Has anyone noticed that Toyota’s new pickup truck production plant is located in the same Texas town as The Alamo? I know: metaphorically speaking, it’s not a perfect fit. The Alamo has come to symbolize the spirit of any small group of believers holding out against overwhelming odds. In that sense, it should be Texas-built domestics pickups facing Mexican-built Toyota Tundras. Only Toyota is the little guy in this battle. Well, sort of. Anyway, no matter how you look at it, this whole pickup truck thing is shaping-up to be a Texas-sized brawl, and anyone who discounts ToMoCo’s chances (so to speak) is making a big mistake.
The perceived wisdom says Toyota’s Texas Tundra faces insurmountable odds. Last year, The Big Two Point Five carved-up 90 percent of the market. We’re talking 2.25m full-size pickups split between GM (935k), Ford (901k) and Dodge (414k). Thanks to rising gas prices and a falling construction market, ’06 pickup truck sales have taken a big hit. But the segment still generates enormous, life-sustaining profits. No wonder GM CEO Rabid Rick Wagoner publicly declared that his company’s fortunes rest squarely on the broad shoulders of the new Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra. In short, there’s everything to play for.
Ho-hum. The domestics may not be smug about ToMoCo’s revised entry, but it sure sounds that way. According to an article in yesterday’s Detroit News (DTN), GM Car Czar “Maximum” Bob Lutz doesn’t think his company’s full-size pickups are anywhere near crap enough to lose out to the new Tundra. “Lutz said when Japanese automakers grabbed significant share in the U.S. car market between 1979 and 1981, Toyota and Honda Motor Co. were building better quality vehicles.” Setting aside any debate about the beginning and end points of Maximum Bob’s time line, we can extrapolate his main point: we’re ready. Bring it on.
Fair enough. GM, Ford and Dodge make some mighty fine pickups. As MB said, this is not a case where domestic abuse has thrown open the window of opportunity for higher quality competitors to defenestrate the established players. Pickup truck buyers are also notoriously brand loyal. And if you believe the media, they’re all a bunch of NASCAR-loving red staters (not to say rednecks) who’d rather trade their Budweiser beer for a charming little chardonnay than not buy a gen-u-ine ‘Merican pickup. If ever a market segment was well-defended, this is it.
Yes, well, this time out, Toyota’s not bringing a knife to a gun fight. The '07 Tundra is bigger, tougher-looking and more capable than its predecessor, from its industrial strength air conditioner to its promised "class leading" towing capacity. And Toyota’s going in with their eyes open: "We've been competing with Ford, GM and Dodge for 50 years," Toyota PR flack Denise Morrissey told the DTN. "We know the full-size market is very loyal and smart. Once they get familiar with the Tundra, get to know it, I think they will consider it. Loyalty is definitely key in this market, but it will only get you so far."
If Detroit was paying attention, that little comment would give them major cause for concern. Morrissey is saying that Motown’s pickup buyers aren’t as loyal as the domestics would have themselves believe. While Lutz and his cohorts are right to insist that their products are good enough to withstand a side-by-side comparison with the new Tundra, Toyota is smart enough to know it only has to meet– not beat– the domestic pickups’ capabilities. It can then deploy a secret weapon which will seduce great swathes of brand faithful pickup truck buyers, and carve out an enormous chunk of this vastly profitable market: price.
The GM Silverado starts at $27k. The Dodge Ram starts at $22,135. The Ford F-150 starts at $18,220. The current Toyota Tundra starts at $16,155. While we’d have to turn to Michael Karesh for a proper price comparison, the relative disparity indicated by these numbers is not misleading. Lest we forget, Toyota is a non-union manufacturer without excessive legacy costs and excess production capacity, that’s building its new pickup in a brand spanking new (i.e. extremely efficient) facility. What’s more, pickups trucks are relatively cheap to build and Toyota has plenty of money in the bank.
So, if Toyota builds a competitive product, they’re perfectly positioned to attack domestic pickups on price. Remember: the majority of pickups sold are work trucks. As such, their owners are hardly immune to economic arguments for a different brand; it’s “I’m a businessman” first, “I’m a Chevy guy” second. Toyota says it wants its sell 200k ’07 Tundras. To do that, they’ll have to compete on price– which will put irresistible pressure on The Big 2.5 to cut their margins. Even without capturing significant market share, Toyota’s overwhelming economic force could threaten GM’s survival. Think it couldn’t happen? Remember the Alamo.
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3 points
1. Toyota is likely giving these away at or below cost in an effort to buy market share. They can afford to do that.
2. TTAC criticized GM putting money into a new FST due to high gas prices a few months ago. Now you compliment Toyota for the same thing? I thought big trucks were a bad place to put development cash?
3. Don’t forget the contract workers. Toyota hires a lot of contract workers and uses them to balance work load.
Does it even matter if the 2007 Tundra meets the stated goal of 200k units in it’s launch year?
This is Toyota we’re talking about. Toyota (and Honda) built their success in the US because of a tenacious drive to own the market by building a better product. While their first attempts to woo American buyers were a failure, they re-designed, and honed, and polished their product line over a decade and a half. Not to coin a phrase, but Toyota doesn’t cut and run from markets the way Domestic automakers do. As such, can anyone reasonably disagree that the Tundra won’t be the standard in pickups in a decade’s time?
The domestics have forgotten about all the young people that own import cars and have been very happy with them. These same kids will no doubt consider a Toyota or Honda truck most favorably for their truck needs. One only has to look at the Tacoma to realize this is true..
Demographics are working against the US manufacturers.
If toyota only holds the big three pickup truck profit margin down they have done their job. From the huge cash windfall of light trucks the American companies have been able to reinvent and modernize their products. Take this away, and they are in the same boat with trucks as cars, how do you build stuff with little or no profits? And where does the money come to refresh these trucks? Toyota has the deep pockets to price the thing down and sit and wait for the Americans to fall behind in model changes as they did with their cars. They can even fail and convert the plant to other production, but don’t cound on that ;with a parent company cash rich and a culture of long term investments. Toyota is patient and they are always rewarded as Detroit thrashes around changing models and re-inventing themselves.
If the Tundra lives up to the hype, GM and Ford are in BIG trouble.
My father recently bought a 2006 Avalance, and although it is impressive, the interior fit, finish, and materials are abysmal. Lots of panel gaps and dollar store plastic.
All Toyota has to do is three things:
1. Make ‘em just slightly better for the same (or cheaper) price.
2. Allow a la’ carte options, don’t force someone to buy leather seats and a sunroof in order to get 4WD.
3. Be fleet friendly. Sell ambulance packages, heavy duty versions, and make sure a deisel is available!
The domestics have forgotten about all the young people that own import cars and have been very happy with them. These same kids will no doubt consider a Toyota or Honda truck most favorably for their truck needs. One only has to look at the Tacoma to realize this is true..
Demographics are working against the US manufacturers.
The problem with that argument is that you need to prove that future truck owners are going to be more and more likely to be moving up from import cars.
Toyota’s growth is likely to come from import-owners who needs trucks, but there are several factors yet to consider:
1. Any surge in oil prices will affect Toyota more than the Big 3, simply because more of the Tundra’s buyers appear to be “casual”–i.e. those who do not need a truck for work.
The only way to stem this flow is to increase the fuel economy of the trucks you have (to a point where they are palatable enough to keep/buy. The current Tundra is near the bottom of the pack for fuel efficiency.
That of course has no bearing on the future Tundra’s fuel efficiency, but it is something to watch.
GM already has plans in place to roll out two-mode hybrid versions of the truck lineup; something that would be critical in keeping “casual” buyers of their own, as well as luring business customers in (if the mileage is good).
2. Another consideration is dealer service and cost to own. GM has too many dealers in general, and many of these happen to be in the “right places”. Easy access to cheap parts and dealer repairs is very important to truck-buyers. Imports are not known for their cheap repair costs.
3. Ford is still around.
Toyota can well do anything it puts its mind to, but the onus is on you to explain why a “good enough” GM car will do more poorly than a “good enough” Toyota truck in markets of similar buyer prejudice. “Price” certainly doesn’t seem to work all that quickly with the domestics.
If you’re looking for people who say “Never!” this time around, you’re going to have a much harder time.
Toyota is SOURCING the PARTS for these vehicles from U.S. manufacturers.
Meanwhile, General Motors has pulled out of domestic parts sources as fast as they could replace them. General Motors knows full well that a large portion of their customer base comes from suppliers. They have walked away from their supplier base in the U.S. and they are spending every spare dollar of cash in China and elsewhere.
The only conclusion to be drawn from this is that General Motors intends to withdraw from the U.S. market, putting its assets out of the reach of the U.S. government and the UAW. When sales fall below critical levels, it can declare bankruptcy on the North American operation and walk away from the retirement obligations that were so stupidly promised.
They are “structuring” their finances for the inevitable bankruptcy.
Meanwhile, they run these idiotic patriotism advertisements to hide the fact that they are pulling out while Toyota is moving in.
The thousands upon thousands of small machine tool businesses that are left standing have a huge infrastructure of manufacturing expertise and capability already paid for. Toyota walks in and gets excellent pricing by taking advantage of the capacity left behind by domestic automakers. Whereas the domestic brands think a purchasing agent has done his job well if a supplier goes bankrupt, Toyota deals with suppliers on a rational level, and sticks to the deal after paying very close attention to every detail up front.
In other news, Democrats win big, so we can expect tax increases, environmental regulations, socialist workplace rules, protectionist legislation, and an ever more sickening economy, just like we had under the Republicans but faster. I predict General Motors will continue moving assets out of the country as rapidly as possible.
It’s called “capital flight”.
–97T–
98. Where’s the party when we hit DW 100?
I think one huge point was missed about domestic vs. Toyota trucks.
Toyota’s only large truck will only compete with only some 1/2 ton trucks. The amount of configurations on a Ford, Chevy, and Dodge are at least 5 times more diverse than any others can offer. I know most of you all have the attitude “who needs a truck anyway” so I really doubt there will be any comprehension for a 3500 series Silverado that can tow 16K lbs. But trust me, there are people that need/want it and they will never buy a Tundra because it does not achieve what they are looking for. Even if it is a better quality truck… it just will not matter.
I live in Alberta, which apparently is the second largest market for pickups after Texas. I have owned Dodge, Ford, and GMC pickups since 1978. Until now, Toyota was not a viable alternative as their trucks weren’t big enough. The big 2.5 have one foot in the grave, Toyota has just put a banana peel under their “good” foot.
97T.
Meanwhile, they run these idiotic patriotism advertisements to hide the fact that they are pulling out while Toyota is moving in.
Have you seen ANY Toyota adds lately?
1984:
Toyota recent purchase of a GM’s abandoned stake in Isuzu means that ToMoCo is buying Isuzu’s diesel engine technology.
I don’t need to tell you that GM’s Duramax diesel is an Isuzu powerplant. GM doesn’t have the engineers or expertise to support this engine; it was all done by Isuzu under contract with GM.
Anyway, expect to see a diesel engine in the new Tundra, with all the stump pulling you’d ever want.
The problem is not the “lack of engine know-how” it’s the lack of chassis “know-how” by Toyota.
Isuzu supplies the engines and GM supplies the chassis/axle/Allison transmission. Did you ever see an Isuzu cab-over truck? The frame, axles, suspension is all GMC Top Kick.
Currently there are no Tundra chassis/axles that (or heard of going to have) can hold a Duramax V8. Chevrolet trucks with the Duramax do not appear on a 1/2 ton frame. Actually I believe the frame under a Duramax are special built by Dana.
In case you haven’t noticed, real wages haven’t increased in years. This makes the average consumer even more sensitive to price points than in years past. Not to mention all those former-UAW families who took major pay cuts to change careers, and whose brand loyalty could be shaking. The broad economic indicators are not in the Big 2.5’s favor.
anyhow, good news
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/08/adjustment-to-gm-3q-losses-now-only-91m/
Toyota’s annual profits are up to $13b. GM lost less money than they thought they did. Do the math.
“1. Any surge in oil prices will affect Toyota more than the Big 3, simply because more of the Tundra’s buyers appear to be “casual”–i.e. those who do not need a truck for work.” – Somethingtosay
I don’t think so. Accord and Camry buyers overwhelmingly go for the 4-bangers and they’ll still buy it with a stick. It’s an eminently practical decision based on needs rather than wants. Fuel economy typically matters a great deal to the imports’ base and they know that fuel economy will suffer when they buy a truck. I think you’ll find that Honda and Toyota buyers who move to a truck have given the situation considerable thought and won’t do it casually.
RF,
So now it’s Toyota that will “have to compete on price”? I thought that was the domestics only hope.
And where did you come up with your price figures anyhow? According to PC Carbook, a 2006 Chevy Silverado Regular Cab starts at $16,715 with destination vs the comparable 2006 Toyota Tundra Reg cab at $16,800 with shipping.
And you know how GM offers incentives? Right now you can get a $4000 rebate, for a net list price of $12,715 on the ‘06 Chevy. Even the 2007 “classics” are not much more.
The new-style 2007 Silverado will start at $18,760 with freight, and, even with GMs new pricing strategy, there are sure to be incentives to adjust this price to current market. The new Tundra will be bigger and include more features than than the current truck, and a model year newer, so I’m sure it will significantly higher priced than the current truck.
They’ll sell them, for sure. But don’t count on the new Tundra to be the GM killer you are waiting for like the second coming.
1984:
I think the point is that Toyota doesn’t have to steal purchasers from the heavy and super duty trucks (which it can’t) to do real damage to GM and Ford. This is the first real competitor for 1/2 ton, light duty trucks that the domestics have faced (the Titan tried, but it’s lack of configurations, and partially because it was Nissan, hurt it). The Tundra will have some configurability – admittedly not as much as Ford and GM, but still enough to maybe steal away 10% or more of the market share (which would be plenty to hurt their profitability – the heart of this matter). There are plenty of people in the construction business that don’t need to tow more than 10k lbs and are more open-minded than their stereotypes would allow.
GM can’t afford to compete on price in the pickup truck market– just like they can’t afford to compete on price in the car market. But that’s what they’re doing and that’s what’s gonna happen.
The automaker isn’t making money on its NA vehicle operations. Diminishing margins in the pickup market will accelerate the trend.
GM’s Deathwatch by a thousand cuts continues. Let us recount the defenders’ whining ways:
- public perception that GM vehicles are still crap, when they’re really best-in-class
- currency fluctuations in favor of Japanese importers
- onerous UAW contracts
- legacy costs are so high, we have to build “American” vehicles in Korea, Mexico, Canada, and China
- use of nonunion labor by the transplant factories
- press bias in the auto magaziness
- press bias in the business magaziness
- press bias in the newspapers, TV, radio
- Consumer Reports
- market share doesn’t mean squat
And along comes Toyota with an entry into the 2.5’s most profitable sector yet, that won’t need $4000 on the hood like the current Tundra. Every little cut hurts, but the next Tundra will be a hundred slices, financially. Each lost sale is several thousand bucks less in the 2.5’s coffers. Keeping each sale will cost a couple of thousand dollars. It’s going to add up eventually.
The 17K Silverado comes standard with a 296 HP V8 as its base work truck.
For 17K Toyota would have to sell the “larger and nicer” 2007 V6 model for 2-3K less than the prior year to make ANY logic to buy a V6 Tundra. Remember, domestic truck reputation is equal to Toyota small car reputation and loyalty. Tundra vs. Silverado is like Impala vs. Camry.
Like you like to say oh so often about GM… “Close but no cigar”… This time it’s Toyota.
I’m no truck lover in general, but the Toyota seems to have outdone itself in ugliness with this thing.
Outside the upper Midwest, hardly any young people buy domestic cars. Seriously. So it would be quite hard for future truck owners NOT to have moved up from import cars.
This article is right on the money. Several things:
People have been burned. Take myself. I had a 2000 F150 that was a total POS. Inside 3 years and 30K loving miles: warped drums and rotors @ 12K that F refused to repair, tranny fell apart at 20K, steering fell apart at 24K, head gaskets started weeping oil at 28K and then – the thing started rusting everywhere. Inside inquiries at the point of assembly (Norfolk) indicate that the body probably missed E-coat.
So I traded a rusty F150 on a Toyota. I need a truck (or at least a large trailer) for what I do, but I am not a contactor. The Toyota will hual 14 sheets of drywall, which is enough for me. If the Toyo is extra money, some (not all) people that can afford it will pay it. When you look at total cost of ownership it’s worth it anyway. Adios domestics.
Regarding non-casual users. I think that businesses still buy domestic because that’s what’s always been available, and the aftermarket for them is huge. But if you talk to contractors, you’ll find that most have flip-flopped between F and GM over the years due to runs of poor quality. So once a higher (real or percieved) quality choice comes along they might try it and stay. Once the aftermarket comes on strong (tool boxes, racks, etc.) look out. The 3/4 and 1 Ton market is a totally different animal.
Diesel. Veru good rumor has it that Toyota will have a diesel option in the Tundra soon. Not the Isuzu V8 but a V6. Maybe beating the domestics to market.
Contrary to popular wisdom, the Big 2.5 have not sent everything to China. If I recall correctly GM North America sources only 1 or 2% of their Tier 1 parts from China. Most come from North America (including Mexico.) And the Japanese still source most parts from their traditional suppliers, even if they are manufactured in North America. They will occasionally look into the domestics traditional suppliers (because they are growing fast AND looking to avoid political backlash), but often turn around and walk out once they get 50 feet into the manufacturing facility.
Finally, what others have said. This is not a here or there argument. It’s Kaizen – constant improvement. Toyota doesn’t need to take 51% market share next year. Steady improvement is enough. And the pressure on Big 2.5 profits will kill them in the mid term. And if the Toyota is a major flop, they lay off the temps in Texas and slow the line rate. Easy.
Toyota is trying to emulate American cars and they are going down the same dead end path as American manufacturers. True their products are very reliable, I own three, but lately they are boring, boring, boring. They don’t have a decent sporty vehicle in their lineup. You can’t take a granny Camry or Corolla and slap on a “S” badge and call it sporty. Their trucks and SUVs are getting bigger and when the next gas price hike hits, and you know it is coming, the elections are over, their sales will suffer. Toyota is trying too hard to be an American company and so they are making the same mistakes as American companies. Honda is making much more innovative and fun products. You can find Civic Sis around here, Philadelphia.
Many of these guys have a Chevy or Ford P/U, ehile their wives drive a Camry or Accord. Maybe a Sienna or Odyssey.
Don’t think they haven’t noticed that the wife’s car NEVER BREAKS.
So when they have to go out and buy a work truck, they’ll look at the Tundra. At that point, all bets are off. Toyota’s legendary quality will sway lots of buyers. May not happen in 1 year. Or three. But it’ll happen, unless the domestic trucks are way ahead on perceived quality. If the new GM’s have teething problems, or major issues like Ford’s diesels, then Toyota will hammer them.
Toyota has a very simple system: Fire, observe, adjust. Fire, observe, adjust. Fire, ….
Robert:
I think that loyality is still key in the truck segment. So while I agree with pretty much everything you say, it is going to take a long time untill Toyota is really able to spoil the domestics Truck-party. Nontheless, it’s going to happen at some point and Toyota has the will, the money and the experience to go that way.
“Many of these guys have a Chevy or Ford P/U, ehile their wives drive a Camry or Accord. Maybe a Sienna or Odyssey.
Don’t think they haven’t noticed that the wife’s car NEVER BREAKS”
That’s funny, my local Toyota dealers service department seems like it’s still quite busy. And since one of the vehicles that visits it quite frequently is a 2004 Tundra belonging to my next-door neighbor, i find it hard to believe that these things never break.
Every time I see one of these articles about the Tundra being the next Great Japanese Invasion, I remember how the Nissan Titan was supposed to lead the Great Japanese Invasion a few years ago. Two questions, 1) What did the Titan do/not do that has left it completely out of the conversation over Japanese full-sized pickup trucks, and 2) how is the new Tundra meant to avoid those mistakes?
I susepct the demographic shift in truck buying is already starting to happen.
My brother is one example. My father has always owned Chevy trucks. My brother neede a truck and, like dad, bought himself a used 2000 Chevy extended cab. He hates the thing. He’s had various issues, can’t stand the rattles, and dislikes the fit and finish. Consquently, my father has had numerous issues with his 2000 Chevy he bought new, the latest being the small fortune he has paid in rear brake pads and disks because they rust out.
When my brother pays off his truck in two years, he’s going to look at a Toyota. My father won’t even consider Toyota. He’ll probably buy another Chevy.
Gosh, even on TTAC, seems like there are a lot of rabid and ignorant posters getting all riled up about the Tundra. What does this mean? That they are worried about the new Tundra. If the new tundra was really as crappy as domestic fanboys would have you believe, then it wouldn’t even be a point of discussion. I mean, almost nobody discusses Mitsubishi, because they are practically a non-player in the US market.
Now, lets point out the blatant ignorant and bring in some facts:
Joe, Toyota and GM are in *substantially* different financial positions. Yes, Robert is doing EXACTLY that. Criticizing GM, while praising Toyota, because GM CANNOT afford to be putting so much money only into trucks. Word has from a very reliable source of mine (he knows senior GM Canada officials) that GM upped the budget on their GMT-900 trucks by almost a billion dollars, after hearing some office rumours on the capabilities of the new Tundra. What about GM’s other models, like cars and crossovers? Don’t they need the R & D money just as much? Toyota has huge potential for growth in this market, and they are only flexing their financial as well as R & D muscles with the new Tundra. Toyota is always paranoid of what they do, which is partly what makes them so sharp in the marketplace. Toyota is concerned they invested too much in the new Tundra, which is almost baffling considering their juggernaut profits.. Have you heard GM say the same about their new trucks? Of course not. GM has complete confidence in their new trucks, *even though* GM is in a very shaky position financially. This is simply a difference of two (corporate) cultures. Detriot automakers almost never admit defeat, or admit to their mistakes, while Japanese automakers are eager to do this, and Toyota in particular sometimes considers even it’s sucesses as mistakes.
Robert, just to correct you, Toyota actually knows that they must *beat* the domestic trucks, at least in a few key areas, to grab the attention of die-hard truck owners. The 2007 F150 and new GM 1/2 ton trucks both have a max tow rating of 10500 lbs. Toyota has repeatedly stated in recent news that the Tundra will have a max tow rating “well over 10, 000 pounds”. It’s quite likely that the Tundra will have *class leading* towing capacity. We have yet to see the Tundra crew cab, which will be unveiled in Detriot in January, along with all official Tundra specs. Also, current rumours say the new 5.7L V8 just might be class leading in HP, torque, or both.
Somethingtosay, you are wrong. Do more research before talking about fuel economy. The Dodge Ram consistently rates at the BOTTOM of real world fuel economy, NOT the Tundra. In fact, the F150 typically rates lower in fuel economy than the Tundra. The Tundra in most real world comparisons is second behind the GM trucks in fuel economy.
1984, what you say is irrelevant. The VAST MAJORITY of the over-2-million a year in truck sales are 1/2 ton trucks, not 3/4 ton or some other niche models. Toyota is aiming at the heart of the market. Plus, the new Tundra will have 31 different configurations, which is NOT “5 times less” than what domestic makers offer. Dodge offers I believe less than 50 configurations, GM somewhere in the 50 – 60 range, and Ford the most, because the F Series is a COLLECTION of different models, ranging from the F150 to the F650, each with multiple configurations.
You are also wrong regarding “know-how”. You seem to be living under a rock, as you apparently are either ignoring or have never heard of the Land Cruiser, which is one of the toughest trucks/SUVs in the world. Outside of the US, do you think they use Tahoes, Yukons, and F150s off-road, or in tough conditions? Not even close. The vehicle of choice in most cases around the world ends up as the Land Cruiser or the Prado, a cousin of the Land Cruiser. The Land Cruiser has an extremely tough chassis. And you seem to completely have no knowledge of Hino, Toyota’s commercial truck division. They have immense experience in making a strong and tough chassis.
Regarding Isuzu, Toyota is partnering with them mainly for small, state of the art clean diesels. Toyota will combine their know-how with Isuzu to make, likely, class leading small diesels for their cars. Toyota’s trucks and other large vehicles will likely continue to use Hino sourced or developed engines. The rumoured diesel in the Tundra most likely will be a Hino-linked engine, which all it means in the end is that it’s Toyota developed.
barberoux, you sound like some spoiled whiny little child. Your points have no credibility. Toyota is making “the same mistakes as American automakers”? What are you talking about? What mistakes? How? Are you even reading what you post? I know that among rednecks, fanboys, and rabid extremists, the “popular” thing to do is hate on Toyota no matter what, simply because they are so so successful, but jumping on the bandwagon doesn’t mean any of it is true.
And some of you are thinking only in extremes. No, the new Tundra won’t make a BIG impact in domestic truck sales, but it will be big enough to hurt the domestic automakers financially, Dodge and Ford more-so than GM. It will also establish a reputation, and strong credibility among loyal domestic buyers, which is a very important point. That’s the main reason why Toyota is in the Craftsman Truck Series. That means the next-gen Tundra in a few years will have a much easier chance at taking away conquest buyers from the domestic makers.
Johnson -
Read the post fully. This was my first paragraph:
GM’s Deathwatch by a thousand cuts continues. Let us recount the defenders’ whining ways:
Then comes the list. Any clearer?
Charles T, I will address the so-called Tundra vs Titan issue.
First off, the Titan has extremely limited cab and bed configurations. Even the current, dated 2006 Tundra handily beats the Titan in terms of available configurations.
Second of all, look at sales. Since the Titan came out, it has failed to even come close to Nissan’s goal of 100,000 annual sales. The Tundra has been achieving above 100,000 annual sales every year, save one, since in was introduced in 1999. So the current dated Tundra substantially outsells the Titan. So think for a moment then, that the new Tundra, vastly improved in so many ways, can only go up in sales from here.
Also, let’s discuss price. The Titan’s base price is expensive, because it only comes with ONE available engine, again mirroring the extremely limited cab and bed options. The Titan does not have an available V6, like all domestic trucks, and the Tundra have.
Then there are the reliability problems. In particular during the first year models, the Titan had notorious reliability problems, much worse than the current Tundra’s reliability. A lot of owners got burned, and that also turned away a lot of potential buyers. Of course, there is also the very cheap interior. That didn’t help matters either.
Nissan in North America generally has a poor reputation for trucks (and SUVs). Toyota’s reputation is vastly better, and the success of the Tacoma is one example of that, seeing as the Tacoma is class leading in sales.
Lastly, there is marketing. When the Titan came out, the *only* big thing it had going for it was class-leading torque. Towing capacity was not class leading, engine power was not class leading, nothing essentially was class leading. Offering only one engine and limited cab/bed options was a step backwards compared to all the domestic trucks, and to the Tundra.
Toyota says the new Tundra is their biggest launch in history for North America, bigger than the new Camry was. Toyota dealers have spent over 1 billion dollars just preparing and upgrading their facilities to meet the new Tundra. Time and money have been spent training dealers how to specifically handle truck customers. Toyota being in the Craftsman Truck Series, and also having lots of wins is a big perception boost compared to Nissan. Toyota will have an onslaught of marketing. There are over 8 different ad and marketing agencies working with Toyota on the new Tundra. So far, the new Tundra has been shown at State Fairs, tractor-pulling events, bass fishing events, Nascar shows, and a few autoshows. And the truck is not even out yet. Closer to the truck’s launch, we will see TV ads, and print ads. Toyota will have it’s first Nextel Cup race in January, at the Daytona 500 no less. The Tundra comes out in February. You can bet that Toyota will show the new Tundra at Daytona. The Daytona race will happen just weeks after Toyota reveals the full specs for the Tundra. Toyota basically wants to build a huge buzz about the new Tundra right before it goes on sale, so that awareness for the truck is at an all-time high
Nissan did almost none of this when they released the Titan.
Thanks mica, ignore previous comments.
Toyota has missed the mark – again – with the new Tundra.
There is no doubt that driving dynamics will be first rate and reliability will be touted as best-in-class (recent Toyota quality snafus not withstanding). But the design inside and out are decidedly foreign, which is not (yet) a good thing in the full-size truck market. Some will call it just plain ugly, while the Toyota kool-aid crowd will say it looks like a closed fist, an angry Kojishi mask, or a tough bulldog (don’t tell Mack). I’m of the former opinion.
The every-man truck buyer is fiercely loyal. Large domestic trucks have been quite reliable in the last few years. You don’t hear of widespread problems like you once did. I could give you my first-hand anecdotal experiences, but I’m just one guy. GM trucks have served me very well and I would have no reliability/durability reasons to switch.
The hardware is quite close as well: there is nothing revolutionary here. Without knowing the marque, look at the specs on paper and you would have no idea who built which 1/2 ton crew cab 4×4. Toyota’s 5.7L iForce V8 should make 370hp +/- which would give them a competetive edge in power for a very short time (GM’s 403hp all-aluminum 6.2L? Dodge’s 425hp Hemi?) The six-speed automatic Toyota is using behind the 5.7L is very similar to offerings already used in Ford and GM SUVs.
GM will fight the truck war head-on as the GMT900’s are just rolling in, a couple months ahead of Toyota. Ford and Dodge make do with aging platforms, for now. I have driven the new GMT900’s and I think they are head-and-shoulders above the old trucks, and out-do the F-series in refinement. Game on.
It will take several years for Toyota to do tremendous damage to sales of the big 2.5. They can build only ~300K before they have to invest in new infrastructure. And they do not have the 3/4 and 1 ton models that have been growing in popularity. I’m not saying it won’t happen, it just won’t happen anytime too soon.
Kaisen, you’re off the mark. You’re making an elephant out of a mouse. What you speak of is not what Toyota intends for the new Tundra to accomplish, ie “tremendous change”.
You are foolishly making assumptions having driven the 900s, yet not knowing anything concrete, or having driven the new Tundra.
Gosh, even on TTAC, seems like there are a lot of rabid and ignorant posters getting all riled up about the Tundra. What does this mean? That they are worried about the new Tundra. If the new tundra was really as crappy as domestic fanboys would have you believe, then it wouldn’t even be a point of discussion. I mean, almost nobody discusses Mitsubishi, because they are practically a non-player in the US market.
Even, on TTAC?
That aside, please count the number of “rabid” posts up above.
Whatever will happen will happen. Everyone agrees that the Tundra is here to stay now.
The point of the article is that the Tundra is going to make hay in the segment sooner or later simply by erosion of GM’s profits. That is a distinct possibility but as with everything else, we will have to wait and see.
P.S. Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that the Tundra is “flawless” and will “never break”. That isn’t even true of Camrys.
There are two major things you’re missing Mr. Farago:
1. The new Silverado starts at $23K and expect the Tundra to be priced very similarly.
2. The Silverado is a darn good truck from every report out there.
KBB just ranked it the best redesigned 2007 model. Autoweek liked it.
I’ve only seen it static, but a production version and it was excellent inside. much better than the Tundra concept was.
They sold what? like 50K of the old Silverados this month. Please. When are you going to give the general credit when it deserves it? Sure rip the aveo and the Cobalt, those are horrible cars. But the new Tahoe, and the new Silverado are top notch.
Also to Blunozer: If your dad got an 07 Avalanche he’d probably be happier with its interior.
Nissan built a great truck in the Titan, guess what?No one bought it. I see the new Tundra maintaining the same market share or slightly more than the current model. if it steals from anyone else it’ll be dodge and ford. not the new Chevy and GMC.
Anyone here watch Fronline on PBS? Anyone watch it last night? Anyone notice the similarities between Untied Air and GM? Bankruptcy, she’s a comin’.
David Thomas, I’m sorry, but I would have to disagree. Nissan DID NOT build a “great truck” with the Titan. At best, it’s an average truck. The reliability problems alone are cause for this.
Somethingtosay,
Point taken. Toyota with it’s profits and persistence, eventually *will* be a big player in the truck market. The more they fail, the more they will try harder. It’s simple math that GM doesn’t have the money (right now) to compete with Toyota head-to-head. In a few years, this discrepency will be more apparent.
Who mentioned the Tundra as flawless? I sure didn’t. Yet another foolish assumption, that Toyotas are “perfect”. Even Toyota fans almost never say that. I only typically see domestic fans using this argument. No, Toyotas are not perfect, nothing is … but for the most part, they are damn good.
They sold what? like 50K of the old Silverados this month. Please. When are you going to give the general credit when it deserves it? Sure rip the aveo and the Cobalt, those are horrible cars. But the new Tahoe, and the new Silverado are top notch.
He never said that this is the model that will start and complete the fall. This is the model that will start it.
Secondly, one only has to look at how the “inferior” current Tundra beat the more capable Titan in sales.
I think some of it has to do with badge goodwill, but the new Tundra could only do better than the last one.
Mr. Farago,
I am not sure the Isuzu diesel thing is as it appears. GM isn’t “running away” from diesels:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/08/asia/AS_FIN_COM_Japan_Toyota_GM.php
Interesting point nevertheless.
Econ 101, amongst other things, teaches us the important point that what happens at the margin affects everything else. The importance of the new Tundra is not that it will quickly become the best seller in its’ class, but that it will be a serious contender. GM is totally dependent on its’ trucks to provide it with positive cash flow. Think about it in terms of a typical college whose men’s football team supports all the other intercollegiate sports teams at that university. That is why in many states the highest paid government official is the football coach at the major state institution. If the football team is not successful enough state subsidies are required to keep the sports operation going. That is just the way it is. F and GM cannot afford the Tundra competition. Literally. Are you up for a national subsidy of our (sorta) domestic auto/truck manufacturers?
Johnson-
Read my post again carefully and notice that I did not compare the GMT900’s with the Tundra, as the Tundra isn’t out yet. On paper, they are similar.
Do they need to be revolutionary? No, but Honda Ridgeline was. 2008 Toyota Tundra = 2008 GMC Sierra = 2008 Ford F150. Why switch from one to the next unless you are dissatisfied? Truck owners aren’t generally displeased.
What do you know that’s concrete that I don’t? Love to hear it.
Toyota Motor Sales COO, Jim Press, said “[The Tundra] is about keeping our small-truck buyers in the Toyota family, and keeping people from going to our rivals.” Toyota says more owners of the Toyota Tacoma small pickup traded up to the Ford F-series last year than Toyota sold Tundras.
I agree with 1984, Toyota has a serious uphill battle against the domestic trucks. The Titan was a good effort but still fell far short. The Tundra will likely be better than that but not anywhere near good enough, despite any car mag claims, to take over as the top selling truck in America. However, Big 2.5 truck profits are huge. There is alot of room for competitors to undercut them. Wether or not the Tundra makes a big cut in these profits the writing is on the wall. GM and Ford need to figure out how to drastically reduce costs, ie pension/healthcare liabilities/labor and overhead and fast.
Johnson,
I mean, almost nobody discusses Mitsubishi, because they are practically a non-player in the US market.
Now, lets point out the blatant ignorant and bring in some facts:
Which one of these sentences should come first? Everyone knows that full size Mitsus are Dodge trucks.
You seem to be living under a rock, as you apparently are either ignoring or have never heard of the Land Cruiser, which is one of the toughest trucks/SUVs in the world.
Yeah, I had one… a 67′ FJ40. There is a reason they are known as a tough truck. Check out where the drivetrain comes from and get back with me. LOL ;-)
So all domestics have more configurations. GM comes standard with a 300 HP V8. Toyota has no 3/4, 1, 1+ ton anything (Hino or not) and no diesel. Imports do not have the loyalty of domestic trucks. Did I leave anything out?
These are just facts, not sure why you sound so pissed.
BTW I never stated that the Toyota was an inferior truck… Sorry, even if it’s better it still does not stand a chance.
sorry, you’re right the Titan has the Nissan reliability issues, but the owners seem to love it and stick by it. I’ve heard many stories of people switching entire company fleets to Titans after they were big 3 owners etc. Regardless the titan isn’t the big deal here. The big deal is the new Silverado could outsell the F-150 in early 2007.
I don’t think they’re that worried about the Tundra. Plus have you seen the new Tundra?
Plus have you seen the new Tundra?
Every time I see it… I dunno… I think Battlestar Galactica robot head… Cylon I think. Perhaps it’s the grill?
http://user.dls.net/~rick/callisto/multi/cylon.gif
If you add Silverado and Sierra together, GM has been outselling the F-series for quite a while.
2005 numbers:
F-series 901,463
Silverado 705,980
Sierra 229,488
GM TOTAL 935,468
GM full-size pickup outsold Ford full-size pickup 34,005 units in 2005
BTW, Tundra 126,529 units in 2005