dastanley….5 points….4 1/2 totally wrong ones.(the only correct half-a-point you made was the following) Congradulations.

3)”Waggoneer and company don’t have to rely on bread and butter GM products to make it to work. If they don’t have limousine and driver service, they are provided (free of charge) a brand new company car as a rolling GM advertisement. These top of the line cars are replaced annually to keep up with the latest and greatest models. Hell, they don’t even lose the new car smell before they are switched. Not to mention the fact that they are washed, waxed, and maintained to mint condition on company premises. Because Waggoneer and company never have car trouble and don’t have to rely on a 15 year old Chevy Cavalier for their livelyhood,…..”

80% of what I read here is bunk…

Let’s see, the Highlander is Toyota’s midsized SUV. Just like the RAV4. Just like the 4Runner, and I guess the FJ Cruiser, which are a little tougher. And also the RX350, which has leather, and the GX470 which has leather too. And the LandCruiser, and the LX470, again with the leather. But you can get a Highlander with leather too, it just costs more.

Yes, I know, they are all a just a little bit different. But not that much, really.

“3) Waggoneer and company don’t have to rely on bread and butter GM products to make it to work. If they don’t have limousine and driver service, they are provided (free of charge) a brand new company car as a rolling GM advertisement. These top of the line cars are replaced annually to keep up with the latest and greatest models. Hell, they don’t even lose the new car smell before they are switched. Not to mention the fact that they are washed, waxed, and maintained to mint condition on company premises. Because Waggoneer and company never have car trouble and don’t have to rely on a 15 year old Chevy Cavalier for their livelyhood, they are convinced that the quality gap between GM and Japanese cars is merely a “perception” problem. Those stupid customers.”

Very strong point.

1) No consequences for poor upper mgt. performance. Waggoneer, Lutz, and the other stooges in the puzzle palace have their golden parachutes, penthouse offices, stock options, etc. regardless of if they make money or not. If they f— up, who cares?

2) Waggoneer and his peons (except for Lutz) have only known GM culture since day one. Because that is their only frame of reference, they are truly unaware that Toyota, Honda, etc. do a better job in running a car company.

3) Waggoneer and company don’t have to rely on bread and butter GM products to make it to work. If they don’t have limousine and driver service, they are provided (free of charge) a brand new company car as a rolling GM advertisement. These top of the line cars are replaced annually to keep up with the latest and greatest models. Hell, they don’t even lose the new car smell before they are switched. Not to mention the fact that they are washed, waxed, and maintained to mint condition on company premises. Because Waggoneer and company never have car trouble and don’t have to rely on a 15 year old Chevy Cavalier for their livelyhood, they are convinced that the quality gap between GM and Japanese cars is merely a “perception” problem. Those stupid customers.

4) Waggoneer and company are not evaluated on long term quality and long term customer satisfaction. They are evaluated by the Board of Bystanders and shareholders on quarterly and annual performance. Hence the emphasis on the next new thing (whatever that is THIS month, whether in the USA or China) just to jack up the stock prices short term rather than on building a solid long term vehicle for sustained customer loyalty.

5) Waggoneer and company do not read TTAC. It is beneath their arrogance and dignity to take constructive criticism and apply it to fixing GM. By changing GM, they would be admitting fault – God forbid!

There are no divisions anymore. GM completely eliminated the division structure many years ago. The only place the individual brands exist is in advertising campaigns and dealer signage. Behind the curtain there is just one big dysfunctional family.

GM only needs three brands in North America, Chevrolet, Cadillac and Hummer. Everything else is noise, dilution and distraction.

As others have said, the new Camaro is at best a short-term hit, and it isn’t going to save GM’s financial bacon. Remember all the excitement about the Sky and Solstice? How many dollars do you think they are sending to the bottom line, and why the **** did Saturn get a version?
BTW, Isuzu just announced that January 1, 2009 is the end of their new vehicle marketing in North America.

Who said anything about taking GMC away from anyone? I’m saying GM needs to consolidate sales channels. Each division needs to do one thing. Few if any divisions will be able to have stand alone dealers.

As it stands, the Chevy dealer and the GMC dealer compete with each other anyway. They’d still compete if they both sold GMC, but at least Chevy and GMC could develop separate brand identities.

“You’re assuming that customers will happily go down to the GMC dealer to buy a truck instead of getting one from the Chevy dealer. That’s an awful big assumption when you’re talking about the lifeblood of the company.”

See above.

“It seems far more logical to me to shut down GMC and try to move all those sales over to Chevy, since they sell several times as many trucks as GMC, but even that is probably a lot trickier than it sounds.”

Chevy sells more trucks because there are more Chevy dealers. They’re the same trucks. If you have Chevy doing the common man’s car, and the common man’s truck, then who makes the upmarket truck? Meanwhile, Chevy is also selling the ‘Vette, which is anything but common, and the Impala which is full sized and near luxury if you get a nice one, so what is Chevy’s brand identity?

Here’s my armchair quarterback calls-

Caddy: Makes luxury wafters. Wafters only. No carvers. Forget the V series cars, they are absolutely the wrong immage for Caddy.

Saab: Badly needs a reason for it’s meger existance. Saab should make Luxury Carvers. No wafters. Saab and Caddy can be sold from the same store.

If you want to waft down the boulevard, you get a Caddy. If you want to zoom through twisties in luxury, you buy a Saab.

Hummer: A stupid vehicle that probably won’t exist in 10 years. But for now, it’s a pricey and unique offering. It can also be sold at Caddy stores, because those are the customers that can afford one.

GMC: Trucks. Only trucks. Any size truck. Basic work trucks and fancy gentleman’s trucks. Trucks. Trucks. GMC is the division that does trucks. They can also do truck based SUVs. The brand identity here is – Trucks.

Chevy: Basic transportation. Subcompact, compact, and intermediate sized cars. 2 door, 4 door, and wagons, CUVs.

Pontiac: Sporty cars. Not clones of Chevy’s models. If you want to zoom through the twisties and beat others off the line, but you can’t afford (or don’t want) luxury, you buy a Pontiac. No way can this division stand alone.

Buick: Full sized cars, Minivans, non-truck based SUVs. As someone mentioned above, a loaded Impala is the functional equivalent of a Buick. Everything that is full sized is near luxury today. Hell, everything of any size is near luxury today. Divisions can’t be differentiated on equipment because everyone wants a nice ride.
Buick concentrates on the big cars.

Saturn: has no reason to exist.

Corvette: So unique it becomes a Marque, rahter than a model. Logically it should be a Pontiac, but it’s too late for that. But it can be sold right beside Pontiac’s sporty offerings.

Caddy/Saab/Hummer is a sales channel.

Corvette, GMC, Buick, Pontiac, Chevy is a sales channel. Dealers can sell any mix/match/combo of these they want.

It’s not a perfect scheme, but at least every division has a clear purpose and isn’t replicating the efforts of other divisions. This is necessary if there are to be coherent brand identities.

A good alternative model, that several people have mentioned, is jettison everything but Caddy and Chevy. Chevy can sell from 10K to about 30K or even 35K. Caddy takes it from there.

“Dynamic88-Chevy dealers like to sell trucks. Chevy dealers sell a lot of trucks. Most Chevy dealers sell very few cars and lots of pickups and SUVs. …”

So sell Chevy cars and GMC trucks.

You’re assuming that customers will happily go down to the GMC dealer to buy a truck instead of getting one from the Chevy dealer. That’s an awful big assumption when you’re talking about the lifeblood of the company.

It seems far more logical to me to shut down GMC and try to move all those sales over to Chevy, since they sell several times as many trucks as GMC, but even that is probably a lot trickier than it sounds.

Here’s a really crazy idea: why not merge GMC/Pontiac/Buick into not only a single sales channel, but a single brand? You could call it simply GM and position it between Chevy and Cadillac. Of course, you’d have to restyle all the vehicles to make them look like a coherent brand, and you’d have to cut some overlap, but it makes more sense in my mind than simply killing off all three and hoping the sales end up going to one of the other divisions.

Thomas Minzenmay-Another problem with selling brands is the whole cannibalism thing in the first place. That is, the designs for Buicks and Pontiacs and Saturns are based on Chevys and vice versa. The nameplates and dealer network alone are basically worthless without the car designs, which GM won’t sell. Plus, many different brands are made on the same assembly line. You simply can’t break them apart like this. Even Saturn, which used to be seperate from the rest of GM, is now completely tied to the parent corporation.

The Camaro seems nice, but I don’t see it doing much for GM. It will likely steal Mustang buyers and a few others, but not much else. The health of the company is beyond being saved by a one hit wonder. A complete restructuring at this juncture would be the best idea. Either GM needs to badge engineer more or less. By more, I mean they need to pretty much hang GMC badges on Chevy trucks and then half the production. Dump the Chevy SS models onto Pontiac. By doing trim differences only, like Chrysler did with the Neon, they will at least save a little dough on the way to a brand restructure. Now, fighting with the dealer netwrok on what goes and what stays is going to be a mess.

Also, it was mentioned to sell a brand. Could it be done? Could Buick become a chinese company?

Lastly, I am glad mikey likes the new Camaro. I hope it lives up to expectations.

Needless to say this price range would cover the entire GM brand structure with the exception a few Cadillac models, the Corvette and a couple of high-end SUV/ Pickup trucks. Now considering that Toyota and VW are also capable of reaching prices will into and above $50,000 it is obvious that GM brand structure is beyond repair.

In a world of $35,000 Avalons and $50,000 Sequioas names like Buick and Pontiac carry zero “speciality” appeal.

If GM is to survive it is high time to pull its own head out of its A$$ and face the reality of todays marketplace. The japanese automakers success marketing brands with an average price spread of over $35,000 from the lowest to the top of the line models has destroyed all viabilty in the old GM/ Domestic multi-brand model of business.

GM brand sturcture is nothing more than a Catch-22 senerio today. Each brand only serves to hurt the image of the other brands that have overlaping price structures. If a Chevy is (and nees to be) less of a car than a Pontiac how does GM expect to sell a Impala and G8. The Chevy dealer will require GM equip a new Impala with as many features as possible yet it must somehow magically cost less than a G8 because the G8s image demands that it be a somehow better car than any Chevy. Now there is also Buick with its Lucrene that needs to pretend to be a luxury car yet not step on Cadillacs toes. Since it cant be a Caddy it must sell on price and value. Now WTF is price and value in a Buick if there is a loaded Impala over at the Chevy dealer that is also SCREAMING value?

Well, of course it’s already pretty late to sell them and it will be difficult in a declining market, but I’m sure there would be interested parties. The best option would be private equity firms (because they would start from scratch), but that’s also the least probable. Apart from that it would be a great chance for Indian or Chinese companies who want to get a foot on the American market. I’m sure that they would pay heaps of money for the know-how and/or the brand names.

Or maybe even a company like Renault/Nissan. They’ve been looking for new partners all along.

So sell Chevy cars and GMC trucks.

I like Toyota’s approach better: they surround strong core models with a large number of niche models all within the Toyota dealer channel. That way they efficiently capture almost the same retail market share as GM (in California far surpassing GM).

Dynamic88-Chevy dealers like to sell trucks. Chevy dealers sell a lot of trucks. Most Chevy dealers sell very few cars and lots of pickups and SUVs. GM isn’t going to take trucks from them. Buick and Pontiac are one and the same at this point (along with GMC)-kill them all or keep them all, and the three combined sell too much to kill them.

mikey-Everybody who wants a Camaro will buy one during the first model year or so. Then sales will crater. Besides, total sales for it will, at most, be half to a quarter as many as Toyota sells Camrys or Honda sells Accords. It’s not GM’s salvation. It might be profitable-then again, it might not, if sales really do start very stong and then collapse, which is the pattern for most of GM’s car models.

GM had plenty of competition. Ford, Chrysler, Hudson, Studebaker, Nash, Packard…… Often GM divisions competed successfully with their non-GM rivals. Sometimes not. But they didn’t have to compete with each other.

“But I really don’t see a point in keeping the rest. What could Buick, Saab, GMC, Saturn, Pontiac really offer GM that Caddy/Chevy can’t do?”

If Chevy is the common man’s car, and Caddy makes luxury cars, then it’s not hard to see there is an opening for something right in between. Nicer than a Chevy, but cheaper than a Caddy. So at least 3 divisions could have a purpose in life. That in between division could be Saturn, or Buick, or Pontiac – but only one of them. Probably Buick, imo.

GMC ought to be doing trucks. It’s the only division that ought to be doing trucks.

Want a performance/youth oriented car for the average person’s budget? You just found a reason for Pontiac to exist.

GM doesn’t need to pare down to two divisions, it just needs to make each division actually stand for something.

Honestly, GM should sell off most of their brands. I mean what do they really need? I think Cadillac and Chevrolet would be enough (in America). Both should offer the full line of vehicles, Chevrolet being the “bargain” brand and Cadillac offering luxury vehicles. Maybe GM could also keep Hummer because they don’t interfere with anybody.

But I really don’t see a point in keeping the rest. What could Buick, Saab, GMC, Saturn, Pontiac really offer GM that Caddy/Chevy can’t do? They’re merely remnants of a business model of which I don’t know if it ever was effective, but which is definitely never coming back.

So I’d advise them to sell those brands as long as they can still get money for them. GM could also package them together with plants/dealers they don’t need anymore.

Of course GM should still keep Opel/Vauxhall/Holden and Buick for their overseas ventures, but 8 brands in one market will never work out without some serious overlaps.

shabatski-You can’t kill Buick and GMC without killing Pontiac at the same time-most dealers of the three are combined. Plus, GMC in particular sells a lot of (very profitable) trucks, and many of those buyers are snobbish enough that they won’t buy the exact same Chevy model-they will go to Ford or Toyota instead. In fact, Pontiac and Buick these days exist mainly for GMC dealers to have some cars on the side to sell.

Chevy is the common man’s brand. They should keep it cheap and reliable. $12k-30k
Cadillac should move upmarket – starting price around $40k+ (of course they need justified product)
SAAB is for import buyers. $25k-$40k
Hummer’s obviously original enough on its own.
Pontiac should only make 3 models of sporty cars:
- Solstice convertable
- GTO Coupe
- G8 Sedan
- Price range should stay b/w $20k-$30k as a performance car for the masses.

Saturn no longer has the credibility to be an import fighter.
Buick can stay abroad as re badged Chevy’s or Caddy’s but leave those buyers in America to decide to buy Chevy’s or Caddy’s instead.
GMC buyers would switch to Chevy without blinking an eye.

I would consolidate Chevy, Pontiac and Hummer dealers together; as well as SAAB and Caddy together.

Ah, if only I ran GM… (and didn’t have franchise law to contend with).