dak56: It’s always good to see a royal bashing 5 years after a model is released. Rewind back to 2002

It's now 2007 and the Envoy is exactly the same as it was when it was introduced in 2002.  It was hardly a class-leader then. The competition has improved. The Envoy has stagnated.

the Envoy achieved Motor Trends SUV of the year or truck of the year whatever, compared to it’s similiar market, it did what it was supposed to do.

And in 1963, when the Rambler American "achieved" MT's Car of the Year, "compared to it’s similiar market, it did what it was supposed to do." BUT Rambler/AMC didn't make any substantial changes in it as the competition from Europe and Japan became more sophisticated.

Where is AMC now? Exactly where GM will be in a few years if they don't wake up and realize in today's market you can't keep selling a run-of-the-mill five-year-old design and remain competitive.

When the Acadia is 5 years old…it will get bashed also.

And deservedly so, if GM lets it rot on the vine like they do all their other decent designs. GM sees vehicles like the Acadia as the end point. Toyota et al see them as a starting point — and therein lies the secret of their success.

TheHammer: Is that the same as $5,000 in incentives that Toyota is dumping on their new slow selling Turdra?

I'm not sure why you feel compelled to make this point on three posts, but there are a few points worth mentioning.

1. The Tundra is not slow-selling, June sales were up 146%. They're on track to meet their 200k per annum target. Obviously, the incentives helped. It's what they're supposed to do.

2. Even if you dispute the above, Toyota can afford incentives. GM can't. 

3. As I stated previously, Toyota's major mistake in this regard: their product mix. Now that they've increased production of the larger truck with the larger engine, the incentives will slow.

The Envoy is beyond saving. I wouldn’t change a thing, I’d stop selling it! There are better propositions to tow, to go off road, to haul people.

Since you asked what I liked, the GM vehicles I like at the moment are the Silverado, Avalanche and Corvette.

None of their passenger cars are up to snuff, in my opinion. The closest to being competitive are the Aura and the G6.

The Cobalt SS is pretty hot, but it’s being discontinued in the current supercharged form.

As far as build quality goes, if this is any indication I was looking her Envoy yesterday and by gosh, you can actually see the difference in gaps between the leading and trailing edges of the doors.

Your guess regarding seatbelts is just that. Head-on into a tractor-trailer at highway speeds equals death-even-with-seatbelts.

A thought: TTAC could use a series on “How an enthusiast teaches his/her teenager to drive.”

The Envoy has been perfectly suitable for its intended purpose. It’s a fine daily driver and very comfortable. I drove one (actually, it was a Trailblazer) the entire length of Long Island and back and it was very nice.

Obviously the interior is trash, but GMs newer interiors are class leading. The Acadia is vastly better in every way. So much so, it will relegate the Envoy into the history books very soon.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=47050

Their test vehicle had a loose ball joint, but after that was fixed they still noticed no improvement in handling. Their tester even had the optional air suspension.

That’s pretty bad. The fact that GM pulled the rollover warnings is even worse. Not only do you have to make sure your drive it like a truck, you would probably need to drive it like a medium duty truck. No excuse for that at all. My 97 Yukon is no where near that bad and it sits much higher.

Excellent point. I’ve driven everything from military 2 1/2 tons to early 70’s pickups – and while trucks will never be Miata’s – I’m amazed at the huge differences between vehicles in the same class. Why does crap handling seem to be engineered IN to some vehicles?

The handling characteristics of the Envoy and its sister under the skin, TrailBlazer, are dangerously bad. They pitch and roll like a bobblehead doll on top of an agitating clothes washer.

Yep.

I don’t post the following lightly… I may even be out of line.

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/108254.html?imw=Y

But handling is also a big concern. Not track handling, but when you are weaving your way through mountains under full load or towing a 5,000 lbs trailer at 65mph, two land highways seem awfully narrow. The handling characteristics of the Envoy and its sister under the skin, TrailBlazer, are dangerously bad. They pitch and roll like a bobblehead doll on top of an agitating clothes washer.

Buyers, especially those that intend to handle heavy loads, should stay away from these vehicles. The existence of the Saab 9-7x proves that GM can manufacture a good handling machine off this platform.

Frankly, I didn’t see the point in even why you did a review on one of these. I would not even consider buying one of these, but I could see how useful they can be at certain times. Good article, good follow-up discussion. That what I love about TTAC.

I’m not sure why people buy these typically. I don’t tow (although mine’s rated for 6800 lbs). I rarely put the kids in it except for short trips (our RX330 is far more comfortable for 4 for any lengthy trip). My dog is my most frequent passenger.

But still – I bought mine because for $27,300, I couldn’t get a RWD V-8 this fast anywhere else new. Plus, it doesn’t hurt my back when I get in and out, unlike the Vette or GTO, the other LS2 powered vehicles I was considering (okay, the GTO).

And thanks to the substantial amount of LS2 powered performance vehicles, there’s huge aftermarket support for the motor.

It’s big, cheap, V8, RWD fun, direct competition to the Hemi powered Dodge Charger (a motor which has very little aftermarket support compared to the LS2). GM doesn’t have anything else like it – it’s the spiritual successor to my beloved 1996 Impala SS. And it puts a smile on everyone’s face (except the dog) when you mash on the go pedal. You start shopping for 20 inch replacement tires fairly quickly.

But the 4.2L 6 cylinder and 5.3L V8 versions? Nahhh…I can barely stomach mine and the crapass dealer network I have to deal with to buy and service it.

I’m not quite sure how to take that. :)

It is true that the other vehicles are not built in the same way as the Envoy. However, there is an overlap in how/why they are bought and used. Therefore, the comparison is as appropriate as comparing a FWD Acura TSX to a RWD Lexus IS 250.

It is, and it isn’t. While someone might buy a Pilot to perform the same function that a Envoy or Cherokee could do, that doesn’t make them equivelent vehicles. As I mentioned, the Pilot is a transversed engined FWD based vehicle with a unibody. The same with the rest of the vehicles you mention, minus the Cherokee. Construction wise, they are very different. Let’s stick to a Envoy vs Pilot comparison just to keep it simple. The Pilot has independant suspensions on both ends, and has the vast majority of its drivetrain sitting at the front wheels and forward. The Envoy is RWD, has a live solid rear axel an indenpendant suspension up front. Because its RWD the drivetrain sits at the front wheels and behind. Weight distribution and handling characteristics are very different between the two. Being the more technologically advanced design, I would expect the Pilot to out handle an Envoy. For a customer who can live within the the 3.5L V6 and 4500 lb towing capacity, why not give the Pilot greater consideration? For the ones who cannot, Pilots, RAV4’s, CR-V’s, etc are off the list. They’ll be shopping the Envoy/Trailblazer, Tahoe/Yukon, Explorer, Expedition, and the big Toyotas.

I think Johnster hit the nail right on the head. People were cross shopping the Envoy and Trailblazer with the Yukon and Tahoe and deciding on the latter for all the reasons he mentioned. It makes sense that GM is killing off the Envoy in favor of the Acadia and Outlook.

Since you asked, the Jeep Cherokee has a 0.77 skidpad rating and the Envoy has a rating of 0.7-0.72 depending on options and who you ask, which is comparable to the Toyota 4Runner.

So it’s a contest between sucks and sucks slightly less. I suspect that those numbers are with the stability control active as well. Even so, at those numbers, if pull a hard panic turn to avoid the deer or catch the off ramp you’re still at high risk of a rollover, stability nanny or no. You have an extra margin of error from the stability control system, but if you torque the center of gravity past the tipping point you’re still going over. The ESP can control the brakes and throttle but it has no control over the steering. In a panic turn most people overcompensate, so the risk of a roll over is still there. Again, it’s a truck so you still need to drive it like one.

The point made by ihatetrees is also dead on. The other risk of having all these nanny systems is that you can end up in serious straits when they fail. You become accustomed to ABS, and when it’s not working you’re not accustomed to stopping without it. The same can be said of ESP, even though it has the potential to be integrated into the vehicle systems in a much deeper fashion than ABS. If the ECM can control the throttle and the ABS than ESP is nothing more than programming code and a few extra sensors. However, ABS systems have a habit of blinking out and reverting you back to conventional brakes. How well could an ESP perform if it has lost brake control?

As an aside, when I viewed the first picture in this review, my eye was immediately drawn past the boring, generic gray block of the Envoy to the magnificently engineered stone wall behind. That! is a fine example of beautifully-designed, useful engineering and completely puts the Envoy to shame.

On a lighter note – if you want the ultimate channel-flipping commercial (besides “HEAD-ON”), the HORRID commercial of the flying gas pumps with the annoying remake of “I’ll Stop the World With You” would keep me from that dealer lot…and I used to like that song. Every single bleeping commercial break on FSN Ohio…every one.

The Buick Rendezvous, which also does not get a lot of love, at least looked a little better. One wonders if there might have been a market for the Aztek if it came out looking more like the ‘vous.