Just because you sound surprised that it makes 115HP (as if that is alot), I’ll mention that my ‘99 CR-V 2.0L makes 146 HP naturally aspriated. Of course it has much less torque in normal rpm ranges and is in a much heavier vehicle than my VW Cabrio. VBG!

Hmm, let’s switch the engines in these vehicles so their personalities match the application better… VBG!

A four banger is all the average person needs for hauling around themselves and three passengers or themselves and some stuff.

Of course much of our fellow citizens wants am much power and vehicle as they can navigate down the streets of America. We all pay for their consumption habits.

That is one reason I want a fuel EV for my around town driving. If I have a full solar array on my house roof then those led foot daily drivers can use all the fuel they want and my cost is independent of how the market reacts.

FWIW the cost of fuel will continue to go up. There are 160M drivers in China and 60M four wheeled vehicles. That does not include the millions of scooters or the size of the fleet and potential fleet in other developing countries like India. we’ll hit little plateaus where fuel costs remain the same or where it even drops a little but I feel certain it will continue to consume a larger percentage of our personal budgets.

FWIW Maybe this is a good thing. Bring some of our neighbors back to reality so that this generation gains some of the wisdom that our grandparents did in the Great Depression. Of course they too consumed as quickly as they could for a decade or two after WWII but I surely have met alot of retirees who made very careful choices that left them with a comfortable retirement and money to help their children into adulthood.

Remember that when we are paying $5 a gallon, the cost of fuel in Europe potentially rise as well if their more valuable currency doesn’t mediate this as well. I feel our current consumption patterns can’t be sustained for generation after generation.

FWIW I have a couple friends who are casually educating ourselves about how to feed ourselves without high cost groceries. I mean we are reading up and/or practicing some of the skills that our grandparents had like gardening and canning.

Katrina demonstrated to us how fragile our society is. We can’t rely on the gov’t to show up and hold our hands. We can’t rely on them to bring us groceries. We can’t rely on them to make the best decisions for us as a country.

Time to make some good decisions for ourselves. Unfortunately there are enough dimwits in this country that will continue to do what is easiest and potentially undermine whatever good decisions our gov’t does make. Hopefully people will surprise us some better decisions.

But, speaking of 4 bangers, I do not know enough about the ecotech to comment but are you saying that the ecotech would be a class leader if GM had paid more attention to it? I would say thats true of everything. I do know that my girlfiend’s sister has a 1996 jetta, loves it. I drove it and even though it’s 2 liter only makes 115hp, it was way more zippy and fun than my 2006 Focus. NA car makers are way behind and have some catching up to do.

Both are designed as performance cars, but the Corvette is also usable as a daily driver, offering superior fuel economy and durability in typical driving situations. To me, that is good engineering.

Of course, (getting back to the discussion regarding four-cylinder engines) if GM had lavised similar care and attention on the Cavalier/Cobalt over the years, it wouldn’t be in its present position. The Cobalt and its Ecotech engine would be class leaders by a wide margin.

frizzlefry: Reliability is reported by consumer reports as “problems per 100 cars”. Question is, what defines a problem?

Consumer Reports breaks down reliability by components and component groups clearly on its charts. And, when it gives the final, overall reliability rating, it places more emphasis on serious problems (i.e., drivetrain, air conditioning compressor, etc.) than on more minor issues (rattling interior trim, etc.).

frizzlefry: People tend not to buy a brand again if a life threatening defect, like brake failure, occurs. Thats why European cars have brand loyalty (Audi had a very good year) and domestics sales are falling like a meteor.

A few months ago another poster linked to information on which marques are more likely to experience customer defections, and the Europeans were far more likely to bleed customers than either domestics or the Asians (which were best at retaining customers).

Most owners of European cars who buy another tend to be those who lease their cars and turn them in just before the warranty ends.

Regarding those who buy their cars and keep them for a long time, and those who buy USED European cars…they tend to switch to another brand, usually mid-line or high-line Asian (Acura, Lexus, etc.). The experience of dealing with frequent troubles, and paying for the expenses out of pocket, tends to dull their enthusiasm for their present vehicle (even though most of them loved the way that the vehicle handled and performed).

Note, for example, that most brand-new BMWs are leased, and VW has been LOSING money in the U.S.

Reliability is reported by consumer reports as “problems per 100 cars”. Question is, what defines a problem? The seat adjuster failing is considered a problem. But so is an engine defect that causes the car to stall in traffic. I have had 3 domestic cars. One, engine had to be replaced at 96000km. The next one, the exhaust system failed at 63000km, then again a week later after it was fixed. The 3rd one I leased brand new. I discovered the brake booster losses vacuum on hot days (only in high altitude locations) so you need two feet to stop the car after parked until the vacuum builds up again. Of course, I discovered that when I rear-ended someone on the 3rd day of my lease. The manufacturer acknowledged the problem and replaced the car will the next years model. It has the same problem, though not as bad. I just pump the brake before I start driving to prevent another accident.

I have a friend who had a VW. I asked if he liked it. “Yeah its great, reliability sucks though. My radio stopped working and the sunroof jams all the time.” Well….at least his brakes work. He just bought a new GTI, despite his sunroof experience.

“Problems per 100″ is not a good measure for reliability that really matters. I would rather my remote door unlock stop working (My father’s Audi A6) than have my engine catch on fire (my sister’s recalled Pontiac).

People tend not to buy a brand again if a life threatening defect, like brake failure, occurs. Thats why European cars have brand loyalty (Audi had a very good year) and domestics sales are falling like a meteor.

Really? Compare the fuel consumption and reliability of the Corvette to the Ferrari. (We can turn your arguments on their head – from a bigger engine with almost equal performance the Corvette gets superior fuel mileage.)

For that matter, drive a Corvette on a daily basis, then try the same thing in a Ferrari. Want to guess which one will hold up better in daily use?

Then tell me that European engineering is better than American engineering.

The late John R. Bond of Road & Track summed it up best: Any engineer worth his salt can design a water pump for a Rolls-Royce. It takes a genius to design one for a Chevrolet.

frizzlefry: The only main advantage that American cars tend to have over Euro cars is that they are cheaper and can hold big gulp cups :)

Read the latest annual auto issue of Consumer Reports.

Another big advantage that most American cars have over European ones is that they actually tend to work. All of that superior engineering isn’t doing anyone much good when the vehicle is on the lift at the dealer…

The actual comparison was a 360 Modena vs a Vette C06. The Corevette beat the Ferrari by half a second to 60 and the top speed it was able reach on the course they were using was 18 mph faster on the short straightaway section. The Ferrari won all the other challenges (handling, braking etc).

Carshark, I was not exaggerating, by much anyways :) The 2004 Corvette C06 has 7 liters of displacement, the 2004 Modena has 3.6…so its engine is pretty much half the size of the Vette. And it was only beat by half a second on the 0-60…and the top speed for the Modena is 186mph. The Corvette, with an engine twice the size, tops out at 176mph.

Not saying the Vette is not a great sports car. It is. Just saying that, like most American cars, the engineering is not as good as European cars. Its the same for supercars as it is for 4 bangers. Of course a 7 liter engine will be fast, but its just not a very impressive feet of engineering is all.

The only main advantage that American cars tend to have over Euro cars is that they are cheaper and can hold big gulp cups :)

And if potential customers want a four-cylinder car, would you rather that they buy a Focus, or go over to the Honda dealer for their next vehicle?

Or is no commission better than a small commission?

frizzlefry: Sure he won, but should he be proud about it?

Price a Ferrari, then price a Corvette, and then get back to us…

Yes. He beat a car likely costing twice as much, if not more.

I doubt that the Ferrari only cost twice as much unless it was the cheapest Ferrari and a Corvette ZR1. For the cost of a Ferrari you can buy three Corvette Z06s. So, I guess it would be like a 3rd grader bragging about how he outsmartd a freshman in highschool. By the way, the Corvette also gets much better gas mileage than the Ferrari, despite the greater displacement, in daily driving-20+ mpg on the highway is real for a Corvette.

All the vehicles I’ve driven in the past 15 years including gas powered vehicles have been 4 cylinder. I don’t know why people think/thought that a 6 cylinder is/was a necessity in a passenger car. With the engineering that goes into 4 cylinder engines from European and Asian manufacturers, they’ve been able to turn out some pretty impressive engines with good power and good economy. It’s too bad that fuel prices have been the only way to make people downsize.

By how much?

The corvette guy bragged that there was no replacement for displacement. But from a design standpoint its not a very impressive win. The Ferrari has an engine HALF the size. It would be like a 6th grader bragging about beating a 3rd grade kid by 5 feet in a 100 meter dash.

Unless Ferraris have 2.85L engines nowadays, I think you’re exaggerating a bit.

Sure he won, but should he be proud about it?

Yes. He beat a car likely costing twice as much, if not more. It’s a different design than you’d like, but that doesn’t make it worse.

So cheap can still be built properly. To not do so is just lazy. And GM/FoMoCo wonder why their econo-cars constantly get beat in reviews.

I wonder what other corners are cut if black tape was considered a viable option for an engine cover.

The E67 AMG has a displacement of 6.2 litres. The Vette has a displacement of 7 liters. I would not count on the Vette getting the same mileage…E36 gets about 14mpg city, the vette gets 16mpg.

It could cheat by “turning off” half the cylinders when you’re cruising to get good mileage ratings like alot of yank cars do these days. Sorry, thats not good engine design…its a way to improve your engine mileage on paper without designing a better engine.

The E63 is a gorgeous beast. But even the European supercars do spend the time to put some thought into effeciancy and design. Personally, I think there is no comparison to a Corvette.

American Engineer 1: “The new AMG is pretty fast, what should we do to compete with its new power numbers?”
American Engineer 2: “I dunno…make the engine bigger. People who buy these never look at the mileage anyways.”

:)

I wholeheartedly agree. Long live the 4cyl TSX, and I for one hope Acura resists the temptation to put a V6 in this car. Too bad for ‘09 they had to “supersize” the TSX just like they did the ‘08 Accord.

I will be you a lot of money that in 2008 reality the average dealer profit on a Yaris or Fit is far larger than the profit on an F150!

I recently did a 4,000 mile round trip in our TSX and it’s 4 cylinder engine was more than up to the task. Our speed averaged a bit over 75 MPH and fuel economy for the trip clocked in at just over 31 MPG. This was a western US trip, so plenty of mountain ranges were scaled. There was always plenty of power available, thought I did actually have the pedal floored for a few moments at a time while doing some upgrade passing at 75 MPH+. Ya gotta love the 80 MPH speed limits of west Texas.

A modern high tech 4 cylinder can provide plenty of motive power when coupled to a reasonable weight vehicle.

I suspect that we are also going to see an up-tick in turbocharger use like we did in the 1980s. Base 4 cylinder engines with a turbo offered as the performance upgrade will become more common.

The 2.5l 4 cylinder in my Nissan Frontier really impresses me as well. It’s happy to chug along at low revs as much as I like but when I want to play it’ll happily rev to its’ limit without any thrashing (it actually sounds pretty happy).

The corvette guy bragged that there was no replacement for displacement. But from a design standpoint its not a very impressive win. The Ferrari has an engine HALF the size. It would be like a 6th grader bragging about beating a 3rd grade kid by 5 feet in a 100 meter dash.

Sure he won, but should he be proud about it?

My how the little ole 4 cyl engine has come along in the last decade. If you have not driven a car with a good 4 cyl engine like an Accord or Camry you will be in for a rather nice surprise. These engines are wonderful for what they are VVT has changed everything!

Even when equiped with a auto both the Camry and Accord perform extremely well with a 4 pot. Between the electronics in the tranny and the VVT the power is always on tap.