i drive a 1994 gmc, well over 300000 on it, runs great, and no rust. other than 1 fuel pump, no major problems..just the regular tires and brakes..etc.
i dont see the crappy. ???”

Know what you mean, know what you mean, say no more, say no more, nudge, nudge, wink, wink…I don’t see the crappy GMs either…unless I put my glasses on…

To some of the others here, GM is the proverbial ‘dead parrot’…remember?:”It’s not dead, it’s sleeping.”

So you are apparently claiming that people who are ignorant of vehicle maintenance are more likely to buy domestics. Because if you are correct, that’s what the data would suggest.

This would bolster the reasons to buy a transplant. If people don’t know much about auto repair, they are better off buying vehicles that require fewer repairs. Most of those don’t come from Detroit, according to you.

Getting imperical evidence of actual automotive reliability is incredibly difficult…

Are there any surveys that use a significant amount of the population, under controlled circumstances, several people each with a given kind of car, who ARE properly versed in basic car care, and will report results with basic knowledge and intelligence? If so, that would be your accurate survey.

Until then, I’ll take the vast array of mechanics, technicians, enthusiasts and parts people who see the reliability for what it is. “Fords warp rotors really bad all the time” doesn’t count when the guy hasn’t changed his brake pads in three years.

That’s a strawman argument. The discontent is due largely to many bad experiences, both first- and second-hand, plus quantitative data that supports the hesitance, cynicism and avoidance.

It is simply not possible to look at the data objectively and believe that the domestics are as trustworthy. Surveys such as Consumer Reports, which are based upon hundreds of thousands of responses each year, make it clear that they aren’t equal.

If anything, the data shows that people are slow to respond to the information available to them. If consumers were as data driven as they should be, they would have abandoned most of the domestics 25 years ago, instead of being so slow to react.

It can take awhile for consumers to change, but when they do, they are difficult to win back. The process of losing them was time consuming, and so will be the process of winning them back. Expecting consumers to spend a good deal of effort avoiding 90% of the product line is not realistic.

tigeraid: “the original poster here said he still drove nothing but GMs his whole life–as a tech, he knew which cars were good and reliable, and which were not, and drove what he knew worked. And got dirt-cheap parts while he was at it.”

If we all worked for Mr. GoodWrench, then I guess we’d all be able to pick out the gems and we’d all be able to fix them ourselves, on the weekends in a nice, dry shop, and we’d all get dirt-cheap parts to do it, too.

I work in IT. I have performed various repairs on my cars, over the years (alternators, radiators, some other easy stuff). But I don’t enjoy it and I don’t want to do it.

I have no idea how to fix an intake manifold. I don’t particularly want to know how to fix an intake manifold. In fact, if I worked in GM’s IT department, I’d still probably have no idea how to fix an intake manifold. Although, I might be able to look at parts consumption and warranty service rates and determine which cars were good and which were trouble.

Hey, GM could just publish those numbers. Then we’d all know. Hmmmm… I wonder why GM doesn’t do that?

When it comes to intake manifolds, I just don’t want the part to fail. Come to think of it, I just want to turn the key and go. I don’t want to think about the parts at all.

So my workaround to compensate for my inability and disinclination to swiftly and accurately repair all kinds of problems in GM cars is to buy other brands of cars that don’t seem to need repairs very often. So far, with the 4 currently in my driveway, none have been necessary at an average age of 9 model years. I strongly suspect others have seized on a similar strategy.

For some strange reason, this is not working to GM’s advantage.

That goes for Honda, Toyota, GM, Ford, everyone. To swear off one brand because of a bad experience is simple ignorance. Or at least close-mindedness.

The absolute, most reliable, toughest, longest-lasting, most badass car I’ve owned since I started driving was my ‘94 Caprice 9C1 (police package)… I bought it at 320,000 km and solid it at 465,000 km. During that three year period it saw one opti-spark distributor (of course), and one water pump. That’s it. Period.

The absolute, most unreliable, worst piece of crap I’ve ever owned was a 1988 Honda Accord. Everything broke on it. Everything. Twice.

Does this mean I think GM only builds gold, and Honda only builds crap? Of course not.

There’s a difference between quality and reliability–the two are not related. I will agree with anyone whole-heartedly that GM’s build quality from about 1974 through 1994ish was absolute trash–but reliable? Very, actually.

My ‘96 Cavalier is a complete piece of crap–as most winter beaters should be. Its job is to get me to and from work during winter months while my Roadmaster Estate sits under a tarp. The Cavalier has rattles and squeeks everywhere, the door panels are falling off, there’s several lights lit on the dash that mean nothing, and it rides like a chuckwagon. But you know what? Other than a leaky power steering line and a leaky fuel injector, I haven’t had to put a DIME into it. Mechanically, the 2.2 L and 3 spd auto are dead reliable. Boring and awful, but reliable.

My second-most reliable vehicle was an ‘89 Dodge Caravan cargo that saw duty most of its life as a painter’s van. When I bought it for $150, it had over 450,000 km on it, and when I finally junked it, it was near 600,000 km. And I only junked it because it finally started burning out 2nd gear when the tranny warmed up. It served me faithfully.

My ‘91 B13 Nissan Sentra was also awesome, and dead reliable, and fun to drive.

My dad’s 1980 GMC 3/4 ton van, with a 350, which towed our racecar and a back full of tools for most of its life, was finally retired after an accident with 550,000 km on it, and he changed the oil once a year. The only thing that ever went wrong with it was a rear main seal leak (which all smallblocks have…)

As far as one of the first commenters mentioned yes, owning a Chevy means dirt-cheap parts, and that IS important to me, as a guy who does all his own work. I’m a parts counter clerk–no matter how many close-minded importers want to THINK that some Honda and Toyota parts are “affordable” these days, they really aren’t.

These are only my personal driving experiences, never mind the hundreds of cars I’ve repaired or upgraded in the last 14 years. For every piece of crap Ford/Dodge/GM with reliability and quality problems, I can name you one Honda/Nissan/VW/Toyota with their own problems. For every Ford/Dodge/GM you name that you had a bad experience with, I can name TEN that ran forever without the slightest problem.

People need to get over this mindless bashing crap. Bash GM/Ford/Chrysler for running their businesses into the ground thanks to piss-poor management and unyielding unions, not their overall products. EVERY manufacturer makes good cars and bad cars.

Which is why, btw, the original poster here said he still drove nothing but GMs his whole life–as a tech, he knew which cars were good and reliable, and which were not, and drove what he knew worked. And got dirt-cheap parts while he was at it.

Unfortunately, neither have many domestic plants located in the Midwest, judging by the quality of their products.

Ronnie Schreiber: When consumers act irrationally (and the advertising industry is all about getting people to make emotional rather than rational decisions), yeah, they are at fault. If I let my experience from 30 years ago color my perception of reality today, that may be normal human behavior, but it’s hardly rational.

Sorry, but many of the people I talk to who were burned by GM cars weren’t burned 30 years ago, but within the last 10 years.

I remember being interested in an Oldsmobile Intrigue when it debuted. A friend bought one of the first ones in the area in the summer of 1997. We went out to look at it in the company parking lot…and discovered that she couldn’t even get the car started because of a problem with the car alarm system. The ownership experience went downhill from there…

My dad’s 2006 Cadillac STS has gone in for repairs of the climate control panel three times. The dealer refuses to just replace it and instead has opted to try and “troubleshoot” it. My dad had to finally get ugly for them to replace the panel. This is how GM treats a good, loyal customer buying one of their premium products?

This car represents the 10th new Cadillac my dad has gotten over the last 18 years. Out of all these cars, 6 have had absolutely no warranty issues. That still makes 4 premium priced cars that have had problems inside the warranty period.

My dad still likes these cars and won’t change, although he recently drove an Acura TL that seemed to impress him.

On a side note:

The “courtesy car” he was given while his STS was in for service was a Chevy Cobalt. You can imagine the impression that made.

And the CR data comes from owners like it does from TD.

Fail to see your point. ALL the surveys indicate that GM’s average is below the industries and far below Toyota and Honda.

They are not perfect, but they are quantitatively, demonstrably better.

Regards,

Bunter

Anybody who works for GM will be the first to tell you to buy a Honda. Their cars are so awful they deserve to get tossed onto the ash heap of history as a lesson for all time.

I’m no defender of VW (had 2 Rabbits in the 70s that were lousy cars), but I think you’re off-base with respect to CR consistently recommending them in the 90s.

VWs generally tested out very well in CR’s regimen, but their reliability on the CR surveys was borderline throughout the 90s as I recall. Therefore, CR would recommend only specific models with specific engines that earned an “average” reliability score or better. If the reliability sunk to worse than average, then the car came off the “recommended” list.

General Motors was responding to a market segment demand for big block engines which…Forced induction was too expensive to be an option.

Holy crap dude, when did I say I wanted you to drive a V6? fundamentalist Muslim? Resepctfully kind sir, please feel free to discuss your own religious issues but do not put words in my mouth!

My point, which was completely missed by you, was that the big blocks were great (and if GM could make money on all 3 of them them much the better!) but there wasn’t much difference between them, just like there isn’t much difference between a Camry and a Malibu today, it’s just that people seem to be ingrained for whatever reason to beleive that there is some compelling reason to purchase on over the other. Isn’t that what this whole thread seems to be about?

Believe me I would be happy with a GSX Stage 1 or an LS6 Chevelle SS either way is just fine with me!!

Now that’s funny! Hogwash to what? Selling the cars is the easy part. Dealing with crappy cars after the sale is what everyone is talking about. You’re a funny guy!!

The entire VW line during the 1990’s was absolutely terrible. We’re talking ‘Kia’ league. The overwhelming majority of the ones I see at the sales have any combination of bad trannies, bad engines (especially the 1.8T and VR6), missing exterior and interior door handles, screwed up electronics, and melting engine plastics that make check engine lights standard equipment.

All the while CR saw fit to recommend them. No offense, but CR has experienced a very rough road when it came to ascertaining the long-term reliability of automobiles.

If you want to see results that matter, I would suggest web sites that actually give qualitative feedback from the actual owners as well as Mike Karesh’s TrueDelta site… which is becoming more statistically valuable by the day.

Oh, every automaker (Toyota & Honda included) under-report their failure rates. It’s pretty much been a standard practice in the industry for as long as I can remember.

Ronnie Schreiber: You’re analogy of comparing a vacuum cleaner and a vehicle are flawed. A vacuum cleaner costs only $100 – $300, depending on model, etc. Obviously a car’s more expensive, and as pointed out in a previous post, is the next largest purchase behind a house that most people will make. A crappy vacuum is merely an annoyance. A crappy/unsafe car can kill someone, or at the very least thoroughly screw-up their week. Just the inconvenience factor alone can cause headaches with trying to find a ride to and from work, etc. That’s assuming the crappy car didn’t break down on the way TO work and now you’re facing disciplinary measures for being late/absent. And being stranded out in the middle of the desert with a car that broke down doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in buying another of the same. I won’t even mention the money to fix the POS involved, nor potential lost wages from missing work, etc.

So sure, 30 years later, I’m going to remember the sense of betrayal and lost trust at being taken for a sucker by GM or any car company that treats me that way. The vacuum? Maybe 30 days, then I get a different one.

****

I own 2 Toyotas, an ‘05 and an ‘06 (Toyota’s earned my business, one car at a time. GM has squandered my business, one POS at a time). The dealership is a Toyota/Chevy/Caddy store. Most of the Toyotas that are in line for the service department are for preventive maintenance – for owners that don’t like getting their hands dirty changing their own oil, etc. Most of the GM vehicles I see in line are for warranty/repair issues. I don’t have any data to back that up – just my empirical observations. The service and parts department at this dealership always seems slightly impatient and contemptuous towards the customers, especially towards the women, the elderly, and the Navajos (the town is a rez border town). They’re not outright rude – it’s a subtle thing, but still there nonetheless. I don’t get it – being nice to the customer doesn’t cost anything. A smile, some common courtesy, and patience is free. Yet being an a##hole to the customer can cost dearly.

Clearly this mostly GM dealership hasn’t “gotten” it yet. I’m sure Toyota’s carrying their new car business for now.

Oldsmobile diesel

5.7 L LF9 – worst ever, piston failures, cylinder heads failed. After two engine rebuilds in one year car was returned to the dealer. Last American car I have purchased.

8 years later I bought a brand new 1998 Cavalier Z24, which was a gem of a ride for the first few thousand miles. Then it was the Buick Century all over again.

It doesn’t take much to sour your opinion. I will never risk another dollar on GM as long as I live. The same is starting to go for Chrysler; I’m on my 3rd Jeep Wrangler, and the busted U-joints and suspension failures are pissing me off. My next car will be German.

Look at ALL of the data. From top to bottom.
Yes they have some reliable vehicles. Some.
Go to JDP VDS or CR or True Delta. GM shows some good vehicles in each.
Most of their models run mediocre to below average in each survey.
Some are among the worst in the industry regardless of which survey you look at.
In each survey GM’s average is below the industries.
Coincidense? Conspirecy? Give Ollie Stone a call.

Honda and Toyota rarely put a vehicle below the average in any survey.

Honda transmissions? Yes, they had problems with some V6 models, the current CR data indicates that has been delt with. They actually fix things. What an idea.

Toyota sludge?
Actual complaints seem to be a few hunderd (out of 3-4 million potential units). Less than one in 10k. 0.01%. Ya’, I’d worry about that one.
Yawn.

Toyota Camry and Tundra launches? Funny, isn’t it, how people who dismiss CR scores about GM vehicles accept them at face value if they hit a Toyota.
Well, accept this at face value then-the latest CR data shows they got the mess cleaned up. Fast.

The same data set (if valid for Toyota problems…) shows GM let’s problems run for a decade.

Ford has improved their scores lately. A lot.
So has Hyundia. A lot.

The trend line on GM reliability may actually be losing ground on the industry average.

GM is still trying to , IMHO, figure out what the minimum amount of reliability that the public will accept is.

The only acceptable answer is to shoot for excellence. GM doesn’t get this.

And frankly that isn’t very patriotic.

GM is found death the old-fashioned way…they’ve earned it.

Quit whining and get a Ford if you need to wave a flag at people.

Just some thoughts.

Bunter

I see you’ve joined the Phil Ressler brigade.

You quoted me with respect to my Mercury Sable experience by saying, “Then, all hell broke loose, with numerous a/c, suspension, and starter/alternator/water pump failures and leaks.”

Then you responded:

This reminds me of people who buy a new car when the old one starts to “nickle and dime” them, as though the cost of a rebuilt starter is more than a car payment.

All of the examples above, a/c, suspension, and engine ancillaries, are considered wearable parts. That’s why you can get compressors/driers, shocks/struts/ball joints, and rebuilt starters, alternators and water pumps at your local Murray’s Pep Boys or NAPA, and that’s why those aftermarket autoparts companies stock parts for Toyotas and Hondas as well.

Umm…NO! I don’t consider these items “wearable parts” like brake pads, batteries, and tires, at least for cars in the 65K – 85K mile range. You also conveniently omitted my statement about needing transmission replacement at 93K miles.

I spent probably a total of $1,000 on the a/c repairs alone, including a compressor, numerous lines, freon, and the poorly engineered O-rings. Notice I said repairs (plural) because once one item was fixed, another would fail not too long afterward.

I DID buy replacement alternators at Advance Auto due to the cost savings (so I thought), but these turned out to be crap parts and had to be replaced very frequently, racking up labor costs each time, although the part warranty was always honored.

I was SO proud of myself for installing the last aftermarket alternator myself, only to have the battery warning light turn on immediately — turned out yet another alternator was crap. So I finally cried “uncle” and coughed up the $290 for the Ford OEM replacement and had it installed by my favorite local indie shop.

The original water pump gave out while my family and I were on vacation at the beach — there was a terrible grinding sound from the engine, apparently from the bearings tearing themselves up. A service station installed a NAPA replacement, and guess what — that failed too not long afterward. My local shop honored the parts warranty on the pump (they used NAPA parts frequently), but of course not the labor.

Now my former 1980 Volvo 240 makes a nice comparison: I bought the car used with 31K miles in 1982 and sold it 21 years later at about 245K miles. I had the a/c installed by a Volvo dealer in the summer of ‘84 (all lowline 240s of the time came without factory a/c).

I had the system recharged once in 1986 (no leak found) and “topped up” in 1994 or so at work, where we scavenged freon from cars going to salvage. There were no further problems until the summer of 2002, when it no longer blew cold air. An attempt at a recharge at work held only briefly, so it was clear there was now a leak, which I never fixed (car was sold the following June).

I replaced the alternator twice and the water pump once. Never had to touch the starter. Also the presumably original clutch made it to 220K miles. Even one replacement DieHard battery lasted 2 months short of 10 years — 1985-95!

As for replacing the Sable after being “nickle and dimed” as you put it, I only considered it when the transmission went south. However, I wasn’t prepared financially at the time to buy a new car, and I figured with regard to a used car, it was better to stick with the devil I knew.

So I kept the Sable for 10 years and 135K miles. On the day before I sold it, I replaced the headlight switch because a few days before I discovered I had only headlights, but no parking lights or taillights! The switch was partly melted on the backside.

Oh, and on the ‘97 Camry that I had for 111K miles, I never touched the starter, alternator, a/c, struts, tie rod ends, water pump, or transmission (other than changing the antifreeze and ATF). The “wearable” front brake pads made it to 109K miles!

And you note that the 700R4 replaced it in the 90’s… WTF more made up crap… the 700R4 was first used in the early 80’s and it was replaced by 1992…

For the record the 700R4 was a “Chevy” tranny and was bolted behind “Chevy” bell-housing patterns… Most of the 200-4R were universal pattern trannys and were mostly bolted behind 3.8 Olds 307’s and the odd SBC.

And with all the complaining about transmissions that you couldn’t fix (putting 200 parts in a 200-R4 would be your first clue) you missed the POS 7.5″ rear differential that would explode with 4 cylinder torque.

And you also missed the 96/97/98 Northstar Engines that would dissolve their own head gaskets and were “unrepairable” without taking the whole car apart.

GM’s problem was not that they made some dogs… GM’s problem was that they never stood behind their products… They just let the customers hang.

Good point. A doctor that mistreated me 30 years and that I had to consequently fire will never see my business again. He violated an essential trust, and there are too many other, good, doctors out there for me to ever need to go back to that loser.