Comments on: In Praise of: Brand New Old Cars http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/ The Truth About Cars is dedicated to providing candid, unbiased automobile reviews and the latest in auto industry news. Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:42:49 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Logdog http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-104132 Logdog Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:46:27 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-104132 No mention of the Honda Pilot 2008 vs. 2009. I recently read there is an overstocked inventory (on TTAC) of Pilots so deals should be around. And with the 2009 redesign coming the 2008 should be even less expensive. Any comments? Also, any experience with Carsdirect.com or CostCo buying? I HATE dealing with salespersons. No mention of the Honda Pilot 2008 vs. 2009. I recently read there is an overstocked inventory (on TTAC) of Pilots so deals should be around. And with the 2009 redesign coming the 2008 should be even less expensive. Any comments?

Also, any experience with Carsdirect.com or CostCo buying? I HATE dealing with salespersons.

]]> By: Jazzman http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100896 Jazzman Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:41:48 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100896 I purchased a new '07 Accord 4dr EX-L 6MT with Navi in October...just as the Honda dealers wre filling up with '08's. Let's face it, not many people want an Accord 4 door with a stick...my gain I guess! Sticker was 29,990 but I paid 25k...the '08's are bigger, slower and use more fuel. Only item I miss is the Bluetooth integrated into the Navi...but it is not woth a 5 grand penalty. Plus no 4 door 6 speeds. First year of model runs tend to have problems though..my wife's '04 Toyota Sienna AWD had a full page of problems in 2 years before we sold it.. I purchased a new ‘07 Accord 4dr EX-L 6MT with Navi in October…just as the Honda dealers wre filling up with ’08’s. Let’s face it, not many people want an Accord 4 door with a stick…my gain I guess! Sticker was 29,990 but I paid 25k…the ’08’s are bigger, slower and use more fuel. Only item I miss is the Bluetooth integrated into the Navi…but it is not woth a 5 grand penalty. Plus no 4 door 6 speeds.
First year of model runs tend to have problems though..my wife’s ‘04 Toyota Sienna AWD had a full page of problems in 2 years before we sold it..

]]> By: Virtual Insanity http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100736 Virtual Insanity Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:08:16 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100736 Lumbergh21: <i>You tried to buy an Aztek?</i> Its like saying someone <i>tried</i> to committ suicide. Lumbergh21:
You tried to buy an Aztek?

Its like saying someone tried to committ suicide.

]]> By: David Holzman http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100719 David Holzman Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:27:03 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100719 >>>Both the Vibe and the Matrix are reliable, versatile, borderline fun vehicles. They just look… dated. They looked bad when they came out, and the more you look at them, the worse they look. >>>Both the Vibe and the Matrix are reliable, versatile, borderline fun vehicles. They just look… dated.

They looked bad when they came out, and the more you look at them, the worse they look.

]]> By: Facebook User http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100683 Facebook User Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:30:31 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100683 <em>Matthew Danda : January 21st, 2008 at 12:24 pm I tried to buy a Pontiac Aztec in 2002 based on that logic–no one wants it, so the dealer should play ball. However, no luck. The sales guy could have cared less about the (lack of) demand for the vehicle, I still had to play those stupid negotiation games…so I walked. Sure, these cars are discounted, but who trusts the dealer/salesman to actually let you walk out of the shop with such a good deal?</em> You tried to buy an Aztec? Wow. :-) Matthew Danda :
January 21st, 2008 at 12:24 pm

I tried to buy a Pontiac Aztec in 2002 based on that logic–no one wants it, so the dealer should play ball. However, no luck. The sales guy could have cared less about the (lack of) demand for the vehicle, I still had to play those stupid negotiation games…so I walked.

Sure, these cars are discounted, but who trusts the dealer/salesman to actually let you walk out of the shop with such a good deal?

You tried to buy an Aztec? Wow. :-)

]]> By: Johnson Schwanz http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100664 Johnson Schwanz Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:02:27 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100664 Both of my cars have been "Brand New Old Cars." I still have a 1997 Honda Passport that my dad bought for me in May 1997 - right before the redesign. The sticker for the EX model was $27,000, and my dad got it for $21,000. Although I now need a fuel pump, the truck has currently has 211,000 miles. My "newer" car is a 2002 Honda Accord V6 coupe that I bought for myself in December 2001. The redesigned model had been circulated on the web, so this Honda dealer was willing to negotiate heavily on the car. I saw it roll off the truck, and I bought it with 3.1 miles on the odometer for $21,250 - sticker was $26,645. This car has 128,000 miles, and after the big 105,000 mile service, only needs motor mounts. As evidenced, I keep cars FOREVER, and I don't care about driving the newest of the new models. This strategy has really helped me save some money. Both of my cars have been “Brand New Old Cars.” I still have a 1997 Honda Passport that my dad bought for me in May 1997 – right before the redesign. The sticker for the EX model was $27,000, and my dad got it for $21,000. Although I now need a fuel pump, the truck has currently has 211,000 miles.

My “newer” car is a 2002 Honda Accord V6 coupe that I bought for myself in December 2001. The redesigned model had been circulated on the web, so this Honda dealer was willing to negotiate heavily on the car. I saw it roll off the truck, and I bought it with 3.1 miles on the odometer for $21,250 – sticker was $26,645. This car has 128,000 miles, and after the big 105,000 mile service, only needs motor mounts.

As evidenced, I keep cars FOREVER, and I don’t care about driving the newest of the new models. This strategy has really helped me save some money.

]]> By: Landcrusher http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100651 Landcrusher Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:29:55 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100651 Kman, You hit the nail on the head. That is why you have to make sure you are getting a great deal, not just a small discount like 1500 or 2000 dollars. I suggest that at best, an older model car is worth blue book on a used one with low miles. Otherwise, you might as well look at the new model, or an older one with more depreciation already off the price. There are often individual circumstances, but overall, I say get a steal, or pass. Kman,

You hit the nail on the head. That is why you have to make sure you are getting a great deal, not just a small discount like 1500 or 2000 dollars. I suggest that at best, an older model car is worth blue book on a used one with low miles. Otherwise, you might as well look at the new model, or an older one with more depreciation already off the price. There are often individual circumstances, but overall, I say get a steal, or pass.

]]> By: Kman http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100607 Kman Tue, 22 Jan 2008 05:39:04 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100607 I've thought about this situation, and see a dilemna. What about the factor on at the other end: when it comes time to sell the car. [we will assume you're keeping it for 5 years]. To continue the example in the article, getting a 2007 Murano today means that in five years -- 2013 -- you're selling a 6-year old vehicle. Conversly, getting a 2009 Murano now means you'll be selling a <i>4-</i>year- old vehicle. There's at least a couple grand there, no? I’ve thought about this situation, and see a dilemna.

What about the factor on at the other end: when it comes time to sell the car. [we will assume you're keeping it for 5 years].

To continue the example in the article, getting a 2007 Murano today means that in five years — 2013 — you’re selling a 6-year old vehicle. Conversly, getting a 2009 Murano now means you’ll be selling a 4-year- old vehicle. There’s at least a couple grand there, no?

]]> By: ronbo456 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100553 ronbo456 Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:07:18 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100553 Over the last few years I've bought several cars that were leftovers, demos or just plain used. I've gotten great service from both dealers and independents and I've been able to drive a couple of cars - including a Ferrari - that would have been laughably beyond my means when new. On the other hand, I didn't gain anything by buying a Chrysler 300 new, since it didn't start to break down until the warranty expired. Over the last few years I’ve bought several cars that were leftovers, demos or just plain used. I’ve gotten great service from both dealers and independents and I’ve been able to drive a couple of cars – including a Ferrari – that would have been laughably beyond my means when new. On the other hand, I didn’t gain anything by buying a Chrysler 300 new, since it didn’t start to break down until the warranty expired.

]]> By: 97escort http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100529 97escort Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:52:24 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100529 I bought a 2008 Vibe a week ago today. The dealer had 7 to choose from that have been sitting on his lot for well over a month. I like the styling of the 2009 model better and the lower price too, but the deal was too sweet to resist. If GM goes under parts should be available at Toyota. The list price was $20410. With my GM card earnings I paid $14872. It was a cold day when I drove it home. I though it rode like a wagon compared to my 97 Escort wagon which is my favorite car. Bought that in 2003 for $1300 with 100K on it. It is still worth about that 5 years later with 139K on it. What a deal! I bought a 2008 Vibe a week ago today. The dealer had 7 to choose from that have been sitting on his lot for well over a month. I like the styling of the 2009 model better and the lower price too, but the deal was too sweet to resist. If GM goes under parts should be available at Toyota. The list price was $20410. With my GM card earnings I paid $14872. It was a cold day when I drove it home. I though it rode like a wagon compared to my 97 Escort wagon which is my favorite car. Bought that in 2003 for $1300 with 100K on it. It is still worth about that 5 years later with 139K on it. What a deal!

]]> By: Stu Sidoti http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100501 Stu Sidoti Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:33:40 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100501 For decades my Dad has purchased his cars by a similar process. When a new car comes out, invariably the local dealers will try and hustle him to buy it during one of his service visits. He kindly and politely tells the sales staff after taking the new model for a test drive, 'Gents, this is a nice car and I like it a lot; now when this model comes to the end of it's production run and a new one is coming out, call me and I'll consider it'. A few years later when the next model arrives, he'll bring in his trade, he pays the difference in cash for the 'old' model and usually gets a good deal, sometimes a very good deal and by in large he has had very good luck with reliability through the years using this car-buying method, so yes, All Hail Brand New Old Cars!! For decades my Dad has purchased his cars by a similar process. When a new car comes out, invariably the local dealers will try and hustle him to buy it during one of his service visits. He kindly and politely tells the sales staff after taking the new model for a test drive, ‘Gents, this is a nice car and I like it a lot; now when this model comes to the end of it’s production run and a new one is coming out, call me and I’ll consider it’. A few years later when the next model arrives, he’ll bring in his trade, he pays the difference in cash for the ‘old’ model and usually gets a good deal, sometimes a very good deal and by in large he has had very good luck with reliability through the years using this car-buying method, so yes, All Hail Brand New Old Cars!!

]]> By: Shannon http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100499 Shannon Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:31:03 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100499 <i>But there’s also value to be extracted from Nissan dealers with unlucky ‘07s who MUST lure customers away from the new and improved Murano. We're talking $1,500 from Nissan and the $2,500 between the dealer’s sticker and his or her invoice. Or more.</i> But didn't they LOWER the price of the 2009 Murano by at least $1500? So the rebate basically gets the 2007's to new 2009 prices? Yeah, that 2007 is a steal (not) But there’s also value to be extracted from Nissan dealers with unlucky ‘07s who MUST lure customers away from the new and improved Murano. We’re talking $1,500 from Nissan and the $2,500 between the dealer’s sticker and his or her invoice. Or more.

But didn’t they LOWER the price of the 2009 Murano by at least $1500? So the rebate basically gets the 2007’s to new 2009 prices? Yeah, that 2007 is a steal (not)

]]> By: Gardiner Westbound http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100487 Gardiner Westbound Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:58:39 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100487 Beware of ethically-challenged dealers selling so-called <i>demonstrators</i>, then adding Freight and PDI to the transaction. A demonstrator is a used car. The dealer should fully absorb these costs. Beware of ethically-challenged dealers selling so-called demonstrators, then adding Freight and PDI to the transaction. A demonstrator is a used car. The dealer should fully absorb these costs.

]]> By: confused1096 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100486 confused1096 Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:57:47 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100486 Personally I avoid buying a first year model redesign car. I like to let them have a year or two to make sure it's screwed together correctly and to work any bugs out. Personally I avoid buying a first year model redesign car. I like to let them have a year or two to make sure it’s screwed together correctly and to work any bugs out.

]]> By: hltguy http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100485 hltguy Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:56:02 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100485 That is one of the reasons I purchased a new Dodge Ram 1500 three months ago for $16K, which was $10,500.00 discount from the $26,500.00 the dealer wanted for the truck. ($6K rebate included). I recognize Chrysler may be toast in a couple of years, but I will drive it at that price until the wheels fall off. That is one of the reasons I purchased a new Dodge Ram 1500 three months ago for $16K, which was $10,500.00 discount from the $26,500.00 the dealer wanted for the truck. ($6K rebate included). I recognize Chrysler may be toast in a couple of years, but I will drive it at that price until the wheels fall off.

]]> By: jkross22 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100479 jkross22 Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:26:02 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100479 Why buy from a dealer at all? If buying used, try ebay or AutoTrader and buy from a private seller with maintenance records. Why buy from a dealer at all? If buying used, try ebay or AutoTrader and buy from a private seller with maintenance records.

]]> By: Samir Syed http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100460 Samir Syed Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:42:15 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100460 I got a 2005 Accord with 12,000 miles for a very low price. Not that the 2008 isn't great, but it was just a bit too big for me and I hated the new gauges. I got a 2005 Accord with 12,000 miles for a very low price. Not that the 2008 isn’t great, but it was just a bit too big for me and I hated the new gauges.

]]> By: PJungnitsch http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100449 PJungnitsch Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:17:33 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100449 It's not that simple for the Matrix/Vibe as the price of the new models is projected to go down, plus a s**tload of previously unavailable or expensive safety equipment (side airbags, ABS, ESP) will be standard. It’s not that simple for the Matrix/Vibe as the price of the new models is projected to go down, plus a s**tload of previously unavailable or expensive safety equipment (side airbags, ABS, ESP) will be standard.

]]> By: Landcrusher http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100427 Landcrusher Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:50:13 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100427 All too often the discount is not enough to take the depreciation. Also, dealers are sometimes illogical from our point of view. I only recommend this strategy for folks who DEFINITELY keep their cars more than five years and/or when you can find last year's model being discounted a great deal more than the present year model. All too often the discount is not enough to take the depreciation. Also, dealers are sometimes illogical from our point of view.

I only recommend this strategy for folks who DEFINITELY keep their cars more than five years and/or when you can find last year’s model being discounted a great deal more than the present year model.

]]> By: Matthew Danda http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100421 Matthew Danda Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:24:43 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100421 I tried to buy a Pontiac Aztec in 2002 based on that logic--no one wants it, so the dealer should play ball. However, no luck. The sales guy could have cared less about the (lack of) demand for the vehicle, I still had to play those stupid negotiation games...so I walked. Sure, these cars are discounted, but who trusts the dealer/salesman to actually let you walk out of the shop with such a good deal? I tried to buy a Pontiac Aztec in 2002 based on that logic–no one wants it, so the dealer should play ball. However, no luck. The sales guy could have cared less about the (lack of) demand for the vehicle, I still had to play those stupid negotiation games…so I walked.

Sure, these cars are discounted, but who trusts the dealer/salesman to actually let you walk out of the shop with such a good deal?

]]> By: Dynamic88 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100396 Dynamic88 Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:34:47 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100396 "The models’ sheetmetal changes a bit, but the song remains the same; there’s no drastic increase in size. Horsepower is up, without a hit to gas mileage. For the base 1.8-liter engine, GM and Toyota lose the manual transmission option. Toyota and Pontiac are also offering a 2.4-liter powerplant putting out 158 hp. All wheel-drive is back as on option. If these things be important to you, stay home until March. " Thanks for the info. The car is appealing to me (in either Pontiac or Toyota livery) only if it has AWD. In a few years, when I've saved enough to pay cash, I'll put it back on my shopping list. I'll buy a 2011 model after the 2012s come out. “The models’ sheetmetal changes a bit, but the song remains the same; there’s no drastic increase in size. Horsepower is up, without a hit to gas mileage. For the base 1.8-liter engine, GM and Toyota lose the manual transmission option. Toyota and Pontiac are also offering a 2.4-liter powerplant putting out 158 hp. All wheel-drive is back as on option. If these things be important to you, stay home until March. ”

Thanks for the info. The car is appealing to me (in either Pontiac or Toyota livery) only if it has AWD. In a few years, when I’ve saved enough to pay cash, I’ll put it back on my shopping list. I’ll buy a 2011 model after the 2012s come out.

]]> By: Steven Lang http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100381 Steven Lang Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:01:09 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100381 This is the exact advice I've given my own dad. Back in 1992, he was able to buy one of the remaining Lincoln Mark VII's for only 22k. He drove it for 8 years and a bit over 160,000 miles before some errant driver sideswiped it and totaled it. For a guy who only wanted American-style luxury, insulation from NYC traffic, and... well... a Lincoln, it was a perfect fit. He followed that up by buying the Lexus ES300 in it's last year of production. He's still driving it today and absolutely loves it. He made a semi-pessimistic bet by having the vehicle leased at first (the #$%$^%^$ accountant told him to do that, I told him not too). Well, the lease was at least very small and I wouldn't be surprised if he still has that car by 2012. As for more late model vehicles, I recently saw a 2005 Pontiac Torrent go through a sale for $5000. It had 88,000 miles, a non-descript Pewter exterior, and the interior definitely needed a detail. However, it was an All-Wheel-Drive model and had a lot of the options that most minivan owners want for their next vehicle. A friend of mine bought it, and I've been envying his wise choice ever since. Last year I bought a 2004 Dodge Intrepid with leather, chrome wheels, virtually all the option sans the sunroof... for $3000. It had been fleet maintained and really looked like a brand new vehicle inside and out. Nobody looked at it due to the assumption that it had a head gasket blowing 2.7L V6. Turned out it had the rare 3.5L engine with 230+ HP. Who knew? I did ;) This is the exact advice I’ve given my own dad. Back in 1992, he was able to buy one of the remaining Lincoln Mark VII’s for only 22k. He drove it for 8 years and a bit over 160,000 miles before some errant driver sideswiped it and totaled it. For a guy who only wanted American-style luxury, insulation from NYC traffic, and… well… a Lincoln, it was a perfect fit.

He followed that up by buying the Lexus ES300 in it’s last year of production. He’s still driving it today and absolutely loves it. He made a semi-pessimistic bet by having the vehicle leased at first (the #$%$^%^$ accountant told him to do that, I told him not too). Well, the lease was at least very small and I wouldn’t be surprised if he still has that car by 2012.

As for more late model vehicles, I recently saw a 2005 Pontiac Torrent go through a sale for $5000. It had 88,000 miles, a non-descript Pewter exterior, and the interior definitely needed a detail. However, it was an All-Wheel-Drive model and had a lot of the options that most minivan owners want for their next vehicle. A friend of mine bought it, and I’ve been envying his wise choice ever since.

Last year I bought a 2004 Dodge Intrepid with leather, chrome wheels, virtually all the option sans the sunroof… for $3000. It had been fleet maintained and really looked like a brand new vehicle inside and out. Nobody looked at it due to the assumption that it had a head gasket blowing 2.7L V6. Turned out it had the rare 3.5L engine with 230+ HP. Who knew? I did ;)

]]> By: jakemonO http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/comment-page-1/#comment-100364 jakemonO Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:59:53 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorials/in-praise-of-brand-new-old-cars/#comment-100364 Tell me about it. I'm trying to purchase an '07 Uplander on the grounds that last year's model of an uncompetitive minivan should be practically given away. I intend to hold onto a minivan for at least 5 to seven years. Just getting a dealer in the northeast to play ball is surprisingly tough, though. Tell me about it. I’m trying to purchase an ‘07 Uplander on the grounds that last year’s model of an uncompetitive minivan should be practically given away. I intend to hold onto a minivan for at least 5 to seven years. Just getting a dealer in the northeast to play ball is surprisingly tough, though.

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