First off, Tundra incentives are mostly for the base model. The fullsize truck segment is tough, and Toyota is fighting an uphill battle. Many truck buyers actually *expect* incentives, so Toyota is competing very hard here.

As RF stated, the Tundra having incentives is a BAD thing. Toyota has never tried this hard in the fullsize truck segment before, and believe me, the Tundra will slowly bring the pain to Detroit automakers.

Steven_Lang, most of your points are wrong. Cadillac is not a top luxury contender, far from it. Also, Toyota by far outsells GM when it comes to subcompacts.

What I’d really love to see is how GM loyalists and optimists who are far from reality will respond to GM’s 2006 financial results.

The point of the Tundra is this: Even assuming arguendo that it fails to achieve the goals set for it, what will Toyota do? Will they quit the field? Will they act like the dilletante-ish big 2.5 and drop the whole project altogether?

No. They’ll analyze their failure and keep coming back. And if that fails, they’ll try again. They’ll come back again and again and again for as long as it takes.

Is there any automotive segment they’ve set their sights on that they haven’t triumphed in? Honda brought us the first Hybrid, but when people think of a Hybrid car, what do they think of? The Prius! SUVs have been around since the depression, but Toyota’s fleet of SUVs are among the top sellers in the world (on the World Market – where the US manufacturers are largely AWOL – Toyota sells a lot of juicy SUVs that US off-roaders would love to get their hands on.)

And who sells the most compact (not full-sized) trucks in the USA? Anyone want to take a guess?

Meanwhile, even with disappointing sales, every Tundra sold eats further into the only cash cow the big 2.5 have. And after that first Tundra is sold, it makes it so much more likely that, come trade-in time, the owner will be more amenable to other import offerings….

I had a few accidents with my Corolla but nothing as bad as you. I lived in Mexico in the late 70’s and often drove my Corolla in places where you absolutely, positively didn’t want to have a breakdown. If I had been driving a Ford Escort like my brother bought I’d have been in a world of hurt.

I’m a student of history and I understand how China suffered under Japanese occupation. If people who lived through that will buy Japanese products then the psychological barrier has been well and truly broken.

I also had a 76 corolla in 82. Great car for the time, but not totally indestructible. Ran a red light and got slammed by a truck. Woke up when they were putting me into the ambulance. Not much left of the corolla.

And the Corolla was a terrific car. Fun to drive and nearly indestructible.

Indiana has ~40 personalized plates you can get for your car. About 12 years ago, a car passed me with the plate PH1. When I caught up to it at a red light, I noticed it was a Pearl Harbor survivor plate, the first one. I thought, how cool to see the first one, I have yet to see the first on of any of the others. I looked inside and saw a tall grey haired man in the passenger seat and a short grey haired woman driving, looking through the steering wheel. I noticed three bumper stickers about Pearl Harbor and to never forget what happened. Then I looked up and on back of the trunk lid, one on each side, it read Honda Accord. Either they forgave or needed good transportation or both. True story.

The other day I saw a Toyota Sienna minivan with a “Pearl Harbor Survivor” bumpersticker driven by an old vet.

And that Grand National…well, the Budweiser crowd out there still finds it to be an endearing hulk of crap too.

You see, most of that crap has not contributed one iota to GM’s well-being, now has it?

If it were ONLY as simple as bringing back the Grand National, why, Honda and Toyota..and now Hyundai would be packing their suitcases and heading home, now wouldn’t they?

No… Where is that Grand National plant employing thousands? And tell me, where is Hyundai building the relatively new Sonata and Santa Fe?

I’m sorry, your logic fails to impress.

…and Fairmont in later years.

Sweet dreams re. your Mustang. Most people with a lick of sense know better.

That Ford Fairmont was a mighty FIND Mustang…I believe it had a 17 year run, did it not?

Here…let me fill you in on a little secret…those “muscle” cars, and “monster” trucks….they are for those with a few short-circuited neurons. They lack taste…entirely.

No Mustang will save Ford’s hide. Trust me on this, my friend.

Best cars ever made? How about the 1984-1987 Buick Grand Nationals and Regals(T-Types)? The 1993-1998 Toyota Supras? The 1964½-1973 Mustangs and the 1979-1993 Mustangs?

And the import scene hails their 1992-2000 Civics and 1990-2001 Integras.

But maybe cars like that are only “best ever” to those who own them? Maybe cars like that aren’t company savers?

What’s it take to turn a corporation around?

I was at a local new model dealers show this weekend. The market is absolutely flooded with mediocre cars. You want something cheap that gets decent mileage and is about $14,000? You’ve got about 5 makes and models or more to choose from. Something $16k or $20k; the whole market pretty much. The problem is nothing really stands out. Nothing excels at anything. A vehicle has to have something special about it.

I say that, then look at all the bland Camrys and Accords driving around.

Maybe the domestic 2¼ just aren’t competitive in any way. Marketing and branding. Everyone knows what an Accord/Civic or Camry is and the quality it hails. How about fuel economy? Who leads in that field? Performance? Price? What is GM best at? What is their best example? Is that the best they can do? What do they have? Some $14, $16, and $20k cars just like everyone else. How can you save a company with blandness? Where’s the zest and the zeal? They need a 1964 and a ½ Mustang to save the day. Watch this and wonder how they did it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBot2MAewpY

I once saw an Astro Van out there, and well…I believe it was what one would call a “ghetto statement” to put it kindly.

Although I don’t entirely disagree with that, it should be pointed out that the Big 2.5 have long enjoyed government protection thanks to a 25% tariff on imported trucks, otherwise known as the “chicken tax.” This has provided Detroit with a protected market with a noteworthy lack of competition, as foreign competitors turned their attentions on cars, which have been subject to a much lower 2.5% tariff.

Had there been no “chicken tax,” Detroit would have almost certainly faced much stiffer competition than it has to date. In the parking lot of the American auto market, GM has enjoyed the largest handicapped parking space of all, living off the largess of lawmakers who have protected the General from bona fide foreign competition.

(And just in case anyone was wondering, Japan’s tariff on imported cars and trucks is…zero.)

I’m confused. Is that Rocky V, or Rocky (VI) Balboa?

Tell your story to Saturn, Buick, Pontiac, Daewoo, Vauxhal, and Opel.

Let’s see what Wednesday has in store regarding all those wonderful trucks, there Urban Cowboy :)

Toyota USA, on the other hand, is a great car company which also makes a few trucks. Toyota’s small truck is by far the best in the business and the new Tundra is a good effort, but it will take a long time for it to gain traction. GM’s truck customers are a very loyal bunch. GM’s car customers are mostly not very loyal, and for good reason. It really is two different companies.

Chrysler is the king of also-ran products in the US. Even it’s minivan holds onto market share thanks only to momentum. Toyota, Honda and even Hyundai all build better minivans than Chrysler now.

1) GM has become the most successful foreign manufacturer in China.

2) Cadillac has gone from an also-ran to a top contender in the luxury car market.

3) The most successful new brand of the past decade has not been Scion… but Hummer.

4) GM’s all new Silverado has thoroughly trounced the Tundra in the first several months of direct competition. This is the real reason why Toyota is trying to rebate and incentivize their way to more sales in this market.

5) GM has by far the most successful SUV line-up in the North American market. Say all what you want about fuel economy. At the end of the day there are still millions of people buying SUV’s and Pickup’s, and it is still by far the most profitable market segments in the U.S.

Let’s also throw in 0% financing after 9/11, employee pricing when sales were starting to tank, the wise decision to jettison GMAC before the sub-prime market got ugly, and the strong improvement in their product line-up (Impala, Aura, Solstice, Corvette, Escalade, SRX, and the G8 GT) and you know what I see?

A company that is starting to fight like a champion.

For a company that is hamstrung by a lot of excess baggage, I’m truly amazed at how well they’ve fought in the marketplace.

I’m rooting for em’… in good part because I’m sick of all the misinformation and outright lies that have been spewed by the media. I’ve seen a LOT of late model and well worn vehicles from all different makes and I think the General still offers a better car, a better SUV, and a better truck than anyone else in various important market segments.

While Ford offered bland and inferior products, and while Daimler bled the Chrysler product line bone dry, GM has stood toe to toe with the imports in NA and has won more than their fair share of customers while achieving strong owner loyalty ratings as well.

So while some folks here prefer to give anecdotal evidence and generalizations, I’ll just look at the new car reviews, the J.D. Power ratings, and the overall car market (new and used) to see what’s selling.

5)

routinely sells more subcompacts than Toyota

John

Thank you.