Media-wise, the new Pontiac G8 is a hit. Obviously. The Aussie four door conforms to the pistonhead paradigm: a powerful, rear-wheel-drive sports sedan. According to the jobbing journos flown to a first-class California hotel to test the new machine on local roads, the G8 GT isn't aesthetically offensive, goes like stink and handles well. While hooning hacks are celebrating the return of the [imported] American muscle car, they seem to have forgotten the fact that the muscle car is dead. As is Pontiac. And, by extension, GM.
The Dodge Charger is the obvious, indeed inescapable, template for the Pontiac G8's prospects. While enthusiasts may balk at the comparison– citing important [to them] differences in power, handling, interior fitment, etc.– the G8 and the Charger live in the exact same niche. They sell at the same price, offer the same driven wheels configuration and boast the same aggressive style. Last year, the Charger sold a not-inconsiderable 119,289 units.
The billion dollar question: can the G8 make those numbers, or better? Although the initial plan is to import limited numbers (20kish) of G8s, given the cost of production, there's only one way this car will ever make money for GM: if it sells in sufficient volumes to justify larger, and more local, production. At least that WAS the plan…
The Pontiac G8 may find some measure of sales success simply by stealing buyers from the Charger and its other logical competitor, the Chrysler 300. But even if the G8 scams 20 percent of these two ‘merican-style machines' customers, the Pontiac can't thrive on defectors alone. To make its nut, G8 buyers have to come from… somewhere else.
The chances that loyal/satisfied owners of transplant sedans will opt for the new Pontiac are small. While the new G8 may embody the erstwhile carmaker's old "excitement division" selling point, Pontiac destroyed that brand equity decades ago in a torrent of poorly-built, badge-engineered cars and minivans. In spite of (because?) the flame-out success of the Solstice roadster, Pontiac has no cachet upon which the G8 can draw. The company itself has moved on to a new motto: "Pontiac is car." How great is that?
So what about SUV escapees? Perhaps the G8 will tempt mainstream truck buyers to return to the large American-style cars of their youth. For years, pundits have predicted that SUV refugees will eventually opt for comfy sedans (remember Ford's Year of the Car?). Unfortunately, lackluster large sedan sales lead us to conclude that most SUV escapees are "trading down" to slightly more fuel-efficient CUVs or "all the way" to four-cylinder sedans.
Truth be told, the most likely customers for the new Pontiac G8 are consumers considering another GM sedan. What's the bet people looking at the Chevrolet Impala and/or Buick Lucerne/Lacrosse and/or a lower-spec Cadillac CTS will opt for a G8? In other words, once again, cannibals loom large in GM's sales schemes.
Alternatively– and this is the best case scenario– the overall market for the G8-type of vehicle will expand. In a shrinking new car market beset by rising fuel prices, any hope that the audience for a relatively thirsty rear-wheel-drive sedan will suddenly enlarge is destined to remain unfulfilled. The fact that sales of the Dodge Charger and the fleet-bolstered Chrysler 300 are flat does not bode well for the Pontiac.
While the G8 may get off to an auspicious start (the thrill of the new), it's highly unlikely G8 sales will have "legs." The Pontiac G8's "killer app" is American muscle. But it should be remembered that the V8 variant accounts for just 24 percent of the Charger's total sales (24,630 vs. 90,659). So, while the G8 GT offers remarkable bang-for-the-buck, the "normal" V6 version will make or, more likely, break this car.
Yes, the G8 V6 is rear wheel-drive and significantly faster than the Charger V6. But the bread-and-butter model G8 is slower than both the V6 Accord and V6 Toyota Camry. The base Pontiac's sloth leaves the Australian-built sedan with no appreciable advantage for the average American sedan buyer.
In fact, when it comes to evaluating the "average" G8, the average U.S. car buyer couldn't care less about horsepower, driven wheels, handling or speed. They want brand rep, reliability, comfort, a competitive sticker price and maximum fuel efficiency– and not necessarily in that order.
Speaking to that point, The base Pontiac G8 gets 17/25mpg. The Honda Accord V6 gets 19/29; the six-pot Camry clocks-in at 19/28. And anyway, six-cylinder Accords and Camrys do NOT account for the majority of the models' sales. They are easily and completely outsold by variants with more fuel efficient four-cylinder engines; which the G8 doesn't offer.
Not to put too fine a point on it, the Pontiac G8 is the wrong car at the wrong time for GM. Whether or not there's any profit in importing a $30k car from halfway around the world, what GM really needs to survive is a single, highly competitive four-cylinder sedan. Instead of adding the G8 to their line-up, GM should have improved what they had.
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Great post Robert – you sum up my thoughts on the G8 perfectly. The GT may be great, but its going to be a pretty small niche the way gas prices are going. I fit the G8 market perfectly, but there is no way I can justify that gas mileage in an era with $3 dollar plus gas no matter how fast it may be. And, the V6 isn’t all that attractive (and not on my list) when compared to other sedans from Honda, Nissan, Toyota et al because of interior and feature shortcomings regardless of the wheels being driven. GM would have been better off trying to make the Aura into a legitimate competitor for the high end Accord, Camry and Altimas of the world than appealing to a bygone era with the G8. That and its been over a year since the car “debuted” at the 2007 Chicago Auto Show and still none to be found on the dealer lots. Once again, too many models/too many brands. A BMW 5-Series on the cheap the G8 may be, but most buy the 5-Series because of the propeller – something the arrowhead division has no chance in matching.
That big yank tank is just more of the same. Nothing special. High price, poor mileage, average performance. We’ve seen it all before and already have plenty of them.
How about a two door Ford Fusion with a 400 mile lithium pack that would blow the doors off this G8 and have it for around $14k?
There will soon be a range war(and price war, and performance war) with electric vehicles. Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Nissan all have vehicles in the works. Fleets of 30 in testing now. For sale in 2010. GM and Ford will be left behind.
Why can’t GM take the Aveo and make 3 models of it? A hybrid model that gets better city and highway mileage then the Prius, and potentially even beats it on price. A high performance turbo four that beats most cars in the 1/4 mile. A four cylinder diesel model that gets 1998 like VW Beetle fuel mileage(50mpg). What about even a gas model that beats all imports fuel mileage? Is it that hard? Why sell cars that do nothing and win at nothing? Who wants that? All Ford and GM need to do is revamp their entire line up. It’s not too late. The goal and the key is to beat the competition at something. Price, performance, fuel mileage. If they can’t; might as well just go out of business then. Frustrating as all get. A bunch of know nothing lackers. Too scared to act or move. That’s not the world leading Ford and GM that I remember.
A new V-8 powered full sized high performance sedan seems like a stupid idea in the era of $3-4/gallon gas, but I think that given the circumstances, GM went about this the right way. This car was already developed for the Australian market, so it could be produced at existing facilities and with little extra development costs involving Americanization. I also don’t think GM has any illusions regarding the sales numbers of this car. I seem to remember predictions in the 30-40K/year range. I think they will meet that with no problem. The big issue here is that this car has the opportunity to provide a badly needed image boost for GM among enthusiasts.
They need their top people to actually like small cars. How can BMW can sell an upscale premium small car (mini) but not GM with all their divisions?
GM’s aversion to small cars is truly amazing. The Aveo is another Chevette. A car engineered from a subsidiary for another market shipped to America and sorely lacking in competitiveness compared to the class leading Fit or even the Yaris.
GM needs an upscale premium (profitable) small car. Yet how can GM make money making an upscale small car when they have refused to even make small cars for so long.
GM is having a “Name the vehicle contest” for the G8 sport-truck?
Might as well call it the “Lead Balloon”, because that is how it will go over in the market in the era of $4 per gallon gas….
Dumb. Dumber. Dumbest….
Of all the car guys that I know, only one would even consider buying this car.
He’s a car guy that grew up on american V8’s – specifically Chevys. He’s owned camaros, impalas, and malibu wagons.
This very same guy has also owned Jags with transplanted chevy 383 stroker motors, and Ferraris.
I think he would consider a G8, but his attention (read: wallet) is focused on a BMW 550i – which he loves.
Here is GMs problem with this car. GM can’t seem to make V8 muscle affordable. The guys that can afford this type of vehicle, can usually afford something more refined, with a better brand reputation.
The “kids” can’t afford this car. That’s why you see an entire generation of kids modifying hondas and subarus. They can afford them, and they can afford to modify them. How is GM going to win their hearts and minds?
Answer: They aren’t going to.
Gas was practically free from 1986 until 2000, so naturally GM comes out with the Z06 and G8 in 2008. Brilliant.
This shouldn’t be a deathwatch post. The G8 is not part of the problem. There is a market for it, the Charger proves that, but it is smaller than it was. There is little competition in this niche. Camry and Accord aren’t direct competitors. This is a bona fide performance sedan at sub-entry-luxury prices.
The 4-cylinder sedan they desperately need is a more competitive G6. The G6 is the deathwatch article you’re looking for. Remember when Dan Neil of the LA Times wrote a scathing review of the “My other car is an Enterprise Rent-a-car” and GM pulled all its ads from the LA Times for a short time? You don’t get that upset if you don’t know that he’s right.
The G8 is the flagship. It might not sell in the volumes that it would have ten years ago but there are plenty of people who can’t afford a 5-series who will get one.
Also, why does Detroit keep changing their taglines? What was wrong with “We build excitement”? That’s a great tag. Pick it, stick with it for 20 years, and spend the time saved working on product.
Isn’t it ironic that the new ‘09 Subaru Forester XT manages nearly the same 0-60 time as the G8? It does so for one simple reason – AWD, which gets all the power to the ground rather than just smoking the rear tires.
Then again, one can’t do high power drifting in a Forester like they could in the G8.
“V6-engined Pontiac G8 gets 17/25mpg. The Honda Accord V6 gets 19/29; the Camry clocks-in at 19/28.”
Sure you got the 2007/2008 EPA standards ironed out? I ask becaue the 2007 and 2008 V6 Accord automatics are 20/29 and 19/29 but the manual drops from 21/30 for 2007 down to 17/25 for 2008 according to autos.yahoo.com. I suspect the 2008 automatics haven’t been re-tested but the 2008 manual transmissions have. Or, the 2008 Honda automatics have been re-optimized for the 2008 tests, which would probably make them less exciting to drive. Anyway, why would anyone want an automatic? Just considering the manual transmission cars, the fuel efficiency of the Accord and G8 bench the same.
I disagree with the comparisons being made to the Accord and Camry, in that the G8 is intended to be a low-volume niche vehicle. If the goal was to sell 100,000 G8’s per year, that benchmark would be valid, but the factory can’t build more than 30,000 per year and the goal is to import fewer than that.
That being said, the G8 will still miss the mark. As is the Solstice, this car is meant to serve as a gateway/halo car for the Pontiac brand, using excitement generated by the G8 to pull in traffic that will purchase a G6, G5, Torrent or Vibe.
I don’t see this happening. The other less-than-mundane G-cars share no obvious kinship or connection to the G8, so the spillover benefit will be minimal. The diehard GM fans who are drawn to the idea of a hot Pontiac will be gained from the cannibal pool, so the conquest buyers will be few and far between, and are unlikely to be drawn to the rest of the lineup.
And of course, it’s the wrong car at the wrong time, given fuel prices and the recession. I can see them selling 20,000 units, within projections, but that is not going to make this a profitable venture.
Plus, the exchange rate is only going to hurt. Two years ago, one US dollar was equal to about AU$1.35-1.40; as of Friday, that rate was just under $1.07. I’d be curious to know whether this car even achieve breakeven with the US dollar at that level.
The G8 appears to be a really good sports sedan except for one HUGE flaw….It’s badge. Unless GM gets serious about brand management, they will have little success in selling premium products. How many people are willing to drop 30-35K on a car that the general public will just assume is another shit box rental queen Pontiac. This car would make a great Acura or Mazda.
The comparison is valid because the average consumer is going to look at the two products and decide they get a lot more car for the money with the Accord/Camry vs. a V6 G8. Look at it this way – the V6 versions of the Accord and Camry are probably niches within the overall sales of each model – but profitable because of the overall economy of scale provided by the range. Likewise, Nissan is getting 60K to 70K “bonus” sales out of the Maxima sharing a platform with the Altima, Murano and Quest. A similar comparison can be made with the Accord/TSX/TL. Its this factor that will relegate the entire G8 to niche status.
How many of those 120K Charger sales are to fleets anyway?
The comparison is valid because the average consumer is going to look at the two products and decide they get a lot more car for the money with the Accord/Camry vs. a V6 G8.
The target market isn’t the Accord/ Camry/ Altima midsize sedan segment, but the 3-series/G35/TL/ C-class/A4/Lexus IS near-luxury sedan class. The price point and projected sales volumes are in line with this group, and it needs to attract this crowd if the car is to succeed.
Not that this is going to happen. The rest of the lineup provides negative cachet value to ensure that this doesn’t happen. If they want to sell the G8, they need to start by building a better G6.
Sunnyvale -
The author has the 08 EPA figures for the Accord dead-on.
The manual Accord, available only in the coupe, gets an EPA rating of 17/25.
The automatic Accord gets an EPA rating of 19/29.
The reason for this is that the automatic version gets Honda’s variable cylinder management technology, while the manual version does not. The trade-off is that the manual version has a much more robust mid-range, while the automatic loses alot of mid-range to incorporate the cylinder de-activation technology.
Hope that answers your question.
Joe
Or maybe it’s because the Forester weighs about 700 pounds less than the G8.
Pch101, your earlier post got me to thinking. The move here is going to be for Aussies to start importing G8’s back to the homeland. The base price for the G8 GT (V8, 6-speed auto) is $29,995, the comparable Holden (Commodore SS with 6-speed auto option) is $47,290 (!). I bet a lot of guys would learn to drive on the left side of the car for $17,000….
The demand may not be here now, but if Pontiac can keep this car relevant until the recession ends, this could be a valuable product for them in the future. I think what kills this car more than anything else is the exchange rate. I still don’t understand why they don’t build them where they build the Camaro, which they’ve already said is going to be more expensive than they intended because it’s the only Zeta model built in North America.
“GM should have improved what they had.”
…the Grand Prix?
In terms of replacing their large car in the lineup, this was a way better choice. ABC News in Australia is talking about how great this is because it’s not only saving Australian jobs in a time when a Mitsu plant is closing down here and Ford’s factory is supposedly on the ropes, but it’s actually going to create a few new jobs at the plant to handle the extra volume.
GM saves a factory, saves R&D money, and all in the process offers a vastly superior successor to the previous model. Its fuel economy isn’t quite in the same territory as the Accord and the Camry, but it’s not too far off and they’re in different segments anyways (yes, technically the Accord is a large car but it’s traditionally in the midsize segment).
With all this in mind, will it sell well? Probably not in droves, but enough to keep the “product-led turnaround” hype machine rolling, which is probably more important to GM anyways. They can’t be losing too much money by doing this. Besides, this car doesn’t have much of a future anyways; CAFE will soon take out some (possibly all) of the V8 trims.
Props for the “Down Under” lyrics too…that’s pretty much been my theme song since I started this study abroad thing :P
Nice write up, Robert.
The Solstace got people into the showroom, and hell, they even bought the things for awhile. At its hottest, and I’ll never understand this, every other time it rained, on the on-ramps/offramps, I’d see one of these or the Sky spun off on the shoulder… and apparently, 1 inch of mud causes it to get instantly stuck. I wish I was exaggerating. It was the most peculiar thing.
I’m just wondering how many Solstace customers, who in all likelihood should have stayed true to Pontiac or GM, will totally ignore this thing, even if they like it? Right formula, wrong execution.
With logic and vehicles like this G8 it’s NO wonder the 2.8 are in the MESS of trouble they’re in. With gas the price it is and likey to stay high (and most likely go up more) the 2.8 need to be concentrating on small fuel efficent 4 and 6 cylinder vehicles (and hybrids) that people can ACTUALLY afford to fill with gas and drive daily and not have to take out a second mortage on the house just to keep it full of gas. The G8 is a bad idea and a bad decision on GM’s part. GM may have the non-Chevy Chevy Aveo as a high milage sub-compact to compete with the Fit, Versa and Yaris but FoMoCo and Chrysler each are SOL (shit outta luck) in the segment here. And these are the kind and type of vehicles they need to help save gas and money and they can’t offer anything to the customer in that segment. As i said at the start of this post, It’s no wonder the 2.8 are in the mess they are in.
Hey Robert, there is a flaw in your premise for this article.
Holden cannot build 119,289 G8s per year for the US. This is not a car that’s about sales numbers.
Holden is a tiny operation with one plant. Last I heard the most they can produce is somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 units per year split between whatever body styles GM decides they want to sell in the US. The total production of 2008 G8s was 18,000 cars. Production of the 2009s has started already and is completely ramped up so more will be arriving this year. Holden will produce the car until 2012.
The intent behind the G8 was never to dominate the RWD car market by units moved. It was always about creating buzz, passion and press for the Pontiac brand as well as returning some of it’s lost glory. It’s also about selling most of what Holden can supply in the US.
So far it looks like GM has succeeded on all fronts with the G8.
I haven’t seen a Pontiac recieve this much interest by consumers and media in a long time. Even some writers on this site have admitted they like this car and it is a thoroughly likable car. Every news piece I see about this car generates a huge amount of response. That’s exactly what GM wants. This car is advertising itself all over for free. I haven’t even been able to test drive one here in Phoenix yet because they are selling within hours of arriving at the dealerships.
If you’re going to write about how a $32,000 half-price BMW will fail I think you should write another one about a certain $41,000 Hyundai’s prospects in the US next.
Will this new GM Car be right hand drive too? Down under they drive on the same side of the Road as does the United Kingdom!
TriShield :
The intent behind the G8 was never to dominate the RWD car market by units moved. It was always about creating buzz, passion and press for the Pontiac brand as well as returning some of it’s lost glory.
The G8 was NEVER designed as a halo car. GM doesn't have the time/money nor the long-term branding focus to indulge in a halo car for Pontiac. As pch101 points out, the “lesser” Pontiacs are the more important products in the brand's lineup.
This is not a car that’s about sales numbers.
Nor is about profit, apparently.
GM original, publicly declared plan: import the G8 from Down Under just to get G8 sales juiced– so they could then start production in North America. And then make money. [NB: I’ve amended the text to indicate GM's need to make the vehicle in quantity.]
But once again, GM [correctly] expects the media to forget the bottom line and dangles a new, bright shiny object as proof they know what they're doing. But even when GM succeeds (e.g. Cadillac CTS, new Chevrolet Malibu), they neglect the bigger [branding] picture (e.g. Cadillac’s large sedans, the Chevy Aveo). Pontiac is a dead brand walking, and the G8 will not change that.
RF: “Nor is about profit, apparently.”
The US dollar has fallen over 30% against the Australian dollar in the last 24 months. If there ever was any profit (doubtful) in importing the G8, it’s now certainly a big loss on each unit. It’s the Astra all over again. GM should hope the G8 is a sales bomb.
Firstly, I hate GM products for all the reasons that we write about on this website.
But I have to say that (hood intakes aside) I actually like the look of this car. This is the most well proportioned GM product since the modern Corvettes came out. I can’t speak for quality or durability, as only time will tell that one. And rear wheel drive, while (very) late, is the correct way to go with this type of car.
They should take this design and use it for Caddy. Redesign the Caddy logo (which is outdated and ugly on a modern car) and bam! you have sometime that you can try to compete with.
gsp
They should take this design and use it for Caddy. Redesign the Caddy logo (which is outdated and ugly on a modern car) and bam! you have sometime that you can try to compete with.
Sure, another badge-engineered GM product. Count on it.
A Commodore SV6 starts at $40k in Australia. The Australian dollar is almost at parity to the US dollar. The G8 V6 starts at, what $28K? What a deal/loss, depending on which side of the transaction you’re on.
Right car, wrong time. They should have been bringing these Aussie Holdens over years ago. Now they are going to cost GM more because they have to pay the Aussie factories in Aussie dollars. Like Canada, making cars in AU is going to be a lot more expensive for GM.
Also, rapidly rising fuel prices are going to scare a lot of people away from muscle cars for a while.
To their credit, GM already had this car. They just had on the other side of the planet. I agree that is is a nitch product. But it is one that should compete well within in its ever-shrinking nitch.
When it comes to marketing, I think that GM should look at AMG and Mercedes-Benz. There is no reason why GM can’t make an in-house “Aussie Muscle” performance line within Pontiac (basically, out Pontiacing Pontiac). They should make it very clear that these, and the new Utes, are not for everyone. They should be distinct and instantly recognizable. They need to put some distinctly Australian icon on it. Perhaps the Boxing Kangaroo?
No one wants to spend top dollar for just another Pontiac. But make is special, then it might convince some buyers to come over.
I was thinking about this a little more. Rather than look at how AMG is to Mercedes. Perhaps a better example is how FPV is tor Ford in Australia. Ford sells their AU muscles cars under the Ford Performance Vehicle sub-line. You don’t see much of the blue oval or “Ford” on the FPV site.
I wonder if there is a police package in the works. This has at least got to be better than the Panther and not understeer like the 300C, right?
Even in recessions, highway patrol is a revenue generating department and doesn’t have its budget cut.
This looks like another one of Lutz’ fantasies.
Very few people are in the market for a car like this, and those who are probably are not going to be hanging around their Pontiac-Buick-GMC-Suzuki dealer lot waiting for it.
I agree completely that this is the wrong car at the wrong time being marketed by the wrong brand.
Pontiac hasn’t had a coherent brand image in decades, and the G8 isn’t going to fix that essential problem.
And by the way, why the heck isn’t it called a Bonneville? The G-spot naming has coincided with a precipitous drop in Pontiac sales, yet they keep doing more of the same.
I have to disagree a bit as the G8 will gain a few converts from other manufacters. One main difference is the G8 will be offered with manual. Some converts will come from places you least suspect, WRX and RX8 communities.
The G8 will only be offered in a manual with the LS3 packing GXP, which will cost more, get worse gas mileage and be even more of a niche vehicle than the V6 or GT versions.
I attended the 2000 Woodward Dream Cruise at the Phoenix Center in downtown Pontiac MI. Present were some dudes from the Australian GTO Club, with brochures of the 2000 Holden Commodore: base engine 3.8 V6, mid-range 3.8 Supercharged, top-line LS1 V8; Coupes, 4-Door Sedans, 5-Door Sedans, Wagons, and something called a Ute (?!). “Amazing!!! Why don’t WE have THESE?!”
“Cuz they weren’t DEVELOPED here”, came the “insider’s” reply…
2002…Lutz…
2004…GTO…
2000 and freakin’ EIGHT…THAT must be why they call it the G8…
As to marketing, and Pontiac, ’bout damn time, or this Division is in danger of being Olds’d. Halo models? Of course, and the GXP will be that, if Heinricy and the boys are left alone… Make it “NOT for everyone”? EXACTLY…and THAT’S what will drive off-brand folks to the door…
As to ass-kickin’ GM and Cherry/Lutz, there has been far too much from the Head Office folks (of ALL the Detroit Three) walkin’ ’round with BOTH hands coverin’ their butts, afraid to say/do ANYTHING for far too long… The Procter and Gamble Gang, God bless ‘em, are long gone, as are Roger’s Rogues, and at least these two are TRYING. With constrained budgets for REAL new development, the best for the moment seems to be “the best EXISTING” from wherever they might be/come. Give ‘em SOME credit… It wasn’t all that long ago (see paragraph one) when you would have been burned at the stake for such “travesties” as Astras and G8s, considered great products and/or Market leaders in their “native” countries.
Seems to me that all the parochial attitudes aren’t necessarily within the former Detroit Three’s “decision dens”. A few seem to be present, closely…
Robert – I see your amendment re: the 20Kish sales and need for local production to create sufficient volume for profitability. And you elude to that having been the plan. You can envision Maximum Bob dreaming about Zeta Camaros, Impalas, G8s, Park Avenues and Cadillac some-letterTS streaming out of the GM plant in Canada blissfully ignoring the writing on the wall re: higher gas prices and more stringent fuel economy standards that would gut the market and/or profit from such products. Now the latest is that the Zeta based Impala is off (again), the G8 may be a one-generation orphan and only the higher margin Chinese based Buick and a Cadillac version will survive. Look no further than the G8 variants to see the commitment, or lack there of, to the platform in the only mildly revised GXP (compared to the HSV version)or the Pontiac (and not GMC) badged Ute. GM clearly didn’t want to spend more than they had to on these variants. And, where is the cool sport wagon? All of this begs the question re: the G8; If importing it from AU isn’t profitable and local production isn’t likely, meaning there won’t ever be significant volume, then why did they bother at all?
I can add the G8 to the Jaguar S-Type 4.2, Audi A8 and Lincoln Aviator in my fantasy stable of “excellent cars without excellent sales.”
FYI – a manual transmission *should* be available on all G8 models in short time. For launch, they shipped the volume configurations, so automatics only. But only for now.
From those who have driven it, it sounds like it’s a good car at a good price. That’s got to count for something. I will be sure to at least consider it when time comes to get another car, which is something I can’t say about anything else Pontiac builds. GM’s small block is truly one of the greatest engines out there for large, rear drive cars.
If they’re going to produce them locally, adding about 5-10” to the wheelbase/rear seat might be a good idea, to further set them apart from ever larger Accords/Camrys, and, in nicely optioned trim, provide a more frugal alternative to the S’s / 7’s / LS’s of the world. A large wagon built on this longer wheelbase would essentially be devoid of any direct competition. Not to mention a Bentley Azure sized convertible. As a closet CL addict, I would also like to see a hard top coupe, but….
I guess it all depends on how expensive it is to do different variations. Assuming it’s true that Pontiac finally has a globally competitive platform, and with both the dollar in the pits and unions malleable, I hope they can at least turn this one into a solid success.
Lichronamo:
All of this begs the question re: the G8; If importing it from AU isn’t profitable and local production isn’t likely, meaning there won’t ever be significant volume, then why did they bother at all?
Answer: More twisted GM logic or the lack there of. Just look back to the Non-Pontiac Pontiac GTO (another Holden). Another low production volumn car that didn’t sell and it was axed. I truly believe that GM is trying to save a division that shouldn’t be saved. This car WON’T take any customers from Toyota, Honda, Mazda or Nissan (or any transplant for that matter). Most G8 customers will most likely come from another GM division or from FoMoCO and Chrysler (if they come from Chrysler, talk about trading for better !!!!!). Thinking this car will take customers form the transplants is a pipe dream on GM’s part. Just look at the new Malibu for a big dream to take customers from ToMoCo and Honda. Hasn’t happened in any big amount (and most likely won’t). And this G8 won’t do it either. I just wonder how long this car will last till GM kills it for lack of sales??? Just stick a fork in Pontiac GM…… It’s done !!!!!!!!!!
i’m sorry. i really pains me to admit this because gm put food on our family’s table and an excellent education within my grasp. my father worked for gm all of his life – as did many, many others in my old hometown – and one of my brother’s has 30 years there as well.
but i truly believe that the corporation’s senior management has had its head up its ass for so long that they simply no longer understand the complexities of the contemporary car business. nor the current realities confronting us.
Robert,
Thanks for your editorial. I agree with a lot of what you posit, but there are a few gaps in your logic that have left me puzzled.
For example, why do you compare G8 with Accord & Camry? Malibu & Aura are intended to compete with the Japanese mid-size sedans, not G8. In fact, isn’t Malibu the “highly competitive 4-cyl sedan” you request of GM in your last paragraph?
G8 should NOT be marketed as a Japanese mid-sized sedan competitor. Positioning G8 as another Accord/Camry contender would be like GM’s philosophy of the 80s and 90s, which equipped each division with essentially the same vehicle and thus created competition among each division. The result was watered-down brand values which ultimately damaged any semblance of sportiness for Pontiac.
Now that GM is attempting to rectify Pontiac by offering a vehicle embodying Pontiac’s image of sportiness, why do you suggest that “instead of adding the G8 to their line-up, GM should have improved what they had”? Do you mean the Bonneville/Grand Prix? Do you really think an improved version of these vehicles is a better strategy than starting fresh with G8?
GM needs to continue to differentiate Pontiac from the rest of their divisions. I hope G8 is a harbinger of a refocused range. The next generation G6 must be a true enthusiast’s machine if GM wants to show they are serious about regaining any shred of Pontiac’s damaged reputation.
That said, I definitely agree with you that “Pontiac G8 is the wrong car at the wrong time for GM.” As many other posters have already indicated, GM has no excuse for not taking full advantage of selling Holden in North America many moons ago.
I love the comment about the muscle car being dead. That has got to be the funniest thing I’ve read this month. Thanks for the humor.
So the party line is in – the great helmsman in the shape of Rob F.has spoken and the G8 has to slink out of the garden of eden.
Some on this site mutter about the brand (which I still suggest is not as important as the product) the first half way decent brand fitting Pontiac for years and its pooh poohed,
I would suggest that there is another group that does Ok (still) for Ford and that is the Mustang.
If it can take 10k mustang owners and 15k Charger owners plus 7k for others; canniballed gm sales, truck defectors, rwd euro wannabes and fleet sales to police depts etc and they’re within sniffing distance of 30k.
Drop the G6 and G5 & spend that money on the Aura & Cobalt lord knows they need it
to be honest I suggest most people buy cars that are over 3 litres or are turbocharged are not that worried about the price of gas….(yet) apart from just being able to bitch about it.
A conversation between maximum bob and Aussie holden subsidiary CEO.
Aussie- A
Bob- B
A. Hi, this is holden CEo, from Australia.
B. See ou what?
A. never mind. Mister Lutz we are in works of a new premium Wallabee -size sedan. And we need a platform from our mothership. meaning you.
B. Where the hell we are going to get a platform?…hmm, wait, we own opel…so I guess I could call them and ask an Omega old platform if they haven`t dumped it yet. Wait.. You could call yourself, i will connect you..wait..my receptionist will connect you.
A. ok, we could then freshen that opel up, and stack on a new tin upon it.
B. Don`t forget that i gave you that phone number MR. Foster`s or ..whatever. So you owe me one. So when you get that sedan done call me, So we can ship that kangaroo- babe through e-bay right to the shores of Michigan ocean. And don`t piss me off with your phone calls. We are kinda busy here. Ain`t easy to manage to stamp a pontiac triangle into a holden round logotype niche.
Holden spent something like a Billion dollars developing the VE/WM platform underpinning the Commodore, Lumina, G8, Park Avenue, some kind of Daewoo and now the Camaro – its not an Opel.
TriShield :
March 16th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Hey Robert, there is a flaw in your premise for this article.
Holden cannot build 119,289 G8s per year for the US. This is not a car that’s about sales numbers.
Holden is a tiny operation with one plant. Last I heard the most they can produce is somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 units per year split between whatever body styles GM decides they want to sell in the US. The total production of 2008 G8s was 18,000 cars. Production of the 2009s has started already and is completely ramped up so more will be arriving this year. Holden will produce the car until 2012.
The intent behind the G8 was never to dominate the RWD car market by units moved. It was always about creating buzz, passion and press for the Pontiac brand as well as returning some of it’s lost glory. It’s also about selling most of what Holden can supply in the US.
So far it looks like GM has succeeded on all fronts with the G8.
I haven’t seen a Pontiac recieve this much interest by consumers and media in a long time. Even some writers on this site have admitted they like this car and it is a thoroughly likable car. Every news piece I see about this car generates a huge amount of response. That’s exactly what GM wants. This car is advertising itself all over for free. I haven’t even been able to test drive one here in Phoenix yet because they are selling within hours of arriving at the dealerships.
If you’re going to write about how a $32,000 half-price BMW will fail I think you should write another one about a certain $41,000 Hyundai’s prospects in the US next.
There are 18,000 G8s in the US? Why haven’t I seen one?
I’ve seen two Continental Flying Spurs in the past week, for Christ’s sake.
The Zeta will underpin the G8, G8 sport truck, Camaro and probably 1-2 other models so they don’t need to sell 100k units.. I think Pontiac will enjoy larger sales than they have slated. When you are looking at only 2-3 MPG difference between a V-6 and V-8 many people (myself included) opt for the V-8.
The G6 needs to be switched to RWD to better focus the brand as well. Pontiac should be fun cars of all sizes, coupes, sedans, and convertibles.
There are a number of people who might have bought a Charger if the interior wasn’t Playschool plastic and there wasn’t a slushbox changing your gears. If you want a large V-8 car with RWD, well appointed and a manual what are your options? BMW 550 at 60k large and um, that’s it. The GXP will be BMW 550 at almost half the cost (betting 36-37k). It will trade the Bimmer’s cache and some interior quality for power, 400 + horses worth. Enthusiasts also always like having a Corvette engine, it’s probably why Pontiac was able to sell any suppository shaped GTO’s.
Here is a post from a Subaru WRX website on the G8. There isn’t much farther from and AWD rally machine than big RWD American/Aussie muscle but it has 300 plus replies…
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357375
Steve_S:
If you want a large V-8 car with RWD, well appointed and a manual what are your options?
I remain to be convinced that the market is clamoring for this recipe. A number of enthusiasts, sure. [Note: the percentage of U.S. motorists who can drive a stick shift automobile is in the single digits.] Like many if not most of you, I'm sure I'd love to cane this car (in V8 form). But that's not the point of this editorial.
Again, GM is not a niche manufacturer and Pontiac isn't an up or even mid-market brand. Bottom line: the G8 can't make money for GM as an Australian import. Equally important, GM doesn't have the time to engage in halo cars. Unless the company can build popular, profitable, mainstream machines, the North American market will drag General Motors into C11.
I see no evidence of a true product-led turnaround at GM, although I see plenty of evidence of resources wasted on cars that can't possibly save them from that fate (e.g. the entire Saturn brand).
it’s probably why Pontiac was able to sell any suppository shaped GTO’s.
That’s the point: Pontiac wasn’t able to do any such thing. The GTO was a flop — Pontiac couldn’t hit the original 18,000 units projected, and cut production back by a third due to the tepid demand, before killing the car entirely. There was initial hype when it first hit the showrooms, but that fell off quickly.
For the G8 to succeed, it needs to avoid following in the footsteps of the GTO if it is to avoid falling short of selling 20,000 units. Personally, I think that it has a decent chance of hitting that figure, as the sedan should be more practical than was the GTO coupe, but the last thing Pontiac should aspire to do is to repeat GTO history.
This car would have worked better as a Chevrolet (Bel Air? Caprice?). Chevrolet at least has some leaders in their respective segments – Corvette, Silverado, Suburban/Tahoe – along with a new sedan – the Malibu – that is a worthy contender.
Some of the showroom traffic this car generates could then be steered toward one of those vehicles, which are at least viable choices in today’s market.
Pontiac is a dead brand walking, and it will drag this (worthy) car down with it.
Oh I agree that what GM needs is bread and butter mainstream products that are cheaper and better than the competition. However I do think the G8 fits into what Pontiac is supposed to be about. Ideally it should have been out 5 years ago. The GTO should have also been much better looking and it would have sold more. Pontiac is never going to be a volume brand nor should they be. They should be the Go Fast brand of GM where all the toys are. Of course it seems Chevy is more geared for this with the Corvette and upcoming Camaro. These really should be in Pontiac’s line-up. The problem is they both have a long history with Chevy, especially strong with the Corvette that you can’t move them.
Ideally Pontiac, GMC and Buick should go the way of Oldsmobile but that costs too much money so you have to work with what you have and hope by making some good cars of any type it will be enough to not be in the red.
Is the G8 the type of car that GM needs? No but once you spread around the Zeta platform costs it won’t be a big deal. It will get the company some good press and reviews. It will make some enthusiast happy. Or dads who can’t get a coupe/performance/sports car but want a little of the fun anyway. Some tail out shenanigans and tire smoke keep you sane when your life is filled with diapers and sippy cups.