And the Irish and the Germans consider drinking alcoholic beverages to be manly, too. And the French love their wine.

But you don’t see the rampant alcoholism in those countries that you did in the Soviet Union. Nor is life expectancy declining in those countries.

Sorry, but that excuse won’t wash.

jurisb: And you are wrong that people didn`t have enough food to become obese. They just didn`t have so much genetically modified and synthetic food and had physically more demanding jobs. By the way people were doing much more sports because every district supported free sports clubs. Sports was in fashion, and not a way of making living.

They didn’t have much food, period, and what the masses did have they either grew themselves or spent time waiting in line to buy at a state-owned store (which usually had a lousy selection of poor-quality food).

jurisb: Of course some people using governmental ties, used to have rich mansions( which pale in luxury compared to westerners villas), and volga cars, that were kinda luxury. Yet the difference between Simple middle class Lada and elite Volga was not so big.

The ability to travel abroad, own a vacation home and a car, and shop in stores stocked with foreign goods unavailable to the masses constituted HUGE differences between the party officials (and the well-connected) and the masses.

jurisb: I think you have also noticed, that rich people are never obese in USA. Why? They have enough money to overeat tenfold. THey don`t become fat, because they eat good food( plus expensive sports clubs), while underpaid workers go for the cheapest items- modified, synthetic and low value.

While it is true that rich and some members of the middle class are thin because they work out regularly and watch what they eat, it is not true that the poor are more likely to be obese because they don’t have access to good food.

The poor are overweight because they avoid physical activity, never learned to cook and therefore spend their money on junk. This is not because they can’t afford anything better, but because they don’t want to spend time preparing more nutritious food. They are also more likely to drink high-calorie alcoholic beverages (i.e., beer).

jurisb: Socialism at least pretends to do more beyond money…..

The problem is that it only pretends…

jurisb: By the way in Soviet Union GDP was irrelevant because total size of economy was measured by manufactured units- fabrics in meters, steel in tons, timber in square meters etc. It gave real indicators.

Size is meaningless if what is produced has no value. Plus, the idea that services don’t generate wealth, and therefore don’t count when calculating GDP, has been rejected by every reputable economist.

jurisb: Geeber and it doesn`t matter if products overlap, it matters if you can sell them, so don`t worry about what companies Gm would buy or not.

A company isn’t going to gain anything from a merger if it has to spend time consolidating overlapping dealer bodies, model lines and factories. The goal of merging two companies is to build upon their complementary strengths, not worry about two lines or models that compete with each other.

This is what hindered the British Motor Corporation – it never rationalized its Austin and Morris lines, which competed in the same market segments for largely the same customers. This resulted in rampant badge engineering and corporate infighting.

jurisb: You mentioned that some Chryslers products got worse after the merger. Mention ,please those cars that were better before the merger!

Stratus/Cirrus (later renamed Sebring); the minivans; Neon versus Caliber.

jurisb: Zeta is engineered in Australia by Holden. Did Holden start if from a scratch? Nope. They took Opel Omega and derived it. By the way Gm didnt learn from Cater enough so they took exactly the same car , sent it to Australia and they made Holdem Monaro even using 94`Opel Omega exterior parts.

No. The Opel Omega was being discontinued, so Holden, with input from American and European engineers, developed the Zeta platform to replace it. The Zeta platform is all-new. Holden certainly didn’t discard everything from the Opel Omega platform, but to say that it merely updated the Omega platform to create Zeta is incorrect.

jurisb: And the only Caddy sedan running on pure GM platform is DTS. Also XLR is GM piece, and trucks that are based on GMt-900. ( yepp, even your Chevy HHR is opel platformed, opel engined, opel gearboxed)

Again, no. First, Opel and Holden are wholly-owned GM subsidiaries, so they count as part of GM.

Second, the Sigma platform that is used for the CTS, SRX and STS was developed in North America, with input from Europe. The final chassis tuning was conducted in Germany.

jurisb: ANd Geeber if Gm is switching to global platforms and it is so great, how come they bleed more than wounded aliens in sci-fi thrillers? How come Toyota doesn`t steal this idea and start buying platforms according to portfolio and market paradigms.Must be blind. Wait, they posted about15bn profits last year. Must be just a coincidence.

Toyota prefers to grow from within, unlike Daimler or GM. It doesn’t need to buy platforms – it already has them in-house. It develops them itself. It adapts platforms to different countries, which saves money by using common components where possible, but allows the distinctions demanded by various markets.

Honda does this, too. Hence, the Civics sold in Japan, Europe and North America ride on a common platform, with changes made for each market (hatchbacks for Europe, for example).

jurisb: And Duratec 3liter engine is a version of 2.5 liter engine which itself debuted in German built Mondeo 96, while was not available in US at all. And it doesn`t matter that they make it in Cleveland, Mercedes is also made in Alabama, yet I don`t call it an american car.

First, you specifically said that the Duratec used in the Mazda6 was built in Germany. This is incorrect. So, yes, it does matter.

It also matters because you claimed that the Duratec was made in Germany to prove that Americans cannot handle the manufacture of a precision-built engine used in a Mazda. This is obviously incorrect – Mazda happily uses American-built engines for several of its vehicles, and even builds the North American Mazda6 at its Flat Rock, Michigan, factory (which also builds the Mustang).

Second, Ford developed this line of engines with the goal of using them throughout the world. The Duratec has been modified for different markets (with input from local engineers) and manufactured in different markets. It is used throughout the world, which is a smart strategy for Ford.

jurisb: And if Phaeton failed in US, I am sorry for the US , not for VW.

You should save your sympathy for VW, which lost a bundle on that turkey. People with $70,000+ to spend on a new vehicle do not want to spend it on a VW. Unfortunately, management didn’t realize this.

Geeber and it doesn`t matter if products overlap, it matters if you can sell them, so don`t worry about what companies Gm would buy or not. They would never buy domestic, exactly for the same reason Soviet emmigrants run to territories, anywhere, where there arent their brothers and sisters.

You mentioned that some Chryslers products got worse after the merger. Mention ,please those cars that were better before the merger!And I agree Daimler should have never bought Chrysler. What were they thinking of?
Geeber I don`t care what japanese did to China or Korea in WW2, I know that their asset is precision manufacturing and they will do everything to preserve it, even if it takes decrease of population. When you see those smiling japanese tourists with cameras, behold , when they return home, they give a lesson to their kids, and not with smiles in their faces.
Zeta is engineered in Australia by Holden. Did Holden start if from a scratch? Nope. They took Opel Omega and derived it. By the way Gm didnt learn from Cater enough so they took exactly the same car , sent it to Australia and they made Holdem Monaro even using 94`Opel Omega exterior parts. And the only Caddy sedan running on pure GM platform is DTS. Also XLR is GM piece, and trucks that are based on GMt-900. ( yepp, even your Chevy HHR is opel platformed, opel engined, opel gearboxed)
ANd Geeber if Gm is switching to global platforms and it is so great, how come they bleed more than wounded aliens in sci-fi thrillers? How come Toyota doesn`t steal this idea and start buying platforms according to portfolio and market paradigms.Must be blind. Wait, they posted about15bn profits last year. Must be just a coincidence.
And Duratec 3liter engine is a version of 2.5 liter engine which itself debuted in German built Mondeo 96, while was not available in US at all. And it doesn`t matter that they make it in Cleveland, Mercedes is also made in Alabama, yet I don`t call it an american car. And if Phaeton failed in US, I am sorry for the US , not for VW.

YOU walked right into that trap by proclaiming that any company using borrowed platforms is second tier, and lackluster. Which would apparently include VW, as it plans to sell a rebadged Chrysler minivan. And then you attempted to extricate yourself by proclaiming that VW helped develop the current van (which it did not).

I’d suggest doing more research before making these proclamations. In the meantime, if you’re in the hole, stop digging.

jurisb: I can give you zillion examples of where Detroit borrows platforms from others, Every year, every month. Soon there will no domestic platforms left.

And, as I explained, GM and Ford are switching to GLOBAL platforms, which will require input from American and European (and, in some cases, Australian) engineers and product planners. This is a SMART strategy, and one that will help them to better compete in the marketplace.

jurisb: VW has Phaeton, by any means world class premium sedan, Touareg, new passat 4 door coupe“ etc. Give me the amount of foreign non-german parts in Phaeton!

Would that be the same Phaeton that landed with a big, fat thud in the U.S.? Yes, ALL car makers should emulate that lemon.

Given the dismal reliability (and sales) of the Touareg, I’d suggest that all of those German parts aren’t doing much good. Perhaps VW needs to learn a few lessons in reliability (not to mention production engineering and customer service) from the Japanese.

jurisb: And VW is profitable in Europe, using their own domestic engineering potential. By stamping benchmark I rather mean Audi, that is within VW, yet VW itself is a close shave.

And VW LOSES money in the U.S.

jurisb: Mazda really uses Ford engines, yet it has nothing to do with USa, They use 100% german built Duratec.

Wrong. Do you just make this stuff up? The Duratec V-6 is BUILT in Cleveland, Ohio.

Here is the entry in Wikipedia:

The 3.0 L Duratec 30 or Mazda AJ was introduced in 1996 as a replacement for the 232 in³ (3.8 L) Essex V6 in the Taurus/Sable. It has 2967 cc of displacement and produces between 200 and 240 hp (150 and 180 kW). The same basic engine is used in the Jaguar S-Type, Lincoln LS, Mazda MPV, Mazda6, Mondeo ST220 and many other Ford vehicles. It is essentially a bored-out (to 89 mm) Duratec 25 and is built in Ford Motor Company’s Cleveland, OH #2 plant. A slightly modified version for the Ford Five Hundred entered production at the Cleveland, OH #1 plant in 2004. (emphasis added)

Did Ohio secede from the United States and join Germany?

jurisb: And Ford doesn`t share anything in engineering Mazda 6 platform, it was done completely by japanese mazda. Ford has only adopted suspension pieces for US car versions. And exhaust systems due to different engines.

Again, completely wrong. Ford expanded the previous-generation Mazda6 platform to create the Fusion (it was concerned that the Mazda6, which is a sportier vehicle, would not be big enough for American buyers in the family sedan segment). This involved a considerable amount of rework and reengineering.

jurisb: Yet Gm has adopted or tuned them for usage in Cadillacs and pontiacs and Chevys, etc. By the way big deal of that tuning was done in Aussies Holden.

The only North American Cadillac that used a European platform was the ill-fated Cadillac Catera, which was basically a rebadged Opel. It was discontinued almost a decade ago.

The current CTS, SRX and STS all ride on the Sigma platform, which was engineered in the U.S., although GM took it to Nurburgring, Germany, for final development work on chassis tuning.

The DTS rides on a modified version of GM’s front-wheel-drive, full-size platform, which debuted in the mid-1990s with the Buick Riviera and Oldsmobile Aurora.

The XLR shares the Corvette platform, which was developed and engineered in the U.S.

The Escalade series rides on GM’s GMT-900 platform, which was developed and engineered in the U.S.

jurisb: For example new Chevrolet Camaro is being built on german engineered Omega platform and at assembly line they use german Leoni robots. Coincidence?

Once again…wrong. The upcoming Camaro will be built on the Zeta platform, which was engineered by Holden of Australia.

Again – are you just making this stuff up as you go along? I could make a career out of correcting your incorrect statements and postings.

jurisb: And, Geeber, japanese are not racist. They don`t hate other nations. They hate people that are lazy and don`t work hard.

Read how the Japanese treated the Chinese and Koreans during World War II. Then get back to me about how they weren’t really racist and only hated foreigners because they were supposedly “lazy.”

For years, a Japanese native who lived overseas for any length of time was looked down upon as being “tainted” by that outside influence.

Those attitudes have softened considerably in recent years, but their effects still linger, which means that Japan isn’t about to open its borders to unlimited immigration. It’s not because the Japanese are worried about the effect that immigrants will have on their industries that require precision manufacturing capabilities.

jurisb: And japanese have never ever thought of themselves as being superior! Their philosophy is being humble. Every aspect of their achievements they express by their hardware, not slogans or words!

Complete nonsense. You obviously have NO clue about Japanese history, or how they view themselves.

jurisb: I checked out the Chrysler cars and their philosophy of cheap materials, old engines, ancient gearboxes and Jurassic suspensions.I thought, jesus how is Mercedes ging to turn it around? Merc couldn`t benefit from it at all.

And yet the geniuses at Daimler, even given a decade and complete ownership of the company, only succeed in…making things worse, and ended up basically PAYING someone to take the company off their hands.

jurisb: While Chrysler was pumping out previous generation e-klass platforms it didn`t engineer a single bolt for the next gen E-klasse. Sure Chrysler had cash and dealerš net. But merceds needed top engineering to fight bimmers and Audis, which Chrysler could hardly share.

More excuses. Sorry, won’t wash. If Daimler could not spare the engineers to improve Chrysler, it should not have bought the company in the first place. And note that Chrysler’s products, with few exceptions, got WORSE after the merger, which hardly speaks well for Daimler’s managerial abilities.

You are also apparently unaware that Chrysler had a large cash reserve that Daimler promptly raided, and that Daimler further raided the company by charging obscene amounts of money for “consultation” services.

jurisb: Gm isn`t buying ford because of product overlap? don`t be ridiculous. As if Opel products don`t overlap, or Mazdas, or mercedes itself. i have a question- What does mazda need from US ford division?

Again, more nonsense. Ford and GM compete DIRECTLY with each other in virtually every segment. Why would a company buy another company that offers all of the same basic products? Why would GM need the Fusion, when it has the Malibu? Why does it need the F-150 when it has the Silverado/Sierra?

They appeal to the EXACT same market segment.

That is different from having some products overlap slightly (as occurs with all manufacturers – for example, the high-line Civics sell for as much as the lower-line Accords).

As for what Mazda needed from Ford – you are apparently unaware that, in the early 1990s, Mazda was virtually bankrupt, and would have gone out of business if not for Ford’s purchase of a controlling interest in the company. Ford provided Mazda with much-needed cash and managerial resources to turn the company around, as well as access to the Duratec engines.

And here in the U.S., Ford and Mazda appeal to different sets of customers. There is very little cross-shopping between the Ford and Mazda brands.

jurisb: You also mentioned Soviet Union. And it was only partly a failure.

Sure…and the maiden voyage of the Titanic was a success except for the iceberg.

jurisb: But have to look back at Russia, where it was before it created Soviet Union. It was poor, uneducated, with no serious industries. During soviet period it experienced the biggest industrial leap in human history. It manufactured everything.

There was manufacturing in czarist Russia.

jurisb: yet governmental claw on prices sustained middle class and reigned the greed. During Soviet union there were no people who couldn`t afford university or who would be shoved out of hospitals because they didn`t have insurance. There were also no people on streets or near dumpsters.

I see the Soviet propoganda machine is still having an effect, almost two decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

If the Soviet system “reigned in” greed, please explain why the party officials wanted those dachas, foreign travel, access to foreign goods, privileges to shop at special department and food stores and other perks that were unavailable to the masses they supposedly cared so much about.

jurisb: There was no chemical , artificial food with preservatives, emulsifiers and artificial flavouring and colouring. no obesity, and excessive balding for middle aged men.

The only reason there was no obesity was that most people couldn’t buy enough food to really overeat. Plus, after eating, they stood in line to buy more food, which certainly burned a share of calories.

And if the USSR was this bucolic Eden, I’d like to know why alcoholism was rampant, and why life expectancy for Soviet men was DROPPING in the 1980s.

You are right, and no. Mazda really uses Ford engines, yet it has nothing to do with USa, They use 100% german built Duratec. And Ford doesn`t share anything in engineering Mazda 6 platform, it was done completely by japanese mazda. Ford has only adopted suspension pieces for US car versions. And exhaust systems due to different engines.
About Gm platforms – most of them come either from daewoo or german opel. Vectra, corsa, Omega and astra platforms were 100% engineered in germany by german engineers. Yet Gm has adopted or tuned them for usage in Cadillacs and pontiacs and Chevys, etc. By the way big deal of that tuning was done in Aussies Holden. By help Gm and ford understand not rolling up sleeves and engineering metal shapes or safety structures or wiring. By sharing stake in platforms they usually understand building an assembly plant for the ready-to-stamp parts.For example new Chevrolet Camaro is being built on german engineered Omega platform and at assembly line they use german Leoni robots. Coincidence?
About Fiat, alfa. They are close to being second tier, because their product range is poor , so is the quality and their engine choices are dismal.
Peougeot, Renault , Citroen- close to being second tier. The biggest engine peugeot, citroen has is still oldtimer 3 litre. And peugeot has borrowed and rebadged Mitsus. So they are flirting with second echelon. Renault also flirts by using Nissan parts and engines, yet they have bigger product range, and a success in truck building. Yet sooner or later french will return to USA.

And, Geeber, japanese are not racist. They don`t hate other nations. They hate people that are lazy and don`t work hard. Coincidentally it happens that mostly non japanese people are more tended towards this category. Japanese are result oriented, Long term thinkers and planners. Which is opposite to US thinking. And japanese have never ever thought of themselves as being superior! Their philosophy is being humble. Every aspect of their achievements they express by their hardware, not slogans or words!
You are right about Daimler having bought Chrysler. At that time I was at my teen years, and already then smelled thar it is going to fail. I checked out the Chrysler cars and their philosophy of cheap materials, old engines, ancient gearboxes and Jurassic suspensions.I thought, jesus how is Mercedes ging to turn it around? Merc couldn`t benefit from it at all. While Chrysler was pumping out previous generation e-klass platforms it didn`t engineer a single bolt for the next gen E-klasse. Sure Chrysler had cash and dealerš net. But merceds needed top engineering to fight bimmers and Audis, which Chrysler could hardly share.
Gm isn`t buying ford because of product overlap? don`t be ridiculous. As if Opel products don`t overlap, or Mazdas, or mercedes itself. i have a question- What does mazda need from US ford division?
You also mentioned Soviet Union. And it was only partly a failure. it collapsed. But have to look back at Russia, where it was before it created Soviet Union. It was poor, uneducated, with no serious industries. During soviet period it experienced the biggest industrial leap in human history. It manufactured everything. The failure was the lack of competition, that would push those companies to spend on R&D and crank out better products. yet governmental claw on prices sustained middle class and reigned the greed. During Soviet union there were no people who couldn`t afford university or who would be shoved out of hospitals because they didn`t have insurance. There were also no people on streets or near dumpsters. There was no chemical , artificial food with preservatives, emulsifiers and artificial flavouring and colouring. no obesity, and excessive balding for middle aged men.
Geeber- US is wasting money, a trillion dollars a year on sustaining 735 bases around the world. See USA has the money, but are unwilling to invest it properly. Can you imagine this trillion being spent on new car platforms, rebirth of manufacturing, civil aircraft engineering, and improving education. See, after a soldier there is nothing of a value left behind, nothing created, not a picture, not mobile phone , tv set or happy house, screwdriver or family album. nothing that could be sold, or taxed with added value. Learn from Japan. They are not superior. They are just smarter. At least in terms of cars 100%.

It’s Geeber, not Queeber.

Your earlier post said this: “Only second tier lacklusters adopt this principle of heavy borrowing.”

Those are YOUR words, not mine. VW is doing more than heavy borrowing – it is borrowing the entire vehicle and sticking a VW badge and nameplate on it. By your standards, VW is a “second tier lackluster” company.

jurisb: By the way , VW has a real engineering share in the new Chrysler minivans.

VW is rebadging the Chrysler minivan. It has not performed any of the engineering work on the vehicle. Unless you consider suspension tuning to constitute a heavy engineering rework, which would certainly place you in the minority among those who understand vehicle engineering.

VW is borrowing a Chrysler minivan because it does not have a suitable vehicle in that segment. One bright side – this minivan will probably be more reliable than the typical VW vehicle.

jurisb: VW company today is a benchmark in stamping quality.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t translate into exceptional reliability, or a quality vehicle. GM sets the benchmark for building V-8s with exceptional reliability, mileage and performance. That is not enough to save the company, and VW’s prowess in stamping technology does not appear to be enough to ensure profits in the U.S market.

Virtually every company excels at one aspect of car making.

jurisb: US car manufacturers adopt platform borrowing as a rule. It is a pattern. By the way DEtroit 3 doesn`t borrow their own platforms, just imports. Does it give you a hint? Ok, here goes the logics. Domestics are beancounters and try to save bucks on every panel and bolt, yet they don`t beancount on platforms, they just open wallets and buy japanese and korean ones.

You appear not to understand how plaftform sharing works. Ford, for example, helped to engineer the Mazda6 platform used for the Fusion and its cousins. It didn’t simply take a Mazda6 platform and restyle the sheetmetal to create the Fusion. (For one thing, the Fusion is bigger than the previous-generation Mazda6.) You also realize that the Mazda6 uses a Ford-sourced V-6?

GM of North America worked with GM Europe on the Epsilon platform, and will work with GM Europe on the new Delta platform.

What you mistakenly regard as a sign of weakness and failure is really a strength. GM and Ford are working on a worldwide basis – as Toyota and Honda do now – to produce platforms and vehicles that can be easily adapted for use in several markets. This way they can tailor individual cars to each market, while using a common platform to save money.

Simply using one platform for all markets – as, say, VW does – will result in limited sales outside the home market. Which VW is experiencing right now.

Incidentally, if the European car makers are so great, please explain why Fiat, Alfa, Renault, Peugeot and Citroen can’t even establish a foothold in the North American market.

The simple fact is that all of those companies left the U.S. market with their tails between their legs, chased by furious customers who had been burned by awful products. And they haven’t dared come back since.

Hardly sounds as though they are examples of precision manufacturing, or makers of quality products.

jurisb: Japan population. You are right, they are aging. But I have a question why do japanese don`t open gates to immigration? Because the cornerstone of Japan is precision manufacturing.‘

Japan does not open its gates to immigration for two reasons. One, it has historically taken a very racist attitude toward other peoples and cultures, regarding them as inferior. Japan’s defeat by the U.S. in World War II has helped to change this, but even the American influence can’t overcome the second factor, which is….

That Japan is an extremely crowded country, and has no room for large amounts of immigrants.

jurisb: So while US is immigrant country, they unfortunately fail in engineering more and more, because most of the immigrants come from different cultures of precision engineering understanding.

Really? You need to tell that the manufacturers of high-tech medical equipment, or Boeing, which is shipping its latest air liner, unlike Airbus, which is still trying to make its A380 turkey profitable. They apparently haven’t gotten the memo.

jurisb: Ask yourself a question why all lexuses are shipped from Japan ? why Sony is made worldwide but luxury electronic brands like TEAC or Marantz are still made in Japan? And Sony top shelf stereos are also made only in Japan. Because only they can ensure the highest quality, if they make it domestically. US will never crack Japanese market, unless they downgrade their culture before it. By the way US can`t put or cancel any tariffs, because they borrow so much money from Japan, that they are dependant on it.

Not all Lexuses are made in Japan – since the 2004 model year, the North American-market RX 350 has been produced in the city of Cambridge, in Ontario, Canada. It is the first Lexus plant located outside of Japan.

I’d also like to know why, if Americans are so stupid and clumsy, Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans manufactured in the U.S. are better made and more reliable than VWs made in Europe.

jurisb: Why do Big 3 buy shares of foreign companies? The same why the never buy shares in their own domestic companies. Why would ford buy shares in Chrysler? to get access to an antique OHV cast iron engine?

Have you already forgotten that Daimler bought ALL of Chrysler, and promptly ran it into the ground through mismanagement? I explained this to you before about two months ago in another thread…should I search for that thread, copy my old posts, and repost them here, to once again educate you on this sorry chapter in Daimler-Benz history?

Why would Ford buy a company that Daimler ruined? Ford doesn’t need it.

jurisb: Thatš why they always buy shares in japanese, so they can get access to their engineering, their platforms, trannies, suspensions, engines. How would Gm benefit getting any ford platform? It is cheaper for Gm to buy shares in Daewoo, and pay to korean government 1250 $ for each vehicle than to find and pay real engineers in continental US.Especially the stress is on FIND. And sorry, but the more immigrants you let it the more you will wonder on lowering quality standards of any engineering.

Why would GM buy Ford, when they compete largely in the same segments, not only in the U.S., but also in Europe, South America and Australia? Why would GM buy Ford platforms, when it has platforms in each of those same segments?

GM isn’t buying Ford because to do so would be stupid, in view of the product overlap, not because Ford doesn’t have anything of value.

GM bought Daewoo because it wanted a foothold in the Asian market, and Daewoo gave this to the company for not too much money. Daewoo also gave GM access to small car platforms and a low-cost manufacturing base. Buying Daewoo was one of GM’s smartest moves.

jurisb: China lacks democracy you say, but it doesn`t lack manufacturing which accounts for 40 percent of GDp, while US share is 14 percent. China lacks freedom of speech, but it doesn`t lack trade surplus of well over 200bn a year. While US with their democracies bleed 800bn every year.

And the old Soviet Union had an even higher percentage of its economy devoted to manufacturing, and look where it is now.

As I explained to you before, the VALUE of manufactured goods in the U.S. has INCREASED over the years, and all countries grow a healthy service sector as their economies mature.

jurisb: Every American wants prosperity, but they want to have an easy job sitting at computer, singing in American idols or selling souvenirs, and they expect their neighbours to sweat out tv sets, furniture or lay asphalt.The problem is that every person should be in the right place and should love their job. But there are much more unpleasant jobs than the good ones. It is easy to find 200 singers who would love what they are doing, yet it is not so easy to find 300 ooo janitors who would be in love with their floor mop, or 2 million assembly line workers who would say that monotonous work at packaging bolts is awesome. People avoid really responsible and hard works. So do countries…….

As opposed to Europeans who want at least six weeks of vacation every year? See, anyone can make generalizations based on what we think we know.

It’s easy to make generalizations, but without actual knowledge of said countries, such generalizations tend to be not worth the time it took to type them.

To crack japanese market you need real products. Why do you americans think that you will ship japanese platforms, engines and trannies to US, then stamp on it subpar tins and then export it back to japan as pure american cars? You think japanese neede them? Sure there is market for US cars in Japan, about the size of Lamborghini or Ferrari sales. Are yoy selling them Pontiac vibe? How much would it cost to double ship the vehicle? MAybe you propose just to stamp on a Pontiac badge right at the Toyota factory doors in japan?

Japan population. You are right, they are aging. But I have a question why do japanese don`t open gates to immigration? Because the cornerstone of Japan is precision manufacturing. And they are a benchmark country in this. And there is a common denominator between 99.8 per cent of population being japanese and impeccable engineering standards. So while US is immigrant country, they unfortunately fail in engineering more and more, because most of the immigrants come from different cultures of precision engineering understanding. Ask yourself a question why all lexuses are shipped from Japan ? why Sony is made worldwide but luxury electronic brands like TEAC or Marantz are still made in Japan? And Sony top shelf stereos are also made only in Japan. Because only they can ensure the highest quality, if they make it domestically. US will never crack Japanese market, unless they downgrade their culture before it. By the way US can`t put or cancel any tariffs, because they borrow so much money from Japan, that they are dependant on it.

Why do Big 3 buy shares of foreign companies? The same why the never buy shares in their own domestic companies. Why would ford buy shares in Chrysler? to get access to an antique OHV cast iron engine? To get a discount from Chrysler plastic stampers? They don`t need it! Thatš why they always buy shares in japanese, so they can get access to their engineering, their platforms, trannies, suspensions, engines. How would Gm benefit getting any ford platform? It is cheaper for Gm to buy shares in Daewoo, and pay to korean government 1250 $ for each vehicle than to find and pay real engineers in continental US.Especially the stress is on FIND. And sorry, but the more immigrants you let it the more you will wonder on lowering quality standards of any engineering.

Sure, you mentioned that China has limited freedoms, and oppression. But there is no no long term gain, unless you have a strict rule over population. democracy is a good thing for those who have conscience, for the rest it is a gateway to their greed and sloth. Thatš why you need stadiums where you take people to and simly shoot them. China does so not because they like it, because it sets a sample for hundreds of millions of what they could get if they violate laws. One person shot by chinese governmet, stop thousands from even wanting a gun or wanting to attack others.One thief being deprived of his arm, sets a sample for million other potential thieves, who will think twice before entering your house. China lacks democracy you say, but it doesn`t lack manufacturing which accounts for 40 percent of GDp, while US share is 14 percent. China lacks freedom of speech, but it doesn`t lack trade surplus of well over 200bn a year. While US with their democracies bleed 800bn every year. Every American wants prosperity, but they want to have an easy job sitting at computer, singing in American idols or selling souvenirs, and they expect their neighbours to sweat out tv sets, furniture or lay asphalt.The problem is that every person should be in the right place and should love their job. But there are much more unpleasant jobs than the good ones. It is easy to find 200 singers who would love what they are doing, yet it is not so easy to find 300 ooo janitors who would be in love with their floor mop, or 2 million assembly line workers who would say that monotonous work at packaging bolts is awesome. People avoid really responsible and hard works. So do countries…….

There are several reasons:

1. The domestics have made no real effort to sell their products over there. For years, they couldn’t even be bothered to move the steering wheel to the other side of the car (the Japanese drive on the opposite side of the road). Hardly a sign of true commitment to cracking the market. Imagine how many cars Toyota and Datsun would have sold in America in the 1960s if the steering wheel had been placed on the “wrong” side of the car.

2. The domestic strategy, since the 1930s, has been to penetrate other markets by either buying established companies (Opel, Vauxhall and Holden, in GM’s case), or building local plants that will produce models tailored specifically for that market (hence, Ford of Europe and Ford of Australia). That is why Ford has a controlling interest in Mazda, and why GM, until recently, owned shares in Japanese auto companies (including Subaru). It’s also why GM now owns Daewoo.

Ford, GM and Chrysler have not exported North American-built vehicles in large numbers for well over 50 years.

3. The domestics make vehicles that COULD succeed in Japan because of their distinctly “American” character – the Mustang, Corvette and even the PT Cruiser – but do not bother to sell them there. The Chevy Caprice wagon and Chevy/GMC Astro van have been cult vehicles in Japan for several years. The domestics haven’t bothered building on this opening. That’s a management failure, not a trade failure.

5. If Americans aren’t exactly clamoring to buy most American vehicles, one wonders why Asians would do so. Does one really think that there are 300,000 or so Asians eagerly waiting to buy a Buick LaCrosse, especially when their homegrown models are better in almost every way?

You are aware that, in the 1990s, Toyota attempted to sell the last Chevrolet Cavalier in Japan…and couldn’t move them, because local buyers wanted no part of them? Fit-and-finish were far below Japanese standards, and most people couldn’t see why they should purchase a Cavalier instead of a Corolla or a Civic.

6. The most popular vehicle class in Japan is the microcar class. U.S manufacturers make NOTHING that would compete in that class. The Chevrolet Malibu is the best domestic mid-sized sedan, followed closely by the Ford Fusion, but both are still considered large in most Asian countries, which means most people can’t afford them. They just aren’t going to sell in large enough numbers to really make a difference.

If the Japanese market is so closed, then someone needs to explain why the Germans have been successfully selling vehicles in Japan for years…Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Porsche are quite prestigious over there, and do a pretty good business in that region.

The Cadillac CTS would have a good shot over there, as it’s distinctive, performs well, and sports a luxury nameplate, so most buyers would have the money to register it and keep it running…but GM isn’t selling it there. The Germans can do it…why not GM?

eh_political: And why not require them to purchase some American made vehicles from Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai? Say for every car sold stateside, another must be shipped back to the home market, to compensate for imbalance of trade? Just one thought.

Because it unfairly punishes Americans who want to purchase vehicles made by those companies if residents of their home countries don’t want to buy American cars.

One of my cars is a Honda Accord. Please explain why I should be faced with the possibility of paying more for another Honda just because Asian car buyers have rendered the same judgment on American cars that other Americans have?

If GM (or Ford, or Chrysler) wants my business, it can gain it the old fashioned way – by building a product that makes me (and others) pick it over the Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., competition.

eh_political: China has replaced Canada as US #1 trading partner. It is a police state. It lacks the most basic of freedoms, and dissent is met with immediate jailing and potentially execution. Hi tech US companies have assisted in the extending of monitoring capabilities over the populace, and as a result it is the most surveilled society on the planet. I would not want to be an average citizen in that country–nor would I argue the leadership is making any moves to relinquish its grasp. Again, China #1 trade partner, huge imbalance of trade, and it would be prudent for the US to address those issues, even if it were a democracy.

China does not sell cars in the U.S. Chinese cars won’t be ready for primetime for another 10 years, at the least. And there is no guarantee, that once they are here, people will automatically line up to buy them because of a low sticker price.

Hyundai initially sold well in the U.S., but once the cars started falling apart, buyers deserted the company in droves. It has taken 20 years for Hyundai to recover, and even then it still relies heavily on fleet sales to stay in business.

eh_political: Tariffs, symmetrical trade, balanced trade would all be of enormous assistance to US manufacturers, their employees, the tax base and spin off a great deal of economic activity besides. They have the potential to do short, intermediate and long term good, it’s about application and modification–because what America is doing at present is not working. China could not have an automotive industry without the political will, good policy, and a long term view. It would appear now that America won’t have an industry without all three.

Really…Toyota, Honda and Nissan building cars here don’t count? They are part of the new American automobile industry that is being born right before our eyes.

eh_political: Japanese problems are twofold, both of which America is about to experience firsthand. First is demographic, and while the US will not have the same level of aging as Japan, it will still be pronounced, and it will still “overtax” your shitty public health infrastructure.

No. Japan’s population is MUCH older than that of the United States. Japan is actually worried about a population DECLINE. The U.S. is nowhere near that point. The U.S. has one of the fastest population growth rates of any industrialized nations, and our population is also younger.

As for our “shitty” public health infrastructure – if that is it’s proper descriptive term, then the word also applies to the public health infrastructure of countries with nationalized health care. People who rely on Medicaid (the federal program for low-income people) or charity care receive the same level of care as people in other countries who depend on nationalized health care.

Meanwhile, people with private insurance, or who depend on Medicare (the federal program for the elderly) receive FAR better care than people who depend on nationalized health care in other countries. Which is why people come from all over the world for U.S. health care.

eh_political: Second is asset value collapse. Banks and Financial institutions are loaded up with staggering amounts of worthless securities. Assets are plummeting in value, the dollar is imploding, and household and government debt are insane. Very similar to Japan, but potentially more severe, according to O, say Paul Volcker.

The reason Japan’s economy has never recovered from the downturn of the early 1990s is because banks have never properly wrote off the value of bad loans and investments. A crash or downturn is a healthy sign that there is too much “garbage” in the system, and needs to be removed.

Our country (and a few others – Australia, the Netherlands, Great Britain) has been in the midst of a housing bubble, and, in the U.S., credit has also been much too lose during the same time, which helped fuel the housing bubble. Now we are in the midst of a correction, and that’s a good thing. The excess and slop need to be wrung out of the system.

eh_political: I have merely made some observations, and wondered how to prevent further decline in American industry, because it has major ramifications for my own country.

We produce as many cars in this country today as we did in 1978. So our auto industry is actually healthy. It just isn’t dominated by three major companies anymore, and labor used to build those cars isn’t 100 percent unionized.

Our industry is changing, as we are adding new players and some old nameplates will probably bite the dust (Pontiac, Mercury, maybe Dodge cars), but change is healthy.

eh_political: We may well get a chance to see how further laissez faire techniques would impact the US economy as a whole, but I seriously doubt it.

We’ve been taking a laissez-faire approach to our economy? Are you not aware of the Bush Administration’s attempt to slap tariffs on steel imports about 5-6 years ago, and how that ultimately failed (and how are allies reacted)?

What you are proposing has been tried before, and it resulted in the worst economic calamity in American history.

In the late 1920s, stocks were overvalued. When the stock market crashed in late 1929, it was actually a healthy correction. Meanwhile, the economy was slowing down at the same time, as the auto boom of the 1920s about over. But the government tried to intervene and prevent the slowdown from happening, which only prolonged the agony. Even worse, fearing inflation, the government throttled the money supply, when the problem was DEFLATION. It was as if a doctor had treated a patient for high fever after he had already frozen to death.

Then, in 1930, the U.S. government passed the Hawley-Smoot Act, a comprehensive series of tariffs designed to “protect” American industry.

In other words, it took the course of action that you are advocating that it take today.

The result was a catastrophe. Other countries retaliated by slapping tariffs on American goods, which completely decimated demand. American automobile exports, for example, fell over 90 percent, which helped drive down American car production a staggering 75 percent between 1929 and 1932.

By 1933, the American unemployment rate was an incredible 25 percent!

Today, reputable economists agree that Hawley Smoot, along with the efforts of the Hoover and the Roosevelt administrations to restrict the money supply and prop up shaky businesses, turned what should have been a short and sharp recession into an economic calamity that lasted until the eve of World War II.

eh_political: It seems quite logical to turn the tables on unfair competition, to play by similar rules. Since the loan guarantees granted Chrysler, that company has added untold billions to the American economy. Frankly, the vehicles by and large sucked, but they also permitted families to buy houses, boats, send their children to schools and countless other activities that would not be possible to the same extent if the US auto industry was exclusively foreign owned.

You are advocating something entirely different now – government aid to a faltering company, which is different from tariffs.

Second, there is no proof whatsoever that foreign automobile companies pay poverty-level wages to their workers. If anything, experience has shown that the transplants pay their workers competitive wages, because they don’t want workers from the bottom of the barrel. Workers are expected to take responsbility for quality, and show initiative. Such people will quickly leave if they are not sufficiently paid.

The difference is that the transplants aren’t as generous with health care benefits.

Given that the domestics are staggering under that obligation, and that even governments are waking up to the fact that they cannot afford to provide lavish health care benefits on a universal basis, this is a wise move on their part.

jurisb: I can`t think of any single manufacturing branch within USA, that deals with precision complex engineering and stamping and that would excel.

Here are a few: high-tech computers, aircraft, defense equipment, medical equipment, pharmaceuticals – those are just for starters.

jurisb: Seems only second tier lacklusters adopt this principle of heavy borrowing.

Given that VW is selling a rebadged Chrysler minivan, I guess this now means that VW is a second-tier, lackluster make. Which is accurate, considering that it loses money in the U.S., and scrapes the bottom of the quality barrel.

Warren Buffett advocates a similar program to restore America’s balance of trade.

eh_political , I’m giving you about a hundred arms length claps at the moment. You are the official winner of TTAC’s unofficial and completely unsanctioned ‘Post of the Week’.

I did just that. A 1974 Time article on Canadian nationalism mentions the book and “its stridently nationalistic author, Toronto Lawyer Richard Rohmer.” In it, “the U.S. invades Canada [to grab oil and gas, of course) but is beaten back by Canadian forces with some help from the Soviet Union." [Remember them?] One has to wonder, however, why the US would go to the bother. As Time revealed in that article, “Canada’s present oil reserves will run out in about eight years [i.e., 1982], and there is no adequate technology to exploit the deeply buried oil deposits in the Athabasca tar sands.” So what IS all that black liquid Canada keeps selling to us? Tim Horton coffee?

Economic desperation plus misidentified solidarity, I think.

My 73 year old, still very alert and active brother recently bought a Buick. He ignored my negative predictions.

The headliner fell down on his head as he drove the new Buick home, a distance of about 4 miles. The front part started down before he got across I-285 and it was holding on in the back when he returned to the dealership. He did not make it home in that car for 2 days. Soon the On Star system or some other Gremlin was announcing loudly that the car was soon to be out of gas and an emergency fill up was needed. Of course, this loud announcement had nothing to do with actual gas in the tank. It took the dealer’s ace service department 3 days to fix that annoying problem.

The built in GPS system, again against his little brother’s buying advice, never worked. Neither did the replacement unit. Now there is a vacant space there.

I am not making this up.

The passenger front door leaks when it rains too, but we are in a drought of sorts around here so he is ignoring that.

Survey him and he will probably say it is a great car.

just sayin

Your post reminded me of a book I read many years ago. Do a search on “Exxoneration”. It was a fictional account about the US attacking Canada for oil. I won’t tell you the outcome.

It doesn’t seem nearly as implausible now as it did then.

As for the doom and gloom on this thread, I discount it because the media is always excitedly predicting the apocalypse. But I think eh-political is right that political conditions will lead to more protectionism. Still, it’s good to remember that such tactics can backfire. On August 15, 1971 President Nixon announced a 10% tariff on Japanese goods. (Our economic relationship with Japan then was much like the current situation with China.) The next day, figuring the price could only go up, I bought a Japanese car.

No kidding! In 1981, during a previous energy crisis, U.S. President Reagan declared Canada’s oil, gas and water continental resources.

We don’t have any weapons of mass destruction, but that little technicality didn’t help Saddam Hussein.

No matter who gets the Whitehouse and Congress, this is going to be a hell of a mess to wade through, and even with wise decisions, it’ll take years and lots of luck to fix. Add in the fact that the opposition, especially the Republicans if the Democrats get power, will sabotage as much as they can. I think the country might be ungovernable or nearly so by the Democrats just because there’s so much animosity on the right.

Then there’s climate change which we haven’t even begun to address, unless you count ethanol and carbon dioxide coming out of politicians mouths.

China has replaced Canada as US #1 trading partner. It is a police state. It lacks the most basic of freedoms, and dissent is met with immediate jailing and potentially execution. Hi tech US companies have assisted in the extending of monitoring capabilities over the populace, and as a result it is the most surveilled society on the planet. I would not want to be an average citizen in that country–nor would I argue the leadership is making any moves to relinquish its grasp. Again, China #1 trade partner, huge imbalance of trade, and it would be prudent for the US to address those issues, even if it were a democracy.

Tariffs, symmetrical trade, balanced trade would all be of enormous assistance to US manufacturers, their employees, the tax base and spin off a great deal of economic activity besides. They have the potential to do short, intermediate and long term good, it’s about application and modification–because what America is doing at present is not working. China could not have an automotive industry without the political will, good policy, and a long term view. It would appear now that America won’t have an industry without all three.

Japanese problems are twofold, both of which America is about to experience firsthand. First is demographic, and while the US will not have the same level of aging as Japan, it will still be pronounced, and it will still “overtax” your shitty public health infrastructure.

Second is asset value collapse. Banks and Financial institutions are loaded up with staggering amounts of worthless securities. Assets are plummeting in value, the dollar is imploding, and household and government debt are insane. Very similar to Japan, but potentially more severe, according to O, say Paul Volcker.

Please don’t lump me in with Lou Dobbs. I have merely made some observations, and wondered how to prevent further decline in American industry, because it has major ramifications for my own country. We may well get a chance to see how further laissez faire techniques would impact the US economy as a whole, but I seriously doubt it. It seems quite logical to turn the tables on unfair competition, to play by similar rules. Since the loan guarantees granted Chrysler, that company has added untold billions to the American economy. Frankly, the vehicles by and large sucked, but they also permitted families to buy houses, boats, send their children to schools and countless other activities that would not be possible to the same extent if the US auto industry was exclusively foreign owned.

US trade policy will change, both with regard to cars, and in general. How much and to what effect is anyones guess at this point. The only questions are how soon, and how much. We are living in interesting times.

I still think we are in for a rough ride on trade with the US, just look at how softwood was resolved. Do bear in mind the latitude the US has to cut fat in energy consumption, and how dire the effects of trying to play hardball with the Americans would be to Canada. Inconvenience for them, catastrophe for us. Plus, they could walk in and take the oil if things ever became desperate. Unlikely at the moment, but temptingly easy.

just sayin

Over the next few years nearly 3-million barrels of oil per day will flow south into the U.S. from Canada, making it America’s No. 1 petroleum supplier by a considerable margin.

Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama recently speechified for the rubes they will reduce trade with the Great White North. The Canadian government gave notice it will alter oil export terms. Hilly and Bama don’t talk about it any more.

They still became democracies…and are not despotic by any means. And given that Japan and South Korea are the home of the companies that are beating the American auto makers, it makes little sense to complain about despotic countries unfairly shielding their pet companies to take on America.

eh_political: My point, fairly obviously, was that US corporations do huge business with many despotic Asian regimes, while pretending trade will somehow magically transform these nation states into freedom loving democracies. Not likely. But the US military and taxpayer once assumed the role.

And China is hardly the same nation it was even 20 years ago. Is it a democracy today? No. But is it as closed and repressive as it was even 20 years ago? No. The transformation of China’s economy is slowly driving the change of China’s social structure, and thus, its government.

Plus, we import exactly zero vehicles from China right now, so, as far as the automotive industry goes, China is a red herring.

eh_political: Tariffs are likely, a near certainty, in fact and transplants should ramp up North American production. The Japanese in particular have proven adept at turning all the barriers the US have imposed into positives, so where is the problem?

The problem is that you are selling tariffs as a cure for what ails the domestics. The catch is that their toughest competitors all have an established production base here in the U.S., so any tariff will quickly be overcome, and the domestics will be right back where they started (i.e., in deep financial trouble).

Tariffs aren’t going to solve a darn thing, in the long run. They aren’t going to eliminate brand overlap, decision making that favors delaying tough choices, or product planning that has favored Escalades over a true Civic competitor.

From a political standpoint, the Democrats are unlikely to slap tariffs on motor vehicles for several reasons.

One, they would alienate the more moderate voters who have been crucial to their electoral gains since 2006. Do you really think that the Democrats want alienate those young suburbanites in Kentucky, the Carolinas or California by driving up the cost of that Hyundai Accent or Honda Fit with tariffs? That sounds like a good way to reverse the political gains they’ve made since 2006.

Perhaps Karl Rove is secretly advising them to push for tariffs?

Second, any imposition of tariffs would risk retaliatory measures by other countries on U.S. exports (there are more of those than you think).

Third, one of the biggest criticisms of the Bush Administration by Democrats has been that it has been heedless of world opinion and has alienated allies with its bull-in-the-China-shop actions.

I seriously doubt that an Obama or Clinton administration would be dumb enough to further alienate our allies (the great majority of imported vehicles come from Mexico, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Great Britain, Sweden and Germany – last time I checked, they were still our allies) by slapping tariffs on their automotive exports.

eh_political: South Korea is not an open market. Japan, Taiwan, are too sneaky by half, call the shots and manipulate everything from currencies to AMERICAN politicians. By contrast US economic policy looks piecemeal and downright incoherent. It should. It is.

There is no proof that South Korea or Japan, as a whole, have benefited from their protectionist policies. The Japanese economy has been in the dumps since the early 1990s, and has underperformed the U.S. economy in virtually every important measure.

The currency manipulation strawman has been shot down numerous times on this site. ALL countries manipulate their currency – including the U.S. No matter what the level of the yen is as compared to the level of the dollar, the Japanese have still stolen market share from GM, Ford and Chrysler. Must be some other factors at work…

eh_political: China runs a huge trade surplus with the US. Are you seriously going to suggest that they will refrain from adding autos, and whatever else to that surplus?

They can send us whatever autos that they want to, as long as said vehicles meet American safety and emissions standards. There is no guarantee that anyone will buy them. Most reputable analysts agree that the Chinese are 10-15 years away from making vehicles suitable for export.

GM, Ford and Chrysler are getting beaten TODAY by Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai because said companies make more attractive vehicles, not because they are necessarily cheaper.

Bringing up the China bogeyman only distracts from this uncomfortable truth.

eh_political: Finally, if you don’t do something to stabilize and enhance your middle class, it will take America many generations, if ever, to recover a standard of living comparable to the one you currently enjoy–and cannot sustain.

With tariffs on imported automobiles, you’re not stabilizing the middle class. You’re robbing Peter, who has to pay more for either his Hyundai, or his Chevy (as the domestics have demonstrated repeatedly that they will raise prices at the first opportunity, and raising prices is what they will do when import prices increase), to pay more to UAW member or white-collar GM worker, Paul.

That’s not stabilizing or enhancing anything. It’s taking money away from one group to pay off another, more politically favored, group.

That type of economics may appeal to Lou Dobbs listeners or UAW members, but most Americans can see right through it.

There is also the possibility that someone would buy Delphi’s pieces if they go chapter 7. They could buy the divisions for the ECMs and the audio systems, for example, and want to retain the engineers so that they can qualify the product as soon as possible. That way, they are a proven source and can resume product to their customers, with GM being the largest and the one who has the most to lose if Delphi pulls the chapter 7 pin.

Why would anyone TODAY buy ANY GM product?

What’s the difference from buying a car from a company in bankruptcy from buying a car from a company that inevitably will go bankrupt?