Comments on: Killer ABS http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/ The Truth About Cars is dedicated to providing candid, unbiased automobile reviews and the latest in auto industry news. Sun, 22 Nov 2009 04:12:32 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: sparker6 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-3/#comment-55335 sparker6 Tue, 12 Jun 2007 19:06:39 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-55335 it's really interesting that i stumbled upon this.. i just bought a new car but didnt even think about ABS.. when i realized that my car was not equiped with it i kinda freaked. all i hear is how they are safer and will prevent major accidents. now i don't feel so bad they arent in my car. i've been a lot more alert and safe in my car recently. it’s really interesting that i stumbled upon this.. i just bought a new car but didnt even think about ABS.. when i realized that my car was not equiped with it i kinda freaked. all i hear is how they are safer and will prevent major accidents. now i don’t feel so bad they arent in my car. i’ve been a lot more alert and safe in my car recently.

]]> By: rodneystar http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-3/#comment-55123 rodneystar Mon, 11 Jun 2007 20:27:55 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-55123 I hope that what you are getting at in this article is that abs can be unsafe when used incorrectly. i noticed someone asking whether it would be a good idea to remove the abs system from their car and this is a worrying response. The idea is simple, locking your wheels during breaking causes a loss of control and longer braking distances whereas being on the limit of your tyres capabilities but not going past that limit gives you shorter stopping distances while retaining control. The problem is that people use that control in an erratic and panicked way which can cause a collision of some kind. I hope that the author realises that his article could be seen to imply that the very presence of abs in a vehicle is unsafe, and that this is a very very dangerous message to anyone who interprets it in this way and doesnt know any better. The real solution is to learn to use the performance and safety equipment available properly, and to be able to handle a vehicle effectively. while i hear people protesting that 'well everyone isnt a race car driver' i say to them well if we are talking of the subject of safety in a potentially very unsafe environment such as a vehicle travelling at speed, it is really best to make the effort to learn some basic ideas and how to put them into practice. It is certainly a more sensible option than throwing away an extremely effective means of improving both brake effectiveness and control and hoping for the best when the bad time comes just because some people steered themselves into a mess. This is one of those situations when looking at the raw data (even if it is accurate and relevent) without combining it with a bit of common sense is just not the best way to go. I believe that this article in the interest of road safety should be removed. I hope that what you are getting at in this article is that abs can be unsafe when used incorrectly. i noticed someone asking whether it would be a good idea to remove the abs system from their car and this is a worrying response.
The idea is simple, locking your wheels during breaking causes a loss of control and longer braking distances whereas being on the limit of your tyres capabilities but not going past that limit gives you shorter stopping distances while retaining control. The problem is that people use that control in an erratic and panicked way which can cause a collision of some kind.
I hope that the author realises that his article could be seen to imply that the very presence of abs in a vehicle is unsafe, and that this is a very very dangerous message to anyone who interprets it in this way and doesnt know any better.
The real solution is to learn to use the performance and safety equipment available properly, and to be able to handle a vehicle effectively. while i hear people protesting that ‘well everyone isnt a race car driver’ i say to them well if we are talking of the subject of safety in a potentially very unsafe environment such as a vehicle travelling at speed, it is really best to make the effort to learn some basic ideas and how to put them into practice. It is certainly a more sensible option than throwing away an extremely effective means of improving both brake effectiveness and control and hoping for the best when the bad time comes just because some people steered themselves into a mess.
This is one of those situations when looking at the raw data (even if it is accurate and relevent) without combining it with a bit of common sense is just not the best way to go.
I believe that this article in the interest of road safety should be removed.

]]> By: Scott Bain http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-3/#comment-40302 Scott Bain Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:38:34 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-40302 I have found very little said about older vehicals with rear anti-locking braking systems. My 1992 Ford Explorer left me 20 feet off a gravel road when I tried to brake hard during a 'too fast' aproach to a sharp turn in the road. I've used the same manouver in many other vehicals with success but this vehical did not act predictably. The front wheels locked-up way too early and all steering control was gone. The car didn't noticably slow down until I bounced over a snow bank and hit a tree hard enough to shatter the steering box. Afterward I checked the road for black ice but there were only a few patches of hardened snow mixed in with mostly bare hard-packed gravel. Hey I know that I should really have slowed down a bit but this would not have happened if I were driving any vehical without rear-ABS. This engineering feature was designed by Ford's liability attorneys to keep the car from sliding sideways. Remember that a sideways slide on hard pavement was enough to cause the top-heavy SUV to roll-over - even though Ford blamed there tire manufacturer (Firestone) for the problem. Solution: remove Rear-ABS module fuse from the panel and retest braking capacity in a slippery parking lot. Drive slower too;-) I have found very little said about older vehicals with rear anti-locking braking systems. My 1992 Ford Explorer left me 20 feet off a gravel road when I tried to brake hard during a ‘too fast’ aproach to a sharp turn in the road. I’ve used the same manouver in many other vehicals with success but this vehical did not act predictably. The front wheels locked-up way too early and all steering control was gone. The car didn’t noticably slow down until I bounced over a snow bank and hit a tree hard enough to shatter the steering box.
Afterward I checked the road for black ice but there were only a few patches of hardened snow mixed in with mostly bare hard-packed gravel.
Hey I know that I should really have slowed down a bit but this would not have happened if I were driving any vehical without rear-ABS. This engineering feature was designed by Ford’s liability attorneys to keep the car from sliding sideways. Remember that a sideways slide on hard pavement was enough to cause the top-heavy SUV to roll-over – even though Ford blamed there tire manufacturer (Firestone) for the problem.
Solution: remove Rear-ABS module fuse from the panel and retest braking capacity in a slippery parking lot. Drive slower too;-)

]]> By: Stephan Wilkinson http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-3/#comment-27631 Stephan Wilkinson Thu, 28 Dec 2006 03:33:21 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-27631 Why you shouldn't believe anything you read on the Internet: One of the posters on this interminable, inane thread, who professes to be a knowledgeable, experienced engineer, refers to a "sign wave." Is that what you do when you go by the Burma Shave thing on Route 66? Stephan Why you shouldn’t believe anything you read on the Internet: One of the posters on this interminable, inane thread, who professes to be a knowledgeable, experienced engineer, refers to a “sign wave.”

Is that what you do when you go by the Burma Shave thing on Route 66?

Stephan

]]> By: PERTINAX http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-3/#comment-27624 PERTINAX Thu, 28 Dec 2006 02:49:16 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-27624 The truth about ABS AND Traction Control... Devices that allow persons to drive performance vehicles that don't actually KNOW HOW to drive performance vehicles. Thes individuals should be consigned to the little four-cylinder people-pushers they can actually handle... The truth about ABS AND Traction Control…

Devices that allow persons to drive performance vehicles that don’t actually KNOW HOW to drive performance vehicles.

Thes individuals should be consigned to the little four-cylinder people-pushers they can actually handle…

]]> By: Stephan Wilkinson http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-3/#comment-6546 Stephan Wilkinson Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:12:44 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6546 What I said, Terry--without scrolling back to search out the exact wording--was that ABS _can_ lengthen stopping distances. It's well-known and inarguable that ABS lengthens stopping distances on very slippery surfaces. It's been demonstrated both informally and in tests. What I said, Terry–without scrolling back to search out the exact wording–was that ABS _can_ lengthen stopping distances. It’s well-known and inarguable that ABS lengthens stopping distances on very slippery surfaces. It’s been demonstrated both informally and in tests.

]]> By: Terry Parkhurst http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-3/#comment-6537 Terry Parkhurst Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:45:43 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6537 It seems to me that the problem is that not only do most people not know how to drive with ABS, they don't know how to really drive - period. When ABS first was put on police cars, they found that when the officer were in hot pursuit, they would try to modulate the ABS, like the old systems. Of course, as soon as they released the brake pedal, the system started anew. Several officers died until they were shown that the brake pedal should be floored and stayed that way. It was the shuddering that made them think, they needed to release - in part. While I don't doubt that the book Stephan uses to teach ambulance safety says it takes longer to stop with ABS, again my own-seat of the pants experience tells me otherwise. I can still recall being on a ride-and-drive in 1996 with an Infiniti G20 sedan and coming, almost at full chat, around a blind corner; there, traffic was backed up. I hit the brakes and kept on them and the chattering ensued. I also steered a bit, right and left. I stopped about three to five feet from the car in front of me, with the car at a bit of a diagonal. Another time, a BMW M-roadster slipped out from under me on wet pavement, as I upshifted. The tail started to come around on me - big time. I countersteered and kept on the brakes as the ABS kicked in. I stopped, with the passenger side, about a foot away from a Subaru, going in the opposite direction, whose owner had stopped for a light. I believe that any salesperson selling a car with ABS should ask the customer if they have ever experienced that "shudder" under full braking effort. If not, he or she should take 'em out and show 'em how it works. The fact that the salesperson was trying to save their life, would not only be good business practice, but might cinch the sale. It seems to me that the problem is that not only do most people not know how to drive with ABS, they don’t know how to really drive – period. When ABS first was put on police cars, they found that when the officer were in hot pursuit, they would try to modulate the ABS, like the old systems. Of course, as soon as they released the brake pedal, the system started anew. Several officers died until they were shown that the brake pedal should be floored and stayed that way. It was the shuddering that made them think, they needed to release – in part.
While I don’t doubt that the book Stephan uses to teach ambulance safety says it takes longer to stop with ABS, again my own-seat of the pants experience tells me otherwise.
I can still recall being on a ride-and-drive in 1996 with an Infiniti G20 sedan and coming, almost at full chat, around a blind corner; there, traffic was backed up. I hit the brakes and kept on them and the chattering ensued. I also steered a bit, right and left. I stopped about three to five feet from the car in front of me, with the car at a bit of a diagonal.
Another time, a BMW M-roadster slipped out from under me on wet pavement, as I upshifted. The tail started to come around on me – big time. I countersteered and kept on the brakes as the ABS kicked in. I stopped, with the passenger side, about a foot away from a Subaru, going in the opposite direction, whose owner had stopped for a light.
I believe that any salesperson selling a car with ABS should ask the customer if they have ever experienced that “shudder” under full braking effort. If not, he or she should take ‘em out and show ‘em how it works. The fact that the salesperson was trying to save their life, would not only be good business practice, but might cinch the sale.

]]> By: ABS-equipped vehicles: Deadly quiet - auto blog http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6327 ABS-equipped vehicles: Deadly quiet - auto blog Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:23:29 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6327 [...] Anti-lock braking systems have come under some mild scrutiny as of late. Frank Williams, a frequent contributor to The Truth About Cars, recently wrote an article detailing the inherent problems with ABS in passenger vehicles, saying that overall they may do more harm than good and that NHTSA should look into its own findings to address the matter. [...] [...] Anti-lock braking systems have come under some mild scrutiny as of late. Frank Williams, a frequent contributor to The Truth About Cars, recently wrote an article detailing the inherent problems with ABS in passenger vehicles, saying that overall they may do more harm than good and that NHTSA should look into its own findings to address the matter. [...]

]]> By: niky http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6268 niky Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:52:51 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6268 <b>gearhead455: Raises hand, I was a few years ago… Without getting into specifics… Go look at a computer from the mid 90’s and go look at one today, compare the speed of each. Anyway you know the point I’m making. Also the sample rate and resolution of modern wheel speed sensors is leaps and bounds better than the old. They are moving from analog sign wave to high resolution digital.</b> I'm beginning to notice this. My previous daily driver, a circa <b>96-technology</b> Nissan Sentra had ABS so ridiculously over-reactive and crude that I almost rear-ended a taxi cab the first month I drove it. I was about twenty or thirty feet away, and we were at low speeds going over a rough patch of concrete. He suddenly braked because some idiot pulled out in front of him. So we're in traffic, right? Can't turn left, can't turn right... I hit the brakes full-on and the ABS pulses so badly because of the rough surface that I'm an inch off his bumper when I stop. And this is from about 20 mph. I had another Sentra at the same time without ABS, and damn it all to hell if it didn't stop much quicker than the ABS-equipped one, every single time, on smooth concrete, dirt or water. And it had drum brakes and smaller tires, to boot. But my current drive, a <b>2001-tech Mazda/Ford Protege</b> with ABS stops pretty well. On dry surfaces, the brakes lock up under hard breaking and ease off just enough to unlock and come back on again. I've only invoked the crunk-crunk-crunk ABS sound by actually trying to. Even on track, when trail-braking, the ABS doesn't kick in very often, and I've only heard it about three or four times in two years and over 30,000 miles of hard driving. I've test driven a lot of new cars, and one stands out. The new <b>circa-2005</b> Ford Focus has ABS that's so sensitive that it doesn' t even "crunk" anymore. It sounds more like a zipper or machine gun in operation, and it gives some <b>very short</b> stopping distances. While I still have my hate and hang-ups about ABS because of the Nissan, I do believe that the new systems are lightyears away from the crude ABS systems of yesteryear. gearhead455:
Raises hand, I was a few years ago…

Without getting into specifics… Go look at a computer from the mid 90’s and go look at one today, compare the speed of each. Anyway you know the point I’m making.

Also the sample rate and resolution of modern wheel speed sensors is leaps and bounds better than the old. They are moving from analog sign wave to high resolution digital.

I’m beginning to notice this.

My previous daily driver, a circa 96-technology Nissan Sentra had ABS so ridiculously over-reactive and crude that I almost rear-ended a taxi cab the first month I drove it. I was about twenty or thirty feet away, and we were at low speeds going over a rough patch of concrete. He suddenly braked because some idiot pulled out in front of him. So we’re in traffic, right? Can’t turn left, can’t turn right… I hit the brakes full-on and the ABS pulses so badly because of the rough surface that I’m an inch off his bumper when I stop. And this is from about 20 mph.

I had another Sentra at the same time without ABS, and damn it all to hell if it didn’t stop much quicker than the ABS-equipped one, every single time, on smooth concrete, dirt or water. And it had drum brakes and smaller tires, to boot.

But my current drive, a 2001-tech Mazda/Ford Protege with ABS stops pretty well. On dry surfaces, the brakes lock up under hard breaking and ease off just enough to unlock and come back on again. I’ve only invoked the crunk-crunk-crunk ABS sound by actually trying to. Even on track, when trail-braking, the ABS doesn’t kick in very often, and I’ve only heard it about three or four times in two years and over 30,000 miles of hard driving.

I’ve test driven a lot of new cars, and one stands out. The new circa-2005 Ford Focus has ABS that’s so sensitive that it doesn’ t even “crunk” anymore. It sounds more like a zipper or machine gun in operation, and it gives some very short stopping distances.

While I still have my hate and hang-ups about ABS because of the Nissan, I do believe that the new systems are lightyears away from the crude ABS systems of yesteryear.

]]> By: TireGuy http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6244 TireGuy Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:45:14 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6244 QUOTE: <em>Frank Williams: The studies show your chance of rear-ending someone is decreased if you have ABS. BUT, your chance of being rear-ended increases. gearhead455: August 15th, 2006 at 11:15 am I guess I don’t understand. If the chances of rear ending someone goes down with ABS, how can the person that is potentially going to get hit chances go up? How can these figures not be inversely linear? Frank Williams: August 15th, 2006 at 11:22 am A mix of ABS-equipped cars and non-ABS cars on the road mean there’s a chance that the person behind you doesn’t have ABS. If you have ABS, there’s a stastically lower chance you’ll rear-end someone. However, the chance that the person behind you doesn’t have ABS statistically raises the chance you may be rear-ended. (At least that’s what the results of the studies showed.) </em> Sorry Frank, but are you not getting ridiculous? Part of your first arguments was that ABS would increase breaking distance. The statistics you now quote shows exactly the reverse: ABS decreases breaking distance. That is why your chance to hit someone in its backside decreases. At the same time, it may be that people without ABS have then a higher risk to hit your back. But so what??? In this case it is their fault, and their insurance agent will have to pay. At the same time you did not hit anyone and do not pay. Therefore, ABS is clearly increasing your safety (overall, the risks from you hitting someone are higher than being hit in the back). Robert: driving a car needs training. Driving a car is by itself dangerous. Would you like to banish cars for being dangerous overall? Your argument in itself also says that if people are too stupid to use a great safety feature, the manufacturers should just not offer it. How serious are you???? There are so many examples here in the comments that show how ABS increases safety by helping steering in breaking situations, and helping in any slippery situation, that I do not understand how anyone could still not appreciate the safety ABS provides. QUOTE:

Frank Williams:
The studies show your chance of rear-ending someone is decreased if you have ABS. BUT, your chance of being rear-ended increases.

gearhead455:
August 15th, 2006 at 11:15 am
I guess I don’t understand. If the chances of rear ending someone goes down with ABS, how can the person that is potentially going to get hit chances go up? How can these figures not be inversely linear?

Frank Williams:
August 15th, 2006 at 11:22 am
A mix of ABS-equipped cars and non-ABS cars on the road mean there’s a chance that the person behind you doesn’t have ABS. If you have ABS, there’s a stastically lower chance you’ll rear-end someone. However, the chance that the person behind you doesn’t have ABS statistically raises the chance you may be rear-ended. (At least that’s what the results of the studies showed.)

Sorry Frank, but are you not getting ridiculous? Part of your first arguments was that ABS would increase breaking distance. The statistics you now quote shows exactly the reverse: ABS decreases breaking distance. That is why your chance to hit someone in its backside decreases. At the same time, it may be that people without ABS have then a higher risk to hit your back. But so what??? In this case it is their fault, and their insurance agent will have to pay. At the same time you did not hit anyone and do not pay. Therefore, ABS is clearly increasing your safety (overall, the risks from you hitting someone are higher than being hit in the back).

Robert: driving a car needs training. Driving a car is by itself dangerous. Would you like to banish cars for being dangerous overall?
Your argument in itself also says that if people are too stupid to use a great safety feature, the manufacturers should just not offer it. How serious are you????

There are so many examples here in the comments that show how ABS increases safety by helping steering in breaking situations, and helping in any slippery situation, that I do not understand how anyone could still not appreciate the safety ABS provides.

]]> By: Frank Williams http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6134 Frank Williams Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:17:02 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6134 <em>Nino: Are you aware that ABS equipt cars in Formula 1 provided them with a performance ADVANTAGE and only then was it banned?</em> ABS <strong>can</strong> provide an advantage when used under track conditions by experienced professionals. All of the test data support this. It's when you put it in the real world with the average inattentive American driver who probably doesn't even know what ABS stands for that the problems begin. Nino: Are you aware that ABS equipt cars in Formula 1 provided them with a performance ADVANTAGE and only then was it banned?

ABS can provide an advantage when used under track conditions by experienced professionals. All of the test data support this. It’s when you put it in the real world with the average inattentive American driver who probably doesn’t even know what ABS stands for that the problems begin.

]]> By: nino http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6109 nino Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:59:34 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6109 Are you aware that ABS equipt cars in Formula 1 provided them with a performance ADVANTAGE and only then was it banned? In racing, something that is unsafe, doesn't NEED to be banned if it provides NO PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE. That these racing groups ban ABS points to a performance advantage in its use. Are you aware that ABS equipt cars in Formula 1 provided them with a performance ADVANTAGE and only then was it banned?

In racing, something that is unsafe, doesn’t NEED to be banned if it provides NO PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE.

That these racing groups ban ABS points to a performance advantage in its use.

]]> By: Wolven http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6095 Wolven Fri, 18 Aug 2006 01:14:48 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6095 Because ITS UNSAFE! At least in racing they're smart enough to not allow B.S. "safety" features. Ever notice they don't have air bags in them race cars? Because ITS UNSAFE! At least in racing they’re smart enough to not allow B.S. “safety” features. Ever notice they don’t have air bags in them race cars?

]]> By: nino http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6092 nino Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:09:54 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6092 If ABS provides no increased benefit in braking , than why does Formula 1 and the World Rally Championship SPECIFICALLY ban its use? If ABS provides no increased benefit in braking , than why does Formula 1 and the World Rally Championship SPECIFICALLY ban its use?

]]> By: uninformed http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-6091 uninformed Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:32:04 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-6091 I've learned more here about ABS than anywhere else - incredible. I hope you will indulge me a bit - I'm trying to figure out if I can live without ABS on my 2000 Windstar and I'm hearing that I can without too much trouble. The dealer just told me he'd need $775 to replace the module so I told him nevermind. I started surfing the net to see how much trouble I'd be in when braking. Sounds like not much. Since I didn't specifically see where any of you de-activated ABS on your vehicles...I'd appreciate hearing if you have, or if you would... pros and cons of my decision... Thanks for your help! I’ve learned more here about ABS than anywhere else – incredible. I hope you will indulge me a bit – I’m trying to figure out if I can live without ABS on my 2000 Windstar and I’m hearing that I can without too much trouble. The dealer just told me he’d need $775 to replace the module so I told him nevermind. I started surfing the net to see how much trouble I’d be in when braking. Sounds like not much. Since I didn’t specifically see where any of you de-activated ABS on your vehicles…I’d appreciate hearing if you have, or if you would… pros and cons of my decision… Thanks for your help!

]]> By: Wolven http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5827 Wolven Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:21:52 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5827 Great Article Frank! Kudos once again to TTAC for bravely telling the unpopular truth. To those that want to call this "Headline Whore" type reporting... obviously, you're just opposed to the truth getting published. PLEASE, don't let them initmidate\influence you Robert!!! It's truly amazing how many people simply continue to argue that ABS is "safer" IN SPITE OF THE FACTS! The herd mentality of many Americans never fails to astound me... I noticed the lack of any current info on this topic when I researched it myself about a year ago. I wonder if the lack of current data has anything to do with the fact that none of the groups (government, insurance, safety "experts", auto companies, etc.) that jumped on the ABS "safety" bandwagon want to hear\sponsor any more efidence that they were\are wrong. Perhaps a fear of lawsuits related to deaths due to ABS? Great Article Frank! Kudos once again to TTAC for bravely telling the unpopular truth. To those that want to call this “Headline Whore” type reporting… obviously, you’re just opposed to the truth getting published. PLEASE, don’t let them initmidate\influence you Robert!!!

It’s truly amazing how many people simply continue to argue that ABS is “safer” IN SPITE OF THE FACTS! The herd mentality of many Americans never fails to astound me…

I noticed the lack of any current info on this topic when I researched it myself about a year ago. I wonder if the lack of current data has anything to do with the fact that none of the groups (government, insurance, safety “experts”, auto companies, etc.) that jumped on the ABS “safety” bandwagon want to hear\sponsor any more efidence that they were\are wrong. Perhaps a fear of lawsuits related to deaths due to ABS?

]]> By: Michal http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5813 Michal Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:17:49 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5813 So research has found that drivers in ABS equipped vehicles drive more aggressively and take more risks, increasing injuries. By that logic we should remove airbags from cars as they make drivers think crashing is ok as they'll fall into a soft comfy pillow on impact. Remove seatbelts too! Now there's something that makes people feel safer, and according to the logic of the article increases accidents. Those crumple zones and modern construction techniques are a pest too. A recent Australian study found SUV drivers drive more aggressively than their sedan counterparts. So research has found that drivers in ABS equipped vehicles drive more aggressively and take more risks, increasing injuries. By that logic we should remove airbags from cars as they make drivers think crashing is ok as they’ll fall into a soft comfy pillow on impact. Remove seatbelts too! Now there’s something that makes people feel safer, and according to the logic of the article increases accidents. Those crumple zones and modern construction techniques are a pest too. A recent Australian study found SUV drivers drive more aggressively than their sedan counterparts.

]]> By: David Holzman http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5771 David Holzman Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:03:21 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5771 Ret (off topic), It's you against the entire scientific community here. There is a consensus among all reputable scientists that it's happening, and only Lindzen is not worried. ret wrote: >>I hate to go off topic, but I can’t let this one by. There’s plenty of reason to question how much Global Warming may occur, how much human activity may contribute, whether it would necessarily be a bad thing, AND whether or not we even know for certain that it’s occurring. Look at the real data. From somewhere like GISS or even out of the UNIPCC data and you’ll see that the measured warming is statistically insignificant. It’s smaller than the margin of error we have in calculating an average surface temperature. I’m not saying it’s NOT happening or that we shouldn’t be studying it. I’m saying that we’re about 50 years away from having sufficient expertise and data to definitively say ANYTHING about climate change. Ret (off topic),

It’s you against the entire scientific community here. There is a consensus among all reputable scientists that it’s happening, and only Lindzen is not worried.

ret wrote:
>>I hate to go off topic, but I can’t let this one by. There’s plenty of reason to question how much Global Warming may occur, how much human activity may contribute, whether it would necessarily be a bad thing, AND whether or not we even know for certain that it’s occurring.

Look at the real data. From somewhere like GISS or even out of the UNIPCC data and you’ll see that the measured warming is statistically insignificant. It’s smaller than the margin of error we have in calculating an average surface temperature.

I’m not saying it’s NOT happening or that we shouldn’t be studying it. I’m saying that we’re about 50 years away from having sufficient expertise and data to definitively say ANYTHING about climate change.

]]> By: Stephan Wilkinson http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5754 Stephan Wilkinson Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:51:29 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5754 ret, e-mail me at stephwilkinson@earthlink.net and we can talk Serottas. ret, e-mail me at stephwilkinson@earthlink.net and we can talk Serottas.

]]> By: ret http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5747 ret Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:29:34 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5747 SW - Pointless? Maybe. Waste of time? Very probably. But the alternative is (yes, I know you're not the one doing this) to argue <i>against</i> technology that appears to only be more dangerous to individual drivers while significantly reducing multi-car wrecks and collisions with pedestrians and cyclists? I must have missed something. BTW - I read your PopSci article on Serotta bikes. I'm in the market. Which model did your daughter get? SW -

Pointless? Maybe.

Waste of time? Very probably.

But the alternative is (yes, I know you’re not the one doing this) to argue against technology that appears to only be more dangerous to individual drivers while significantly reducing multi-car wrecks and collisions with pedestrians and cyclists?

I must have missed something.

BTW – I read your PopSci article on Serotta bikes. I’m in the market. Which model did your daughter get?

]]> By: MotorFull en Español » ¿Sube índice de volcaduras por el ABS? http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5738 MotorFull en Español » ¿Sube índice de volcaduras por el ABS? Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:50:25 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5738 [...] The Truth About Cars) Enlace Permanente | Enviar por email a un amigo Más anotaciones de: Otros:Actualidad [...] [...] The Truth About Cars) Enlace Permanente | Enviar por email a un amigo Más anotaciones de: Otros:Actualidad [...]

]]> By: Stephan Wilkinson http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5732 Stephan Wilkinson Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:13:46 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5732 Calling for increased driver training is pointless and a waste of time. It would have to be legislated, and any legislator declaring themselves in favor of it would promptly be voted out of office. There are many things people "should" be--smarter, politer, thinner, more conservationist, better drivers--but the chances of any of that happening are...uh, is there a number less than nil? Calling for increased driver training is pointless and a waste of time. It would have to be legislated, and any legislator declaring themselves in favor of it would promptly be voted out of office. There are many things people “should” be–smarter, politer, thinner, more conservationist, better drivers–but the chances of any of that happening are…uh, is there a number less than nil?

]]> By: ret http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5731 ret Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:59:44 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5731 "And the evidence that the planet is heating is overwhelming. The Greenland ice cap is melting. Glaciers are shrinking all over the globe. Spring comes to Alaska about a week earlier than it did several decades ago. The claims to the contrary are all coming from people with axes to grind. In the scientific community, only one reputable scientist is questioning whether global heating will be a problem (Richard Lindzen, MIT). But he is not questioning that it is occurring." I hate to go off topic, but I can't let this one by. There's plenty of reason to question how much Global Warming may occur, how much human activity may contribute, whether it would necessarily be a bad thing, AND whether or not we even know for certain that it's occurring. Look at the real data. From somewhere like GISS or even out of the UNIPCC data and you'll see that the measured warming is statistically insignificant. It's smaller than the margin of error we have in calculating an average surface temperature. I'm not saying it's NOT happening or that we shouldn't be studying it. I'm saying that we're about 50 years away from having sufficient expertise and data to definitively say ANYTHING about climate change. [/off topic] “And the evidence that the planet is heating is overwhelming. The Greenland ice cap is melting. Glaciers are shrinking all over the globe. Spring comes to Alaska about a week earlier than it did several decades ago. The claims to the contrary are all coming from people with axes to grind. In the scientific community, only one reputable scientist is questioning whether global heating will be a problem (Richard Lindzen, MIT). But he is not questioning that it is occurring.”

I hate to go off topic, but I can’t let this one by. There’s plenty of reason to question how much Global Warming may occur, how much human activity may contribute, whether it would necessarily be a bad thing, AND whether or not we even know for certain that it’s occurring.

Look at the real data. From somewhere like GISS or even out of the UNIPCC data and you’ll see that the measured warming is statistically insignificant. It’s smaller than the margin of error we have in calculating an average surface temperature.

I’m not saying it’s NOT happening or that we shouldn’t be studying it. I’m saying that we’re about 50 years away from having sufficient expertise and data to definitively say ANYTHING about climate change.

[/off topic]

]]> By: Dave Ruddell http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5730 Dave Ruddell Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:51:26 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5730 <em>I’d be willing to wager that the average driver has NEVER felt ABS pulsing underfoot.</em> I wouldn't say that's true for people who live where it snows; ABS activation is not uncommon after a decent snowfall, esp. if you live on a street that doesn't get plowed for a while. Of course, the first time I felt that pulse it scared the crap out of me. I’d be willing to wager that the average driver has NEVER felt ABS pulsing underfoot.

I wouldn’t say that’s true for people who live where it snows; ABS activation is not uncommon after a decent snowfall, esp. if you live on a street that doesn’t get plowed for a while. Of course, the first time I felt that pulse it scared the crap out of me.

]]> By: ret http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/killer-abs-abs-braking-increases-rollover-risk-by-51/comment-page-2/#comment-5729 ret Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:49:12 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2006#comment-5729 <quote>"A safety system that works for well-trained drivers (TTAC readers) should not be deployed in a vehicle used by poorly-trained drivers when that system puts those drivers in increased danger– especially when the poorly trained drivers are the majority."</quote> RF - I agree with this but, again, my prescription would be to improve the training of drivers. These data shouldn't make us "dumb down" our cars, they should make us irate that driver education is such a joke! Why is ABS dangerous but - to use my example from above again - the 400hp engine is a Corvette is not? The average driver cannot correctly use the full potential of either one. “A safety system that works for well-trained drivers (TTAC readers) should not be deployed in a vehicle used by poorly-trained drivers when that system puts those drivers in increased danger– especially when the poorly trained drivers are the majority.”

RF -

I agree with this but, again, my prescription would be to improve the training of drivers. These data shouldn’t make us “dumb down” our cars, they should make us irate that driver education is such a joke!

Why is ABS dangerous but – to use my example from above again – the 400hp engine is a Corvette is not? The average driver cannot correctly use the full potential of either one.

]]>