“WHAT HAPPENED TO PHIL AFTER THE BATTERING.
PHIL IF YOU STILL CAN READ THIS LINK, WE, I FOR ONE MISS YOU ALOT!!!”

Well…my end of year professional life inundates me and I have been under water. But I’m coming back imminently. I spent a lot of time at the L.A. Auto show Thanksgiving week as part of pulling my thoughts together on my next editorial and am working on that now. Will be back to TTAC straight away.

Phil

Awesome. Don’t take what I say too seriously – if this were a face-to-face conversation you’d know I’m not a (complete) jerk. Although I didn’t edit that (I know the site did, sorry…).

On a side note – around where I’m from, people aren’t too keen on talking about their cars. I’ve tried it a few times in parking lots and such, and it hasn’t gone over too well. I’ve encountered guys who have no clue as to how many cylinders are under the hood. Seriously. I only know a few folks off hand that are really as in to cars as I am – it’s sad, really. And – in complete seriousness – I saw a Solstice tonight (red, no idea of trim) driven by a dude. If I ever have the chance encounter with a Solstice/Sky driver getting in their car nearby I might just ask a few questions myself.

Having owned British sports cars in places with real winter, I appreciate the design and execution of the Miata retractable hardtop. I wish GM had done the same, but I don’t think the current Solstice packaging supports the proposition. That’s a real cold-weather advantage. However, I don’t think you have to worry about a Solstice/Sky starting in the winter. I know two owners who will put them through winter this year in the northeast, so will have a window into that. A relative there owns a Cobalt and another has an HHR, both of which are not garaged and they get through winter fine.

Phil

Of course, here in Minnesota (where men are men and so are the healthy women), a futzy top isn’t going to be overlooked the way it might be in SoCal. And we put a premium on cars that start in the winter and don’t go weird and half-drain the batteries overnight because nobody likes to be standing alongside their car in 5degF weather in 2″ of slush trying to jump-start the sumbitch.

Perhaps Global Warming will improve the market for the Skystice here. I do see Miatas, including the latest and the new hardtop.

I’ll take support for the D3 where I can get it. But if CR endorsed Malibu, it wouldn’t change my view that the magazine is not a good reference for choosing a car. I have and will continue to ignore its findings in my own automotive evaluations and purchases.

Macca: I saw the initial version of your post in my email feed from this thread. As answer to your other two comments/questions: 1) I type quickly. 2) Coastal southern California is filled with car people, so you can get a lot of information just by asking. People are usually eager to talk about their cars. Plus, I drive a car that attracts a lot of curiosity, so it’s common for people to engage me. I’m open with people who want to know about my ride, and if I see a car I want to know more about, I just ask.

Phil

No, I’m not cross shopping a Focus and Impala, just havn’t decided on the size of car I want.

I won’t do a long winded review. I’ll just say Focus is a pretty good little car, judging it for what it is, but I simply could not bring myself to buy it when I could have a Civic instead.

Impala I just don’t have anything to compare to, it’s been many years since I drove a full sized car. There was nothing objectionable, except the faux wood graining on the dash. If they can’t do it well, maybe it’s better not to do it at all.

I havn’t taken a good look at D’s offerings for several years. I’m impressed with the progress.

I do wonder what you’d say if the Malibu turned up to be CR best buys someday…it’d be hard to throw that edition out, I’m sure.

What would define a “home run” in a segment where the incumbent was selling only +/- 20,000 cars? The Solstice alone is beating Miata now. Together, Solstice + Sky have an insurmountable lead for the year. For this year GM not only arrested Miata sales but more important brought new buyers into the segment. The car has had an excellent start in the market, and the drivetrain has not inherited the Cobalt’s earlier problems. It’s a dependable sports car, irrespective of the non-critical reliability glitches noted by CR. The car’s shape isn’t one to tire of, so it’s really up to GM to refine the car annually until a thorough revise. Let’s see what’s polished on the car through 2009 before you write it off.

That’s probably why Miata sales are somewhat more stable compared to those of the Solstice (Miata sales are down about 8% year-to-date as of September — not a great performance, but showing more resilient that the 17% decline for the Solstice),

Time will tell but at least for this year, a major reason for Solstice’s 17% drop has been introduction of the functionally-identical Sky latter part of last year and moving into its first full year of production in 2007. Sky’s Corvette resemblance is succeeding and siphoning off some of the demand satisfied by Solstice last year. While Saturn production is lower than Solstice, Saturn sells more Sky per store than Pontiac sells Solsice per store. From GM’s standpoint, the combined sales are an outstanding debut in a niche sector usually led by a sentimental favorite.

I would predict that within a year or two that this little run will be over, and the Miata will continue to chug away while the Solstice and Sky are forgotten about.

OK, you’re on record and we’ll come back in November 2009 to tabulate.

The whole point of these cars is to provide a halo that rubs off on other cars, and I doubt that will happen here for GM.

These cars have already generated a halo. For example, 6 of the 7 people I personally know who own Kappas never owned a domestic car before, nor had ever been in a GM showroom. Public perception is favorable and when they’re on the streets, these cars trigger positive emotions about a Pontiac. Consumer Reports? Who’s paying attention? Their “worst” list of sports cars includes come category best sellers. It’s more indication that what they are tabulating as reliability issues are in fact too minor to affect dependability, which is what people really care about. Put another way, the difference between best and worst in their indices indicates that from a dependability perspective, you’re hard pressed to buy a bad car anymore from anyone.

+++++

I had to drive to San Diego yesterday to visit a couple of companies and decided to stop in Orange County on the return trip to see a friend. This being SoCal and me covering 150 miles each way traversing L.A., Orange County and then San Diego, I saw a lot of convertibles including Kappas. When I pulled into the parking lot for my friend’s small company, I noticed there were two Solstice and one Sky in the parking lot. The Sky was a Redline and Solsti were one each std. and GXP. My friend drives a German car. I asked him about the GM sports cars in the lot and he told me they were all driven by guys who work with him. I asked whether I could talk to them. He rounded them up and they showed me their cars.

I didn’t mention TTAC or this thread and the editorial that has spawned it. I just said I am interested in their cars and I was curious how these cars are perceived in import-saturated California. They were eager to talk about their whips, and none had seen an XLR-V before so it was a good exchange.

Among the many topics in what became a long and animated conversation, I got short answers to four questions pertinent to recent postings in this thread:

1/ Every reviewer has complained about the top being inconvenient. Didn’t that bother you? The verbatim answer: “Who cares when it looks this cool? Besides, it’s down most of the time anyway.”

And, “Yeah, but it’s easier than people think.”

If the top is improved in a subsequent update, these guys would probably appreciate that, but they don’t see the current top as impediment to buying the car.

2/ Which brought me to my next question: The trunk gets slammed for being tiny. Is that a problem for you? Answers: “I didn’t buy it for the trunk.” and the classic, “I bought it to haul ass, not groceries.” (GXP driver).

3/ I also asked whether they had read any of the chatter on the ‘net regarding the differential pinion seal leak, and whether they’ve had leaks. I got two answers: a) “Never heard of it; don’t know what you’re talking about;” and b) “Yeah, heard about it but haven’t had any problem.”

We all bent over to look for oil drips under each of the three differentials. All dry and tight, not a spot on the asphalt. Diffs quiet when driven.

4/ I mentioned that Consumer Reports ranked it last in reliability among sports cars. Comments returned: “Who reads Consumer Reports?” and “Who buys a sports car on what Consumer Reports says?”

At least here in California, Solstice/Sky are doing for GM what was intended.

Phil

And over a dozen trouble-free American cars purchased new and driven hard since 1982.

I think Phil’s larger point is just this; we’ll all be a little poorer if Ford, GM and Chrysler tank.

Yes. Economically, culturally and in terms of a diminished roadscape aesthetic.

Feminine? What’s the soft, rounded nose and twin humps on the back of the Solstice supposed to suggest?

Perhaps the distinction between Miata and Solstice should be put this way: Miata, while a good looking car with pleasing proportions, appears to many in our culture as effeminate. While Solstice, via sexy, feminine shapes, appeals to the masculine regardless of driver gender. Miata gets described as “cute;” Solstice wins “beautiful” or “Gorgeous.”

Except of course to those who don’t like it.

Phil

“They also hope a green halo will help solve a tough marketing problem they face: A sizeable contingent of U.S. car buyers simply won’t consider a U.S.-branded car, believing them to be inferior and déclassé.

Cadillac, which has a new Bob Dylan commercial out, has led the way in trying to overturn the “import bigot” syndrome in a niche where the formidable competitors are Mercedes, Lexus and BMW. The results so far have been so-so (though the cars are excellent).”

It feels like he may have read Phil’s editorial here. I guess this adds at least one more person agreeing with the concept. I wonder if his statements could cause over 1000 comments though?

Or more to the point, the Miata is perceived by the marketplace to be a “chick car,” in that many males who might want one probably won’t buy one because of the stigma attached to that perception. This isn’t reflected in the gender ratio of buyers — both the Miata and Solstice skew about 2/3rd’s male — but the age of Solstice buyers is definitely lower, hinting that the Solstice will appeal to the style conscious who like the boy-racer shtick.

Which leads us back to the Solstice and the Sky. The one area in which these have succeeded has been the styling. However, styling is only important to so many buyers.

As is the case with many designs of this sort, it will likely have limited appeal and a limited shelf life. Those who want one will buy one early, and may never buy a repeat.

The problem with the Solstice is that styling is its only superior attribute. If it had great styling AND a reliable drivetrain AND had a motor that didn’t betray its Cobalt “heritage”, then that would have been a home run, and it could expect to own the market for quite some time. But based upon the current trend, the Solstice will be an also-ran in a year or two.

That’s probably why Miata sales are somewhat more stable compared to those of the Solstice (Miata sales are down about 8% year-to-date as of September — not a great performance, but showing more resilient that the 17% decline for the Solstice), and why Mazda’s overall sales are up 9%, versus Pontiac’s decline of 9% — the products and brand have stronger overall selling points.

Right now, the style-oriented who wanted a Solstice have largely bought one. A few like the Sky, which was released somewhat later, and those may sell for awhile longer, too. I would predict that within a year or two that this little run will be over, and the Miata will continue to chug away while the Solstice and Sky are forgotten about.

And again, while the Miata helped the build the overall value of the Mazda brand, neither the Sky nor Solstice will likely do the same for Saturn or Pontiac. The whole point of these cars is to provide a halo that rubs off on other cars, and I doubt that will happen here for GM. Another lost opportunity — can anyone really be surprised?

Also, Mazda may not want to make it, but there are people who want to buy it. The problem is doing it affordably and reliably. (as GM is finding of course)

Feminine? What’s the soft, rounded nose and twin humps on the back of the Solstice supposed to suggest?

Various: Remarked on the power of the GXP and Redline Skystices…

If Mazda wants a Miata to beat the Skystice at the strip, they will introduce a version of the Miata that does that.

I agree with the Mazda 3 being the superior car to the US Focus, and we all know it’s based on the euro-focus. However, they reap great benefits on the importing of the 3 from Japan due to healthcare cost savings/yen to US exchange shenanigans. Mazda builds cars here, but I don’t think they could pull off the 3 in the US for those reasons. Of course, when Ford will want to build something out of the country, it’s just offshoring, not the only way to compete globally.

edgett “The diversity in the market brings us from Porsche’s pumped-up 4-cam turbo flat six to GM’s alloy push-rod V8 which makes more power in less weight. It brings us silky, if thirsty Mazda rotaries, Subaru’s excellent update(s) on the VW boxer theme, Mitsubishi’s hypercharged Evo 4’s and excellent new direct injection sixes from BMW, Toyota and GM. All of these appeal to different people, yet whatever I drive is better because of the competition among these manufacturers. I like Toyotas and will recommend them to friends who seem to fit what Toyota markets, but I’d prefer not to live in a world which is limited only to Toyota offerings. I think Phil’s larger point is just this; we’ll all be a little poorer if Ford, GM and Chrysler tank. ”

Nicely summarized. People on here are not generally what this article is referencing. Like I have noted, there is a big difference between segments, and this mostly relates to the mid-size sedan people who just need something they like the looks of and has the features they want. “Car people” are very particular, and tend to look for certain things, and there’s no convincing them once they’ve set their mind. Everyone else is an open-market generally, and there ARE domestic options that will fully satisfy them. They just might not know it yet.

As to the solstice, it will never be the 100% car it could be if GM goes under. I personally like having the option of both a miata or solstice, rather than just the “feminine” mazda. Anyone arguing against more choices just doesn’t make sense to me, and isn’t a car person but an “import fanboy” to use the internet terminology.

Phil has pointed out that he is in complete agreement about the past sins of Detroit, yet has had good luck with both the XLR-V and CTS-V; he appears to look for the same spark from Detroit that any other enthusiast does. The fact that there are those who buy both of these cars, which are, whether you like them or not far better than the vehicles they replaced, is proof that somebody at GM is trying to hit a target which we all agree upon. Phil is a classic optimist and in the end wanted to share an experience just so others would think about the progress made from the FWD Allante and STS. There’s no denying the difference between an XLR and an Allante, or between the CTS and old FWD STS. Perhaps with some encouragement, they’ll be building more cars that people want.

In the end, even though I bought the BMW in lieu of the CTS, I did take the time to check it out and found it encouraging. They at least showed up with the Solstice and didn’t leave the market entirely to Mazda, Honda and BMW. And on the other side, if Maximum Bob looks at the current Solstice as a 98% offering, that can also mean that he envisions one which is closer to 100% and that there are others at GM working on just that project.

I don’t know that I’ll ever buy a Corvette, but there is no denying that a lot of car people sweated blood to make the C6 as good as it is, in just the way that other great sports cars were developed. And the goodness of the C6 is proof positive there remains in GM some component who will get around the accountants to produce a quality car.

All of the various surveys, polls and anecdotes aside, the larger picture is that GM and Ford are on the ropes. Most of us car fanatics are asked for our advice by friends. As much as I like what I drive, my neighbor might be highly satisfied with a CTS. And if I suggested that a friend look at a Fusion to compare with an Altima, I might well be doing them a favor. At least they give an American car a fair shot.

The diversity in the market brings us from Porsche’s pumped-up 4-cam turbo flat six to GM’s alloy push-rod V8 which makes more power in less weight. It brings us silky, if thirsty Mazda rotaries, Subaru’s excellent update(s) on the VW boxer theme, Mitsubishi’s hypercharged Evo 4’s and excellent new direct injection sixes from BMW, Toyota and GM. All of these appeal to different people, yet whatever I drive is better because of the competition among these manufacturers. I like Toyotas and will recommend them to friends who seem to fit what Toyota markets, but I’d prefer not to live in a world which is limited only to Toyota offerings. I think Phil’s larger point is just this; we’ll all be a little poorer if Ford, GM and Chrysler tank.

I’ve written that I think Solstice is a product of a transitional GM. Sales do not indicate it to be a low performer. Driving it does not suggest a low performer. Most owners are thrilled. The CR survey, as I pointed out, like most of what they publish is not useful absent context of the data spread and some idea of what kinds of complaints inform a “reliability” score. You know my consistent disregard for CR data, so you shouldn’t be surprised that I don’t believe it reflects the reality of owning this car for most people. Once again: for me Consumer Reports has zero credibility in any product category. I do not spend any of my money informed by their findings. More important, what does matter is how is GM responding to any problems that emerge. The record so far is one of responsiveness and satisfaction.

I raised the discussion of the Solstice to show how the GM of today, the one that you would like us to embrace, just ain’t all that.

GM created and launched a niche specialty car on an accelerated schedule and won a following for the two models resulting, and are outselling an 18 year entrenched market leader. By your prior definition, the market’s embrace makes Solstice intrinsically superior. What’s wrong now?

The Aura drives reasonably well, but is unreliable.

I’ve seen nothing to indicate the Aura is “unreliable.” Vehicle reliability in today’s market is not a binary attribute. Reliability is the norm, with degrees separating makers and models. Even the record-keepers recognize this. They’ve had to separate “reliability” from “dependability,” because they know these reliability differences are not translating to meaningful differences in dependability.

The G6 is another mediocre fleet darling.

This is an older transitional product. Have you driven on in any configuration similar to how a retail customer would buy it?

The GTO was a flop.

Low volume specialty car with modest sales goals, with a limited life span and also an earlier transitional initiative that was nevertheless reliable; hampered by a timid design makeover of its Australian bones.

The Lacrosse is reliable, but reliably dull.

Like import offerings in the heart of the market.

You blamed the suppliers, the customers, and the very alleged nature of the product type, just about everything and everyone but for the people who actually designed and built the car. Exactly what I expected you to do.

The people who designed and built the car made controversial design decisions in a fast-track project. No one here has the inside knowledge to understand their full context for those decisions. The carping about why the trunk is small (not a quality issue) or why the car is heavier than Miata (they declared they weren’t aiming for a Miata clone) is nothing more than that — carping in the absence of information. Otherwise, the car has been reliable with one component problem that has both supplier and customer behavior contributors. And it’s being addressed.

It never occurs to you that by ignoring the problems and digging in for a battle that you actually hurt the company that you love so much because you encourage them to never learn from their mistakes.

You are mistaken to think I have any distinct love for GM or that’s what motivates me. I’m driving my first new-bought GM products only now, having made those first GM new car purchases more than 30 years since buying my first car. If I have any emotional affinity for an automaker, my history says it would be Ford, from which I bought about a dozen cars. My interest here is strictly pragmatic. We are self-interested in the retention of these companies as domestically-owned manufacturers.

We’re not giving advice to GM here. We’re discussing Solstice in the context of the original case for abandoning import bigotry and giving new competitive American cars their due in buying consideration and evaluation. Actually, in this case, the sports car market appears to have embraced the Kappa twins. But it’s a small market and a sideshow to the main thrust of my editorial.

Unfortunately, it’s the enablers who have led them to this precipice because they have encouraged and indulged the development of weak products that aren’t cut out for the degree of competition evident in today’s market. You wanted a sub par performance, and sure enough, that’s what you got.

Solstice is a first generation entry into a niche market that shows a GM team’s hand for how they intend to fill a market niche. It’s a start, not a finish. Over the next two generations of the car, we’ll see how GM elects to evolve the car and what of the initial play they choose to improve. I’m certain you’ll see more trunk capacity and a more convenient top. Eventually, both engineering and materials substitutions will trim some of the mass. But I don’t expect it to be a Miata clone any more than GM would abandon Corvette’s unique composition to build a Porsche clone instead.

If beating sales of an 18 year category incumbent with a first-stab product is “sub-par performance” then let’s have more of that. If what was accomplished on a tight resource and time budget with Solstice were extrapolated to the 2008 Malibu, it would sell above or at parity with Camry in its second model year, and when combined with stablemates on the same platform, be the #1 midsize seller. If. So, Solstice isn’t the failure you paint it to be. It is a fast-tracked specialty initiative from a transitional GM that chose to make a play in a segment no one gave it chance of success in, and it performs. Its many fans have been undeterred by the criticism of Miata fans who irrelevantly point out it isn’t a Miata clone. And the fact that they actually have direct experience with the car, and you appear not to, lends owners credibility you don’t have.

I’m not an enabler for dysfunction, nor do I have any connection to or influence in these firms. GM management doesn’t need me for its defense. They are capable for speaking for and representing themselves. What they do need is genuine open-mindedness on the part of customers in their home market, a willingness to put past grudges and resentments aside, and real evaluation of competitive products. If they get that, the product portfolio and improved business practices will do their part to help them claw their way to completion of their reform.

Like every other carmaker, they will not be absent some errors. How they respond to any mistakes will be telling. These companies know the market is watching. Solstice is encouraging, not discouraging. Solstice is winning new business. As a product of a transitional GM, Solstice suggests even better from the output of newer initiatives. Let’s give them a chance, now, today, instead of waiting ten more years.

Phil

As usual, you miss the point. So perhaps providing a few subtitles will help.

You have constantly implored the audience to ignore the past. Even though most of us were raised to believe that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, you believe that the past should be forgotten.

Fine, I decided to indulge you for a bit by playing this game of yours, looking strictly at the present. The Solstice is important for GM today because the present GM management team has touted this car as an indication of what wonderful things GM can do right now. As in today. The time period that you want us to embrace. So goodbye dreaded history, hello tomorrow.

Fine, we’ve examined it, because this product was Lutz’s baby and supposedly a representative of the new “impeccable” GM. And oops, I’ll be damned if the Solstice isn’t just a low performer, but the very lowest performer in the CR reliability survey. It’s #1 at being the worst, how proud Lutz must be for that.

I raised the discussion of the 98% Solstice to show how the GM of today, the one that you would like us to embrace, just ain’t all that. The Aura drives reasonably well, but is unreliable. The Cobalt, a subperformer. The G6 is another mediocre fleet darling. The GTO was a flop. The Lacrosse is reliable, but reliably dull. I’ll give them credit for the CTS, as it seems to be about the only exception among the lot.

And I’ll admit it that I set you up a bit, trickling out information, as I wanted to see how you’d react. Sure enough, you came through like a charm, looking for every rationalization in the book, bouncing from one excuse to the next as you sought to defend the Solstice at all costs.

You blamed the suppliers, the customers, and the very alleged nature of the product type, just about everything and everyone but for the people who actually designed and built the car. Exactly what I expected you to do.

It’s almost as if there is a script at GM Central Casting that you use to come up with this stuff. No matter what happens, the fanboys rush out to defend it. It never occurs to you that by ignoring the problems and digging in for a battle that you actually hurt the company that you love so much because you encourage them to never learn from their mistakes.

It’s really a shame that it has come to this, that one of the world’s largest companies, one that was at the forefront of inventing modern marketing practices, is now actually at the verge of collapse. Unfortunately, it’s the enablers who have led them to this precipice because they have encouraged and indulged the development of weak products that aren’t cut out for the degree of competition evident in today’s market. You wanted a sub par performance, and sure enough, that’s what you got.

Yeah. Almost exclusively. The women in my life have rolled with the limitations of tiny sports cars when I’ve owned them. Back in the Brit days, we had racks on the trunk lid, too.

How do you figure the Japanese made two cars better-suited to fat American bottoms than the Americans themselves?

Aside from the Euro sourcing and influence, I don’t know. They are all equally too small for me and I’m 6′3″/180. From my perspective, every modern sports car maker has forgotten basic packaging the Brits knew 50 years ago. Well, let’s concede the complexity of modern cars takes space too, but still.

In the real world, you have nice, long straights to build up speed and then a turn expectedly sneaks up on you. In these situations the MX-5 is incredibly forgiving and the Solstice, well, it’s scary.

I live in Los Angeles and drive the canyon roads and the coastal roads upstate at speed. I’ve been on them in Kappas. But I’m a lifetime sports car owner. I don’t find the Solstice or the GXP scary, even with everything about driving position compromised for me. That said, the Miata is more forgiving of an error in judgment or a distraction. I don’t mind the attention the Kappa cars require. But that’s me.

Phil

I have no issue with you having this as a criterion for acceptance in your case. What’s important to you is what’s important to you. However, in practical use, many convertible owners drive to their destination top up, unload and unpack, explore top down, and then return via freeway top-up. For that kind of person, the trunk space isn’t an impediment.

yet someone, perhaps even Maximum Bob himself, decreed that the look of the top was more important than the usefulness of the car.

I think this was simply a consequence of a decision to develop an “it” car in very little time. I expect the limitation to be corrected when the car is next revised.

And the weight issue is nothing more than pulling it out of the oven before it was well and truly baked. The Corvette released on a similar timetable (granted that the chassis was already sorted) is 17 inches longer, an inch wider, carries a V8 which is three times larger by displacement, and is only 12% heavier despite the need for larger everything to deal with the massive differential in both power and performance.

Yes, the basic work for taking a couple hundred pounds out of the Corvette was done in the long gestation period for the C5. The C6 is refinement of that basic work. It was the C5 that put Corvette in the 3100 pound range.

This is of course anecdotal, but there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of battered old Miatas tearing around race courses every season, belying the idea that it is a slow car.

Miata is a low 7 seconds car. Good by 60s, 70s and 80s standards, OK now. It doesn’t succeed in weekend racing on speed and acceleration — it succeeds on great balance and having enough speed. It’s speed is fine for what the car is. Most drivers aren’t getting 7.2 seconds to 60 in their street driving because they don’t know how to.

If we fast-forward ten years, it is possible that we will see the Solstice/Sky twins in a similar mission, but they will be penalized by needing more brakes and more breathing on the Ecotec to keep up with the much-lighter Miata/MX-5.

I fully expect well before 10 years you’ll see a weight-competitive Solstice. GM’s track record on mass reduction in performance cars supports my optimism. This car is a start, not a finish.

The frustrating thing about this car is that GM is proven to be capable of building class-leading engines, yet chose not to.

Say what you will about the 2.4L, but the 2.0L turbo is a very nice mill.

Don’t you find it more than a little frightening that Ford’s partner is able to sell Mazda3’s here at a profit, while they lose money on the totally inferior U.S. Focus? Isn’t it a little scary that the Astra “business plan” includes importing them and selling them at a loss in order to establish an entry into the small car business? And, after all of the money that was poured into Saturn, they no longer have a basic small car which can be produced in the U.S. and sold competitively at a profit?

Yes, I am unhappy about all these things. If I were giving advice to Detroit, I’d be pushing for a different strategy in the small car game, but I do understand GM choosing to import Astras to place a credible small car sooner. In any case, for near term impact, the small car isn’t where the leverage is for giving these companies some margin for working out the longer term problems.

The Solstice, however, should not get anyone excited about going to the Pontiac store. It does not demonstrate superiority in its class in the way that the C6 does.

It may not get you out of your Miata or S2000, but it is winning so far this year, with a close lead widened dramatically when the Sky is added to the Kappa total. To the people who buy the Kappas, they are superior on aesthetic appeal, and a certain kind of driver prefers its power delivery.

I doubt anyone is missing the fact that GM and especially Ford squandered vital development money on trucks and other businesses at a cash-flush time when they had the opportunity to come up with a killer Impala or Taurus. Both of these cars had tremendous brand loyalty and could have within one model cycle totally changed the way that people felt about American cars. Instead, money was squandered on the two (D)Hummers, a revised Explorer and ever-more ridiculous looking pickup trucks.

True, but now this is behind us. It’s not like other companies didn’t get sucked in too, from Toyota to Porsche. What matters now is, can we be objective enough in sufficient numbers to fuel the reform of the Detroit 3?

It really is difficult to understand how a niche player like BMW managed to build a small FWD car which is admittedly not a major source of profit, while Detroit keeps on with the mediocrity of the Focus and Cobalt.

BMW inherited some Brits who were steeped in the pattern of the Mini. Meanwhile, a lot of people who don’t fit in a Mini do fit in a Focus and a Cobalt. The reason for these two cars is cost. Only a limited number of Americans will pay premiums for upmarket small cars — so far. Detroit could be doing more to accelerate change there. Let’s see some Euro-Fords here.

used an out-dsourced Brazilian Chrysler engine!!!

And a crummy engine it was. The new one is so much better. Yet people overlooked the original cheesy motor because the car had strong emotional appeal.

So pardon all of us if we’re just a little frustrated that neither GM nor Ford could put the engineering resources in place to build a competitive little car.

Consider yourself pardoned. I’ve been frustrated by these companies too. However, I can put that aside to keep my larger interests in mind. That’s what I’m asking others to do too.

somehow you don’t get that these responses aren’t arguments “against” the domestic car, per se, but are reasonably well documented experiences

I do understand that, in some cases. But most of these Kappa comments are by people who don’t have direct knowledge of the car and their commentary is articulated as an attack rather than as criticism. That’s not the case with you, however, so I appreciate that.

Phil

Have you ever travelled with a woman before?

Is your impression based on the 2.4L or the 2.0L turbo car?

Non-turbo.

Personal. It’s uncomfortable for me since I don’t fit in it.

Hrmm… I’m 5′11 1/2 and I barely fit in a Solstice. I fit just fine in both a Miata and an S2000 though. How do you figure the Japanese made two cars better-suited to fat American bottoms than the Americans themselves?

Handling sucks? Tell that to the weekend racers bullying Miatas in autox. It has badger grip. It’s a little heavy but it’s solid.

Auto-Cross is not the real world. It is a track, and it is usually in good condition. It is also committed to the memory of a driver.

In the real world, you have nice, long straights to build up speed and then a turn expectedly sneaks up on you. In these situations the MX-5 is incredibly forgiving and the Solstice, well, it’s scary.

I had a 1990 Miata and still own a 2003 S2000 and my wife and I have enjoyed both cars not simply for a quick dash to the beach, but also as a getaway vehicle for a lovely weekend. Luggage space in both is minimal when compared to any sedan, but is sufficient that we can and have driven with the top down and a weekend’s worth of clothing/shoes/jackets tucked away in the trunk. This is not a flaw which is easily overlooked, yet someone, perhaps even Maximum Bob himself, decreed that the look of the top was more important than the usefulness of the car.

And the weight issue is nothing more than pulling it out of the oven before it was well and truly baked. The Corvette released on a similar timetable (granted that the chassis was already sorted) is 17 inches longer, an inch wider, carries a V8 which is three times larger by displacement, and the whole car is only 12% heavier despite the need for larger everything to deal with the massive differential in both power and performance.

I think Maximum Bob got it right – it’s a 98% solution, while the Miata/MX5, S2000 and C6 are all 99.9% solutions. The original Miata had a top one could raise with one hand while sitting in the driver’s seat and one could store actual grocery bags in the trunk, top up or down. It has been renowned for being a bulletproof design and neither the original nor the current version are by any measure slow, unless one compares them to larger, far more expensive and more powerful cars.

I attend BMWCCA track weekends from time to time and there is a woman instructor who drives a normally aspirated, but race prepped 15 year old veteran Miata. As a credit to both her driving skill and to the basic chassis, this 1600cc car routinely passes far more powerful and more sophisticated sports cars, including the odd GT2 on R compound rubber. And it seems to always run.

This is of course anecdotal, but there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of battered old Miatas tearing around race courses every season, belying the idea that it is a slow car.

If we fast-forward ten years, it is possible that we will see the Solstice/Sky twins in a similar mission, but they will be penalized by needing more brakes and more breathing on the Ecotec to keep up with the much-lighter Miata/MX-5. I will be impressed with the Solstice/Sky after GM removes the unwanted girth and develops a top for the car which allows it to be used as other than a daytime boulevard cruiser. The frustrating thing about this car is that GM is proven to be capable of building class-leading engines, yet chose not to. They are capable of class-leading packaging, yet chose not to. And they are certainly capable of creating a convertible top which is easily lowered and leaves a modicum of room for luggage, yet chose profile instead. These choices, all of which were consciously or unconsciously made for a dramatic roadster, are proof that they were simply trying to create the illusion of a real car as a means to draw people into the dealership.

The reason that neither Ford nor GM are in the small car game is that they decided early on that it was not worth the trouble to find a way to make a profit when the low hanging fruit of optioned-up Oldsmobiles, Lincolns and trucks were there for the picking. Don’t you find it more than a little frightening that Ford’s partner is able to sell Mazda3’s here at a profit, while they lose money on the totally inferior U.S. Focus? Isn’t it a little scary that the Astra “business plan” includes importing them and selling them at a loss in order to establish an entry into the small car business? And, after all of the money that was poured into Saturn, they no longer have a basic small car which can be produced in the U.S. and sold competitively at a profit?

I know that you will answer that both the Focus and the Cobalt/Ion are examples of the ‘old’ Ford and GM. Yet I read the news on what’s coming from both, and we have nothing from Ford and GM is tantalizing us with Volt-vapor and reborn but thoroughly late-to-the-party Camaro.

You did concede the point that there are times when the accountants hold too much sway in Detroit, and the Solstice/Sky is more evidence.

Maybe the new Malibu and Aura are heads-on winners; perhaps the CTS is ready to take on BMW, Lexus and Infiniti for the top rung of the entry luxury field. All of this is just unproven at this point. In the meanwhile, having the Solstice come out on the bottom of the CR study, will prove disastrous to follow-on sales. Having a Solstice out there which folks will rent, only to find out that their mad weekend includes luggage storage in the passenger’s lap should they be so weird as to want to go somewhere in a roadster with the top down, will also shorten the public’s attention span on this vehicle.

This one was Mr. Lutz’ first big imprint on the “new” GM, and it is a 98% solution by his own definition.

You’ve made a great point that we should consider American alternatives. The lady who ended up with an Altima after not considering a Fusion (assuming it didn’t lose its Mazda6 roots on the way to the Ford store) missed what is undoubtedly a decent car. I’ll agree that it is possible I missed a decent car by buying a BMW before the new CTS was out. The Solstice, however, should not get anyone excited about going to the Pontiac store. It does not demonstrate superiority in its class in the way that the C6 does.

Finally, I suspect what has kept this thread going for over 100 pages has a great deal to do with the argument that a bunch of car nuts shouldn’t have at least a little skepticism when imagining themselves in a domestic car. As much as we would like to see it happen, I doubt anyone is missing the fact that GM and especially Ford squandered vital development money on trucks and other businesses at a cash-flush time when they had the opportunity to come up with a killer Impala or Taurus. Both of these cars had tremendous brand loyalty and could have within one model cycle totally changed the way that people felt about American cars. Instead, money was squandered on the two (D)Hummers, a revised Explorer and ever-more ridiculous looking pickup trucks.

It really is difficult to understand how a niche player like BMW managed to build a small FWD car which is admittedly not a major source of profit, while Detroit keeps on with the mediocrity of the Fucus and Cobalt. Ferchrissakes, the Mini was the first FWD car BMW ever built and used an out-dsourced Brazilian Chrysler engine!!! So pardon all of us if we’re just a little frustrated that neither GM nor Ford could put the engineering resources in place to build a competitive little car.

Personal. It’s uncomfortable for me since I don’t fit in it. But I know people who can happily drive it straight though a full tank of fuel without feeling any need to get out of the car until the needle’s hovering on E.

its powertrain delivers power in a totally unrefined manner

Is your impression based on the 2.4L or the 2.0L turbo car? This, by the way, doesn’t bother me in the base car. I’ll take power delivery even if it’s a little roughter over less power. 167 lb.ft@4500 vs. 140 lb.ft.@5000. The GXP? Yeah, I’ll take that.

its top is perfectly symbolic of GM’s time-warped management practices

Not SOTA and an afterthought for sure, and still its owners continue to love the car.

it has no useable trunk with the top down (and after you take the top down, you don’t want to spend the customary 45 minutes to put it back up…).

A briefcase fits, plus a notebook computer. A weekend roll. What else do you need? Last time a Solstice owner visited me, the top was up and fastened in under 3 minutes.

The Solstice then commits the CARDINAL SINS of small roadsters: Its handling sucks and it is heavy. Forget the skidpad numbers, the car feels as heavy as an Impala and inspires almost no confidence beyond 7/10ths.

Handling sucks? Tell that to the weekend racers bullying Miatas in autox. It has badger grip. It’s a little heavy but it’s solid. The steering is communicative if you just “listen” to it. You have to use the throttle a little more authoritatively than Miata to power-rotate and overcome the 350 lb. weight penalty, but that’s not so hard. Confidence beyond 7/10ths? I think that’s just a matter of getting sustained time with the car.

To me, the only person who buys a Solstice after knifing an MX-5 through the hills is a heavy imbiber of the G.M. kool-aid.

Or people who like to run down Miatas on weekends. Or prefer a more expressively-designed car. Or like a little more torque with their spin. The modern day equivalent of the kind of people who preferred Triumph to MG. Or Corvette to Porsche today.

Honestly, the Miata is a nifty, slick car. It ought to be having 18 years of noodling. And it’s informed by Mazda’s insight on car dynamics. It’s a classic design, balanced and loaded with finesse for relative pocket change. It’s underpowered but you can make the most of it. It’s a beautiful machine if you like it. But it’s only one formula for a sports car. More of the market is buying something else because some people want a spicier ride. However, I hope the Miata persists in the market. It’s a great centerpoint, a reference against what else can be done.

Phil