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	<title>Comments on: GM&#8217;s Other Complicated, Expensive PHEV</title>
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	<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/</link>
	<description>The Truth About Cars is dedicated to providing candid, unbiased automobile reviews and the latest in auto industry news.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:15:07 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: davey49</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-627491</link>
		<dc:creator>davey49</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-627491</guid>
		<description>They will sell every plug in and two mode VUE they can possibly make. The question is; How many can they make?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->They will sell every plug in and two mode VUE they can possibly make. The question is; How many can they make?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: joeaverage</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-625701</link>
		<dc:creator>joeaverage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-625701</guid>
		<description>Saw a new Vue (gas only) in traffic yesterday. MUCH nicer than it&#039;s earlier designs. I&#039;d buy it on looks. Have no idea what is under the hood or what it weighs. I agree 3800 lbs is too heavy for a CUV. 

Ideal weight for a CUV would be about 3200 lbs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Saw a new Vue (gas only) in traffic yesterday. MUCH nicer than it&#8217;s earlier designs. I&#8217;d buy it on looks. Have no idea what is under the hood or what it weighs. I agree 3800 lbs is too heavy for a CUV. </p>
<p>Ideal weight for a CUV would be about 3200 lbs.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Cavendel</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-625651</link>
		<dc:creator>Cavendel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-625651</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;netrun Says: 
800k miles of testing is four engine durability tests. If you get lucky, you can run one engine back-to-back so you’d only need a total of two engines. It should take you about three months, tops.&lt;/em&gt;

How does that math work? Wouldn&#039;t this take more like 9 or 10 months with two engines?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start --><em>netrun Says:<br />
800k miles of testing is four engine durability tests. If you get lucky, you can run one engine back-to-back so you’d only need a total of two engines. It should take you about three months, tops.</em></p>
<p>How does that math work? Wouldn&#8217;t this take more like 9 or 10 months with two engines?<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Raskolnikov</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-625362</link>
		<dc:creator>Raskolnikov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-625362</guid>
		<description>People hammer the 2 mode out of ignorance.  If they were to drive a 2 mode -equipped vehicle (transit bus or Yukhoe) their tone would change.
The system is amazing - pricing is not.

@netrun--the system has been in use since 2003 in buses then scaled down for light vehicles, but its essentially the same.  Almost 100 million service miles have been accumulated for total bus fleet...so they know what&#039;s going on.  The challenge is stuffing it into a package as small as the VUE and controlling the thermal episodes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->People hammer the 2 mode out of ignorance.  If they were to drive a 2 mode -equipped vehicle (transit bus or Yukhoe) their tone would change.<br />
The system is amazing &#8211; pricing is not.</p>
<p>@netrun&#8211;the system has been in use since 2003 in buses then scaled down for light vehicles, but its essentially the same.  Almost 100 million service miles have been accumulated for total bus fleet&#8230;so they know what&#8217;s going on.  The challenge is stuffing it into a package as small as the VUE and controlling the thermal episodes.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: netrun</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-625251</link>
		<dc:creator>netrun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-625251</guid>
		<description>Just wanted to chime in on the &quot;extensive testing&quot; GM has done on their system.

800k miles of testing is four engine durability tests.  If you get lucky, you can run one engine back-to-back so you&#039;d only need a total of two engines.  It should take you about three months, tops.

And, since it&#039;s a &quot;totally new technology&quot; you can write the test spec however you like and decide on what your acceptable criteria are after the test has completed.

If anyone thinks this has never happened before, just look around at all the crap GM has been selling all these years and you&#039;ll see plenty of examples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Just wanted to chime in on the &#8220;extensive testing&#8221; GM has done on their system.</p>
<p>800k miles of testing is four engine durability tests.  If you get lucky, you can run one engine back-to-back so you&#8217;d only need a total of two engines.  It should take you about three months, tops.</p>
<p>And, since it&#8217;s a &#8220;totally new technology&#8221; you can write the test spec however you like and decide on what your acceptable criteria are after the test has completed.</p>
<p>If anyone thinks this has never happened before, just look around at all the crap GM has been selling all these years and you&#8217;ll see plenty of examples.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: monkeyboy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-624471</link>
		<dc:creator>monkeyboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 13:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-624471</guid>
		<description>i thik that a V6 is EXACTLY what these anemic Hybrids need. It befuddles me to think that just because you&#039;re in a flyweight slot car, you should be content with using and hour glass to measure 0 - 60!

Most here haven&#039;t had the opportunity to drive a Two Mode Hybrid. I did. I wnated to know the reasons they&#039;re getting hammered here.

Practically seamless performance. Better fuel economy and real power. Trans knew where it was and what gear it wanted every shift, up or down. Mash it and it hauls; for a heavy SUV.

Go drive one for yourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->i thik that a V6 is EXACTLY what these anemic Hybrids need. It befuddles me to think that just because you&#8217;re in a flyweight slot car, you should be content with using and hour glass to measure 0 &#8211; 60!</p>
<p>Most here haven&#8217;t had the opportunity to drive a Two Mode Hybrid. I did. I wnated to know the reasons they&#8217;re getting hammered here.</p>
<p>Practically seamless performance. Better fuel economy and real power. Trans knew where it was and what gear it wanted every shift, up or down. Mash it and it hauls; for a heavy SUV.</p>
<p>Go drive one for yourselves.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: KixStart</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-623662</link>
		<dc:creator>KixStart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-623662</guid>
		<description>By the way, is that a shot of the factory or what?  It rather looks like 4 Vues lined up in a dealer&#039;s service bays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->By the way, is that a shot of the factory or what?  It rather looks like 4 Vues lined up in a dealer&#8217;s service bays.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: KixStart</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-623641</link>
		<dc:creator>KixStart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 03:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-623641</guid>
		<description>Ed Niedermeyer: &quot;Shouldn&#039;t these engineers be working on the Volt, considering that its development is &quot;pushing the time envelope,&quot; according to Rick Wagoner?&quot;

No.  One way or another, this $16K-overpriced thing will sell about as well as the longer-EV-legged but $20K-overpriced Volt.  Which is to say, nearly not at all.  At least it will probably get here sooner.

Oh, and the &quot;V6 power&quot; isn&#039;t going to help.  Probably too late to get GM to fix that.

Rob,

Yep.  A diet and exercise are what&#039;s indicated, not a new wardrobe and accessories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Ed Niedermeyer: &#8220;Shouldn&#8217;t these engineers be working on the Volt, considering that its development is &#8220;pushing the time envelope,&#8221; according to Rick Wagoner?&#8221;</p>
<p>No.  One way or another, this $16K-overpriced thing will sell about as well as the longer-EV-legged but $20K-overpriced Volt.  Which is to say, nearly not at all.  At least it will probably get here sooner.</p>
<p>Oh, and the &#8220;V6 power&#8221; isn&#8217;t going to help.  Probably too late to get GM to fix that.</p>
<p>Rob,</p>
<p>Yep.  A diet and exercise are what&#8217;s indicated, not a new wardrobe and accessories.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Captain Tungsten (of GM)</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-623391</link>
		<dc:creator>Captain Tungsten (of GM)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-623391</guid>
		<description>@indi500fan.  That was true in 1990.  It is categorically NOT true today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->@indi500fan.  That was true in 1990.  It is categorically NOT true today.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: indi500fan</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-623342</link>
		<dc:creator>indi500fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-623342</guid>
		<description>&quot;Shouldn&#039;t these engineers be working on the Volt&quot;

Ed, you apparently haven&#039;t worked in this industry. Often less people means more progress.
At GM, programs are rarely understaffed.
Overmanaged perhaps, but rarely understaffed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->&#8220;Shouldn&#8217;t these engineers be working on the Volt&#8221;</p>
<p>Ed, you apparently haven&#8217;t worked in this industry. Often less people means more progress.<br />
At GM, programs are rarely understaffed.<br />
Overmanaged perhaps, but rarely understaffed.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: rob</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-623282</link>
		<dc:creator>rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-623282</guid>
		<description>Maybe instead of adding thousands of dollars of PHEV tech, they should work on making the Vue weigh a bit less (base FWD 4 cylinder model weighs ~3800 lbs), try to get the Cd a bit lower, put in taller gears, etc. 

It seems amazing that car companies (not just GM) don&#039;t implement simple fuel saving measures. For example: Cobalt XFE, or the Civic HX (older generations). These vehicles probably drive just like any other model, but offer significant mileage gains.

Full disclosure: I own a &#039;98 Civic HX. The car has a slightly different engine from other civics of that year, 14&quot; aluminum wheels, low resistance tires (at least originally), tall gearing, and tips the scales at 2400 lbs. I have never gotten below 30 mpg (despite my best attempts), consistently get around 35 mpg in mixed Long Island driving, and get 40+ on long highway trips. The car feels and drives like a normal car. 

Perhaps a better example would be the last generation civic HX, which supposedly offers the same mileage as my HX, but offers better (five star) crash test ratings and side airbags. 

I find it frustrating that simple solutions are not being further exploited to make a modern small vehicle that can match or beat the fuel economy of a ten year old, hooned to death, 100,000 mile beater? Oh, and doesn&#039;t look weird (Yaris, Fit, Civic).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Maybe instead of adding thousands of dollars of PHEV tech, they should work on making the Vue weigh a bit less (base FWD 4 cylinder model weighs ~3800 lbs), try to get the Cd a bit lower, put in taller gears, etc. </p>
<p>It seems amazing that car companies (not just GM) don&#8217;t implement simple fuel saving measures. For example: Cobalt XFE, or the Civic HX (older generations). These vehicles probably drive just like any other model, but offer significant mileage gains.</p>
<p>Full disclosure: I own a &#8216;98 Civic HX. The car has a slightly different engine from other civics of that year, 14&#8243; aluminum wheels, low resistance tires (at least originally), tall gearing, and tips the scales at 2400 lbs. I have never gotten below 30 mpg (despite my best attempts), consistently get around 35 mpg in mixed Long Island driving, and get 40+ on long highway trips. The car feels and drives like a normal car. </p>
<p>Perhaps a better example would be the last generation civic HX, which supposedly offers the same mileage as my HX, but offers better (five star) crash test ratings and side airbags. </p>
<p>I find it frustrating that simple solutions are not being further exploited to make a modern small vehicle that can match or beat the fuel economy of a ten year old, hooned to death, 100,000 mile beater? Oh, and doesn&#8217;t look weird (Yaris, Fit, Civic).<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: cjdumm</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-623222</link>
		<dc:creator>cjdumm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-623222</guid>
		<description>GM&#039;s harebrained, scattershot approach (badge engineering, market segment duplication, cannibalization) is a continuing trainwreck.  

It comes from the management school that teaches that if one man can dig a 3&#039; by 3&#039; by 3&#039; hole in one hour, five thousand men could dig the same hole in a fraction of a second.  

Ineconomies of scale, writ large.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->GM&#8217;s harebrained, scattershot approach (badge engineering, market segment duplication, cannibalization) is a continuing trainwreck.  </p>
<p>It comes from the management school that teaches that if one man can dig a 3&#8242; by 3&#8242; by 3&#8242; hole in one hour, five thousand men could dig the same hole in a fraction of a second.  </p>
<p>Ineconomies of scale, writ large.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: Raskolnikov</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-623221</link>
		<dc:creator>Raskolnikov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-623221</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m excited to see how the excellent 2 mode hybrid performs in the VUE.  I suspect it will blow the &quot;mild&quot; BAS out of the water, along with the Escape Hybrid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I&#8217;m excited to see how the excellent 2 mode hybrid performs in the VUE.  I suspect it will blow the &#8220;mild&#8221; BAS out of the water, along with the Escape Hybrid.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: monkeyboy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-622912</link>
		<dc:creator>monkeyboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-622912</guid>
		<description>Wow.  The point is that you can&#039;t speed it to production by simply throwing &lt;em&gt;more&lt;/em&gt; people at it. The key is throwing the &#039;&lt;em&gt;right&lt;/em&gt;&#039; people at it. 

That&#039;s already done.

Back away and let them work unencumbered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Wow.  The point is that you can&#8217;t speed it to production by simply throwing <em>more</em> people at it. The key is throwing the &#8216;<em>right</em>&#8216; people at it. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s already done.</p>
<p>Back away and let them work unencumbered.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: SherbornSean</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-622761</link>
		<dc:creator>SherbornSean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-622761</guid>
		<description>Monkey, I have no idea what you are writing.

Yeah, Ed has a point.  In general, GM needs to get used to the fact that they can&#039;t continue to make a variety of bets an many different platforms, models and technologies.  Ford actually is way ahead of them on this, out of necessity.

Chrysler on the other hand has $0 for any bets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->Monkey, I have no idea what you are writing.</p>
<p>Yeah, Ed has a point.  In general, GM needs to get used to the fact that they can&#8217;t continue to make a variety of bets an many different platforms, models and technologies.  Ford actually is way ahead of them on this, out of necessity.</p>
<p>Chrysler on the other hand has $0 for any bets.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: monkeyboy</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-622481</link>
		<dc:creator>monkeyboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-622481</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it would make sense at all.  There are more than enough qualified engineers from the PHEV truck and SUV available for the Volt. 

Don&#039;t proliferate the old tenets of poor management.

Besides, the &quot;9 Pregnant Women&quot; philosophy is supposedly on it&#039;s way out.

Please let it die...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I don&#8217;t think it would make sense at all.  There are more than enough qualified engineers from the PHEV truck and SUV available for the Volt. </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t proliferate the old tenets of poor management.</p>
<p>Besides, the &#8220;9 Pregnant Women&#8221; philosophy is supposedly on it&#8217;s way out.</p>
<p>Please let it die&#8230;<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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		<title>By: ferrarimanf355</title>
		<link>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gms-other-complicated-expensive-phev/comment-page-1/#comment-622451</link>
		<dc:creator>ferrarimanf355</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 21:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=58261#comment-622451</guid>
		<description>I thought the Vue Plug-In uses the same tech as the Volt, or close to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- google_ad_section_start -->I thought the Vue Plug-In uses the same tech as the Volt, or close to it.<!-- google_ad_section_end --></p>
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