Like the Chevy Malibu, Saturn Aura, Buick Enclave, Cadillac CTS, Chevy Silverado, Chevy Corvette.

GM has won North American Car of the Year two years running. Truck of the Year in 2007. GM had 3 cars on the 2008 Car and Driver 10 Best list. 2 on the 2009 list. Motor Trend Car of the Year in 2008. Multiple Consumer Reports recommended buys.

Is every product in the portfolio world class? No. Neither is any other manufacturer’s. The new program launches in the last 3 years have all been world class in their segment. Period.

Happy – GM has most definitely not been losing $2 billion a month for “the last few years”. They are not asking for $16 billion by March – it’s $12B. The cash burn will slow down because the plan calls out billions of dollars in additional structural cost reductions.

The plan keeps GM operating and starting to pay back the loan in 2011 without any additional federal assistance even in the downside scenario of a 10.5 million unit market through 2009, increasing to 12.8 million in 2012. For perspective, the market was 16.5 million units in 2007. This is an extremely conservative estimate of the market rebound.

World class? WORLD CLASS???? Really?

I took a gamble on a 2006 Fusion SE. Liked the styling and the price (and I don’t want to hear the arguement that I should have lower expectations from the Ford because I paid less than I would have for a Honda…BS).

Two years later, the steering wheel is delaminating, the “chrome” trim on the door handles is bubbling up and the poorly press-fit window regulator insert is rubbing itself raw against the door panel, creating an oh-so-lovely squeek at any speed.

They don’t have the product, period. What they have, maybe, is a break in price points, but that doesn’t allow a company to prosper when you have to place thousands of dollars on the hoods of each car to beg people to buy them.

Sure, the Big 2.8 make great trucks, for the most part…but it was incredibly short-sighted of them to bank their entire profitability on them. Not everyone in America drives (or needs) a Suburban or F-150. The other end of the buying market that desired good smaller cars was almost completely ignored by GM, Ford and Chrysler (the Avenger? Really? Who decided that was a good car?).

Say what you will, but my son drives a 1997 Toyota Tercel with nearly 200k on the odometer, and the interior build quality of that econobox is still in better shape than my much newer Fusion will ever be in.

Do they deserve a bail-out? Doubt it…not with my tax money. Do they deserve to swallow the hard pill, file bankruptcy and reorganize themselves in order to come out on the other end as a viable company (or companies) that we can all be proud of? Absolutely.

GM has been losing $2B a month for the last few years and recently has seen that figure grow to $3B a month. They don’t have enough money to make it until the end of the year, that’s why they’re asking for $4B now and another $12B to get to March, but they aren’t saying how much they need after that date. What can happen on April 1, 2009 (hmm, that day is significant for some reason) that all the sudden they don’t need anymore money from the taxpayers? Is the economy all the sudden going to turn around on that day, but they’re not telling anyone else? No, the logical conclusion is they’ll ask for even more money. They’ll need another $12B a quarter through 2009, which equates to $48B total for the year. Will things magically change on January 1, 2010? They’ll get some cost savings from the UAW starting that date, but will it be around $50B per year? The economy will eventually get better and they’ll may eventually see real savings from the UAW, but that will take time. During that time, they’ll need more money. Maybe (hopefully) not $50B a year, but it will be a significant amount.

Sorry you were so rushed. I would be interested to get your take on the other points I raised. Perhaps when you have more time…

Reading your last comment, are you saying that two wrongs DO make a right? If time is of the essence, a simple yes/no will suffice.

What plan is it that they submitted? There was none. No hearings, no plans. Plus it’s a bailout, with no mention of repayment, and on the order of 20 times what the auto industry is asking for. Oh, and it also hasn’t improved anything yet.

And how can you toss around the term “mismanagement” at the auto industry, and not apply the same term to Wall Street? The whole thing came tumbling down because of an incredibly misguided endeavours into credit default swaps, largely on mortgage backed securities. We’re talking in the tens of trillions of dollars, meanwhile drawing salaries in the tens, even hundreds of millions of dollars.

I’m sorry you feel the need to post anonymously. Unlike Autoblog, we have strict anti-flaming rules here. You are free to disagree with our posts or commentators without fear of being called an asshole or similar. By the same token, unlike AutoExtremist, we have a comments section. Marty? Marty blew a gasket when I called for the carconnection to declare sponsorship of junkets and provision of press cars.

In fact, I don’t whip-out the Kool-Aid reference lightly. Your previous post echoes the automakers’ pre-prepared bailout talking points exactly. To me, that’s an indication that you’re not thinking, how do I put this, independently.

Now to the meat of the matter…

You’ve made me realize that I haven’t addressed the pro-bailout moral relativism argument sufficiently. The banking industry is more important to the American economy than three poorly-run carmakers, and two wrongs don’t make a right. Done.

As for “too big to fail,” I think it’s time we corrected that statement. At best the D2.8 are too big to be allowed to fail. Which is not true. As I and others have argued here, C11 would be better for the domestics than a bailout (I suggest you take the time to read and refute these pieces.)

Finally, it is my fervent wish that the American auto industry reinvents itself, recovers and thrives. Hate the sin, not the sinner. And in that sense, I’d be happy to share a glass of Coppola chard with you (whoever you are), Padgett, Neff, Delorenzo and anyone else who shares my love of all things automotive.

And if you wish to submit a pro-bailout editorial, please contact me at robert.farago@hotmail.com.

Also, it does include two forecasts, one based on best guesses as to the economy, and the other on “the bottom falls out.”

Certainly, the plan is GM’s argument it needs and deserves a lot of help. You may think the scenario it describes is too little, too slow. But you just may come away feeling less hostile toward a federal bailout.

The banks we bailed out have viable business plans. With capital to lend, they can make a return on that capital. While there is a risk that some (or in a very worst case all) of the capital will be lost, that is a risk that many felt we had to take.

Farago’s point is that GM’s business plan makes no sense. We learned here in Silicon Valley long ago that putting new money into bankrupt, cash-burning companies is too risky to consider. It won’t save the company. And the investor loses its shirt.

No one in Congress has the business experience to be judging the viability of a business plan. Especially people like Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Barney Frank. If it were their money they were investing, I’d not object. But it’s not. It’s my money, and yours.

Look at Warren Buffett, Carl Icahn and Mitt Romney. Do they see any viable business here? If they did, the carmakers wouldn’t be begging in Washington. You need to be able to make money to survive. Smart investors know that a company cannot use investments to fund operations for long.

GM’s revenues are over $100 billion a year. Someone can make a business out of that. Frank Stronach at Magna had his eye on Chrysler at one point. Rather than piss away $25 billion or more to fund dying companies for a few more months of life, let’s pull the plug now. If they can survive, great. If they can’t, let’s mourn them and move on.

Funny how anyone that has a dissenting opinion is a “kool-aid drinker”, “insane”, or “hates” you, or TTAC. You know, like me, Padgett, Neff, Delorenzo, etc…

The Big3 will get the money, because in the end, the companies are viable with what amounts to a minimal amount of financial assistance from the government (compared to the TRILLIONS of dollars of bailout money and guarantees being given to the financial industry, without oversight, a plan for use of the money, or any expectation of repayment) and they’re just too big a part of the mainstreet US economic landscape to allow to fail.

And you personally should be glad they will, mate. An automotive market with fewer, blander choices doesn’t leave much for an automotive website to write about, now does it….

This document is all maybes, approximations, kind ofs, deferments, and all put off until 2012. This is no plan, just a threat of bankruptcy couched in corporate BS.

I say force the bankruptcy, and have a plan to keep the suppliers from going under and killing everyone else.

What a joke.

…ok, now to read Chrysler’s plan..

Someone’s been quaffing some pre-mixed Kool-Aid…

Perhaps you’d like to peruse TTAC’s previous coverage of this slow-motion train wreck before parroting GM PR talking points.

Perhaps, indeed apparently, not.

Way overestimating.

GM needs a loan of up to $16 billion to return to profitabilty. A loan only needed because of an implosion of the worldwide automotive market, brought on through no fault of GM’s. A loan which will protect the jobs of millions of Americans, keep the economy from sliding further into disarray, prevent the loss of billions in tax revenues, protect US taxpayers from assuming billions in pension liabilities, and maintains strategically important domestic manufacturing capability. A loan which GM will start to repay by 2011.

The company is dramatically downsized and has cut structural costs by 23% since 2005. The company is producing many world class products, recognized by the press and the auto buying public, in markets all over the globe. The company sells more cars than any other on the planet, even though other governments effectively close their markets to outsiders and unfairly manipulate their currency, and our own government subsidizes the foreign competition. The company is THE leader in fuel efficient choices, including the segment leader in the heart of the US market, the Malibu, which beats the Camry. The company is innovating cutting edge technology, like the two mode hybrid transmission. The plan detailed today cuts costs further, reducing plants, brands, models, and reduces headcount another 20%+.

These are facts. Yes, GM is burdened by some remnants and bad decisions of the past – not something that should be unexpected from a 100 year old company. Those burdens are recognized, and were being dealt with. A car market worse than anything seen in the last 50 years derailed those efforts and has put an American industrial icon on the brink of extinction.

I can’t understand why anyone that calls themselves a car enthusiast would want to see the Big3 go out of business under these conditions…

If I was Congress, I’d tell Rick W. to come back once he’s got all the pieces in place, not just a document about his “plans.” Come to think of it, why didn’t he do all these things years ago??

But what these guys are asking for is spare change compared to what the financials have gotten with no end in sight and few strings attached. Where is the outrage with that? Somehow it’s more mysterious thus generates less heat is all I can figure. Google what Meredith Whitney has to say about what’s gone on and is going on and what’s coming in the financial sector. At least pissing away a few $ billion with the car companies will provide some paychecks to tens of thousands and produce something tangible. What happens to the billions and then more billions that’s disappeared down the financial rat holes?

I don’t think the vast majority of people here have any clue about what’s coming. Fascinating to watch/hear the talking heads babble about the daily moves of the stock market. After yesterday’s DISASTROUS news and market plunge, it was up this morning. Why? The ‘word’ was that it was due to speculation that the Feds would take more steps to help the economy. Like Paulson has a clue. He’s gotta have TARP then he won’t use it again then he does. And we think Wagoner is a dunce.

This dramatically shows what happens when you try to ignore economic gravity.

Wagoner and his cronies have tried to ignore gravity by not filing for Chapter 11. Now it seems that they will finally and truly avoid the Chapter 11 filing… by being forced into Chapter 7.

Until then they are only yapping, not doing.

Do extreme measures now to make a point, and be willing to live with it. Otherwise, they look wishy washy, unengaged, uncommited. They look like they are trying to run a number on the taxpayers for a maybe kind of hint hint promise. Which only underscores that they deserve nothing, having earned nothing, having shown nothing of earnestness to their own cause.

Clearly there’s oversupply. But the Big3 going under certainly isn’t going to lower prices.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=who+killed+the+electric+car&www_google_domain=www.google.com&hl=en&emb=0&aq=0&oq=who+kill#

Rick, maybe you can watch this on your jet trip to D.C….seeing as you have plenty of time to get your act together.

You’re not even worth the $1/yr you so “humbly” proffer the American public.

“So they need 12B. CBSMarketWatch says GM has 266,000 employees. So if each employee donates $45 they get 12B. If the employees believe in “the plan” why wouldnt they be willing to kick in some $$?”

GM has 96,000 employees in the US.

The clue is that the cars cost too much. Price them down down down and people will CAN buy.

All our tax money going to them is an attempt to help prop up the artificially high prices, themselves driven by the easy credit of recent years. These price points are now unsustainable.

Why does congress want to keep prices high? They are doing the same things to house lenders, trying to keep house prices high.

It’s all a futile effort. None of the trillions already squandered have done squat to make people buy. They will continue to squander trillions and nobody will buy.

The natural way of things is an oversupply should lead to slashing of prices. Car companies think they are immune to this.

Or maybe their own costs are too high? Same deal- their costs will come down when nobody buys.

For some reason their product people think their MSRPs are a ruling from high. They are ignoring the market. The market says no.

The company implodes, costs are reduced, and then MAYBE they can stay around to sell cars again.

Until then, people can hold off buying new cars a lot longer than the carmakers welfare queens can crank out cars to sit on lots.

Just THINK, a modern, ELECTRIC, vehicle designed by a hack bunch of dedicated automotive engineers, teamed up with Aircraft and Satellite engineers/designers from Hughes Aircraft. Seriously folks, you know about Lockheed-Martin’s “Skunkworks”, right?…the home of the SR-71 and other KICK-ASS vehicles? Well, we have an EQUALLY dedicated small group of WORLD-CLASS Engineers and Scientists. They ****WANT*** to SUCCEED!!!! IT’S IN THEIR BLOOD! They LOVE THIS SHIT!!

Just LOOK at the lines! Just LOOK at the *WORLD CLASS* TECHNOLOGY under the hood!! And if you don’t believe me when I say this is Hot SHIT…JUST ASK THE people who once LEASED IT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

http://www.carsareevil.com/images/gm_ev1.jpg

General Motors, you are a World-Class UTTER DISGRACE!!!

(sorry for the bold shouting, but G-D people!!!! )

No amount of MONEY is going to solve this sorry company’s problems.

NONE.

Good point. What’s worse is whomever does manage to impose austerity, force a cramdown and rationalize dealerships will be ripped mercilessly from all sides for their trouble. Doesn’t sound like something politicians would have a stomach for, any more than Buffet types.

Any bailout outside of ch11 will be propping up rather than putting the domestics on a sound footing.

What a mess. It’s like a bizarre game of chicken.