Motorcycles in the US are toys, not essential needs of daily life and as such, different criteria for judging them will apply.

Where else could I read defenders for, “All things being equal”, (as if it can be between the Detroit 2.8 and the other major players from the Asian rim), that most Americans would rather defy belief, urban survival skills and experience, and would buy something from the 2.8.

I may be an elitist, uninformed, perceptually wrong and some other things referenced here, but the chances of the 2.8 competing with Toyota, Honda and Nissan in my life time is not realistic. The 2.8 have had at least 25 years and
I doubt they will turn it around in the next 25, plus I probably will not be around.

Before I would buy another 2.8 product that is not a used PU truck, I want an explanation for the leaky water pumps, sprung door hinges, out of round Firestones, falling off body pieces, mystery squeaks and rattles, cracking windshields, chassis water leaks and a few more pages worth I could list on.

And where else could I read a seriouis sounding report that Camry’s are now a POS and owners are really unhappy. I sure do not hear that in my neighborhood. Must be a lot of elitists, uninformed and historically perceptively incorrect people in my part of the southeast USA.

The phrases “Jewish self-hate” and “American self-hate” are an invention of Jewish and American rightists and are used to describe Jews or Americans who don’t agree with the rightists’ politics.

I don’t hate America or Americans, although I certainly prefer Toyotas to GMs and I’m certainly unhappy with our current foreign policy.

The reasons are simple, my Toyotas put money in my pocket (money which gets invested in the US, as it happens) and our foreign policy is clearly counter-productive. This isn’t self-hate, it’s just awareness of the world around you.

—

thoots,

I’m very much in agreement with you on the current state of the Camry. My b-i-l was happy and proud to loan me his last year and it (an LE) is an excellent car. The 4-cylinder moves it along nicely (five plus luggage), it gets great fuel economy and the interior was very nice.

He bought it because his ‘01 Sienna treated him very well. Six years of abuse from his kids and it still looks new and hasn’t been into the shop once.

If I had to criticize something about it… well… the front end isn’t all that attractive. But it’s similar to many others, so it makes no difference. And the visiblity out the rear is a little restricted but that’s also due to the current style of broadly arched roofline and high rear deck (the only midsize car that really looks a bit different to me is the new Accord – and the Fusion but that’s an older design at this point).

My four Toyotas, ‘99 through ’01’s, fairly high miles at this point, have also treated me very well. Comes time to look for a new car, I’ll be checking Toyota first. They’ve put money in my pocket.

What I don’t understand is why people who claim to prefer their Japanese but “American” as apple pie cars get all hot and bothered by examples like the current Camry, which pretty much suffers from every negative thing people have traditionally said about American cars from it’s cheap plastic interior to spotty workmanship to forgettable styling and uninspiring driving experience.

Well, mainly, it’s because your information is WRONG. Perhaps Camry/Toyota is held to a higher standard, and probably a lot of it is due to venomous hatred towards Camry/Totota by the “reviewers,” but the Camry has received quite a bit of “bad press” that it really doesn’t deserve.

Let’s look at the truth, from the perspective of people who actually BUY the current Camry:

1. Cheap plastic interior? It’s not “cheap” at all. Materials are generally better than anything else on the market. Yes, there’s “more plastic” and less “fake wood-looking plastic trim” than previous generations, but it’s not cheap, crappy, econobox-type stuff. Take your eyes off of the dashboard, and you’ll find seat leather and fabric that is best in the class, switchgear that is best in the class, and ergonomics that are best in the class. Also, there’s far more sense of “design” to the interior as compared to the far-less-adventurous designs of a lot of other competing interiors.

2. Spotty workmanship? Yes, I suppose there have been a few more problems reported than in previous generations, but significant problems are very rare. I don’t think the average Camry owner is reporting anything even remotely resembing “spotty workmanship.”

3. Forgettable styling? Well, that’s better than the Abominable Honda — the really quite ugly new-generation Accord. Others in the segment, like the Sebring, have truly awkward proportions. I think you could say that the Camry has the most “cohesive” styling compared to anything in the segment. Many “new to Camry” buyers are buying Camry BECAUSE of the new-generation styling.

4. Uninspiring driving experience? True, some reviewers (there are some here on TTAC) will curse at anything that doesn’t handle as well as a BMW 3-series, but that’s not what most Camry buyers are actually looking for. You must be reading Car and Driver, which in its last comparison test reamed Camry big-time about handling, though it mentioned how Camry was easy to drive smoothly, was by far the quietest on the road, and was otherwise EXACTLY like the kind of driving experience that its buyers were looking for. Plus, of course, the anti-Camryites generally find some way to never bother testing the Camry SE, which actually HAS some actual handling prowess. Finally, these folks never seem to mention how the Camry’s V6 engine provides plenty of power, if that’s what floats your boat.

And so on. Get in a room full of Camry owners, and you might find mentions of a few minor issues, but few reports of real problems, and probably something like a 99% satisfaction with their vehicles. Yes, there has been negative “press.” Meanwhile, more people continue to buy them and are satisfied with their cars than any other car in the US.

Along the same vein, there was the oft-repeated mention that “If you put a Cobalt on a Toyota lot, it’d sell as well as Corolla,” or something close to that.

BS.

People don’t buy Toyotas because they are STUPID and clueless. No, those people are buying Cobalts. People who buy Toyotas have had trouble-free experiences with previous Toyotas. They read information like Consumer Reports reliability records. They test-drive new vehicles before they buy them, and easily comprehend how the Cobalt pales compared to the much-more-refined Corolla. And so on.

Bottom line, these viewpoints are essentially based upon opinions that the domestics are just as refined and reliable as the “import brands” are. All I can tell you is that the people who buy the import brands aren’t buying it. And vehicle sales are easily showing that the public at large isn’t buying the domestic equivalents to the import brand cars.

What makes a film an American film? Is it location? No, otherwise The Last Samurai would be a Japanese film. Is it the director? No, otherwise Lord of the Rings would be a Kiwi film. Is it the actors? No, otherwise Gladiator would be an Australian film.

What makes an American film an American film? Follow the money. American films go through Hollywood and are funded by American corporations. Even though Saw was written and directed by Aussies, and starred a British actor it went through Lions Gates and so it was an American film.

What makes an American car an American car? It’s not about where the car is made or even necessarily where it’s designed. Follow the money. The money from American cars goes through Detroit, not Japan.

This isn’t a perception, but a fact based on side-by-side comparisons of vehicles bought among family members.

If I was to buy American, I would buy it ex rental and save myself a ton of cash or buy it 5 years old with some pocket change and expect things to go wrong.

Foreign brand names are a great fashion statement across a broad section of products – my Saeco coffee maker makes me feel much more international than Mr. Coffee.

And its not just American elitists – when we would visit family in India, they woudl request certain items (clothes, shoes, bar soap etc) that would have to say ‘made in Canada’ or ‘made in USA’ on the label. It will make them seem superior amongst thier peers. Human nature, maybe.

It is now stylish to think for yourself, and to analyze the world around you with some semblance of objectivity, instead of blind-obedience tribalism in support of mediocre American cars or politicians and denouncing any criticism as heresy.

I’m not small, but not huge either (5′11″ 200, but get down to 180 from time to time)

My last car purchase was a beater. It was a dodge. It has been reliable, but it is NO LONGER MADE (Neon). In the last 40k miles (120-160k), I have averaged just under $0.10/mile for repair/maint. It’s reliable, it’s cheap, and I pulled 38mpg+ going 60mph coming from the Indy 500. Why was this discontinued? The 3 speed transmission is horrendous, but outside of that it gets the job done.

The car before this (my first “new car”) I wanted a rally 4wd car with sub 0-60 of 5 seconds and AWD.

The only players I could find were……..Subaru & Mitsubishi – Both japanese. At least the WRX’s (IIRC) are made in Indiana. I got the STi.

I have the Subaru (now 3.5 years old at ~ 7k miles/year) with 0 problems outside of a valve spring getting stuck (fixed under warranty @ 12k miles, no problems since).

My next car will be a (sub)compact 30′ish mpg city, 40ish mpg highway diesel or gas car with a 5 speed manual option for sub 15k. What is available…

According to Fueleconomy.gov, 30mpg+:

Civic Hybrid
Toyota Yaris
Mini cooper
Mini clubman
Toyota Corolla
Honda Fit

In other words – NOT.ONE.AMERICAN.CAR.

If I go down to “25mpg mixed” I now have the choices of:

Chevy Cobalt
Pontiac G5
Ford Focus
Chevy Aveo

In other words, American choices are only 1/3 of the total choices at 25mpg average mixed.

Motorcycles are in the same boat. When I bought my first bike, I wanted something that revved to at least 13-15krpm that was sporty, and under $10k. I bought a gsx-r 600.

The common choices are:
Kawasaki
Suzuki
Honda
Yamaha

Where are the American choices? BUELL? I can’t name one person out of the 20 people I know who ride who has one.

American car companies can easily earn my business – MAKE SOMETHING RELIABLE & CHEAP. I don’t need an interior, I need reliability and cheapness, with preferably a manual option. Get me close to 30mpg mixed. Give me some real options besides the “cheapest car in America”. I don’t need an mp3 player. I don’t need over sized cup holders. I don’t need heated bun warmers. I don’t need backup cameras, I don’t need bluetooth, xm radio or a built in toaster, steering wheel volume controls, gps, keyless entry, power windows or power mirrors.

Give me front & side airbags & 30mpg and a 5 star crash safety rating with good reliability (or how bout an 5 year no hassle warranty to beat the imports?) and you have a sale.

It’s simple. Why don’t the big 2.8 get it?

I don’t think any Japanese car company will ever have a foriegn CEO. Especially Nissan.

Or Mazda. Or Mitsubishi, for that matter…..

Let’s face it, Toyota and Honda will probably choose another Japanese CEO next time, but is that a bad thing?

Toyota and Honda are storming ahead with their Japanese idealogies. Maybe there’s something in it….?

That wasn’t Jay Leno’s point at all. He is actually in agreement with much of what you can read on this website. His message is that if Detroit wants to sell more cars, they need to improve them.

American auto products don’t get a fair shake and that is reality.

The opposite is true. You have a certain core group of Americans that willingly buy inferior Detroit products simply because they are made in Detroit.

Let’s face facts — if the Cobalt was sold by Toyota, it would probably sell in half of its numbers because buyers wanting a better car would buy something else. GM only sells what it does because the bowtie still gets support from the heartland.

Detroit gets a pass because it’s Detroit. Within the US, it gets the handicapped parking space of the US car market. This has allowed them to build inferior products, because they know that they can build second-rate stuff and still sell it to some portion of Americans, no matter what.

Nobody in the US is buying Hondas because they love the Japanese people. Yet some buy “American” only because it’s “American,” no matter how bad it gets. Those compromises don’t get made for anybody else.

Still to the point, why am I being guilted into having to buy American when the American car companies are allowed to buy foreign? I mean, haven’t we read here how US car companies are forcing their suppliers to offshore their operations, costing American jobs in the process? Haven’t we read where US car companies are planning to import all their cars from other countries and reduce their US manufacturing capabilities costing American jobs? Is this what we REALLY NEED TO SUPPORT; a business model that is based on eliminating American jobs?

Those that cite the transplants that manufacture in America as foreign companies because “all” the money goes back to Japan (or Korea, Or Germany, etc.), need to really crunch the numbers. Transplants, pay taxes (although, many of them are subsidized locally) to various US government agencies, they are responsible for spending large sums of money toward plant construction and ongoing infrastructure improvements, and employ AMERICANS in their operations. Also, cotrary to some opinions, there are transplant plants which have union employment.

My question would then be; should we support companies that see American workers as the problem with their inability to make a competitive product or a profit, or should we support companies that are eager to locate here using American labor to make world class products that the majority of us can afford?

I don’t think any Japanese car company will ever have a foriegn CEO. Especially Nissan.

The affluent folks will buy Mercs, RRs, Bentleys inorder to separate the men from the boyz.

American elites have disparaged America and Americans as crude, vulgar and not nearly as cool as Europe (or Asia, or India, depending on the era) since the 1800s.

Just as a measurable number of Jews exhibit Jewish self-hate, perhaps up to 25% of Americans are self-hating Americans.

They buy European appliances and Japanese cars and think that if a corporation is headquartered east of the Atlantic or west of the Pacific then, by Gaia it must be more moral than crass American capitalists.

What’s interesting is how American elites ignore how racist and sexist Japan is. American companies will hire a foreign CEO. Will a geijin ever be CEO of Toyota?

I worked for DuPont for 21 years and while HR was oh so politically correct and Refinish had to stop making calenders with girls in bikinis for collision shops because the women chemists complained (even though they were a very successful marketing tool), it was interesting the way the company would accommodate Japanese racism and sexism. The company was careful to not send women to negotiate with Japanese customers. Also, the only way DuPont could get a crack at business from the Japanese companies was to enter into a JV with a Japanese company, in this case Kansei Paint. DuPont had more advanced technology, but Kansei was Japanese. Because of the JV there was an office of Kansei engineers and managers on our site. While DuPont had many female chemists, engineers and executives on site, the only female employees of Kansei on our site were secretaries.

It is a case of elitism – they think of themselves as superior to the average American, so they would rather show their disdain for their fellow citizens by purchasing foreign goods.

I see it every day where I work.

So GM deserve a chance or let Charlie Manson join the NRA?

Whoa, are they gonna start making Zeppelins ?

Where I differ with him is with the level of improvement that will be required for sales to increase. He thinks that the products need to be on par. I would argue that they need to be better than the competition, and that parity is not good enough.

Over the last 30 years, Toyota and Honda have built a loyal customer base, while the domestics have made a lot of enemies. As Kixstart notes, it will take a lengthy track record of quality to overcome this, because consumers need a good reason to switch, particularly when it requires switching to products built by companies with bad reputations.

They need superior products and at least a decade of sustained superiority to undo the damage that they have done. That’s how bad it has gotten. Ten or twenty years ago, they could have done less, but now the hole’s pretty deep.