How well did that turn out?

clifs notes?

You make a very valid point about practical cars being fast now. But they could still use an image boost, which is a key piece of what the article ( I think) is trying to say.

If a guy on the street says “You’re bland!” to Toyota, what can they do to disspell that notion? Try to explain how the Camry SE is fast. Chances are, as soon as the word “camry” is said, the guy is already gone. Compare that to Nissan (Z), Mazda (RX8, Miata), Honda (S2000), or even Hyundai (Tiburon & Genesis). Toyota is lacking here. now, if they could cook up a Camry ‘SHO’ (TRD?), we’d be in business. My vote (other than the decontened IS250 I floated in a previous post): Drop the lame body kit, and add a 6MT. It’d be a like a 2003 Maxima SE! Heck, put the TRD supercharger on *FROM THE FACTORY* and brag about it all day. Sure, you’d only sell 8000/yr, but that;’s not the point. For relatively small investment, they’d have something to talk about w/ the enthusiasts! And that’s the key here.

I would agree, except that it’s a false statement.

Edmunds tested the V-6 Camry as having a 0-60 time of 6.5 seconds, which is only 0.1 second longer than the 0-60 time of a 328i. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109710/pageId=69305 Edmunds tested the V-6 RAV4 as having a 0-60 time of 7.2 seconds.

One reason that we’ve seen a decline in sporty cars is because we can now produce practical cars with the same performance characteristics if we want them. A modern family sedan can outrun the sports cars of several years ago; it is no longer necessary to eliminate practicality in order to get good handling and acceleration. The kid hauler may not shine in the style and sex appeal departments, but in terms of just about every other way, they’re better cars where it counts.

Fun to drive? Toyota? The second genration MR2 Turbo will always be a fond memeory.

Don’t get too hung up on the word “joy.” The speech may have been translated from Japanese, and perhaps our word “pleasure” could have applied instead.

And if he’s serious about selling cars at prices “that will attract” buyers, I suggest Toyota start by forbidding its distributors from adding mandatory packages of vastly overpriced add-ons that can inflate the tab on a Camry by a thousand bucks.

The most encouraging comment in Toyoda’s speech was the admission that they need to figure out Europe’s “automotive culture”. However, if it’s to do us any good, they will have to bring the European models over here without anesthetizing them for the US market.

The recently released third-generation Prius is a prime example of this spirit. I am certain this car will satisfy both the needs of society as well as our customers.”

Toyota is more or less throwing all their eggs in the baskets of fuel economy, eco-friendliness, and ‘Toyota quality’ which generally involves decontenting in places where the customer doesn’t value or detect the cost saving measure.

This isn’t new at all and it won’t work. The reason why Hyundai, Kia, and even Subaru are gradually eating Toyota’s lunch is because Toyota can no longer exact a price premium out of the ‘undecided’ customers who are cross-shopping these brands.

Hyundai/Kia offer lower cost vehicles with longer warranties, cheaper manufacturing costs, and a comparable level of quality. Someone import oriented who is now planning on driving a boring appliance for the next 10 years will more than likely consider a Hyundai or Kia along with the Toyota.

I would argue that Subaru’s clientele represents many of the undecided customers that would otherwise consider a Toyota or Volvo product IF they were actually any fun to drive. If Toyota ever considered folding Scion and giving the financial resources to Subaru, it would probably work out better for them in the end. I really don’t think that Toyota can hit both sides of the comfort / sport nexus well (if the history of the company is any indication) and an independent firm like Subaru that has the sporty and unique DNA would be a far better fit.

That nails it. The Detroit mistake was to assume that an enjoyable experience is derived from horsepower, horsepower and horsepower, that horsepower could only be derived from cubic inches, and that providing more ponies gave them an excuse to cut corners elsewhere.

The consumer has left the bigger-is-better ethic behind. Now, they also want refinement, ergonomics and a sense that the sum of the package is greater than the parts.

Look at the difference between Toyota and GM.

GM says: We ARE building the cars that people want, they just don’t know they want them, as we have been selling them crap for the past 30 years. Oh, and ignore the fact that we have also been saying that our cars are the cars that people want for the past 30 years…pay no attention to the sales numbers.

Exactly. Detroit’s hubris is a fatal flaw, and it’s clear from some of the comments that even bankruptcy wasn’t enough to awaken the Detroit Defenders. Detroit’s biggest supporters will never, never get it.

It looks from the speech that Toyota is preparing for a smaller market, and is revisiting whether some of their assumptions about the consumer have been accurate. Had Detroit been this introspective this quickly, they wouldn’t have needed bailouts.

What I take away here is that his name is on the building and he wants to goose their reputation, even if it doesn’t do a heck of a lot in terms of volume. That’s not the only metric to look at.

I enjoy driving my Rav. Friends with newer ones tell me they enjoy their Ravs. The last time I looked at Edmunds, the Yaris reports included people who had downsized from 1/2 ton pickups and other large cars who were saying “Love my Yaris!”

The base Camry might be boring but it’s also available in SE models, even with a manual, which are lively to drive, and XLE models, if you like something more luxurious at a pretty reasonable price. For technical whiz-bang, available in a hybrid (I just discovered one of our friends bought one and the reaasons cited had nothing to do with saving the planet; quiet and fuel economy were the first two things mentioned). The Malibu LSs and LTs are, at the very least, equally boring.

The Cobalt, similarly, is as boring as the Corolla but the Corolla is a superior car. Unless you order the Cobalt SS. Toyota offered the Corolla XRS (?was that not the designation?) with a much more powerful engine than standard. They dropped it… I can only presume because of low sales. The Cobalt SS may sell better because it gets pushed in the sales channel and a domestic car has more appeal to the target market (I’m not going to actually say “appeals to rednecks” but y’all are free to think it, if you are so inclined).

The Toyota brand, what does it stand for? If it’s quality, practical transportation (i.e., Chevrolet from Japan), boring isn’t a problem.

Fun to drive won’t hurt but Toyota’s current “fun to drive” levels certainly aren’t hurting sales. If engineering more “fun to drive” into the cars diverts resources from packaging, reliability, comfort, convenience, fuel economy and safety, it’s probably not a real good thing for Toyota.

I actually own a base Sienna. It’s fun to drive, but in a very particular way: you can enjoy driving even while you’re having to drive around a number of young children. The ride is good, the driving manners are impeccable for a vehicle that large, and the ergonomics are such that you can operate most (all?) of the major controls while more distracted than you’d be in, say, a sports sedan. I looked at other minivans, and aside from the Caravan**, they all compromised the “minivan driving experience” somewhat.

I think what he’s talking about is bringing Toyota’s game up a little in terms of the whole-car experience. They make a good product and they’re a safe buy, but they have to do a better job of building cars people want to buy, rather than cars that are the default choice.

** say what you will about the Caravan, it’s a good van. If it was made by a different company, one that I trusted, I’d have bought one.

Say what you want about Toyoda and Toyota. My hat goes off to him for jumping on Toyata’s problem immediately by kicking butt and taking names. Not waiting 30+ years like….

Ditto++. At least they recognize they have a problem and know only they can resolve it.

OldWingGuy, you are correct, GM is doomed against competitors with this mindset, especially since GM’s new government masters are undoubtedly worse than the old masters (if such a thing is actually possible).