By Robert Farago
March 16, 2008 - 58,962 views
Media-wise, the new Pontiac G8 is a hit. Obviously. The Aussie four door conforms to the pistonhead paradigm: a powerful, rear-wheel-drive sports sedan. According to the jobbing journos flown to a first-class California hotel to test the new machine on local roads, the G8 GT isn't aesthetically offensive, goes like stink and handles well. While hooning hacks are celebrating the return of the [imported] American muscle car, they seem to have forgotten the fact that the muscle car is dead. As is Pontiac. And, by extension, GM.
The Dodge Charger is the obvious, indeed inescapable, template for the Pontiac G8's prospects. While enthusiasts may balk at the comparison– citing important [to them] differences in power, handling, interior fitment, etc.– the G8 and the Charger live in the exact same niche. They sell at the same price, offer the same driven wheels configuration and boast the same aggressive style. Last year, the Charger sold a not-inconsiderable 119,289 units.
The billion dollar question: can the G8 make those numbers, or better? Although the initial plan is to import limited numbers (20kish) of G8s, given the cost of production, there's only one way this car will ever make money for GM: if it sells in sufficient volumes to justify larger, and more local, production. At least that WAS the plan…
The Pontiac G8 may find some measure of sales success simply by stealing buyers from the Charger and its other logical competitor, the Chrysler 300. But even if the G8 scams 20 percent of these two ‘merican-style machines' customers, the Pontiac can't thrive on defectors alone. To make its nut, G8 buyers have to come from… somewhere else.
The chances that loyal/satisfied owners of transplant sedans will opt for the new Pontiac are small. While the new G8 may embody the erstwhile carmaker's old "excitement division" selling point, Pontiac destroyed that brand equity decades ago in a torrent of poorly-built, badge-engineered cars and minivans. In spite of (because?) the flame-out success of the Solstice roadster, Pontiac has no cachet upon which the G8 can draw. The company itself has moved on to a new motto: "Pontiac is car." How great is that?
So what about SUV escapees? Perhaps the G8 will tempt mainstream truck buyers to return to the large American-style cars of their youth. For years, pundits have predicted that SUV refugees will eventually opt for comfy sedans (remember Ford's Year of the Car?). Unfortunately, lackluster large sedan sales lead us to conclude that most SUV escapees are "trading down" to slightly more fuel-efficient CUVs or "all the way" to four-cylinder sedans.
Truth be told, the most likely customers for the new Pontiac G8 are consumers considering another GM sedan. What's the bet people looking at the Chevrolet Impala and/or Buick Lucerne/Lacrosse and/or a lower-spec Cadillac CTS will opt for a G8? In other words, once again, cannibals loom large in GM's sales schemes.
Alternatively– and this is the best case scenario– the overall market for the G8-type of vehicle will expand. In a shrinking new car market beset by rising fuel prices, any hope that the audience for a relatively thirsty rear-wheel-drive sedan will suddenly enlarge is destined to remain unfulfilled. The fact that sales of the Dodge Charger and the fleet-bolstered Chrysler 300 are flat does not bode well for the Pontiac.
While the G8 may get off to an auspicious start (the thrill of the new), it's highly unlikely G8 sales will have "legs." The Pontiac G8's "killer app" is American muscle. But it should be remembered that the V8 variant accounts for just 24 percent of the Charger's total sales (24,630 vs. 90,659). So, while the G8 GT offers remarkable bang-for-the-buck, the "normal" V6 version will make or, more likely, break this car.
Yes, the G8 V6 is rear wheel-drive and significantly faster than the Charger V6. But the bread-and-butter model G8 is slower than both the V6 Accord and V6 Toyota Camry. The base Pontiac's sloth leaves the Australian-built sedan with no appreciable advantage for the average American sedan buyer.
In fact, when it comes to evaluating the "average" G8, the average U.S. car buyer couldn't care less about horsepower, driven wheels, handling or speed. They want brand rep, reliability, comfort, a competitive sticker price and maximum fuel efficiency– and not necessarily in that order.
Speaking to that point, The base Pontiac G8 gets 17/25mpg. The Honda Accord V6 gets 19/29; the six-pot Camry clocks-in at 19/28. And anyway, six-cylinder Accords and Camrys do NOT account for the majority of the models' sales. They are easily and completely outsold by variants with more fuel efficient four-cylinder engines; which the G8 doesn't offer.
Not to put too fine a point on it, the Pontiac G8 is the wrong car at the wrong time for GM. Whether or not there's any profit in importing a $30k car from halfway around the world, what GM really needs to survive is a single, highly competitive four-cylinder sedan. Instead of adding the G8 to their line-up, GM should have improved what they had.
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March 16th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Great post Robert - you sum up my thoughts on the G8 perfectly. The GT may be great, but its going to be a pretty small niche the way gas prices are going. I fit the G8 market perfectly, but there is no way I can justify that gas mileage in an era with $3 dollar plus gas no matter how fast it may be. And, the V6 isn’t all that attractive (and not on my list) when compared to other sedans from Honda, Nissan, Toyota et al because of interior and feature shortcomings regardless of the wheels being driven. GM would have been better off trying to make the Aura into a legitimate competitor for the high end Accord, Camry and Altimas of the world than appealing to a bygone era with the G8. That and its been over a year since the car “debuted” at the 2007 Chicago Auto Show and still none to be found on the dealer lots. Once again, too many models/too many brands. A BMW 5-Series on the cheap the G8 may be, but most buy the 5-Series because of the propeller - something the arrowhead division has no chance in matching.
March 16th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
That big yank tank is just more of the same. Nothing special. High price, poor mileage, average performance. We’ve seen it all before and already have plenty of them.
How about a two door Ford Fusion with a 400 mile lithium pack that would blow the doors off this G8 and have it for around $14k?
There will soon be a range war(and price war, and performance war) with electric vehicles. Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Nissan all have vehicles in the works. Fleets of 30 in testing now. For sale in 2010. GM and Ford will be left behind.
Why can’t GM take the Aveo and make 3 models of it? A hybrid model that gets better city and highway mileage then the Prius, and potentially even beats it on price. A high performance turbo four that beats most cars in the 1/4 mile. A four cylinder diesel model that gets 1998 like VW Beetle fuel mileage(50mpg). What about even a gas model that beats all imports fuel mileage? Is it that hard? Why sell cars that do nothing and win at nothing? Who wants that? All Ford and GM need to do is revamp their entire line up. It’s not too late. The goal and the key is to beat the competition at something. Price, performance, fuel mileage. If they can’t; might as well just go out of business then. Frustrating as all get. A bunch of know nothing lackers. Too scared to act or move. That’s not the world leading Ford and GM that I remember.
March 16th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
A new V-8 powered full sized high performance sedan seems like a stupid idea in the era of $3-4/gallon gas, but I think that given the circumstances, GM went about this the right way. This car was already developed for the Australian market, so it could be produced at existing facilities and with little extra development costs involving Americanization. I also don’t think GM has any illusions regarding the sales numbers of this car. I seem to remember predictions in the 30-40K/year range. I think they will meet that with no problem. The big issue here is that this car has the opportunity to provide a badly needed image boost for GM among enthusiasts.
March 16th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
They need their top people to actually like small cars. How can BMW can sell an upscale premium small car (mini) but not GM with all their divisions?
GM’s aversion to small cars is truly amazing. The Aveo is another Chevette. A car engineered from a subsidiary for another market shipped to America and sorely lacking in competitiveness compared to the class leading Fit or even the Yaris.
GM needs an upscale premium (profitable) small car. Yet how can GM make money making an upscale small car when they have refused to even make small cars for so long.
March 16th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
GM is having a “Name the vehicle contest” for the G8 sport-truck?
Might as well call it the “Lead Balloon”, because that is how it will go over in the market in the era of $4 per gallon gas….
Dumb. Dumber. Dumbest….
March 16th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Of all the car guys that I know, only one would even consider buying this car.
He’s a car guy that grew up on american V8’s - specifically Chevys. He’s owned camaros, impalas, and malibu wagons.
This very same guy has also owned Jags with transplanted chevy 383 stroker motors, and Ferraris.
I think he would consider a G8, but his attention (read: wallet) is focused on a BMW 550i - which he loves.
Here is GMs problem with this car. GM can’t seem to make V8 muscle affordable. The guys that can afford this type of vehicle, can usually afford something more refined, with a better brand reputation.
The “kids” can’t afford this car. That’s why you see an entire generation of kids modifying hondas and subarus. They can afford them, and they can afford to modify them. How is GM going to win their hearts and minds?
Answer: They aren’t going to.
March 16th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Gas was practically free from 1986 until 2000, so naturally GM comes out with the Z06 and G8 in 2008. Brilliant.
March 16th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
This shouldn’t be a deathwatch post. The G8 is not part of the problem. There is a market for it, the Charger proves that, but it is smaller than it was. There is little competition in this niche. Camry and Accord aren’t direct competitors. This is a bona fide performance sedan at sub-entry-luxury prices.
The 4-cylinder sedan they desperately need is a more competitive G6. The G6 is the deathwatch article you’re looking for. Remember when Dan Neil of the LA Times wrote a scathing review of the “My other car is an Enterprise Rent-a-car” and GM pulled all its ads from the LA Times for a short time? You don’t get that upset if you don’t know that he’s right.
The G8 is the flagship. It might not sell in the volumes that it would have ten years ago but there are plenty of people who can’t afford a 5-series who will get one.
Also, why does Detroit keep changing their taglines? What was wrong with “We build excitement”? That’s a great tag. Pick it, stick with it for 20 years, and spend the time saved working on product.
March 16th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Isn’t it ironic that the new ‘09 Subaru Forester XT manages nearly the same 0-60 time as the G8? It does so for one simple reason - AWD, which gets all the power to the ground rather than just smoking the rear tires.
Then again, one can’t do high power drifting in a Forester like they could in the G8.
March 16th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
“V6-engined Pontiac G8 gets 17/25mpg. The Honda Accord V6 gets 19/29; the Camry clocks-in at 19/28.”
Sure you got the 2007/2008 EPA standards ironed out? I ask becaue the 2007 and 2008 V6 Accord automatics are 20/29 and 19/29 but the manual drops from 21/30 for 2007 down to 17/25 for 2008 according to autos.yahoo.com. I suspect the 2008 automatics haven’t been re-tested but the 2008 manual transmissions have. Or, the 2008 Honda automatics have been re-optimized for the 2008 tests, which would probably make them less exciting to drive. Anyway, why would anyone want an automatic? Just considering the manual transmission cars, the fuel efficiency of the Accord and G8 bench the same.
March 16th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I disagree with the comparisons being made to the Accord and Camry, in that the G8 is intended to be a low-volume niche vehicle. If the goal was to sell 100,000 G8’s per year, that benchmark would be valid, but the factory can’t build more than 30,000 per year and the goal is to import fewer than that.
That being said, the G8 will still miss the mark. As is the Solstice, this car is meant to serve as a gateway/halo car for the Pontiac brand, using excitement generated by the G8 to pull in traffic that will purchase a G6, G5, Torrent or Vibe.
I don’t see this happening. The other less-than-mundane G-cars share no obvious kinship or connection to the G8, so the spillover benefit will be minimal. The diehard GM fans who are drawn to the idea of a hot Pontiac will be gained from the cannibal pool, so the conquest buyers will be few and far between, and are unlikely to be drawn to the rest of the lineup.
And of course, it’s the wrong car at the wrong time, given fuel prices and the recession. I can see them selling 20,000 units, within projections, but that is not going to make this a profitable venture.
Plus, the exchange rate is only going to hurt. Two years ago, one US dollar was equal to about AU$1.35-1.40; as of Friday, that rate was just under $1.07. I’d be curious to know whether this car even achieve breakeven with the US dollar at that level.
March 16th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
The G8 appears to be a really good sports sedan except for one HUGE flaw….It’s badge. Unless GM gets serious about brand management, they will have little success in selling premium products. How many people are willing to drop 30-35K on a car that the general public will just assume is another shit box rental queen Pontiac. This car would make a great Acura or Mazda.
March 16th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
The comparison is valid because the average consumer is going to look at the two products and decide they get a lot more car for the money with the Accord/Camry vs. a V6 G8. Look at it this way - the V6 versions of the Accord and Camry are probably niches within the overall sales of each model - but profitable because of the overall economy of scale provided by the range. Likewise, Nissan is getting 60K to 70K “bonus” sales out of the Maxima sharing a platform with the Altima, Murano and Quest. A similar comparison can be made with the Accord/TSX/TL. Its this factor that will relegate the entire G8 to niche status.
How many of those 120K Charger sales are to fleets anyway?
March 16th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
The comparison is valid because the average consumer is going to look at the two products and decide they get a lot more car for the money with the Accord/Camry vs. a V6 G8.
The target market isn’t the Accord/ Camry/ Altima midsize sedan segment, but the 3-series/G35/TL/ C-class/A4/Lexus IS near-luxury sedan class. The price point and projected sales volumes are in line with this group, and it needs to attract this crowd if the car is to succeed.
Not that this is going to happen. The rest of the lineup provides negative cachet value to ensure that this doesn’t happen. If they want to sell the G8, they need to start by building a better G6.
March 16th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Sunnyvale -
The author has the 08 EPA figures for the Accord dead-on.
The manual Accord, available only in the coupe, gets an EPA rating of 17/25.
The automatic Accord gets an EPA rating of 19/29.
The reason for this is that the automatic version gets Honda’s variable cylinder management technology, while the manual version does not. The trade-off is that the manual version has a much more robust mid-range, while the automatic loses alot of mid-range to incorporate the cylinder de-activation technology.
Hope that answers your question.
Joe
March 16th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Or maybe it’s because the Forester weighs about 700 pounds less than the G8.
March 16th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Pch101, your earlier post got me to thinking. The move here is going to be for Aussies to start importing G8’s back to the homeland. The base price for the G8 GT (V8, 6-speed auto) is $29,995, the comparable Holden (Commodore SS with 6-speed auto option) is $47,290 (!). I bet a lot of guys would learn to drive on the left side of the car for $17,000….
March 16th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
The demand may not be here now, but if Pontiac can keep this car relevant until the recession ends, this could be a valuable product for them in the future. I think what kills this car more than anything else is the exchange rate. I still don’t understand why they don’t build them where they build the Camaro, which they’ve already said is going to be more expensive than they intended because it’s the only Zeta model built in North America.
March 16th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
“GM should have improved what they had.”
…the Grand Prix?
In terms of replacing their large car in the lineup, this was a way better choice. ABC News in Australia is talking about how great this is because it’s not only saving Australian jobs in a time when a Mitsu plant is closing down here and Ford’s factory is supposedly on the ropes, but it’s actually going to create a few new jobs at the plant to handle the extra volume.
GM saves a factory, saves R&D money, and all in the process offers a vastly superior successor to the previous model. Its fuel economy isn’t quite in the same territory as the Accord and the Camry, but it’s not too far off and they’re in different segments anyways (yes, technically the Accord is a large car but it’s traditionally in the midsize segment).
With all this in mind, will it sell well? Probably not in droves, but enough to keep the “product-led turnaround” hype machine rolling, which is probably more important to GM anyways. They can’t be losing too much money by doing this. Besides, this car doesn’t have much of a future anyways; CAFE will soon take out some (possibly all) of the V8 trims.
Props for the “Down Under” lyrics too…that’s pretty much been my theme song since I started this study abroad thing :P
March 16th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Nice write up, Robert.
The Solstace got people into the showroom, and hell, they even bought the things for awhile. At its hottest, and I’ll never understand this, every other time it rained, on the on-ramps/offramps, I’d see one of these or the Sky spun off on the shoulder… and apparently, 1 inch of mud causes it to get instantly stuck. I wish I was exaggerating. It was the most peculiar thing.
I’m just wondering how many Solstace customers, who in all likelihood should have stayed true to Pontiac or GM, will totally ignore this thing, even if they like it? Right formula, wrong execution.
March 16th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
With logic and vehicles like this G8 it’s NO wonder the 2.8 are in the MESS of trouble they’re in. With gas the price it is and likey to stay high (and most likely go up more) the 2.8 need to be concentrating on small fuel efficent 4 and 6 cylinder vehicles (and hybrids) that people can ACTUALLY afford to fill with gas and drive daily and not have to take out a second mortage on the house just to keep it full of gas. The G8 is a bad idea and a bad decision on GM’s part. GM may have the non-Chevy Chevy Aveo as a high milage sub-compact to compete with the Fit, Versa and Yaris but FoMoCo and Chrysler each are SOL (shit outta luck) in the segment here. And these are the kind and type of vehicles they need to help save gas and money and they can’t offer anything to the customer in that segment. As i said at the start of this post, It’s no wonder the 2.8 are in the mess they are in.
March 16th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Hey Robert, there is a flaw in your premise for this article.
Holden cannot build 119,289 G8s per year for the US. This is not a car that’s about sales numbers.
Holden is a tiny operation with one plant. Last I heard the most they can produce is somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 units per year split between whatever body styles GM decides they want to sell in the US. The total production of 2008 G8s was 18,000 cars. Production of the 2009s has started already and is completely ramped up so more will be arriving this year. Holden will produce the car until 2012.
The intent behind the G8 was never to dominate the RWD car market by units moved. It was always about creating buzz, passion and press for the Pontiac brand as well as returning some of it’s lost glory. It’s also about selling most of what Holden can supply in the US.
So far it looks like GM has succeeded on all fronts with the G8.
I haven’t seen a Pontiac recieve this much interest by consumers and media in a long time. Even some writers on this site have admitted they like this car and it is a thoroughly likable car. Every news piece I see about this car generates a huge amount of response. That’s exactly what GM wants. This car is advertising itself all over for free. I haven’t even been able to test drive one here in Phoenix yet because they are selling within hours of arriving at the dealerships.
If you’re going to write about how a $32,000 half-price BMW will fail I think you should write another one about a certain $41,000 Hyundai’s prospects in the US next.
March 16th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Will this new GM Car be right hand drive too? Down under they drive on the same side of the Road as does the United Kingdom!
March 16th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
TriShield :
The intent behind the G8 was never to dominate the RWD car market by units moved. It was always about creating buzz, passion and press for the Pontiac brand as well as returning some of it’s lost glory.
The G8 was NEVER designed as a halo car. GM doesn't have the time/money nor the long-term branding focus to indulge in a halo car for Pontiac. As pch101 points out, the “lesser” Pontiacs are the more important products in the brand's lineup.
This is not a car that’s about sales numbers.
Nor is about profit, apparently.
GM original, publicly declared plan: import the G8 from Down Under just to get G8 sales juiced– so they could then start production in North America. And then make money. [NB: I’ve amended the text to indicate GM's need to make the vehicle in quantity.]
But once again, GM [correctly] expects the media to forget the bottom line and dangles a new, bright shiny object as proof they know what they're doing. But even when GM succeeds (e.g. Cadillac CTS, new Chevrolet Malibu), they neglect the bigger [branding] picture (e.g. Cadillac’s large sedans, the Chevy Aveo). Pontiac is a dead brand walking, and the G8 will not change that.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
RF: “Nor is about profit, apparently.”
The US dollar has fallen over 30% against the Australian dollar in the last 24 months. If there ever was any profit (doubtful) in importing the G8, it’s now certainly a big loss on each unit. It’s the Astra all over again. GM should hope the G8 is a sales bomb.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Firstly, I hate GM products for all the reasons that we write about on this website.
But I have to say that (hood intakes aside) I actually like the look of this car. This is the most well proportioned GM product since the modern Corvettes came out. I can’t speak for quality or durability, as only time will tell that one. And rear wheel drive, while (very) late, is the correct way to go with this type of car.
They should take this design and use it for Caddy. Redesign the Caddy logo (which is outdated and ugly on a modern car) and bam! you have sometime that you can try to compete with.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
gsp
They should take this design and use it for Caddy. Redesign the Caddy logo (which is outdated and ugly on a modern car) and bam! you have sometime that you can try to compete with.
Sure, another badge-engineered GM product. Count on it.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
A Commodore SV6 starts at $40k in Australia. The Australian dollar is almost at parity to the US dollar. The G8 V6 starts at, what $28K? What a deal/loss, depending on which side of the transaction you’re on.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Right car, wrong time. They should have been bringing these Aussie Holdens over years ago. Now they are going to cost GM more because they have to pay the Aussie factories in Aussie dollars. Like Canada, making cars in AU is going to be a lot more expensive for GM.
Also, rapidly rising fuel prices are going to scare a lot of people away from muscle cars for a while.
To their credit, GM already had this car. They just had on the other side of the planet. I agree that is is a nitch product. But it is one that should compete well within in its ever-shrinking nitch.
When it comes to marketing, I think that GM should look at AMG and Mercedes-Benz. There is no reason why GM can’t make an in-house “Aussie Muscle” performance line within Pontiac (basically, out Pontiacing Pontiac). They should make it very clear that these, and the new Utes, are not for everyone. They should be distinct and instantly recognizable. They need to put some distinctly Australian icon on it. Perhaps the Boxing Kangaroo?
No one wants to spend top dollar for just another Pontiac. But make is special, then it might convince some buyers to come over.
I was thinking about this a little more. Rather than look at how AMG is to Mercedes. Perhaps a better example is how FPV is tor Ford in Australia. Ford sells their AU muscles cars under the Ford Performance Vehicle sub-line. You don’t see much of the blue oval or “Ford” on the FPV site.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I wonder if there is a police package in the works. This has at least got to be better than the Panther and not understeer like the 300C, right?
Even in recessions, highway patrol is a revenue generating department and doesn’t have its budget cut.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
This looks like another one of Lutz’ fantasies.
Very few people are in the market for a car like this, and those who are probably are not going to be hanging around their Pontiac-Buick-GMC-Suzuki dealer lot waiting for it.
I agree completely that this is the wrong car at the wrong time being marketed by the wrong brand.
Pontiac hasn’t had a coherent brand image in decades, and the G8 isn’t going to fix that essential problem.
And by the way, why the heck isn’t it called a Bonneville? The G-spot naming has coincided with a precipitous drop in Pontiac sales, yet they keep doing more of the same.
March 16th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
I have to disagree a bit as the G8 will gain a few converts from other manufacters. One main difference is the G8 will be offered with manual. Some converts will come from places you least suspect, WRX and RX8 communities.
March 16th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
The G8 will only be offered in a manual with the LS3 packing GXP, which will cost more, get worse gas mileage and be even more of a niche vehicle than the V6 or GT versions.
March 16th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
I attended the 2000 Woodward Dream Cruise at the Phoenix Center in downtown Pontiac MI. Present were some dudes from the Australian GTO Club, with brochures of the 2000 Holden Commodore: base engine 3.8 V6, mid-range 3.8 Supercharged, top-line LS1 V8; Coupes, 4-Door Sedans, 5-Door Sedans, Wagons, and something called a Ute (?!). “Amazing!!! Why don’t WE have THESE?!”
“Cuz they weren’t DEVELOPED here”, came the “insider’s” reply…
2002…Lutz…
2004…GTO…
2000 and freakin’ EIGHT…THAT must be why they call it the G8…
As to marketing, and Pontiac, ’bout damn time, or this Division is in danger of being Olds’d. Halo models? Of course, and the GXP will be that, if Heinricy and the boys are left alone… Make it “NOT for everyone”? EXACTLY…and THAT’S what will drive off-brand folks to the door…
As to ass-kickin’ GM and Cherry/Lutz, there has been far too much from the Head Office folks (of ALL the Detroit Three) walkin’ ’round with BOTH hands coverin’ their butts, afraid to say/do ANYTHING for far too long… The Procter and Gamble Gang, God bless ‘em, are long gone, as are Roger’s Rogues, and at least these two are TRYING. With constrained budgets for REAL new development, the best for the moment seems to be “the best EXISTING” from wherever they might be/come. Give ‘em SOME credit… It wasn’t all that long ago (see paragraph one) when you would have been burned at the stake for such “travesties” as Astras and G8s, considered great products and/or Market leaders in their “native” countries.
Seems to me that all the parochial attitudes aren’t necessarily within the former Detroit Three’s “decision dens”. A few seem to be present, closely…
March 16th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Robert - I see your amendment re: the 20Kish sales and need for local production to create sufficient volume for profitability. And you elude to that having been the plan. You can envision Maximum Bob dreaming about Zeta Camaros, Impalas, G8s, Park Avenues and Cadillac some-letterTS streaming out of the GM plant in Canada blissfully ignoring the writing on the wall re: higher gas prices and more stringent fuel economy standards that would gut the market and/or profit from such products. Now the latest is that the Zeta based Impala is off (again), the G8 may be a one-generation orphan and only the higher margin Chinese based Buick and a Cadillac version will survive. Look no further than the G8 variants to see the commitment, or lack there of, to the platform in the only mildly revised GXP (compared to the HSV version)or the Pontiac (and not GMC) badged Ute. GM clearly didn’t want to spend more than they had to on these variants. And, where is the cool sport wagon? All of this begs the question re: the G8; If importing it from AU isn’t profitable and local production isn’t likely, meaning there won’t ever be significant volume, then why did they bother at all?
March 16th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
I can add the G8 to the Jaguar S-Type 4.2, Audi A8 and Lincoln Aviator in my fantasy stable of “excellent cars without excellent sales.”
FYI - a manual transmission *should* be available on all G8 models in short time. For launch, they shipped the volume configurations, so automatics only. But only for now.
March 16th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
From those who have driven it, it sounds like it’s a good car at a good price. That’s got to count for something. I will be sure to at least consider it when time comes to get another car, which is something I can’t say about anything else Pontiac builds. GM’s small block is truly one of the greatest engines out there for large, rear drive cars.
If they’re going to produce them locally, adding about 5-10” to the wheelbase/rear seat might be a good idea, to further set them apart from ever larger Accords/Camrys, and, in nicely optioned trim, provide a more frugal alternative to the S’s / 7’s / LS’s of the world. A large wagon built on this longer wheelbase would essentially be devoid of any direct competition. Not to mention a Bentley Azure sized convertible. As a closet CL addict, I would also like to see a hard top coupe, but….
I guess it all depends on how expensive it is to do different variations. Assuming it’s true that Pontiac finally has a globally competitive platform, and with both the dollar in the pits and unions malleable, I hope they can at least turn this one into a solid success.
March 16th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Lichronamo:
All of this begs the question re: the G8; If importing it from AU isn’t profitable and local production isn’t likely, meaning there won’t ever be significant volume, then why did they bother at all?
Answer: More twisted GM logic or the lack there of. Just look back to the Non-Pontiac Pontiac GTO (another Holden). Another low production volumn car that didn’t sell and it was axed. I truly believe that GM is trying to save a division that shouldn’t be saved. This car WON’T take any customers from Toyota, Honda, Mazda or Nissan (or any transplant for that matter). Most G8 customers will most likely come from another GM division or from FoMoCO and Chrysler (if they come from Chrysler, talk about trading for better !!!!!). Thinking this car will take customers form the transplants is a pipe dream on GM’s part. Just look at the new Malibu for a big dream to take customers from ToMoCo and Honda. Hasn’t happened in any big amount (and most likely won’t). And this G8 won’t do it either. I just wonder how long this car will last till GM kills it for lack of sales??? Just stick a fork in Pontiac GM…… It’s done !!!!!!!!!!
March 16th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
i’m sorry. i really pains me to admit this because gm put food on our family’s table and an excellent education within my grasp. my father worked for gm all of his life - as did many, many others in my old hometown - and one of my brother’s has 30 years there as well.
but i truly believe that the corporation’s senior management has had its head up its ass for so long that they simply no longer understand the complexities of the contemporary car business. nor the current realities confronting us.
March 17th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Robert,
Thanks for your editorial. I agree with a lot of what you posit, but there are a few gaps in your logic that have left me puzzled.
For example, why do you compare G8 with Accord & Camry? Malibu & Aura are intended to compete with the Japanese mid-size sedans, not G8. In fact, isn’t Malibu the “highly competitive 4-cyl sedan” you request of GM in your last paragraph?
G8 should NOT be marketed as a Japanese mid-sized sedan competitor. Positioning G8 as another Accord/Camry contender would be like GM’s philosophy of the 80s and 90s, which equipped each division with essentially the same vehicle and thus created competition among each division. The result was watered-down brand values which ultimately damaged any semblance of sportiness for Pontiac.
Now that GM is attempting to rectify Pontiac by offering a vehicle embodying Pontiac’s image of sportiness, why do you suggest that “instead of adding the G8 to their line-up, GM should have improved what they had”? Do you mean the Bonneville/Grand Prix? Do you really think an improved version of these vehicles is a better strategy than starting fresh with G8?
GM needs to continue to differentiate Pontiac from the rest of their divisions. I hope G8 is a harbinger of a refocused range. The next generation G6 must be a true enthusiast’s machine if GM wants to show they are serious about regaining any shred of Pontiac’s damaged reputation.
That said, I definitely agree with you that “Pontiac G8 is the wrong car at the wrong time for GM.” As many other posters have already indicated, GM has no excuse for not taking full advantage of selling Holden in North America many moons ago.
March 17th, 2008 at 1:24 am
I love the comment about the muscle car being dead. That has got to be the funniest thing I’ve read this month. Thanks for the humor.
March 17th, 2008 at 1:24 am
So the party line is in - the great helmsman in the shape of Rob F.has spoken and the G8 has to slink out of the garden of eden.
Some on this site mutter about the brand (which I still suggest is not as important as the product) the first half way decent brand fitting Pontiac for years and its pooh poohed,
I would suggest that there is another group that does Ok (still) for Ford and that is the Mustang.
If it can take 10k mustang owners and 15k Charger owners plus 7k for others; canniballed gm sales, truck defectors, rwd euro wannabes and fleet sales to police depts etc and they’re within sniffing distance of 30k.
Drop the G6 and G5 & spend that money on the Aura & Cobalt lord knows they need it
to be honest I suggest most people buy cars that are over 3 litres or are turbocharged are not that worried about the price of gas….(yet) apart from just being able to bitch about it.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:12 am
A conversation between maximum bob and Aussie holden subsidiary CEO.
Aussie- A
Bob- B
A. Hi, this is holden CEo, from Australia.
B. See ou what?
A. never mind. Mister Lutz we are in works of a new premium Wallabee -size sedan. And we need a platform from our mothership. meaning you.
B. Where the hell we are going to get a platform?…hmm, wait, we own opel…so I guess I could call them and ask an Omega old platform if they haven`t dumped it yet. Wait.. You could call yourself, i will connect you..wait..my receptionist will connect you.
A. ok, we could then freshen that opel up, and stack on a new tin upon it.
B. Don`t forget that i gave you that phone number MR. Foster`s or ..whatever. So you owe me one. So when you get that sedan done call me, So we can ship that kangaroo- babe through e-bay right to the shores of Michigan ocean. And don`t piss me off with your phone calls. We are kinda busy here. Ain`t easy to manage to stamp a pontiac triangle into a holden round logotype niche.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Holden spent something like a Billion dollars developing the VE/WM platform underpinning the Commodore, Lumina, G8, Park Avenue, some kind of Daewoo and now the Camaro - its not an Opel.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:56 am
TriShield :
March 16th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Hey Robert, there is a flaw in your premise for this article.
Holden cannot build 119,289 G8s per year for the US. This is not a car that’s about sales numbers.
Holden is a tiny operation with one plant. Last I heard the most they can produce is somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 units per year split between whatever body styles GM decides they want to sell in the US. The total production of 2008 G8s was 18,000 cars. Production of the 2009s has started already and is completely ramped up so more will be arriving this year. Holden will produce the car until 2012.
The intent behind the G8 was never to dominate the RWD car market by units moved. It was always about creating buzz, passion and press for the Pontiac brand as well as returning some of it’s lost glory. It’s also about selling most of what Holden can supply in the US.
So far it looks like GM has succeeded on all fronts with the G8.
I haven’t seen a Pontiac recieve this much interest by consumers and media in a long time. Even some writers on this site have admitted they like this car and it is a thoroughly likable car. Every news piece I see about this car generates a huge amount of response. That’s exactly what GM wants. This car is advertising itself all over for free. I haven’t even been able to test drive one here in Phoenix yet because they are selling within hours of arriving at the dealerships.
If you’re going to write about how a $32,000 half-price BMW will fail I think you should write another one about a certain $41,000 Hyundai’s prospects in the US next.
There are 18,000 G8s in the US? Why haven’t I seen one?
I’ve seen two Continental Flying Spurs in the past week, for Christ’s sake.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:03 am
The Zeta will underpin the G8, G8 sport truck, Camaro and probably 1-2 other models so they don’t need to sell 100k units.. I think Pontiac will enjoy larger sales than they have slated. When you are looking at only 2-3 MPG difference between a V-6 and V-8 many people (myself included) opt for the V-8.
The G6 needs to be switched to RWD to better focus the brand as well. Pontiac should be fun cars of all sizes, coupes, sedans, and convertibles.
There are a number of people who might have bought a Charger if the interior wasn’t Playschool plastic and there wasn’t a slushbox changing your gears. If you want a large V-8 car with RWD, well appointed and a manual what are your options? BMW 550 at 60k large and um, that’s it. The GXP will be BMW 550 at almost half the cost (betting 36-37k). It will trade the Bimmer’s cache and some interior quality for power, 400 + horses worth. Enthusiasts also always like having a Corvette engine, it’s probably why Pontiac was able to sell any suppository shaped GTO’s.
Here is a post from a Subaru WRX website on the G8. There isn’t much farther from and AWD rally machine than big RWD American/Aussie muscle but it has 300 plus replies…
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357375
March 17th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Steve_S:
If you want a large V-8 car with RWD, well appointed and a manual what are your options?
I remain to be convinced that the market is clamoring for this recipe. A number of enthusiasts, sure. [Note: the percentage of U.S. motorists who can drive a stick shift automobile is in the single digits.] Like many if not most of you, I'm sure I'd love to cane this car (in V8 form). But that's not the point of this editorial.
Again, GM is not a niche manufacturer and Pontiac isn't an up or even mid-market brand. Bottom line: the G8 can't make money for GM as an Australian import. Equally important, GM doesn't have the time to engage in halo cars. Unless the company can build popular, profitable, mainstream machines, the North American market will drag General Motors into C11.
I see no evidence of a true product-led turnaround at GM, although I see plenty of evidence of resources wasted on cars that can't possibly save them from that fate (e.g. the entire Saturn brand).
March 17th, 2008 at 10:19 am
it’s probably why Pontiac was able to sell any suppository shaped GTO’s.
That’s the point: Pontiac wasn’t able to do any such thing. The GTO was a flop — Pontiac couldn’t hit the original 18,000 units projected, and cut production back by a third due to the tepid demand, before killing the car entirely. There was initial hype when it first hit the showrooms, but that fell off quickly.
For the G8 to succeed, it needs to avoid following in the footsteps of the GTO if it is to avoid falling short of selling 20,000 units. Personally, I think that it has a decent chance of hitting that figure, as the sedan should be more practical than was the GTO coupe, but the last thing Pontiac should aspire to do is to repeat GTO history.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:34 am
This car would have worked better as a Chevrolet (Bel Air? Caprice?). Chevrolet at least has some leaders in their respective segments - Corvette, Silverado, Suburban/Tahoe - along with a new sedan - the Malibu - that is a worthy contender.
Some of the showroom traffic this car generates could then be steered toward one of those vehicles, which are at least viable choices in today’s market.
Pontiac is a dead brand walking, and it will drag this (worthy) car down with it.
March 17th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Oh I agree that what GM needs is bread and butter mainstream products that are cheaper and better than the competition. However I do think the G8 fits into what Pontiac is supposed to be about. Ideally it should have been out 5 years ago. The GTO should have also been much better looking and it would have sold more. Pontiac is never going to be a volume brand nor should they be. They should be the Go Fast brand of GM where all the toys are. Of course it seems Chevy is more geared for this with the Corvette and upcoming Camaro. These really should be in Pontiac’s line-up. The problem is they both have a long history with Chevy, especially strong with the Corvette that you can’t move them.
Ideally Pontiac, GMC and Buick should go the way of Oldsmobile but that costs too much money so you have to work with what you have and hope by making some good cars of any type it will be enough to not be in the red.
Is the G8 the type of car that GM needs? No but once you spread around the Zeta platform costs it won’t be a big deal. It will get the company some good press and reviews. It will make some enthusiast happy. Or dads who can’t get a coupe/performance/sports car but want a little of the fun anyway. Some tail out shenanigans and tire smoke keep you sane when your life is filled with diapers and sippy cups.
March 17th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
RF- “Unfortunately, lackluster large sedan sales lead us to conclude that most SUV escapees are “trading down” to slightly more fuel-efficient CUVs or “all the way” to four-cylinder sedans.”
You hit the nail right on the head with that one. If you want to save money by being more efficient, you really cannot do it without going all the way down unless you drive over 25k a year.
The problem is that people are not realizing that many of these CUV’s are not going to hold up any better than the sedans. They are not body on frame or built to last like a real truck.
When people find out that the modern CUV is no better a product than the modern sedan or wagon then perhaps they will return to those, OR go back to truck based SUV’s. Or,keep buying them anyway.
As far as the G8 goes, it’s really another sign of GM’s total lack of direction. They need too much volume to NOT beat the Camcord. At this point, they really have no other choice than to put all the best heads into one or two groups. Continuing to create all these niche cars is a distraction they can no longer afford. It’s time for the big gamble.
March 17th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Brendan:
Lots of people who can’t afford a 5 who will get a G8??? You need to check what’s in your cool aid!! If I can’t afford a 5 Series, I’d probably get a 3 Series. If I want more room and a domestic option, the CTS comes to mind. G8??? Not a chance. 5 Series owners don’t buy muscle cars.
March 17th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Some of you guys sound like a bunch of Disco fans that just can’t accept the fact that the world has moved on from that fad.
1. lets face facts and admit that the BMW 3series and the Infiniti 35/37 have the $30,000+ RWD market just about wraped up in the USA. Both cars can be equipied with a manual and both cars are powerful and fast enough for the vast majority of customers.
2. I know many are loath to admit it but the GTO was actually done in by the g35 coupe that came to market at just about the same time. The g35 was fast and powerful when equiped with the manu-matic autobox, it could also be purchased with a decent 6spd stick (which you could actually find for sale!) 280+hp and 260 lb ft of torque are MORE than enough for the REAL people that actually have the funds to purchase a $35,000 car.
3. With cars routinely being equiped with over 250hp and 5+ gears in shiftable autoboxes, aint too many folks clamoring for a big powerful engine and a stick nowadays. Lets not forget a great deal of the popularity of the manual transmisson that we saw in the late 1970s and the 1980s was due to the vast influx of “low-torque” 4 cyl foreign cars that when equpied for the USA with power accessories and AC did NOT perform well with an AT (in normal use).
Note: the big 2.8 were very resistant to selling manual transmission throughout this period. So do not fool yourselves, domestic fans generally DO NOT drive stick.
4. Like it or not the G8 is a Pontiac so it will compete with the likes of Accords and Camrys. In this field RWD is NOT an advantage. It is a space killing, extra fuel consuming, hard to drive in bad weather car. Yeap, it has all the traditional atributes that drove Americans right into the arms of the FWD masters (Japanese). How quickly we forget about those oh so fun burn-outs when the snow starts to fall!
5. The styling is once again a typical GM deal breaker. All of the silly hood scoops and fender slats remind far too many potential costumers of GM/Pontiac’s “contrived excitement” of the 1980s and 1990s. Pontiac does have a well known recent history of selling “all show no go” cars. The G8 has that sorry “high-school teen-age boy” fantasy look to it, aint too many wives out here that want to transport the children in a wannabe boy-racer. The same goes for the current drivers of 3 series and g35s, I doubt GM we see any cross-shopping with this thing.
6. $32,000+ and no Navigation system??? Now we come to the realization that a v8 G8 would be a $35,000 car if equiped to the level of a fully loaded Accord v6.
7. Back to the Accord. The Accord does so well because it does NOT seek to deliver excitement BUT it is a good car with fairly entertaining dynamics. It is powerful and it does handle well. If you want more, upgrade the rims and tires, quite simple. Folks buy Accords because it is a serious car that does not make the owner look or feel silly in anyway. The Accord does not make UNNECESSARY statements about the driver like a G8 will. Some may like and want that many, many other do NOT!
Oh, it is fast though……….
March 17th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
While all the above speculation may sound well reasoned but I may venture to suggest that it is maybe premature to cast judgement on the G8? There are many factors that decide the fate of a car so lets stand back and let the market decide.
While GM has no shortage of problems, there does appear to be a slight schizophrenia afflicting its critics when they make calls for GM to make cars that embody American traditions and not trying to out-Camry the Camry and on the other hand suggesting that they should produce automotive appliances. Maybe it shouod be one or the other?
As for gas prices killin the G8? Not likely - for a driver putting 12,000 miles on a car per year the yearly gas cost difference between an 18mpg car and a 22mpg car is $424 even if gas averages $3.50. Compared to new car depreciation and the cost of finance, this is not a deal killer for anyone looking for a roomy sedan that is also more fun to drive than the average FWD Camcord.
March 17th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
carguy:
While GM has no shortage of problems, there does appear to be a slight schizophrenia afflicting its critics when they make calls for GM to make cars that embody American traditions and not trying to out-Camry the Camry and on the other hand suggesting that they should produce automotive appliances. Maybe it should be one or the other?
Point taken. But Cadillac is the logical place for a large, thirsty, rear wheel-drive V8-powered GM-mobile. And if it’s NOT, if we’re going downmarket, then it needs to be price/power/mpg competitive. Or, at the very least, beautifully styled. And badged a Chevy with, perhaps, a hi-po Pontiac version (although I would argue Pontiac has no raison d’etre).
Your thoughts may vary, but one thing is for sure. GM is not making money on this car. So what the Hell is the point? Halo car for a dead brand? How great is THAT?
March 17th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
This car would have worked better as a Chevrolet (Bel Air? Caprice?).
Why geeber, that’s the very car I’ve been waiting for since they stopped making the last one.
I would throw out a wild posit that N. Americans never stopped wanting a full-size car, they just didn’t want one that was thirsty, slow, and cumbersome.
If I’m wrong then why does every version of the Accord and Camry keep getting larger? Sure, N. Americans are getting a little wider in the girth department, but that can’t be the only reason.
Remember that there’s plenty of former Caprice et al. owners parked in Tahoes and Silverados.
As an addendum, I would just say that to my first paragraph, fake hood scoops = asking for lower sales. I won’t buy a G8 and spend over a grand replacing the hood, and neither will thousands of other prospective buyers.
March 17th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
This car should have been a Chevy.
The Pontiac brand is tarnished beyond repair.
I even owned a GTO for a time being. It was OK… a little better than the rest of GM products, but that is like being the beauty queen at fat camp!
March 17th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
RF: Agreed - this car won’t make a dime for GM particularly the way the US dollar is plummeting. But depending on how it is received by the market it will give them an opportunity to gauge if they should re-enter the mainstream RWD market here in the US or not without risking too much in the way of infrastructure investments. At worst they can just stop importing it and leave the Aussies to further pursue the Middle Eastern, South African and domestic markets.
March 17th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Very interesting. The 17/25 mileage numbers being thrown around for the V6 G8 is identical to the real-world numbers I am getting out of my LS2-powered GTO. And the Accord V6 is only marginally better to boot.
As Elmer Fudd used to say: “There’s something awful screwy going on around here!”
March 17th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
In Australia and NEw Zealand, gasoline costs at least $7 or $8 per gallon. And yet they still sell.
Why?
March 17th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I think the point that too many folks are missing is that the current Accord and CAmry are about as close to a traditional domestic car as you can get.
Stop looking at speciality versions of former domestic models and inferring that older domestic cars were fun to drive and exciting. That is NOT the truth!
GTO, Mustang Gt350s, Corvettes, and Camaro SSs were NOT the norm for domestic cars of the 1960s so it is time to stop pretending such.
Your average 1960s domestic iron was a rather boring uninspired POS that was simply built in medium, large, and extra large. It could be purchased with a very powerful engine if you wanted, but outside of that what was the big deal?
Needless to say with exception of a few Detriot pistonheads a great deal of Americans became aware of the fact that Detroit iron, with it bloated body on frame construction was played out by the 1970s.
For those that did not “get” the Muscle Car thing, domestic cars of the early 1970s were akin to parade floats with their oversized bodies riding on puny 14″ rims and tires.
Put another way a BMW 2002 began to look like a “real” car while Impalas adn Eldorados of that era began to look “fake”, with that living-room on wheels effect.
For GM to want to return to that era with cars like the G8 and Camaro speaks a great deal about how GM is drinking its own posionous kool-aide. These cars died back than because America moved on to better cars. GM really needs to ask itself why folks began buying cars like Saab99s and Toyota Celicas over Camaros and Firebirds in the late 1970s.
Forget about the little fuel sipping Corolla shitboxes of that era. It is time to talk about why GM also began losing the higher-end sales too. Not only were GMs cars of that era junk, GM’s formula for making cars was also DEAD!
March 17th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
A superb article. Farago really nails it. We’ve all had conflicting feelings about the G8 that defied articulation.
We all favor RWD but dislike the fuel economy penalty.
We all are entranced by the massive 8cyl, but we know it’s a dinosaur, given current gas prices.
We all like the standard 6cyl, but we know people prefer 2 fewer cylinders.
We all like to buy domestic, but we’re less enthused when the “domestic” is built in another country and presented as American iron.
The new Taurus is a massive sedan with a modern 6cyl. It does everything right. But no one buys it. will this happen to the G8???
March 17th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
The new Taurus is a massive sedan with a modern 6cyl. It does everything right. But no one buys it. will this happen to the G8???
Your Reputation is EVERYTHING!
That simple fact was drilled into my head as a child. If you shit all over your own name you have no one to blame but yourself when the world turns it back on you.
Ford needs to learn this simple fact. The Tauras was a great car for about 5 to 7 years than Ford neglected it for about 10 years. Now the public thinks of the Tauras as the POS car that it has been since the mid 1990s not the great car it was over 20 years ago when it first hit the market.
March 17th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
whatdoiknow1: For GM to want to return to that era with cars like the G8 and Camaro speaks a great deal about how GM is drinking its own posionous kool-aide. These cars died back than because America moved on to better cars. GM really needs to ask itself why folks began buying cars like Saab99s and Toyota Celicas over Camaros and Firebirds in the late 1970s.
Camaros and Firebirds outsold Saab 99s and Toyota Celicas many times over even in the late 1970s, and today are worth more today in mint condition than either of those two cars. I have nothing against foreign cars - I drive a Honda - but I can tell you that a nice Camaro/Firebird will be sold quite quickly at a Carlisle Productions event, but the demand for old Toyotas - and, to lesser extent, old Saabs - just isn’t there.
The Pontiac G8 is a very good car. It has sound braking and handling, excellent performance and good ergonomics. This car’s problems are not so much with the car itself, but center more on its parent brand (Pontiac is dying), currency exchange problems and the fickle nature of GM’s management.
If GM is losing money on each car sold, the corporation will soon bail and leave G8 owners high and dry. GM wants some good publicity and favorable reviews of a GM product. Once the initial rush is over, I just don’t believe that GM will remain committed to this car.
March 17th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Geeber and WhatdoIknow,
Are you guys dancing around the idea of the automotive appliance? Hasn’t the market changed a lot? Don’t a lot less people identify with their car choice than they used to?
Also, was the camaro the bread and butter car, or was it the caprice and impala? Where was the money made back then? Last week, they were making their money on SUV’s. The problem is they don’t know where the money is today, or at least they cannot compete there.
March 17th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Would the U.S. be better off without the 2.8? These companies have not been good stock investments for 30 years. An investor would have done better by putting his money under his mattress. These manufacturers tie up enormous amounts of real estate and raw materials. They tie up labor that could have been better used in making high end machine tools, building solar panels, or as consulting engineers on high tech projects around the world.
The auto industry has had its run. Lets shed it out of our system and move on.
We can buy Chinese cars at Best Buy in the future.
March 17th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Geeber,
Your arguement is helping make my case regarding GMs failure in the past and it inablity to correct its course today.
I bet GM exec look at Camaros and Firebirds in the same light; “Well if a few guys with cash to burn are buying old ones today there MUST be a market for a current verison.”
What GM and the rest of the Domestics refuse to acknowledge is that the Muscle car era came before such wonderful mainstream technologies like: fuel-injection, turbochargers, raidal tires, alloy engines, IRS, 4 wheel disc brakes, monoque chasis, 5spd gearboxes, etc.
The fact that the big 2.8 stayed true to obsolete technology when the rest of the world had moved on lead them into their myopic view of the automotive world.
The Muscle car era came to an end because its time had passed. The technology listed above made these cars unnecessary by the 1980s as they are today. That technology made big front heavy v8 powerd cars less attractive. The fact of the matter is the American Muscle car era existed at a time when these was really little to NO alternative for performance in the US marketplace.
If you look at the 1970s there was already a host of little sports cars that were taking bites out of the performance pie at that time. MGs, Fiat, 240z, 914, TR6/ TR7, Alfa spiders, Karmann Ghias etc. were all fairly new at the end of the muscle car era. Now lets add to that 2002s, Bavarias, Datsun 510s, Audi Foxes, Volvo 1800s, Saab 99s, Alfa Sedans, Pegouts, etc.
Except for the true fans, cars like Roadrunners, jacked-up Chavelles, and Mustang MachIs began to seem rather unsafisticated and old fashion. Muscle cars became synonymous with hood scoops, body decals, wings, raised white letter on the tires, jacked up rear ends, and oversized exhuasts. This caused Detroit to begin to lose the educated professionals as customers as they ran to the “new” clean and modern BMWs, euro sports cars, and even 240zs.
March 17th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Landcrusher: Are you guys dancing around the idea of the automotive appliance? Hasn’t the market changed a lot? Don’t a lot less people identify with their car choice than they used to?
Most people I know still take pride in their automotive purchase. A new vehicle is still a big investment for them.
And there is more brand loyalty than you would think, especially among middle-class and upper-middle class buyers. Most people I know who switch brands were either burned by their current car, and wanted nothing to do with that manufacturer, or could afford to move up to their “dream” car (”I had an Accord, but now I can afford a BMW.”).
Landcrusher: Also, was the camaro the bread and butter car, or was it the caprice and impala? Where was the money made back then?
In those days, GM made money on everything except the smallest cars. You really can’t compare it to today.
By strict sales numbers, the Chevrolet Impala and Caprice were the division’s bread-and-butter cars. The Impala/Caprice and the Oldsmobile Cutlass were jockeying for first place in the sales race among ALL cars (not just GM cars) in the late 1970s. The Impala/Caprice and Cutlass Supreme each sold about 600,000 each annually.
The Camaro alone was selling 250,000+ by the late 1970s, and the Firebird was pulling down similar numbers. And I’m sure that the profits were quite hefty on those old pony cars, too. Remember that the Camaro and Firebird were generating those numbers with ONE bodystyle (two-door coupe). GM’s full-size cars and intermediates still offered a full line of wagons, four-door sedans and two-door coupes.
whatdoiknow1: I bet GM exec look at Camaros and Firebirds in the same light; “Well if a few guys with cash to burn are buying old ones today there MUST be a market for a current verison.”
What GM and the rest of the Domestics refuse to acknowledge is that the Muscle car era came before such wonderful mainstream technologies like: fuel-injection, turbochargers, raidal tires, alloy engines, IRS, 4 wheel disc brakes, monoque chasis, 5spd gearboxes, etc.
That would be valid if GM were bringing out cars with retro-technology. Unless you consider a rear-wheel-drive layout to be old-fashioned, in which case you may want to have a word with BMW and Mercedes. And it has been pretty well established that GM’s smallblock ohv V-8 can hold its head up in any crowd.
GM isn’t bringing out a new Camaro (or the G8) with four-wheel-drum brakes and carburetors. Those cars are up-to-date mechanically. The Camaro offers retro-styling - which is hardly a bad thing - but the G8 certainly looks up-to-date to me.
whatdoiknow1: Muscle cars became synonymous with hood scoops, body decals, wings, raised white letter on the tires, jacked up rear ends, and oversized exhuasts. This caused Detroit to begin to lose the educated professionals as customers as they ran to the “new” clean and modern BMWs, euro sports cars, and even 240zs.
Come with me to a Carlisle Productions event, or the big Antique Automobile Club of America (AACA) fall meet at Hershey. You’ll see that those educated professionals are paying big bucks for those muscle cars. Meanwhile, Fiat X1/9s, Audi Foxes, Saab 99s and Datsun 240zs languish…you’ll have a tough time giving them away.
What killed muscle cars were high insurance rates and pollution control standards. Note that the Camaro Z-28 and Firebird Trans Am - the last vestiges of Detroit muscle - were still outselling all of the foreign cars you mention many times over by the late 1970s.
Detroit’s problem wasn’t that it made cars like the Camaro and Firebird. They had a very loyal and proven audience, and GM would have been stupid to walk away from those very profitable sales. The problem was that Detroit didn’t also address those who did want something different in a performance car. There was (and is) room for both in the marketplace.
GM’s problem isn’t that it is offering the Pontiac G8. The problem is that it is selling it as a Pontiac (when it should be a Chevrolet), and it is not making money on it (which means the temptation to pull the plug will be very great), and that even with the G8, GM still needs something to compete with the Civic Si and Accord V-6, six-speed coupe (because not all performance-oriented buyers want the same thing).
March 17th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Geeber,
I just finished reading an article on the new Dodge Challanger. There was one very insightful peice of information in it that I had not thought about before. The Challanger weighs so much because of the current side impact standards.
Now I will admit I used to think WTF is wrong with DC, simple take a Charger and cut it make a two door and get on with business. Now (if the info I read is correct) I understand that it was not so simple, the sides of the Charger had to be re-engineered to to meet current safety standards. The lose of the B-pillar in the Charger is a big deal that needed to be compensated for.
Why do I mention this? Because it gives me a better understanding of the problems that are facing Detroit. I used to ask why did Ford ang GM abandon that large personal coupe market in the 1980s. Now I understand some of the other factors that prevent the Big 2.8n from doing well today what they did so well in the past.
By looking backwards the Big 2.8 have set themselves up to run right smack into the same wall they ran into over 30 years ago. Big heavy 4000+lb RWD cars equiped with gas sucking v8s, built on platforms that would suck with anything less than a big v6 installed. The Camaro of the 1980s and 1990s face this exact problem, as a z28 or IROC it was a very fun car worth owning until the warranty was used up. Equiped without the v8 and performance parts it was one dog of a car that did nothing well; no cargo room, no passanger room, poor handling, relatively poor economy, not very powerful, cheap interior, very heavy, etc. What you have is a car that is put to shame by a Accord coupe.
March 17th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
The bottom line is that even if this new model does well in sales, it will do little if anything to stop GM’s financial slide. Today GM stock price closed at its lowest level since 1962! That’s 1962 folks, when money was worth a lot more. New car sales this year are going to be so low it is going to be gruesome.
Market Cap of GM is barely $10 billion dollars, they are gasping for air at this point.
March 17th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Um, why would I pay almost $30K for a Pontiac when for another $2-3K or so, I could be driving a Caddy?
March 17th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
If GM were on its game it would have a high MPG version of this car[now] very very soon. If they had a model of this car that could manage a real world 25 MPG it could sell well. Hybrid, Diesel ,or whatever it takes.
March 17th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
# folkdancer :
March 17th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
“Would the U.S. be better off without the 2.8? These companies have not been good stock investments for 30 years. An investor would have done better by putting his money under his mattress.”
I’m sure that Frank Williams or someone here could chime in with facts and figures but the above statement is not true. If you were a prudent investor and got in and out of auto stocks *after* the bottom and *before* the top you would have made incredible money. Notice I didn’t say at the bottom and at the top. Nobody can predict where that is. But it’s easy to read the trends. Hey, that’s why their called “cyclical” stocks. If you had been invested in Ford in the 1980’s when it was PRINTING money you would have made out very well. Chrysler stock dropped to $2 and change a share in the early 80’s, and I don’t blame anyone if they didn’t buy at that price since no one knew if the company was going to survive but once they started making money again you would have been foolish to not get in. The stock ended up at $72 a share - and then it split.
True story: When I was following the auto industry more closely and Chrysler was in the doldrums in the late 80’s early 90’s (remember candidate Clinton’s “worst economy of the last 50 years” spiel?) I told my doctor when “Chrysler stock drops to $15 buy some, they have some new models coming out that look really good”. The stock ended up bottoming out at $9 and change. Within a few years it was in the high $60’s.
“What killed muscle cars were high insurance rates and pollution control standards. Note that the Camaro Z-28 and Firebird Trans Am - the last vestiges of Detroit muscle - were still outselling all of the foreign cars you mention many times over by the late 1970s.”
Geeber, you took the words right out of my mouth. People didn’t wake up one day and say “Hey, I could’ve had a TR7″ and stop buying muscle cars.
Whatdoiknow1, your understanding about the weight issue with the Challenger because of safety regulations beings up another topic. Detroit had so many engineers working on pollution control systems in the 1970’s that other areas, like quality, took a back seat. I would like to see an article that explores how government pollution and safety mandates have hurt (or helped) the Detroit 3 and the transplants.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
What killed muscle cars were high insurance rates and pollution control standards. Note that the Camaro Z-28 and Firebird Trans Am - the last vestiges of Detroit muscle - were still outselling all of the foreign cars you mention many times over by the late 1970s.
While I wouldn’t dismiss those issues entirely, I don’t see this as being central to the issue.
I see the muscle car’s primary challenge as being that there is simply a lot more competition that is considered to be acceptable. If you want a big cheap platform with the roar of a V-8, you can choose from a whole cadre of trucks and SUV’s that provide reasonable comfort and straight-line performance.
If you want that performance in an affordable sedan body, you can choose from a wide variety of transplants and imports that are actually faster than the 60’s-era pony and muscle cars. (For one example, a ‘65 Mustang with a 289 needed 7.5 seconds to hit 60 mph, which is substantially slower than the V-6 Accords, Camrys and the rest.) And if you want something with more finesse, you have near-luxury and luxury cars from Germany and Japan that will serve that need.
Market tastes changed, leaving Detroit left holding the bag. There seems to be this persistent belief that they can recapture the glory days by repeating what they did before, but they forget that the market’s definition of what is glorious has moved on.
Somebody in Detroit needs to figure out how to make interesting, uniquely American cars on smaller platforms so that they appear to be bona fide legitimate contenders instead of half-assed Civic wannabes. There is a place for the G8, but it is a small place and can’t sell in large enough numbers to be profitable. At this time of crisis, I have to question whether building hype for this thing is the best use of its resources, when it has no chance of producing enough revenue, profit or market share to make any difference.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
The G8 is a larger car and not really a competitor with Camry & Accord. Those FWD sedans are comparable to Malibu, G6, & Aura, which get comparable gas mileage. A better comparison is the BMW 5 series, although the G8 is still a bit larger, and of course, much less expensive.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
I think most will be surprised by the sales of the G8 and Camaro. Both will sell pretty well, the G8 to a lesser degree than the Camaro but there is a market here. I for one have a Camaro at the top of my list and my last 4 cars have been Japanese.
When shopping for a car I try to balance several criteria. I want a car that is good looking, fast, handles well, well apointed yet affordable. These are hard traits to find in one package. If I were looking for a sedan a G8 GXP would be on the top of my list. Since I’m looking for a coupe the Camaro fits the bill. The BMW 135 does as well except it cost too much.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
If GM must play in this niche, the car should have been a Chevrolet. It could then be marketed as the sedan partner to the Camaro for those who want the V-8 muscle car thing but also need four doors and comfortable seating for four real sized people.
This whole silly notion about Pontiac being GM’s performance brand flies in the face of history and logic. Yes, Pontiac has made some performance cars over the years, but that was never it’s bread and butter. Corvette is the enduring performance nameplate for GM. Selling the Camaro, G8 (with a real name!) & Corvette side by side would make some real sense. The El Camino version of the G8 being talked about could then be called the …. wait … big reveal …. El Camino!
March 17th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
I wonder: Why all the chatter about fuel economy? This is a performance car. The G8 GT is the most powerful car available for under $30 grand! It is larger and more powerful than an Infiniti M45(for less than a G35). It is closer in size to a Lexus LS460 than the GS460 (which it out powers). It gets better fuel economy than those similar sized and powered cars. It is a well balanced, great handling car and offers the best performance value around. The V6 is a solid performer, for such a large car. There is a market for this car. It is not intended to compete for best selling midsize family sedan, but is likely to appeal very much to anyone who wants a large, stylish high performance sedan.
March 17th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
It is larger and more powerful than an Infiniti M45(for less than a G35). It is closer in size to a Lexus LS460 than the GS460 (which it out powers).
The size argument is not persuasive to the marketplace. The market will happily pay more for a smaller transplant or import because they otherwise prefer the cars.
Detroit needs to learn that size does not ensure a price premium and is not perceived as a source of value. Buyers want a high quality product, not necessarily a large product, and will often prefer smaller and better to larger but worse.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Regarding comparisons of the V6 G8 (what an awful product name) and V6 Camrys and Accords…I’m not sure that’s the point. It always stunned me that most SUVs are 2 wheel drive…I frequently drive in mountain snow and always wondered how, exactly, 2 wheel drive SUV’s qualified as _utile_. I’m guessing there’s a market consisting of insecure people who want to be seen as having the baddest truck, fastest car, etc., without entailing the costs of the bad truck, fast car.
By that standard, I’m guessing the G8 V8 (gack, I hate that name) should be compared against it’s competition, and the V6 version should be loosely compared against the V6 versions of the V8 competition. I’d be surprised if anyone comparison-shopped the G8V6 (please fix that name!) against a V6 Camry, but while the G8VAACK! won’t lead me to buy GM stock I doubt it’s sales will be 0.
March 17th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
what GM really needs to survive is a single, highly competitive four-cylinder sedan. Instead of adding the G8 to their line-up, GM should have improved what they had.
GM have basically done this with the Epsilon cars (G6, Aura, Malibu), all of which are vast improvements over their predecessors (and each other.) No, GM doesn’t need three of these cars - but they are doing what you recommend. Since they’re already doing that, what’s wrong with trying to break into a segment dominated by one manufacturer?
To the cannibalization argument - I don’t think Buick or Cadillac customers are likely to end up in Pontiacs. Where I find that to be a more valid concern is with the Impala - not the current W-body version (dead car walking) but the next, which appears likely to be a Zeta car like the G8. Chevy may have its G8 in a few years.
The trend over the last couple decades has been toward bigger sedans with more powerful engines. At a certain size point, RWD platforms with V-8 options make sense. Chrysler jumped in with the 300 and the Charger; Ford hasn’t bought in yet, preferring to keep the Panther on life support. For GM, the G8 is a hedge bet to stay in the game. The direction they take with the Impala will tell us what they really believe about the future of American sedans.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
GM’s aversion to compact cars will be their death.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
“Detroit needs to learn that size does not ensure a price premium and is not perceived as a source of value. Buyers want a high quality product, not necessarily a large product, and will often prefer smaller and better to larger but worse.”
Based on the recent Accord and Camry re-do’s, I’d say Detroit isn’t the only one who needs to learn that.
March 17th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
If you want a big cheap platform with the roar of a V-8, you can choose from a whole cadre of trucks and SUV’s that provide reasonable comfort and straight-line performance.
a truck or an SUV?!??!?! no thanks
March 17th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
GM will never learn from any mistakes. I’ll never, EVER buy a GM product. Proud owner of Japanese automobiles!
March 17th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Theodore:
GM have basically done this with the Epsilon cars (G6, Aura, Malibu), all of which are vast improvements over their predecessors (and each other.)
One out of three isn’t bad - but together won’t match the volume of the Accord or Camry. Maybe instead of sending engineers half-way around the world for a niche product for a dead brand, these same engineers should have been in the Malibu plant figuring out why its taking so long to ramp up production of a variant on an existing platform…
March 18th, 2008 at 2:11 am
Can GM do anything to please you, Robert?
GM didn’t develop this car; Holden did, and the platform would have existed regardless of an intent to import the vehicle here. GM’s additional costs consist of certifying it, shipping it, and slapping on a new grille. The result is that Pontiac gets an attractive, powerful, and understated canyon carver that has all the appeal of the E39 BMW M5, while GM can focus on precisely the type of FWD mommymobile you’re inexplicably comparing to the G8.
“They want brand rep, reliability, comfort, a competitive sticker price and maximum fuel efficiency– and not necessarily in that order.”
“And anyway, six-cylinder Accords and Camrys do NOT account for the majority of the models’ sales. They are easily and completely outsold by variants with more fuel efficient four-cylinder engines; which the G8 doesn’t offer.”
Why might that be? Perhaps because the Camry is intended for a different demographic, for which GM already has the Malibu, the Aura, and the G6?
Pontiac can be a cheap BMW. That’s what Lutz is shooting for, and that’s what he’s achieved with the G8. Strip the luxury gimmicks, improve the styling, keep the performance. There are quite a lot of us that have been chomping at the bit for an American alternative to overpriced and overcacheted 3-Series, IS350s, and G35s, a car that can take corners, and a car that doesn’t have the Jeremy Clarkson’s of the world laughing at us.
It’s finally here, but for some reason, you’ve pidgeonholed it as a dying “muscle car,” whatever that is. Presumably the 550i, the M5, the Infinity M45, the S-Class, and every other car with a big engine also fit within, and are therefore dying as well.
“Again, GM is not a niche manufacturer and Pontiac isn’t an up or even mid-market brand. Bottom line: the G8 can’t make money for GM as an Australian import.”
Two problems here: First, it’s about the product, not the brand. Chevrolet is selling Malibus in droves, and it doesn’t make the slightest difference to those buyers that the Aveo is a piece of shit.
Second, it doesn’t matter if they’re only breaking even (already a dubious assertion). The only detrimental effect of the G8 is to fleet CAFE numbers; everything other effect is positive.
The G8 may not be the savior of GM, but it’s hardly the lost cause you make it out to be. It’s one of the first American cars without “Corvette” on the hood that can handle, and that’s an achievement worth applauding.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:16 am
ttilley,
You keep wondering up there in the mountains. When you come down, you might discover that everyone doesn’t live in the mountains, and therefore, does not need 4wd. (Now if you are reading this still in the mountains, try not to think to hard in the thin air).
The insecure would obviously buy the 4wd lest they get discovered as poseurs. What are you thinking?
OTOH, people who live in other areas might not need the 4wd, but still desire the other utility offered - hauling, clearance, longevity, fording, etc.
I used to drive my 2wd pick up along tank trails while snaking between stuck military vehicles - all 4wd or 6×6 - so I might wonder who the hell needs 4wd? OTOH, I am more open minded than that, so I don’t have to wonder, and certainly don’t have to insult them. (Fair disclosure: I did get stuck once, but the 2nd lieutenant jokes stopped as soon as I cut a branch off of an evergreen, stuck it under the tire, and drove off again.)
Now, wouldn’t that have been easier without insulting people for their choices?
March 18th, 2008 at 3:56 am
Yep uh oh for the planners at the former DCX and GM now with the G8 and $110 bbl oil. OH that front end what did they do to the pretty Holden? I’d have to import a Holden front bumper cover.
Anyway GM should have been rolling out a Volt or a good hybrid G1 hatch/sedan for Pontiac to compete with the Prius at $23k like, yesterday. Should have gone on sale Jan 1st, 2008.
How about the former DCX? All that access to Mercedes know how and they brought the Aspen? They should have brought a hydrogen powered Neon out by now or brought back the freaking turbine car. Something to inspire import buyers to have come back to an american brand.
Who wouldn’t be thrilled about a mini Chevy Volt that used a small 1 liter diesel-electric hybrid drivetrain and got 80mpg for $25k with air conditioning and ipod jack? I know alot of people who wouldn’t consider a GM or Chrysler would have been very interested. I would have figured a reaction by the buying public like the original Mustang.
These guys need a home run and soon. I don’t mean $100,000 sports cars but something that can sell seven hundred thousand units a year at a profit!
March 18th, 2008 at 8:57 am
I love this site’s obsession with GM. The mirror has crack’d, methinks. Besides, I believe despite declining market share, GM is still the world’s largest auto maker. They will survive. I hope you Camry buyers are prepared to pay 50% of your own health care in old age, since your buying habits are subsidizing Japan’s single-payer social health plan.I know, to appeal to someone’s patriotism to get them to buy a car is tired, but given the lack of political leadership from my peers, it seems a small sacrifice for the years of good earnings and lifestyle the car business has afforded me and my family. Throw stones, if you must, but be conscious by your absence on the bandwagon when it finally gets back on track.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:30 am
Pch101: I see the muscle car’s primary challenge as being that there is simply a lot more competition that is considered to be acceptable. If you want a big cheap platform with the roar of a V-8, you can choose from a whole cadre of trucks and SUV’s that provide reasonable comfort and straight-line performance.
Very true…but, unlike the muscle cars of yore, the G8 doesn’t strike me as a one-trick pony. This is a car that can also carry four people in comfort, and also offers decent handling and braking.
Pch101: There is a place for the G8, but it is a small place and can’t sell in large enough numbers to be profitable. At this time of crisis, I have to question whether building hype for this thing is the best use of its resources, when it has no chance of producing enough revenue, profit or market share to make any difference.
I agree with you that what GM really needs is a Cobalt and an Aveo that can compete with the Civic and Fit. GM does yet not have these cars.
But GM already had G8, so it was a matter of changing the badges and advertising it for the U.S. The big problem I see is that it should have been a Chevrolet; it fits in better with the rest of the lineup, and could have drawn in people who might have left in a Malibu. Pontiac is a fading brand; using this car to hype a dying nameplate is waste of money.