You do realize that BMW uses transmissions made by General Motors?

Generally, however, German manufacturers do not share components because they are as arrogant as Detroit used to be, and they can get away with it, because European customers place much less priority on reliability than American customers do.

Note, however, that VW loses money in North America, and “successful” Damiler-Benz ran Chrysler into the ground, and still has had to ask its German unions for concessions. Which is why VW is planning to sell…a rebadged Chrysler minivan. Looks as though at least one German automaker isn’t above rebadging an American vehicle.

jurisb: When i mentioned Stealth and Probe, I wanted to show that a cheetah never changes his spots.

And what you really showed was that you don’t know what you are talking about, because the Fusion/Milan/MKZ is not merely a rebodied Mazda, as the Probe was.

Generally, it’s best to compare apples to apples.

jurisb: If ford avoided engineering when it was quite prosperous, what should make me believe that they did so while bleeding cash.

What you or anyone else “believes” Ford did is irrelevant. The FACTS are that Ford is NOT using rebodied Mazdas for its cars.

Do you also realize that the V-6 used in the Mazda6 was designed and built by Ford? Which punches another big hole in your example…

jurisb: See, geeber if I hated America, i wouldn`t give a shit about her economy, and wouldn`t read all economy reports.

Judging by your posts, you need new reading material.

jurisb: your comment is a bit ridiculous about well performing us economy.

When you have something to back up your opinion, let me know. Methinks you will have to get new reading material before the well-informed can take your opinions seriously.

Virtually all of them. Give me your address, and I’ll send you a copy of Consumer Reports annual auto issue (which will be distributed within the next month), which rates the reliability of all vehicles sold in America, including VWs. Ford products have regulary bested VW products in that survey.

You’ll be so much better informed, and won’t make the mistake of comparing the reliability of European cars (especially those based on VWs – LOL!) to the reliability of American cars.

I think we can safely extrapolate the performance of Skoda and Seat from VW’s (abysmal) showing.

I’ll happily compare any American Ford to the Skoda or Seat.

jurisb: probably the one with most non-american contents. Like mazda built fusion with ford tin.

Mazda and Ford worked together on that platform…it was a joint effort between the two companies. They collaborated on the project. Ford did not simply put new sheetmetal on the Mazda6 to create the Fusion/Milan/MKZ. Ford did what a smart company does – use an available resource to produce a very good product that appeals to customer.

jurisb: Do you understand that there is no such deal as american-japanese joint venture. there is omly japanese cars with US copmanies byuing stakes in them.

Wrong. Ford is COLLABORATING with Mazda to produce vehicles. It owns a 30+ percent stake in the company (enough to own a controlling interest under Japanese law).

Ford has worked closely with Mazda and Volvo on new vehicles, including the Fusion/Milan and the one used by the European Focus, Mazda3 and small Volvos. All THREE companies provided vital input for those projects.

The fact that these joint efforts have produced excellent vehicles for all three companies shows that Ford knows how to properly leverage its resources to produce good products.

jurisb: i did some practical research, and ripped apart some claddings off 2 cars-Ford Probe 97` and Dodge stealth 95. guess what ,even those parts that were different from their original mazda and mitsubishi versions, were completely designed and stamped by- mazda and mitsu.

You do realize that today is February 15, 2008, and that the vehicles you examined are over a decade old, and thus completely irrelevant to what Ford is doing TODAY. (And those cars were DEVELOPED more than 10 years ago if they were in the market in 1995 and 1997.)

When you research what is happening TODAY in the automobile industry, let me know. That will be “practical” research…not to mention relevant research.

jurisb: yes VW has some quality issues but at least they don`t have pathetic fit and finish,. their interiors are rock-solid.

I’m sure VW owners appreciate the interior craftsmanship and fit-and-finish while they are waiting for the tow truck to take their beautifully built driving machine to the dealer…

jurisb: Us economy has bested japanese in every single component/ Ok geeber- here it goes.
Sectors where Us looses-
External debt, national debt, GDp per capita, Gold reserves, Currency reserves, Export value, trade balance, industrial output, manufacturing value, Bank assets, manufacturing percentage within GDP.

Take an economics course, then you will learn how to actually tell when an economy is performing better. The U.S. economy beats Japan’s on employment growth, productivity growth, and overall economic growth…sorry to burst your bubble. Some Japanese companies such as Honda depend on the American market to keep them in business – the home market is too weak.

I’m sure that those unemployed Japanese appreciate the fact that their country has more gold reserves than the U.S.

As for the Japanese economy having a higher percentage of its GDP consist of manufacturing output – so what, this is irrelevant. The U.S. economy has made the transition faster to a mixed economy, where services are a larger percentage of the total GDP.

Sorry, but manufacturing output is not the sole sign of a country’s economic vitality (and, as I pointed out, U.S. manufacturing output has been INCREASING) anymore.

It’s not 1948 anymore.

jurisb:Actually all I care is manufacturing percentage as part of GDP. If US GDp represents credits and services more than 85% of GDP, I can`t consider your economy a serious one.

Which is the root of your problem regarding your “critique” of the American economy, and why anyone who has passed Econ 101 would consider your views to be outdated at best, and hardly “serious.”

jurisb: And yes Japanese hav had a recession or slowdown, but they have preserved their manufacturing companies. US couldn`t do it even having a boom.

“Preserving companies” is a waste of time and resources. It does not matter what companies produce the output.

What matters is whether TOTAL manufacturing output increase or decreases, and, as I’ve said in the U.S. it is INCREASING.

jurisb: And don`t make a fool of yourself naming cadillac and buick sales in China as significant numbers, if we count off those cars that are rebadged chinese or german opels, you have a sales number that of Dacia, not more.

You are the last person who should label anyone else with the “fool” epithet. Cadillac and Buick have been selling vehicles based on revised American platforms (Buick LaCrosse and Cadillac STS) and the ZETA platform (Buick Park Avenue). They aren’t just “rebadged” Opels.

jurisb: And whenever I talk how bad is US economy ,you start something about Europe, France or Africa. I don`t care of them.

We can’t talk about the U.S. economy in a vacuum, especially if we are talking about how it is (allegedly) underperforming, so we compare it to other economies. Besides, this thread was originally about Venezuela, so the discussion has never been limited to the U.S.

Incidentally, you brought up China, Europe and Japan, so YOU are the one who “started” talking about other countries.

jurisb: Even if they are coughing blood, I am talking just about USA. Period.

The real problem is that you have no clue as to what you are talking about, period.

For whatever reason, you apparently don’t like America, which is fine, that is your choice and your right, but the ignorance displayed on your posts shows the limitations of this worldview. America has problems, I certainly won’t deny that, but I want informed criticism, not silly rants or mindless America bashing.

At the very least, I hope that you’ve learned why Daimler is responsible for the vehicle’s Chrysler produced, and why it bears responsibility for running Chrysler into the ground. You need to take off the ideological blinders that are limiting your understanding of many issues…including the state of European automobile companies.

In the meantime, do yourself a favor and take an ECON 101 course so that you stop coming across as completely clueless on economics, and do some serious research into the automobile industry, and I don’t mean looking at 1990s Fords…

At this point, using Iraq as evidence in an argument about anything OTHER than Iraq is fruitless. If your trying to make the point that we invaded Iraq to free it’s people, then you are mistaken. The invasion was admittedly a mistake. Once we made that mistake, every decision afterwards is hard to judge because all the choices were bad.

And, yes, I do know the difference, but it’s a fine line.

On China, I disagree with your data. I don’t believe that we are “dying” for anything we sole source from them. Certainly, if trade stopped tomorrow it would be disruptive, but no more to us than them.

I will be glad to return to this subject at the end of the year. I suspect our relations with China will be little changed, recession or no.

A better question would be: Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

jurisb: US should trade with countries on equal terms, and equal values, not invade other countries under a pretense of promoting democracy.

You mean equal values as practiced by France and Russia, which conducted trade with pre-invasion Iraq in violation of U.N. trade sanctions?

Please tell me what “equal values” that policy supports.

jurisb: While American products hardly sell in europe , and hardly in China.

Oh really? Buicks and Cadillacs (made in China, of course) are some of the best-selling cars in China.

jurisb: Of course US still has a lot of manufacturing companies, but much less what it had 30 years ago, while japanese haven`t lost a single fucking electronics or machinery company in last 50 years.

The Japanese economy has been in a serious recession since 1990, despite not having lost a single electronics or machinery company.

The U.S. economy has bested the Japanese economy in every important meausure of economic performance.

Which undermines your whole argument.

jurisb: geeber i even don`t want to go into discussion with you…

A wise move on your part…

jurisb: You probably you should go and research more data on american economy and it`s current issues.

More research is advisable on the part of one poster, but it’s not me…

jurisb: About cars- Show me a single american made car that would have a quality similar to a simple Skoda Roomster or Seat Altea? you can take even luxury american brands.

Regarding reliability (i.e, the number of times the car must be taken for unscheduled maintenance or repairs), several Fords and GM cars would easily beat any Skoda or Seat. The Chryslers wouldn’t, but, as we all know, Chrysler has been under the control of Daimler since 1998, and Daimler reliability is terrible (although Daimler vehicles have great build quality – nice paint, great panel fit, great upholstery, etc.).

Skodas and Seats are reworked VWs, and VWs have regularly ranked near the bottom of reputable quality surveys conducted in the U.S. (those conducted by J.D. Powers and Consumer Reports).

You can be forgiven for not knowing this because Europeans are less demanding than Americans regarding reliability.

If you are talking about build quality – I’m sure that the new Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS and Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan would equal the Skoda and Seat.

Your rant isn’t winning any minds. No one will disagree that we have a trade imbalance with China. So what? What are they going to do about it? Stop selling us stuff. Okay. What exactly would that do to us? No crappy kid toys? If they cut off relations, then we might simply renege the debt. Did you ever think of that? What are they going to do about it unless isolationists like you get in power and destroy our military first?

Lastly, if you want to deny that Boeing, Cessna, Caterpillar, Deere, Sun Micro, IBM, and scores of other companies export products and services around the world then go ahead. It won’t make it so.

Boeing exports planes…and we export MORE than planes, so the need to have airplane exports match the imports from China only exists in your imagination.

jurisb: please name me the companies of those high technology equipment.name me these companies of heavy equipment and machinery, and the value of exports.

Um…Microsoft? Caterpillar? General Electric (locomotives)? Plus, hundreds of smaller companies that thrive in export markets. Here in Pennsylvania many smaller companies export their products. Sorry, but America’s export-import picture is much more complex than you make it out to be.

jurisb: what Us strategy has to do with detroit3?

You are the one who went straight from what America exports, to the failure of American cars to penetrate European markets with this post:

People in europe don`t buy American products for simple reason- either they don`t exist, or their quality is so low that no discount can make them buy it. You can sell your Sebring for pennies but people still don`t buy it, they buy 80K overloaded Lexuses. Welcome to reality. you know , chrysler in Latvia is offering 5000Euros discount for minivans , Sebrings and 300c but people don`t buy them anyway.

You are the one who equates the Detroit Three with America’s “export strategy.” The simple fact is that there is a rational reason for why Detroit does not export many cars made in the USA, and America’s export strategy is not centered on automobiles (and has not been for decades, despite the bleatings of Detroit management regarding Japanese and South Korean markets).

jurisb: Anyone can come in US make a factory and then export import, reimport or whatever except US companies?

“Anyone” includes BMW and Mercedes. Two blue-chip European companies that find the USA an attractive place to manufacture vehicles.

The U.S. companies don’t export many vehicles manufactured in the USA because they already HAVE engineering facilities and plants in Europe, Australia and South America that design, engineer and build vehicles for those respective local market.

Why would Ford, for example, export American-made vehicles to Europe when it already offers a full line of vehicles that are built right there and are designed for local tastes and needs?

jurisb: And Daimler benz is to fault for subpar quality?

Um, yes, considering that DAIMLER people were in charge of Chrysler, which means that they bear ultimate responsibility for what left the factory gates.

Incidentally, given Daimler’s absymal quality ratings over the past decade, this should not come as a surprise.

jurisb: Geeber, was Chrysler`s quality better before merger? Was it better after?

Getting better, and no, it didn’t.

jurisb: did Mercedes order Chrysler to use supercheezy plastics for interiors?

Daimler was IN CHARGE of Chrysler, it put its people in charge of running the company, which means that it had oversight over all decisions, including the materials used for the interiors.

Perhaps you do not understand this concept, but when Company A owns Company B, and Company A has veto power over Company B’s decisions, and puts its people in charge of Company B, it bears the ultimate responsibility for what Company B produces. This is what happened with Daimler (Company A) and Chrysler (Company B).

Which is why the condition of Chrysler is Daimler’s fault.

jurisb: Iran ,Iraq and North Korea- being supporters of terrorism? So you believe that governments of thes countries decided to give money to terrorists who would do what? kill Americans?

Yes…hello, wake up and smell the coffee, these companies have been covertly supporting terrorism (not necessarily limited to actions against the United States) for years. For example, check out what North Korea has done to South Korea, or even Japan (blowing up a Japanese airliner in the 1980s).

There are reasonable differences over how to deal with the threat that they pose, but the bottom line is that they are supporters of terrorism.

jurisb: The value of goods manufactured in America has been increasing in last years? What do you mean? Production volume in amount? or inflation added to the price?

Production volume and actual dollars generated.

juisb: Why do your house cost zillions yet are built of gyproc and cheapest materials?

Most Europeans couldn’t even afford the American houses built of “gyproc and cheapest materials.” That is why more of them live in apartments than their American counterparts, and why their houses tend to be smaller than their American counterparts.

Food stamps? Subprime foreclosures?

Europe has welfare, too, and the housing bust is affecting European countries as well. Britain, the Netherlands and Germany are particularly vulnerable.

jurisb: Let`s see baby boomers punching right in your balls with their 44 trillion pension bat!

The same thing is happening in Europe, too, only its far worse…your population is older, and there are fewer younger workers to support them than there are in the U.S.

Getting back to cars, you should start learning just how absymal the quality of your vaunted European automobile manufacturers really is…they survive on cachet and the driving experience and lease deals (because owners don’t want to worry about maintaining the vehicle after the warranty ends). Unfortunately, they are also losing customers (someone recently posted statistics that show how customers of European vehicles are much more likely to switch brands than owners of Asian vehicles), as an increasing number of people have the “been there, done that” attitude toward European cars. VW cannot compete with Honda/Acura, or even Toyota, which is why it loses money in the U.S….BMW and Mercedes have survived by expanding into lower-priced segments, which generates more volume, but ultimate cheapens their reputation, and generates (usually unfavorable) reliability comparisons with other marques.

A few things are involved with the trade imbalance in my opinion. Take note that my macro economic knowledge wouldn’t get me a grad degree at even a third tier school.

First, the trade imbalance is a lagging indicator. It takes time for the markets to adjust (like cars in Canada). Second, many of our exports do not get credited because a lot of intellectual property is owned by off shore entities to avoid our stupid taxes. Most other countries do not tax exports nearly as much as we do (a good reason to switch to consumption taxes). Another reason is that we are wealthy. We will keep importing because we CAN. It will take a long while for that to change.

Airplanes? High technology equipment? Heavy equipment? Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are plenty of American manufactured goods that are exported around the world.

jurisb: People in europe don`t buy American products for simple reason- either they don`t exist, or their quality is so low that no discount can make them buy it. You can sell your Sebring for pennies but people still don`t buy it, they buy 80K overloaded Lexuses. Welcome to reality. you know , chrysler in Latvia is offering 5000Euros discount for minivans , Sebrings and 300c but people don`t buy them anyway.

The reason that American automakers don’t export cars from the U.S. is because their strategy, since before World War II, has been to either open wholly owned subsidiaries in a particular market (the Ford strategy) or purchase existing companies and use them to supply the market (GM with Vauxhall, Opel and Holden).

You use Chrysler as an example, but it has to export vehicles if it wants a presence outside of America. It has no production base outside of North America.

If those Chryslers are subpar, I’d suggest that you point the finger at Daimler-Benz, as the vehicles were developed under its stewardship (that is certainly a stretch for that word!).

The Germans once again proved that they have no clue as to how to appeal to the American mass market, even if they use an American company to do it.

jurisb: How can weaker dollar strenghten exports, if US almost doesn`t manufacture anything? Wekar dollar would be an advantage of a manufacturing state, not China imports patient.

The value of goods manufactured within the U.S. has been INCREASING for the past few years.

Incidentally, several EUROPEAN automobile manufacturers either have built, or are planning to build, plants within the U.S.

An increasing number of their products sold here are sourced from lower-cost areas (U.S. in the case of Mercedes and BMW; South America and Mexico in the case of VW) because manufacturing costs in western European facilities are too high, and the quality is too spotty.

Sorry to rain on your parade with some facts.

KatiePuckrik: In 2000 Iraq started trading its oil in Euros. People said “You can’t make a profit on that! The Euro is too weak against the dollar!”. In 2001, the Euro appreciated 25% against the dollar and Iraq started making money hand over fist.

Um, Iraq wasn’t supposed to be making money hand over fist because of the trade sanctions that were supposedly agreed to by all of the major western countries…except that France and Russia were making backroom deals that violated the sanctions. This is how he was making all of that money…

KatiePuckrik: Iraq? Iran? North Korea? Do they have something in common? Axis of something…..??

It had something to do with them being supporters of terrorism, and causing mischief around the world. We can debate on the proper response to their mischief, but turning a blind eye to it and pretending it doesn’t exist (which seemed to be the preferred European response) isn’t it.

KatiePuckrik: Recently Mr Chavez has been mulling a switch from dollars to Euros (source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6202791.stm) and wouldn’t you believe it? The White House is getting a little testy with Mr Chavez……

The White House has been more than a little testy with Chavez long before this, so there goes that theory.

I hope that Bush (and whoever is elected in November) leaves Mr. Chavez alone and allows him to simply implode…that way people can see him for what he really is. Of course, this will require the “anyone-who-is-against-America-is-my-friend” crowd to admit that leaders can be cruel, ruthless and oppressive on their own, and it’s not America’s fault. Such a change in thinking would undoubtedly cause their heads to explode, so I’m not holding my breath…

Now I appreciate that this post string could get very messy, but I believe that due to the rise of China and India, suddenly no-one is afraid of the United States anymore. It’s kind of like the school bully who’s just seen 2 new boys come to his school and they’re big and mean!

Just wait until more countries start trading their oil in Euros and watch the fur fly. In fact, here’s a little thought to mull over:

In 2000 Iraq started trading its oil in Euros. People said “You can’t make a profit on that! The Euro is too weak against the dollar!”. In 2001, the Euro appreciated 25% against the dollar and Iraq started making money hand over fist. Iran, soon after, starting trading its oil in Euros. Then, North Korea starting trading everything in Euros and dumping US dollars (Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2531833.stm). Iraq? Iran? North Korea? Do they have something in common? Axis of something…..?

Recently Mr Chavez has been mulling a switch from dollars to Euros (source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6202791.stm) and wouldn’t you believe it? The White House is getting a little testy with Mr Chavez……

I mean, unless you guys are a bunch of Stephen Colbert clones, or inadvertently used the phrase without meaning any connection… then my goodness, you must all be mad. What a bunch of testosterone laden hawks you are. Please, take up something like pickup basketball as an outlet for all that aggression and spare us.

1) He really could decrease the amount of oil imported to this country (not really, but let’s just suppose). With our technological resources, combined with a large driving force, we would soon develop (4 years or less) other forms of energy and tell the NIMBIs where they can stick it when they whine about the nuclear plant, wind farm, oil drilling rig, etc. in their “backyard.” In the meantime, there would be rationing, either government enforced such as was done during WWII or economically enforced, can’t afford the high price brought about by the law of supply and demand.

2) Nothing happens because we buy our oil elsewhere. The oil market it international. The only difference in Texas oil versus Venzuelan oil versus Saudi oil is the level of sulfur in the oil (sweet oil=low sulfur).

I don’t know personally, but another poster basically said that Venzuelan oil is high sulfur, the least desireable oil. Under either scenario, an embargo would hurt him for more than it would hurt us. While there are several refineries that purchase high sulfur crude oil because they can make a slightly better profit than purchasing the more expensive but easier to refine “sweet” crude they can still operate using sweet curde; it would just raise the price a little (a few cents on the gallon). In the event that we were forced to rely less on foriegn oil, we would certainly suffer short-term damage, but assuming we made it through the few years of extreme pain, we would come out the other end stronger. Meanwhile he would lose his major source of money.

If you buy 20 gallons of gas from Exxon-Mobil instead of Citgo, someone else won’t be able to buy that 20 gallos of gas from Exxon-Mobil and they’ll buy 20 gallons of gas from Citgo.

As long as N gallons of gas are produced and sold, Chavez gets his share. To hurt Chavez, you can’t buy any gas.

If everybody in the US said, “No, thanks,” to Chavez, stopped buying gas from Citgo and bought their gas from Exxon-Mobil, Exxon-Mobil would buy the surplus from Citgo and sell it to you. All the Citgo franchises might go out of business and that might raise the retail price of gas for a time. But Chavez would still get his cut.

Or if, as a nation, we embargoed oil from Venezuela, we’d make up the difference by buying it from someone else, like Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s former customers would then buy it from Venezuela. There would probably be some distribution inefficiencies. Which would probably be ‘fixed’ by a third party buying it from Chavez, selling it to us and lying about where he bought it.