The flame wars regarding “imports” versus "domestics" have reached Fahrenheit 451. Ironically enough, I’ve doused those fires by banning “any comments that attempt to impugn this site's authors or its commentators for an anti-domestic car bias.” And I mean it. To those who would malign this website on that basis, I state for the record that TTAC writers apply their critical facilities without fear or favor, regardless of a manufacturer’s national origin. Although I haven’t asked my scribes to take a loyalty oath, I’m sure they love their country. What they don’t love is crap cars.
News flash: the publisher of this site, the author of the GM Death Watch, would like to see The General build an affordable sedan that kicks the snot out of the so-called imports. Why? I’m a pistonhead. I’d like to drive that car, and it would force other automakers to raise their game. I’m well aware that The Big Two Point Five’s supporters will perceive this statement as weak and irrelevant: a personal failure to place our nation’s best interests above personal passion. They believe that car journalists ignore the “fact” that promoting “foreign” cars endangers their fellow Americans’ economic well-being. They consider us the import-loving enemy within.
Back in the 70’s, when the import invasion was just that– an invasion of foreign-made cars by foreign-owned manufacturers– this argument carried some weight. But not much. If ever an industry needed a wake-up call, it was the U.S. automotive market. By and large, in general and in specific, The Big Three’s cars were crap. Now I’m not going to tender my exact definition of “crap.” Suffice it to say, many of the imports were better built, better handling, more fuel efficient and cheaper than their American competition. Equally important, the journalists who pointed-out the imports’ relative excellence were not responsible for their arrival, or the domestics’ abject failure to rise to the challenge.
Today, the “buy American” argument is totally without merit. A number of TTAC articles have noted the imports’ American design and manufacturing presence relative to The Big Two Point Five’s outsourcing. When GM, Ford and DCX build and import foreign-made cars and slot an ever-increasing number of Chinese parts into their vehicles, their supporters have no right to drape themselves in the American flag. They also have no right to label critics of GM, Ford and DCX products unwitting opponents of the American working class, when the companies themselves show no compunction about selling foreign-made products to their American customers.
Nor are The Big Two Point Five's Supporters on solid ground when they suggest that TTAC’s car critics have been so blinded by their love of “foreign cars” they can’t see that GM, Ford and DCX have caught-up with the competition. My writers know their way around cars. They know what makes an interior a pleasure palace or a penalty box. They understand the subtle differences between engines, transmissions, suspensions, brakes and steering. They are not in the thrall of European dynamics or style; they can appreciate a big, brash comfy cruiser as much as a gorgeous, sharp-handling sports car– regardless of the vehicle's country of origin. If a TTAC writer says a Ford product is two model cycles behind a comparable Toyota, it’s the truth– to the best of that writer’s knowledge and critical abilities.
The pro-Detroit flamers last refuge is reliability; I’m well and truly fed up with arguments on this score. Supposedly, the gains made by The Big Two Point Five’s products in the most popular reliability studies prove that their cars are now as good as anyone else’s (no matter what anyone says to the contrary). In fact, the closerthanthis results listed by these studies simply show that the battleground over automotive excellence has shifted. It’s no longer good enough for a car’s suspension not to break; it has to deliver superlative ride quality. A long-lasting engine isn’t a major advantage; it’s got to be smooth, powerful and fuel efficient. The real competition now surrounds perceived quality and, lest we forget, dealer service. I don't consider it biased to suggest that The Big Two Point Five have a long way to go in these areas.
In short, TTAC is an equal opportunity website. Do I really need to cite all the positive reviews this website has given The Big Two Point Five's products, or the negative reviews afforded imported cars? Tallying-up the hosannas and Bronx cheers within those two categories would reveal nothing but an invidious distinction. The cars and their manufacturers get what they deserve. Nothing more, nothing less.
So here’s the deal. If you want to hash out this issue, do it right here, right now. Get it out of your system. Do American cars suck, or are journos giving them a bum rap? You be the judge, jury and… executioner. But once you’ve had your say, you’re done. If you disagree with a reviewer over his or her assessments of a car, feel free to let rip. But I will NOT tolerate knee-jerk xenophobic attacks. All such comments will be deleted. Their authors will be banned. That is all.
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Good idea–as has been said by Samuel Johnson, invoking “patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
Did I miss something? I thought we were all having a good time.
Yes and no.
Amen, brother.
I’ll go a step further.
I WANT American cars to be better than the cars from other countries.
And I’m pro-union.
Amen.
From the owner of an import … and a Dodge. And I plan to keep ‘em both for as long as they’ll have me. :))
Amen to that too, Jonny.
As an owner of a Mazda and a Ford I feel like I’m fairly unbiased (yes I know they’re both FoMoCo products). I’ve also had Toyota and Dodge vehicles in the last five years. I’ve felt in the last year or two that American cars have gotten better and I have been fairly vocal about it. That is until I recently acquired my Freestar Limited. After the seventh day in the shop in the last two months I decided to stop at the Honda dealer to see what all the fuss was about the Odyssey. It really does feel like a whole step up in quality from my Freestar, even though I have the top of the line model. I’m now getting a little squeemish in my (Ford’s) hard pleather seat.
Also, my 02 Mazda Protege (read Mazda’s cheapest model) hasn’t been to the repair shop yet.
Please big 2.5, don’t make me out to be a liar.
Lesley, technically speaking, there are no domestic brands for us ‘nucks. ;-)
We’ve got foreign brands made here and foreign brands not made here, despite our tendency to use the US-perspective on domestic and import brands.
RF – I could not agree more. I own (and love) a Honda Accord and a Jeep Liberty. And lust for certain Porsche’s, Aston Martin’s, and BMW’s. Oh, and the C6 Corvette’s. I guess this makes me some kind of freaky automotive libertine.
I own a GM and a Honda. I think GM still makes the best trucks – most solidly built and most reliable (even over the mighty Toyota – and kinda how they have fallen). I was a true domestic lover with Camaros and Dodge Shelby Chargers – my favorite cars at that time. However, it was the constant repairs and work they needed and I couldn’t afford to pay for such. I went against my father’s wishes and his threats and bought an 85 Prelude with already 100k on the odometer (it’s ability to handle and accelerate impressed me so much I shunned displacement and forced induction for sky high redlines). My father said I’d have to sell it in a year b/c its “hamster” engine would not last with the way I thrash the cars and race them. That car lasted me until law school at 275k before the first time it broke down. When I was in college and my father’s 1 year old Chrysler New Yorker (loaded to the gills) kept on breaking down every week for months on end. He was forced to drive my car for almost 2 years with his “domestic” hiding in the shop. Well he now drives an Accord that has over 200k miles on it from brand new. He will not sell it (it did break down once – rear main seal failed just as Honda was discovering the problem – Honda paid for the tow, work and even his 90k timing belt maintenance for the inconvenience).
I own a GM pickup and love it. It has 120k miles on it but it’s like a maytag appliance. As for cars – I visit my bro-in-law and ride in his Impala and watch parts falling off, noises of concern, and when we get back his Cavalier with 120k on it looks like my old Prelude if it had 2,000,000 miles on it.
For cars…Honda & Toyota has the cream of the crop. They aren’t perfect but their consistency of reliable and good cars is just unmatched – I prefer Honda just b/c of its better focus on driving and after researching the company to find that the entire mahogany row are all engineers it makes sense as to why. Trucks, I’d tip my hat heavily towards GM as they don’t have these Rollover problems or cruise controls in 20M cars like Ford has. Dodge is just a distant also ran and really doesn’t do anything well. They just exist by carving out niches and selling there until competition beats them away (think Caravan and PT Cruiser).
chanman: Remember the early 70s Manic GT? Built in Quebec! :)
I’ve upset fans of just about every brand with my reviews at one time or another. I’ve been called an import hater and a domestic hater. Life would be easier if I made every review positive. Then I wouldn’t be implying that anyone bought the wrong car. But I just can’t do it.
There aren’t many bad cars anymore, despite all the anti-domestic talk on the net. But there also aren’t many great ones. Instead, we have lots and lots of average cars.
I’ve found anti-domestic talk most virulent on Acura boards. Why this would be the case I don’t know. Perhaps because Acura was the first foreign luxury brand to make cars in the U.S.? People on these boards like to talk about how much better the Japanese-built models are. They ignore that the Japanese-built RL is the most troublesome Acura in recent memory. In general, emotions guide these debates much more than facts do.
Finally, I’d like to point to my Amazon review of Mickie Maynard’s book, The End of Detroit. Ms. Maynard likes to talk about how excellent her Lexus is. Yet her book is sloppily written, with a large number of errors. Does someone who does shoddy work themselves deserve a problem-free car? Do all these Americans who hate American-built cars perform flawlessly at their own jobs? Right.
My two book reviews on Amazon; Maynard’s book is the second one:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1PDK0LSZTX7LB/ref=cm_pdp_reviews_see_all/104-9303787-3087160
The Korean imports that GM is rebadging are by far the best things that they sell in the B category. History repeats itself as once again the Cobalt/Pursuit pair are starting to show the old Cavalier/Sunfire characteristics of helping you to get to know your dealer technical adviser really, really well. America still can’t make a Swiss watch, but it’s awfully good at producing grandfather clocks and always has been.
I’ve often thought that when one purchases a vehicle based on national origin – one is doing a significant disservice to that nation.
For example, if one buys a Chevrolet Uplander minivan (considered by many to be the worst in the field) instead of a more capable offereing, GM is undeservably motivated to “keep the status quo.” By encouraging GM to “keep the status quo” – GM will grow weaker, not stronger.
Therefore, if you really want to help GM or Ford, go out and buy the best car for you – even if its a Toyota. Throw away national origin. Reward those companies that have done a good job and motiviate those companies whose offereings are lacking.
This is an interesting discussion to me. I used to really feel strongly that I should buy American (though I did secretly lust after some BMW’s and Porsches). But, after having a couple of Chevy Citations from the early 80’s (ugh), a 90 Mercury Sable (tie rod broke at 30K miles – fortunately at parking speed), and a 94 Mercury Villager (Nissan/Ford partnership built in America), I gave up. Each of these cars was better than the one before, but none of them inspired confidence in their reliability or were especially pleasing to own or drive.
The Japanese did it right – they started slowly, developing their products and focusing on providing value and reliability. This approach provided a solid foundation for continued growth – and gives them the reputation to survive the periodic problems that pop up – as with Toyota recently. Now they provide cars with all the attributes and features that used to be a Detroit statement. The whole approach was a long-range plan and it has paid off well. I see the Korean companies taking the same approach now.
In my view, the big 2.5 have been guilty of a limited – and thus constantly changing – vision. They have tried flash and features (Pontiac plastic, heads-up displays, On-Star, etc.), styling changes, horsepower, pricing and finance deals. But, they have not mastered the basics of building a range of solid, reliable cars that are pleasing to drive and own. Until they focus on the basics for the long-term, they will not catch up. It may be too late already.
The bottom line is that it is now a global market and companies must produce quality to survive. The reviewers must tell the unvarnished truth about the cars, because the market will reveal the truth anyway.
I think its gotta happen. TTAC-reviews often surface on forums and this topic usually flames-on to no end…that’s fine, but it isn’t necessary here.
Our readers deserve better subject matter in our comments section.
The root problem is that too many people both cannot deal with uncertainty and, perhaps as a consequence, don’t like to do much thinking. They prefer simple rules where one choice is perfect and the other is awful. They avoid facts that might disrupt their peace of mind. These people tend to take the most extreme stands, and to back them up with the most emotion.
Hello!! I am a Shop Foreman/Master Tech in a Mazda/Subaru dealership that also services GM cars. In the last 33 years, Ive worked in Fiat/Lancia, Subaru, SAAB, Ford, Oldsmobile, Alfa-Romeo, Chevrolet, and BMW dealerships, plus an independent shop, and from working on all these(and many other) cars, here is MY take:
The domestic buyer has lower expectations than the import buyer. They bought that GM because their father owned them, his father owned them, and his father before that etc. It;s amusing to hear the GM customers in the waiting room talk of replacing engines and transmission in their cars as if they were in for a face lift.
Put an Olds up in the air(name your year), and you could scrape off enough oil leakage to lubricate 4 sets of wheel bearings. And the owners never complain of it!
In ‘91 the Mazda Navaho(Ford Explorer Sport) came out. I can’t tell you how many owners came in saying…”Ive owned Mazdas for 15 years, and have NEVER had an oil spot on my garage floor til now! WHAT’S THE DEAL??!!” When I told them their Mazda was actually a Ford, some called me a liar–til I showed them the manufacturer’s decall on the door post. First they seethed in anger, then cringed in shame. They thought they were buying a Japanese import!
You also have to ask…just where did all these import buyers come from anyway? The answer is simply: We ALL had domestic cars, and blindly bought them as did generations before us. Once the imports proved superior engineering in lieu of annual body sheetmetal changes, the battle was lost. The parents bought that inexpensive Corolla for the kid in school, then figured out it got way better economy than their Caprice wagon and stayed out of the service department to boot. Toyota came out with a bigger Corona, the ‘73 gas crisis hit, and it was all over from there. Once the head of a household went import, it was only natural for the rest of the family to follow suit. And they never returned–there was no reason for them to try domestics again.
I remember a Chevrolet ad–circa ‘72– showing an Impala in the garage parked next to a Toyota. The tagline read”Go ahead and buy that import, they make a great SECOND car”.
I also have a problem with GM selling import cars, but it’s not OK for consumers to buy imports.
A telling sign–every domestic car ad I see touts low price, never engineering or content. Says it all right there.
It’s entirely possible that SOME domestics are better than their import counterparts in terms of reliability, value, performance, etc. But as it now stands–and I see this EVERY DAY on the job–nobody cares anymore.
Lesley, ehhhmmmm…. early 70’s would roughly be a decade before I was born. (1984)
I have good childhood memories of an ‘86 Aries K. Well, except the one time the brakes failed downhill while mom was driving my brother and I to school. That was a lot less cool.
Recent family cars are a ‘90 Taurus (stored), ‘93 Buick Century and ‘94 Nissan Quest (first non-American make for my parents since the original VW bug)
I’m sure any new car would be much better in terms of safety and ergonomics, but the Buick’s antiqued control systems are my personal bugbear. The highbeams simply don’t work.
But I digress, they’re really all ‘imports’ =D
Farago — stop reading right now.
Here’s an exceptional article on the lunacy of only buying British by Jezzo (Jeremy Clarkson)
http://tinyurl.com/jqegg
Same story over here.
Amen. The content and mood of this article is long overdue. I grow weary of domestic apologists always whining that critics simply have an import bias. In particular, the posts by Gearhead 455 are annoying and predicable. If you want to hear from a union goon Big 2.5 apologist, just read his lame posts. They are as illiterate as they are biased. Please, if you are going to post, as least have a 6th grade grasp of the English language. I have owned a Pontiac that was junk (an ‘82 Firebird), as well as a 1990 Ford Ranger that would leave puddles of oil in the driveway.
I had to put a quart of oil in that junker about every 3 weeks. I liked the truck otherwise, I liked the interior, I liked the size and power of the vehicle, and it had a nice bed that would a hold a lot. Also, it was pretty good to tow a boat with. But the oil slick in the driveway got really old. Eventually, the engine died, and I got a replacement Jasper engine. But they failed to fix the oil leak and that new engine eventually died, after the warranty expired of course. So I put a second engine in, and traded it for a Mazda Protege. You can imagine what fun it was having two engine failures. The engine coolant got mixed in with the oil, somehow. It made a hellacious smell coming out of the tailpipe, I tell you what. Kind of sickeningly sweet.
The Pontiac was parked in a garage but managed to rust anyway. It had the 2.8L v6 and had no power, getting on the highway was practically an act of suicide. Not fun. Plus, the car just fell apart, with wires and stuff sagging out below the dashboard. The car just had a clumsy feel to it, and the trunk was not very useful. The overall fit and finish was poor. You just felt like everything in the car was cheap plastic.
In contrast, I had a 93 Geo Prizm (a Toyota Corolla clone), and this was quite good. The car had excellent fit and finish and good power, getting on the highway was no problem. It also got excellent gas mileage.
I now consider myself a Mazda guy. I have owned a 99 Protege that was excellent, fast and fun with excellent fit and finish and good gas mileage. The interior was inexpensive without looking low rent, the transmission shifted well, and road noise was not a problem. I drove it from Louisville, KY to California with no problems.
I now have a 90 Mazda Miata that is just sweet. The car holds the rode like it is on a rail, it accelerates very well, and the sound the engine makes is fun, fun, fun! The top is easy to put up and take down, and the trunk, though small, will actually hold something. I dreamed for years of having one of these and am not disappointed. The paint is excellent, it still looks almost brand new. Zoom, zoom, indeed! As someone once said, this car really is so good it makes you want to stand up and cheer. Go Mazda! Why can’t the Americans build a car like this? The Solstice and Skye seem like inferior copies of this car. They look good, but have no trunkspace and the top is harder to raise and lower. And what about Ford? They used to have a car called the Mercury Capri but it was inferior compared to the Miata.
I guess I missed something somewhere. I never really saw any flaming (well, serious flaming) and did not catch any import-versus-domestic bashing. I can understand your frustration if it indeed happened and you are taking the appropriate stance, however, based on what I have seen to date (and it may have been deleted prior to my reading) there has not really been any incendiary remarks.
In gearhead’s defense, he has stated that he is simply offering a counter-opinion to all of the ‘domestic bashers’ and ask that ‘we’ at least give domestic’s offering a fair shake.
RF keeps a pretty close eye on the comments. I think this is why the ones still visible are a cut above the discussion you’ll find elsewhere on the Internet.
One reason I’m conducting my own reliability research is that people continue to provide repair histories that suggest that the domestics are still turning out junk, and that Japanese cars are flawless. Even CR’s ratings don’t sugguest nearly so wide a gap. So either popular perceptions are inaccurate, or CR’s results actually seriously understate the difference between American and Japanese cars.
I don’t know the answer. But I’ll find out.
Mr. Farago thank you, thank you THANK YOU. I’ve been through several automotive boards and when the import vs domestic debates start they never end. Arguments about bias are completely circular and aimless because they’re based on individual opinion and judgement. Discussion stalls because arguments are refuted as personal bias.
Hopefully this will keep discussion at a certain maturity level, and stick to specific criticisms rather than broad, generalized, often unrelated issues some readers feel are implied (which is nonsense).
My impression of the GM Deathwatch is that it’s a realistic and sometimes unforgiving examination of how GM is running its business. Occasional bright spots don’t change the fundamental course the company is still on, which would eventually lead it to a major reorganization. It’s got nothing to do with the nationality of the brand or bias. As someone interested in automotive business and cars in general, having the industry’s biggest company for more than 50 years looking down the barrel of a gun makes me interested and watching every move closely and critically. It’s nice to know there are still some people who aren’t going to call a multi-billion dollar turnaround a success based on reduced losses and subjective JD Power survey ratings.
KTM,
You missed the point entirely — there is no defending gearhead, as he refuses to let facts get in teh way of his thinking.
This is not the Faith About Cars.
You mean there is still such a thing as an “imported” and a “domestic” car? With US companies sourcing parts for cars assembled overseas and foriegn companies sourcing parts for cars assembled in the US, I didn’t think there was any longer a point to such designations.
Big 2.5 – testing patriotism with every new model!
I realize this contribution is neither philosophical, nor based on expansive statistics – it is anecdotal observation that has been repeated over and over.
The most recent example was last weekend: I rented a Malibu for 4 days and as soon as I got in the car, before even turning over the engine, I pulled the seatbelt over and saw that the fastener had been attached to the belt backwards. That is, in order to fasten the safety belt, both the lap and the shoulder belts had to be twisted 180. Had the buckle been attached appropriately, the belts would have lain flat. I spent an entire 6 minutes turning over the buckle on the strap – it wasn’t easy! From this, and the mere 2500 mi on the odometer, I surmised that the buckle had probably been put on the belt backwards at the factory.
I know, I know… this is trivial. It doesn’t affect the ride or the ability of the car to endure countless northeast winters. It was less annoying than the vibration in the dash over 50mph, or the sound of the car straining at stool at speeds over 30 mph (Lesley, that’s doctor-speak for struggling to have a bowel movement.)
Still, I felt that this said it all – this car was put together by people who just don’t care. It was passed along by supervisors and inspectors that don’t care. It was installed in a factory by management that didn’t tell its employees that they would be rewarded or penalized for whether or not the seatbelt was installed correctly. Does it really matter if the labor that put this car together or not was unionized? Why don’t the higher-ups at GM take responsibility for this? Most importantly, how can I trust that the rest of the car was put together correctly if the seatbelt – a pretty simple device – was not put together correctly.
I’m not trying to say imports are necessarily better. In fact, I think some imports may be worse. After pricing some new cars, I have to admit I can’t afford the cost of ownership related to the horrific depreciation associated with Audi and VW.
So what? My mother has always bought “American.” The last time she bought a car, she fully admitted that she hated her local Buick dealer, that the previous car had had countless problems, and that a Honda or Toyota would almost certainly have been a better value. What kept her in Buick? Patriotism. So, here’s the same question that any social scientist would ask you: How much longer will Americans continue buy “American” just because it’s “American”? More succinctly, at what point will the dollar value of buying “American” equal the value of buying the best car for the money. Sounds like in California these questions have already been answered.
wstansfi
As a lifetime G.M. employee I am the first to defend our product to anybody that knocks it.As R.F. and others have pointed out this debate is endless and TTAC has too much class to let it go on any longer.
I own 3 vehicles a GRAND AM GT,a FIREBIRD rag top[my baby] and our workhorse a JIMMY. Yes they do break and sometimes I get very POed at my employer, I have been known to call it a GRAN DAMN ,I d`ont know if I can spell intake manifold gasket,but I can tell you what it cost.
Having said that,I have owned G.M.my whole life and allways will. G.M have looked after me since I was 18 and I pay them back with loyality.From where I stand the debate is over.
P.S I think gear head brought something to TTAC
Robert:
I couldn’t agree more. It’s about the car, period. When I think about the “patriotism” advantage US automakers have had over the years, myself only recently seeing through the guilt, I get a little embarrassed. US automakers didn’t respond to the call for nearly three decades. Only recently have they made the changes necessary to compete globally (without the patriotism effect), and they only did this because more and more American’s refuse to buy inferior products out of guilt.
I care about US automakers for one reason and one reason only. Their products represent the abilities, intellect, and creativeness of all Americans. I want Ford and GM to build great cars because I want to be proud of my country.
I guess even now with two Hondas in the garage, I am struggling with my incessant desire to be a patriot on the dealer’s lot.
dj
p.s. I think Ford and GM need a “No” man. This person could single-handedly save them. “This interior design element is crap; redesign it. This car doesn’t get good gas mileage; reengineer it.” Could it be that simple?
DJ:
I’m volunteering my free time to be that “no” man. I WANT to say “yes,” mind you. I really do. Sadly, I would be saying “no” alot. I would like to be called Dr. No. Can I wear a lab coat?
Ford and GM: Your cure has arrived, now take your friggin’ medicine!
We love your country too!
If a European’s point of view could be of any interest, here’s some facts. Sweden (and I believe Norway even more) is a retirement home for American oldtimers from the fifties and sixties, even the forties. In the summertime, I can’t drive ten miles without seeing one or two more or less well maintained, but many are in mint condition. To understand our fondness for these cars, you have to go back to the time when they were new and look at the competition. American cars had everything European cars didn’t have at that time, the looks, the comfort, the power, and most important-just like drinking a bottle of Coca-Cola; it gave you an image of being an American. After the war, everything that was American was good and everyone’s future. It was the cars, the jeans, the haircut, rock, jazz and folk music, the surfing, the authors, the homes, barbecue, and so on. Also, lots of Scandinavian immigrants reported home about well off living styles. For many Scandinavians, this feelings haven’t faded to this day, and amazingly, younger people are taking over (or importing) the old cars and love them just as much as their grandfathers did. Smart guys drive smart cars, but they can’t win the hearts like guys with macho vehicles. By the way, two motorcycles of three in Sweden are Harley Davidsons.
But we are not driving American cars from the seventies, eighties or nineties. Why? An American car should be wider and longer than any European, with a V8 engine that could move a freight train. The styling should be artful and showy, with a paintwork color never found east of the Atlantic.
In 1955, my grandmother’s brother retired in Milwaukee, and went back home to his birth place for the first time ever in a brand new Ford Customline, painted two-colored light and dark blue. No one here had seen a two-colored car before, and I can still remember every minute I was going with him in that car.
The late American cars didn’t have much of this, and subsequently, didn’t sell in Europe. But then came the PT-Cruiser. My son got one, and after 55k, no trouble whatsoever. I don’t think any European brand could match that record, and he still loves it. The American spirit is not dead after all; the new Mustang and Chrysler 300C hold the fort, to our delight!
Mr. Farago: Good onya for doing it this way. I do get the feeling however, you might need to relax a little. =O) I do understand and appreciate your passion, though. On the other hand you could start a whole new website with a team of researchers to to substantiate the truth, what ever it may be.
I could relate stories of my experiences and cars but let’s just go to my bottom line. Toyotas and Hondas are better built cars than Fords and Chevys. Have been for some time. I say that as an owner of a 2000 Ford Contour since new, with 70,000 miles that has never been in the shop. Thats pretty good. On the other hand, I avoid dealer repair facilities like the plague and have effected some repairs myself.
There are many ways to skin a cat. Domestics don’t need to be more reliable than imports. They just need two things:
- Offer more bang for the buck
- Take care of their customers
They haven’t done either and that’s why they’re where there at today. And, to be honest, I don’t see them doing it any time soon.
Jan,
I’ve heard this before, but you say it so well! Perhaps the 300 represents a European view of what an American car should be, which is why it was created after the Germans took over. It’s even got a more upright windshield like cars had decades ago.
Joe,
I was just on the phone with Chrysler Customer Care yesterday. Wasn’t getting anywhere. At one point the guy said, “It’s not my job to use common sense. It’s my job to follow company policy.” When I asked him if I could quote him on that, he repeated it more slowly. And when I suggested that instances like mine were exactly why they were still losing market share, he didn’t disagree.
My testimony. I’m a Ford guy, as was my father before me. (His father was a GM guy, but I don’t know the reason for the schism.) My wife and I own a Toyota Sienna, Honda Element and Audi S4. We’ve owned a Mercury Tracer, Hyundai Excel, Saturn SL1, VW GTI VR6, and Honda CR-V.
I’m a proud and patriotic American, the first generation in my family born in the United States. When I brought the first new car my wife and I owned (the ‘92 Saturn SL1) to my mother’s father–a naturalized citizen and union man–to show him, his only question was “is this American?” (We had an excellent experience with the SL1, both in terms of reliability and dealer treatment, by the way.)
I am proud that our Sienna and Element were built by American workers.
I want to “buy American”, whatever that means. I would love for the replacement for my S4 to be a Ford product. I will give the big 2.5 the benefit of the doubt in terms of quality and reliability. (Heck, as a VAG fanboy, I have to be willing to cut the domestics the same slack in reliability.)
However, the only thing I can do to help Detroit is to do what I do today, which is assess my needs for vehicles as rationally as is possible in this emotion-laden product category, and spend my dollars accordingly.
jaje In your blog is the answer to the American Mfg.s problem. If trucks make a come back, then GM FORD & CHRYSLER have the best products and are in the best position to exploit this market. But if the return to small efficient cars is a permanent thing than I don’t think the big three can catch up. They have seeded the small market for forty years to the foreign brands. From the 1960.s valiant, corvair, falcon. to the seventies, pinto, vega, etc. the big three put their worst foot foreward in small cars. Then when they had an imperfect but possibly fixable product ie. corvair they simply dropped it and went on to more important (read large products) things. (This dropping products at the slightest hint of a downturn still haunts our American companies) With a forty year head start, the foreign brands have fine tuned the hell out of their once crude rigs and made them segement leaders. I remember how toyota in the mid sixties sold cars. They had just adequate small 4 cylinders to sell but they brought them over loaded with radios and other options the big three were charging extra for, it got them in the door and the rest is history.
This is a serious question. How many of you are fairly sure that both GM and Ford will cease to exist someday in the near future?
In my 32 years I have owned the following: Mitsubishi, Ford, Pontiac, Honda, and 2 Mazdas.
The Mazdas were hit and miss, but wicked fun to drive.
The Mitsu and the Honda were bullet-proof, but not the most fun.
The Ford and the Pontiac were both unreliable and unsatifying to drive. This is Ford and GM’s worst sin… The only thing people remember about them is how unreliable their Taurus or Grand Prix were.
My RX-7 was a maintenence nightmare, but I still have fond memories because it was FUN!
Daimler Chrysler has it right. Say what you will about the 300, Challenger, the Calibre, etc. At least DCX cars have some personality. I don’t care how many horror stories I hear, part of me will always want a Hemi powered Magnum.
GM? They are getting better, but not fast enough, thanks to its bloated management/union structure. They also seemed to determined to make sure every car they make has an achilles’ heel. Almost all of its vehicles, save the ‘Vette, have a reason not to buy it. Like the Caddy’s cheap interiors, the Solstice’s lack of trunk, and the Impala’s outright blandness.
Ford? What the hell? They can’t figure out what to do. Lately they seem to be a fountain of dumb ideas. “Lets dump any car name that doesn’t start with F!” “SUVs start with E!” “Lets destroy the last of Lincoln’s dignity!” Its as if the Mustangs success was purely by accident.
The foreign automakers are not without their faults as well:
Honda: Lately, they seem determined to make their vehicles ugly and heavy. Have you seen the new CRV?
Toyota: Wow, those are an awful lot of recalls lately…
Mazda: Quit hanging out with Ford… He’s a bad influence.
Suzuki: Please go back to making cheap, fun cars and mini SUVs… And stop rebadging 2nd rate Daewoos and Equinoxs.
Subaru: B9 Trebeca… Nuff said.
BMW: So… Damn… Ugly… Almost make me forget about iDrive.
Mercedes: Lexus is still shaming you.
VW: The Rabbit? Are you kiddin’ me? How about working on reliabilty instead of bringing back a stupid name?
Hyundai: Too damn dull.
See? I’m an equal opportunity nit-picker!
So let me get this straight. You have banned people from arguing or debating the motives or bases of your authors opinions when it comes to whether they are against American cars, and instead given us your assurances that they are not?
Wow, how very American of you to squelch that debate.
Color me confused.
You are not confused. You are correct.
mikey – I think it’s great to have some people willing to assert the GM point of view as a counterpoint to what is overall definitely a negative outlook on GM product. That said, like I brought up earlier, the debate has to be mature and about the products; accusing people of being “Jap lovers” or “anti-American” isn’t the issue in most cases, despite some posters’ opinions. I am not accusing you of anything, just bringing up what is usually a huge obstacle to a proper discussion about the issues.
Another issue that is unavoidable is that some people care more about driving and are more fickle than others, and probably want different things from their cars. Many people (enthusiasts especially) will be less tolerant of bad design in things like suspension tuning, engine design and interior ergonomics. To me, it’s clear some manufacturers are run by people like that, and others are simply selling widgets that happen to allow people to get places (something GM has admitted in the past and I would *strongly* argue still does). Passion is not quantifiable yet but for some it is perceivable. For those that do care, it is definitely noticeable when you drive a vehicle, whether or not it was engineered by people passionate about what they are producing. I personally don’t get that impression from most GM and Ford vehicles though.
With the “most,” you are correct.
I’ve been saying for some time that the area GM is most clueless about is steering and handling. They’ve developed some world-class engines in recent years, but the way they tune their steering and suspensions kills road feet and makes the cars all feel larger than they are.
Ford has been better at turning out great driver’s cars. I owned a 1996 Ford Contour SE that was clearly developed by drivers for drivers. So much so that for 1997 they watered it down a lot in an attempt to appeal more to mainstream buyers. Go back and read reviews of the 1995 and 1996 Contour SE, and you’ll see what I mean. The ride was extra firm, the steering quick with good feel, and the buckets were very tight. My wife hated them, but I miss them a lot.
Ditto the Focus SVT and even the current Focus ST.
Of course what both of these products have in common is that they were developed primarily by Ford of Europe. Ford’s U.S. operations has been in constant turmoil pretty much forever–they’ve never been able to stick with a strategy for more than a couple of years, and this has hurt them big time.
Family ownership should have been a stabilizing influence, Sadly the opposite appears to have been the case. For this the family has only itself to blame.
Robert,
I regret to see that this column was written but agree that it had to be done. I could not believe the bile that came forth from the last GM Deathwatch article (and I do not think Gearhead should shoulder all of the blame, fellow commenters). The import vs domestic debate is emotional and any article that strays into that territory will face those emotions at its peril.
However, we are all grown-ups here and this is not talk radio (it’s not, right?) so we should all be able to express our own personal opinions in a civil tone and back up statements with at least a modicum of substance.
I think we live in a great car buying era. For the most part, your reviewers criticize vehicles for not being “good enough” not for being “bad”. When the biggest knock on a new domestic piece is that it has mismatched plastic or hard seats or an import lacks “soul” or has questionable ergonomic or design issues it means that we are talking about the margins of excellence not excellence itself.
My business forces me to remain unbiased (or at least, to supress my bias) against vehicles import or domestic or I lose business. I’ve driven vehicles from almost every major vehicle manufacturer (I have not, as yet, spent a lot of time in new Hyundais or Kias) and they have all been problem free or have had problems that have been very easy to fix. My level of service at dealers (of all stripes) has been exemplary (I’m nice to them, they’re nice to me… go figure).
Let the debate rage on but let the debate be framed by reason and decency. Something may actually come out of it!
Michael Karesh,
I owned a `96 Contour SE and then I owned a 1998.5 Contour SVT. I sold it a couple of years ago and to this day I regret I did so. That car had it all and I thought the dark blue interior made it distinctive!
I have said to many friends at Ford that they had me as a loyal customer until they dropped the Contour and failed to replace it with something else.
Oh wait, all the really cool Ford cars are sitting on Mazda lots now!
Ford Fusion… where’s my 5 or 6-speed manual and SVT version? If it’s anything like my Contour, I’ll be there with my chequebook!
Import / domestic .. it is tough to tell these days .. especially north of the 49th!!! … should I buy a Honda built in Aliston, Ontario, Canada .. .or a GM built in Korea or Mexico? Which is better for my Canadian economy? Which is better for my patriotism?
Writers for this site, other sites, and the major magazines are auto enthusiasts at heart and they write articles assessing cars based on that paradym and a set of generalized purchasing criteria. For any given purchase, for any given person, the purchasing criteria may be completely different. I bought a lumina van because I needed an appliance that had an engine I could maintain when it got old … and I could get it for $6 grand less than any competition. Next purchase may be a GM to (likely mis-guided) attempt to keep Oshawa Jobs and maintain my house value. But for now .. .it is the drivability and luxery of the FX that won me over ..
In summary … Understand what the writers are telling you … make your own criteria … drive lots of cars … and love your choice ..
I live in Oshawa … most of my friends work at GM. I work at a supplier (though not at the GM account). I would love to support my town and my friends by purchasing a GM car … but they build the IMPALA … I just can not take that big of hit on enjoyment … If I was buying a truck .. sure … but a passenger car … sorry… I seriously looked at the Malibu when I purchased my altima … the Trailblazer family when I purchased my Pilot … and the CTS and SRX when I purchased my FX … but IT is just not there when comparing these products head to head .. it is not an allegience issue …
I would LOVE for GM to build a car that I can proudly call my own … but the two-seaters and flatbeds where they compete well … are not in the cards right now … maybe a new Holden sourced GrandPrix? Maybe the Saturn Aura
I seem to have appreciation for the different characteristic of cars … as the diversity of the cars I have owned and loved is wide… starting at my first car
Datson 510 (used … loved it .. but it was crappy)
Datson pickup (used .. got me to and from hockey)
Mazda RX7 (used … wow … fun)
Honda Prelude (first new car … ho hum … never an problem)
Chevy 4-door blazer (worst experience ever .. .sold it after 6 months and bought a …)
Isuzu (geeze … can you imagine I ditched a $30K 4-door beautiful blazer for this … but it was a great choice … can not even remember the model … car was fun … paid cash it was sooo cheap during the sell off … and replaced the whole engine top end at 100K … guess I got what I paid for!)
Plymouth Sundance (used … ok … relative defaulted on the loan and I GOT to bail them out)
Chevy Lumana van (ok … I TRIED … a nice white dustbuster .. it did the job done)
Saturn (good basic transportation bordering on enjoyable to drive)
Olds Aurora (used … LOVED the luxery in this car – obviously age has me teatering toward luxery from drivability – I sold it with 250K Miles on the car … and never did more than brakes and tires … likely would have had another … if the axe on the division had not fell)
Nissan Altima 3.5SE (loved the car … even with the wonky tranny and stearing … it hit home on the space, passing acceleration, comfy fit for me, and 4.5 years later .. it still looks good … classic lines will do that)
Infinit FX (hard to tell .. it has been in my driveway for 3 days … so only time will tell … I HOPE it will give me the versitiliy and drivability .. while a touch of the luxery I miss from the aurora)
During purchase events … I drive cars … and drive cars … and drive cars … Each event brings with it different criteria .. and as you see … quite varied results … but I can not find overall fault with the assessment of the writers on this site .. or in fact with the major magazines to which I subscribe …
I likely should rework this … and delete most of the dribble … but my wife wants to go shopping … and I am good … because it is 60 miles of back roads away … and 120 miles on the road far outweighs a couple hours of “antiquing”
Enjoy your driving … rob
I’ll weigh in with my comments and perspective then honor Mr. Farago’s wishes and shut up.
I love cars. I own a lot of cars. From a ‘56 Continental Mark II and ‘68 Mercury Cougar 7.0 Litre GTE to a ‘03 SVT Focus and ‘02 Mercedes Benz CL600 I recently purchased. There are too many more to list in between.
I particularly like the post by Jan Andersson. My gripe with American cars today is that they are not American enough. They need to stop trying to be European or Asian and get back to what they do well.
When I think about Toyota, I think about my neighbors down the street who live in a beige house and have three beige Toyotas. To quote John Kenneth Galbraith: “the bland leading the bland”.
As for this obsession with reliability that borders on being a fetish, I find it somewhat perplexing and I don’t think I’m the only one. I seem to recall comments made by Peugeot when they left the U.S. market about not being able to understand that the majority of American car buyers wanted nothing more from their cars than reliability. No place in this country for quirky Gallic LeCars. Just give them Toyota Corollas that they can drive 200,000 miles with nothing more than oil changes and gas. How exciting.
I’m going to get rid of the CL600. Purchased Mercedes WIS on eBay and installed it on my laptop. It scared me. I understand now why these cars depreciate so much. Hope I can sell it before the hydraulic pump for the Active Body Control fails.
One last thing and I’m gone. The SVT Focus is more fun and enjoyable to drive than the CL600. I’m going to keep the Focus.
Robert F
This is the first time I have posted on your site although I have read it regularly for many months. Your reader forum is by far the best as the worst posts have been deleted or excluded.
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However, spirited debate should not be excluded as long as the posts are not racist or attack other people. Note I said people and not people’ opinions.
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Believe it or not that spirited debate makes these forums interesting and compelling. To do otherwise puts this forum at risk of becoming an echo chamber.
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As long as ground rules are estabished as to not calling other people names idiots morons,etc and excluding racist terms I think all posts should be allowed.
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Many of the most virulant xenophobic anti-import car posters are fine as long as they are forced to make their case without name calling, using racist language or questioning the patriotism of other posters.
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In fact they make compelling reading as posters on many sides of a debate can clearly embarrass themselves with information that is non factual or wrong, when postings containing the actual facts are subsequently posted by others.
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If someone wants to make a claim that buying a domestic is better than buying an import or they disagree with a review based on alleged import or domestic bias, then let them post but they will typically be rebutted unless they have any facts to back up their claims.
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I love reading the many postings on both sides and I would hate for this forum to become sterile. Remember most people don’t realize what makes compelling reality television is usually conflict between people.
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Just keep everyone civil and non racist and I think your forums will be fine.
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Sherman Lin
Robert,
I couldn’t have put it better myself, especially regarding reliability. I think you make an excellent point; that all cars are fairly reliable in terms of not breaking.
When I shop for a car, I look at ones that I like, that I think drive well (for their given purpose), and ones that “feel” good. I currently own a Suburban and an F150. However, my next vehicle could well be a BMW or a Lexus or a Honda. I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.
I would love to buy a car that is 100 percent American made (designed and built). However, no such vehicle exists. Therefore, I buy what I think is the best vehicle for what I need and/or simply the one I want.