What many people are missing is that the highly-efficient light diesels are all in light cars such as Volkswagens, that already make good mileage. A Suburban is a massive vehicle. To do what it needs to do reliably requires at least a mid-sized engine, ie, the 5.3. A 6.0 diesel would do nicely as well. Much less and you risk losing all that beautiful tow capability and load capability.

It’s just not a Prius, folks. It cost me a lot less than a Prius. It burns about 30 gallons a month, as I work at home and it just gets groceries and so on, with the occasional long trip. It seats seven and carries all their stuff. The only thing on the market with better load and people carrying capability is a full-sized van, which gets worse fuel mileage.

So, the truth is that the cost of fuel remains a relatively small percentage of my ownership costs on this beast ( around 10% of the total ), which is something I can live with for what it can do. It is, after all, some sort of combination sport and/or utility vehicle. For what it does, it is an incredibly efficient vehicle.

Now, back to the diesel. With a diesel in place, this thing might make 20mpg with a manual transmission. However, it would have a much lower cost maintenance cycle. Fewer oil changes, less worry about electronic parts being defective, so on. A bullet-proof inline six turbo diesel would hit the spot nicely.

That being said, I don’t think diesel cars will make the splash in the US they have in Europe. Europe’s diesel push is aided by government activism. It has driven the price of diesel up and will continue to do so as time goes on. Also, the US was treated to a stream of horrid diesels from GM et. al., and have never gotten a taste for a proper high compression turbo diesel.

Oh, and for those of you who believe in global warming, diesel is much more carbon-heavy than gasoline. Why do you think it has a higher energy density?

I’m not twisting your words, I’m quoting you verbatim.

Johnson: I’m pretty sure you knew what I meant.

I find it easier to read what you posted. This is The Truth About Cars, not The Truth about Mind Reading.

Johnson: GM is/will be offering not one, but several hybrid systems (mild hybrid BAS system, Two-Mode, E-Flex), ethanol-powered vehicles, diesel engines, and fuel cells ALL in the same market (North America).

It’s one thing to be covering your bets. It’s something else to be completely lost and using a shotgun approach to meet future challenges.

And your proof that any automaker has found the Holy Grail that will answer fuel consumption and emissions concerns, is found where…

Johnson: Flawed observation. Fact remains that the GM full-size hybrids will cost twice as much as a Prius.

That’s irrelevant. (And the Prius costs more than a gasoline-powered Civic or Corolla, but that doesn’t stop these people from buying them.)

If Toyota had used your logic, it would never have introduced the Prius.

The current gasoline powered SUVs also cost more than a Prius, and people still buy them. These people can afford the cost differential.

Tankdog brings up a very good point. The frequency and actual use of your vehicle will be the greatest determinant of it’s pollution and expense. A fellow who drives an MX-5 less than a hundred miles a week will be doing far less damage to their wallet, or the environment, than the ‘holier than thou’ fellow who slogs through several hundreds of miles of traffic in their Prius. This is a huge point because the underlying cause of pollution… is consumption. And vice-versa.

Those who remark about the wonders of hybrid technologies also have valid points. The fellow who decides to use a Prius for their commute will actually be doing fairly well for quite a while. There are over a trillion barrels left in the ground (Iraq and Saudi Arabia have over a half trillion barrels alone) and this may enable alternative non-petroleum / non-energy intensive technologies to take hold. With that in mind, we should consider Toyota’s leading role in making hybrids popular and common in North America.

I think Toyota should be given a lot of credit for the popularity of hybrids overall. They lost several billions in development and production costs over the first several years, and yet, they were still willing to sell the vehicles at a price point where profit could not be reached. At least not in the U.S. Profitability for Toyota did not come until the third generation came to these shoress. The quality level and dedication they made towards hybrid technologies has truly changed the automotive landscape, and I especially like the fact that they have provided one of the most thorough warranties for their hybrid systems when doubts began to surface. Whether we hate the Prius or not, Toyota obviouslt has a technology that can improve fuel economy and make all of us less dependent on oil. They are the only manufacturer to do this in an ‘enduring’ manner over the years.

I think GM’s hybrid technology, via their Allison’s subsidiary, will have a similar impact on the truck market. At this point you can go up to thirty miles an hour without activating the gas engine, and this may prove a big boon for construction companies that rarely have a need to go above 30 mph. The necessity to make fuel economy more appealing to truck and SUV buyers may indeed become GM’s greatest contribution to all this. I’m not that optomistic about the Volt and plug-in technologies in general. But that’s a subject for another rant.

Cleaner and more fuel efficient diesels will continue to play a role thanks in large part to companies like Honda, Peugeot, VW, Daimler, Nissan/Renault, Ford and Cummins. You also have companies like BMW working on their own hybrid technology which will have a greater impact on highway driving.

Finally, I would also add the importance of the Korean automakers, who may not be heavily active at this point. But they are definitely lowering the ‘consumption side’ by pressuring the other automakers to build cars that will last close to the 300k mark. In a world where some automakers could easily kick back a bit to save dollars and sense on the longevity front, Hyundai in particular is focusing on making vehicles endure to an even greater degree than right now. That’s extremely important on the consumption and pollution side since most cars waste nearly one third of their total energy before the key is ever turned.

That right there ends this conversation.

That’s great, because that isn’t what I said. What I said was that the batteries are recharged primarily due to the gas engine. According to the EPA, 20% of the battery’s recharging is attributable to regenerative braking, which of course means that the other 80% is coming from the gas motor.

Unlike Tankdog, I have no problem with that. However, I thought that his point about gasoline being the ultimate power source of the Prius was fairly obvious. That doesn’t make the Prius a bad car, but let’s all understand how it actually works.

do you think Toyota is just idly sitting around and not doing anything?

No, I don’t. Did you see anything in my comments that suggested that I did?

You bet I’m biased, ever since I drove one as a loaner for a week I’ve been convinced it’s a worthless contribution to the marketplace. Are oyu seriously under the impression that when a Prius burns a gallon of gas is somehow emits less polutants than other cars? Al Gore and bong water brigade must have their meetings in your rec room.

Obviously the batteries are charged up the gasoline engine, but to say regenerative braking doesn’t help is foolish. He missed my point entirely about the emissions of the Prius and of the ability of the Prius to travel with the gas engine turned off for periods of time.

I think we’re all tired of trying to explain the law of conservation of energy to you so read it for yourself.

http://library.thinkquest.org/2745/data/lawce1.htm

If Toyota issued you a rare experimental pepetual motion machine, well I stand corrected.

P.S. The last part of your post was so ass backwards I wouldn’t know where to begin.

Yes, the batteries are charged up by the gas engine. But it’s also true the Prius emits VERY little greenhouse gases and other pollutants, a fact you refuse to acknowledge even though the EPA data is concrete in this case.

Comparing the Prius to an Echo simply shows how obvious your bias is and it also shows that you haven’t driven the Prius, or if you have it just shows your bias.

Pch101:
You missed his point. The battery is ultimately charged up mostly by the gas motor.

That’s just reality. You can still like hybrids while still understanding that this is true.

Obviously the batteries are charged up the gasoline engine, but to say regenerative braking doesn’t help is foolish. He missed my point entirely about the emissions of the Prius and of the ability of the Prius to travel with the gas engine turned off for periods of time.

tankd0g:
The fact is, gasoline hybrid cars are a developmental dead end, when the oil runs out these cars will be just as obsolete as a Hemi powered Dodge Ram. I own two cars that get 25mpg, they are both primarily for fun, together they cost me about 10 grand less than a Prius. But I bought a house within walking distance of work. I bet I burn less gas per year than just about any Prius driver. And I don’t really give a damn about my carbon footprint, I care about my wallet and how full it is, as do most people.

Wrong yet *again*. Hybrid systems can be paired with anything from fuel cells to diesel engines. Once the oil runs out, you replace the gasoline engine with something else.

It’s quite hypocritical of you and certainly does not help your credibility to be bashing the environmental performance of the Prius while admitting you don’t care about your carbon footprint.

Just out of curiosity, what are those two cars that cost you 10 grand less than a Prius? And please don’t say they’re both used cars which you’re comparing to the price of a new Prius because that would be laughable.

tankd0g and Pch101, do you think Toyota is just idly sitting around and not doing anything? Since the Gen 2 Prius came out (which was 5 years ago) Toyota has been working on the Gen 3 Prius. Yes, with the current gen Prius if you remove the gas engine it won’t be going anywhere. But if the next-gen Prius has plug-in capability, that will no longer be true. I wonder what will the criticism of the Prius be then?

You missed his point. The battery is ultimately charged up mostly by the gas motor.

A hybrid is ultimately a gasoline-powered car that uses batteries in order to let the gas engine do less work. Yes, regenerative braking also plays a role in recharging the batteries, but that’s a minor role compared to the role of the gas engine in recharging the battery.

Here’s one way to look at it. Remove the batteries and electric motor, and you could drive a Prius with its gas engine alone. Remove the gas engine, and that car isn’t going anywhere.

That’s just reality. You can still like hybrids while still understanding that this is true.

You did not read what I previously posted, did you? I clearly stated that you can re-capture energy using regenerative braking with the car being powered by the electric motors ONLY. Have you actually driven a Prius? I have, and I can tell you under very light throttle and low speeds the car runs on electric power ONLY. This was driving my friend’s Prius. My friend has also told me that he’s done that; started up the car, and then driven down the street completely 100% on electric power.

Why are you comparing “other” 40 mpg cars? Most other 40 mpg cars are NOT in the same class as the Prius. Apples to apples, the Prius DOES pollute less than other midsize cars. PERIOD.

Don’t believe me, check the EPA pollution figures on the Prius and other cars: the ONLY other two cars in the same class that come close to the Prius are the Camry Hybrid and Altima Hybrid which ironically enough BOTH use Toyota’s Synergy Drive.

Go here: http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do
Look up vehicle by type (in any State you want) and choose midsize cars. Then when you get the search results sort the vehicles according to both the air pollution score and greenhouse gas score.

The Prius achieves BEST-IN-CLASS air pollution and greenhouse gas scores. You can also do the same search for small cars if you wish, even though the Prius is classified as a midsize car. With small cars, there is only one vehicle (Honda Civic Hybrid) which ties the Prius in both air pollution and greenhouse gas scores. Problem is, the Civic Hybrid is smaller and not in the same class as the Prius. The Civic Hybrid also gets inferior fuel economy to the Prius.

Only you really couldn’t. The energy used to get you the food you ate to create the calories needed to push the Prius up the hill in the first place invariably came from gasoline.

But that’s not the point is it?

The truth is that a Prius is really a luxury. Everyone knows it is too big, and doesn’t get enough mileage! It’s decadent. All anyone really NEEDS is a 25 hp car with four seats. Now, Comrades, all we need to do is make the Trabant a little more efficient…

40 mpg is 40 mpg. You have been duped by marketing.

Wrong. Some of the propulsion energy the Prius uses is derived from the regenerative braking. I would encourage you to fully research and understand Toyota’s Synergy Drive.

The Prius CAN propel itself on electric-power ONLY (for a limited time under a limited speed).

If we assume a Prius with 0 km on the odometer is started up, the gas engine should not turn on. At idle, only the electric hybrid system should be on. Theoretically, if you move at 2-5 mph and then brake, the gas engine the whole time should be turned off and you’d recover some energy from the braking. This would be an example of a Prius propelling itself without a gas engine.

On all of Toyota’s new hybrid models, there is an “EV Mode” button which forces the hybrid system to run on electric power only. It works only at limited speeds, but it shows that Toyota’s hybrids can proper themselves without the gas engine.

First off, everything you said about minivans vs. SUV’s is false except that SOME people do buy SUV’s rather than minivans because of image issues. And, let me state immediately that they have a right to do that. The minivan itself is a product of the free market. Places that limit the choices of people end up with stuff like the Trabant, and Gulags.

I am tired of being insulted by people like you who want to through out generalizations about SUV owners in some attempt to make themselves seem smart. I never had kids, and I rarely tow anything, and I would never buy a minivan because they don’t meet my needs, wants, or represent a value to me.

The biggest cost of ownership is depreciation and the loss you incur when buying and selling. My Land Cruiser holds it value much better than any minivan, and ten years and 120,000 plus miles from the lot is still tight and like new (as it was at 5 years and 76k when I bought it). It has taken me through mud, snow, and water that would have left me stranded by the minivan that would then have needed repair. It also has an interior that has held up, unlike any minivan I have seen that lived that long. My total cost of ownership is less than a minivan.

Not all SUV’s are like mine, but people are often buying them because they think they will last like a well built body on frame SUV. That is part of the “image” of SUV’s vs. Minivans. If you don’t like it complain about the manufacturers, not the buyers.

BTW, how do you know how often people utilize their SUV’s for towing, or other things a minivan would not be good for? Did you even do the math to figure out how many times you would have to rent a truck a year to offset the cost of lower gas mileage before you typed that in? I would lose even more money with a minivan by renting a truck even ONCE. Sorry, but the fuel savings is only about $500 a year. If I rent a truck for two days, include the value of my time to do all this stuff, the cost to get to the rental place, etc. I will eat more than that. Even someone making $20 per hour would likely be a loser at 2 rentals. Thats IF they can find an SUV or Full size van for rent with a tow hitch at all. Likely, the only rental allowing a tow is a beat up, stripped down pick up truck. Just what everyone wants on their vacation!

I am really tired of some of these tired and ignorant myths getting rehashed. If you think the common wisdom may be correct, but haven’t really figured it out, then you should maybe ask about it rather than stating it as fact.

1. Turning the engine off while stopped or coasting.2. Taking energy normally lost during braking or coasting and rerouting it to the electric engine.

These two places are why replacing a standard gasoline engine with a hybrid engine, but making no other changes to the vehicle, increases mileage. Of course, the Prius also uses other tricks, such as an extremely aerodynamic design, to increase mileage as well.

Obviously, some of these tow a boat a couple weekends a year. But even then, it would make more sense to merely rent a big SUV for those occassions-you would still save money.

No, people buy SUVs because they don’t want to admit they have kids and need a minivan.