I also bought a 2003 Taurus around the same time. My only complaint is the very poor fit and finish. The upholstery on the rear doors is coming off and the glue has flaked off.

Well, at the end of the day I’m just one customer. However, I can tell you this, my hard earned dollars are going elsewhere when I replace these vehicles.

Yeah, I’m looking at a maintenance guide for ‘99 Toyotas and it says 90k for the timing belt, except for the Corolla which uses a chain. I don’t know about ’97s, but in ‘99 the maintenance stuff is in a separate booklet from the owner’s manual. They also suggest changing the coolant and non-plat spark plugs every 30k, which I don’t do.

As for Ford—their quality increases go beyond the Fusion to many of the vehicles in their line ( as documented by CR and JD Power). Time will tell if they are able to sustain their recent success.

umterp85: As far as I know quality ratings of Toyota (in Consumer Reports, etc) have been pretty much stable over the last 10 years. The 2007 Camry suffers from the new model change-over, but by now they’re probably already back to their old quality level. Perhaps Ford is improving, but to know for sure I’d like to see a 10 year track record. For now they have a 2 year track record with the Fusion and that’s about it. GM still seems to be making a mess of quality; not surprising with all the turmoil.

It doesn’t take ten years to find out. We do know the amount of quality issues related to the Toyota brand have increased exponentially over the last few years. That is a fact. The 2007 Camry is no 1997 Camry.

Sajeev: No, the first time I changed spark plugs was at 120,000 miles. I also got the timing belt changed at 120,000 miles for $279

Did you own the car @ 60,000 miles? I don’t think the Camry can make it to 120k on the original timing belt. IIRC, its every 60-70k for Toyota belts. Ditto the plugs, even Ford platinums only last 100k.

And something like that for the brake pads too.

My question remains: can we expect the new, new Ford to go 140,000 miles without any repairs, beyond standard maintenance?

Depends if Ford keeps the component quality up to snuff and if they follow the (successful) OEM service requirements of Toyota and Honda.

I guess we’ll find out sometime circa 2010 if Ford can give what the market demands. And if the latest Camry has slipped up one too many times.

Sajeev: No, the first time I changed spark plugs was at 120,000 miles. I also got the timing belt changed at 120,000 miles for $279 (nowadays they have a timing chain, so you don’t even need to do that). I also got a coolant and A/T fluid change one time. The water pump is still original. I’m not aware of paying for any gaskets. I figure, if you take the maintenance schedule of Toyota and multiply by two, you should still be fine.

My question remains: can we expect the new, new Ford to go 140,000 miles without any repairs, beyond standard maintenance? That’s obviously what it would take to get me to switch brands.

EJ: Betcha that 60,000 mile timing-belt service/reacharound got you new spark plugs too…and stuff like new gaskets, fresh coolant, maybe even a new water pump.

You got 140,000 miles on a set of brake pads? I’m not saying that’s impossible, but it’s a standard wear item replaced during regular maintenance.

The dirty little secret is that older Japanese cars need plenty of replacement parts, but standard maintenance intervals (i.e. replacing timing belts before they blow out) mask it all…and the owner is happy enough knowing that the car runs fine once it comes back from the shop.

Reply to Robert SD.

I really hope you are right about the Ford of today; it is a shame to hear you admit that a messed up culture is part of the equation still. I don't know how you change that.

It would be a very rare management level employee who has done quite well for himself in the system moving up steadiliy through the ranks, to all of a sudden encourage people who have a different philosophy then himself. How many VP's wake up one day and suddenly start listening to the people who have been critical of his methods, and recognizing the A*** K*****'s for what they are.

In the Ford system the people with dissension in their hearts keep it to themselves or are quickly moved along. I wonder where Mulally is going to find the people amongst his ranks to do things a new way, he is surrounded by those who learned and rewarded for keeping their opinions to themselves.

When Nissan started their first plant in Tennessee they hired a Plant Manager from a Ford Plant to be their Plant Manager. The interviewer asks the Ford guy now sitting at a cafeteria table in standard uniform blues, how he went from being an autocrat in the Ford System, to a team builder in the Nissan System.

He just answered that basically you did what you had to do to survive in the Ford System, in Nissans system he did what needs to be done to meet the needs of their system. To me that says given the right environment even a Ford Autocrat can embrace the new times.

I can give you plenty of examples of what can be built by Ford (and GM, if you’d like) and how long these cars can last if they are maintained properly (ie – not by dealers). I can also give you examples of shoddy quality (my aunt’s Windstar that was dead by 80k miles) and what can happen if you don’t maintain (my friend’s poor Escort that didn’t get oil changes, timing belts replaced, air filters swapped, etc etc).

But the question is what is Ford today? The build quality is much higher. Period. There is no escaping that fact. The design quality is higher. Witness the lack of recalls on 2006 and 2007 model year vehicles (I think there have been 8 encompassing like 50,000 units out of 4+ milion sold).

So, yes, we can hear all about Ford’s messed up culture of the past (and present to some extent – that’s one of Mulally’s big challenges), and we can talk about all the terrible things they used to do. But clearly, their game is completely different now. If you don’t see it, then you just don’t want to. A concerted effort since about when Bill Ford’s reign began has seen Ford’s newer models jump towards the top of JD Power’s, CR’s and Strategic Vision’s quality lists. And eventually, changes like this at Ford and other companies will lower “reliability” as a factor in purchasing a vehicle and, ultimately, make all our vehicles that much better.

Are we talking about the “intrinsic” quality of a component, independent of its function or of the demands that will be made of it during its life?

Are we talking about the “perceived” quality of a component (or components) – such as Mr. Farago’s perception that the new Ford Focus is constructed largely of duct tape and Velcro?

Despite grumblings about “bean counters” sucking the quality out of components, it’s a fact (despite anecdotal evidence presented here to the contrary) that new vehicles are supremely reliable, and better than they have ever been. When we say that “quality” is being removed, I think most of us are talking about intrinsic (perceived)quality, or the quality of something being so overbuilt that it’s obvious just by looking at it, and not anything related to a component functioning reliably over its service life. This goes for both the consumer noticing a cheap glove compartment latch, or the industry insider regretting changes made to transmission components.

Does that mean that the accountants and cost people never go too far? The answer is no. However, their efforts ruin perception (back to that Velcro and duct tape – i.e. things not done right) far more often than they affect quality (in terms of “reliability” – i.e. things not gone wrong).

Good point. 20 years from now we might hear from another David Robinson who worked for Toyota.

No offense taken. That said, Does 107,000 on a ‘97 Explorer make your cut ?

I had little issue with the Explorer other than replacing the front rotors at 60K. My mistake was letting snobbery get the best of me and buying a BMW X5 that saw the shop every 8 weeks. I should never have traded the Explorer in. BTW—my Ford dealer experience has been fantastic.

Given my Explorer experience and all of the FACTS AND DATA from recent quality surveys that show Ford has improved greatly, I am confident that my Mustang and Lincoln will provide good service.

Last, Toyota has bean counters as well—-they must be the reason that Toyota cannot engineer and launch a car without some kind of recall or mulitple TSB’s. Also—check the grade of plastics in the new Camry—talk about bean counting. This isn’t the 80’s or 90’s Camry—it it TODAY—and Toyota has proven they can beancount with the best—-it isn’t just a Ford or GM issue.

Not that I blame the guy for taking a coffee break, I just wish he didn’t use my car as a garbage can. No respect. Ditto the beancounter who was responsible for the AOD transmission recall a few months later. And the ignition switch recall 10 years later. And…enough already!

umterp85: tell us how your Fords fare at 90,000 miles. I expect they will fare much better, but that’s when we’ll see if we are right about Ford’s improving quality.

There’s an old Henry Ford story in which he surveyed scrap yards to see how the Model T fared, and he found that the kingpin in the steering assembly to be the car’s most durable part.

Rather than complimenting his engineers on the kingpin’s superior design, he had them skimp on it to make it cheaper.

There was one gentleman who had ongoing electrical problems with his Winstar, for over three-years, nearing the end of warranty coverage. Ford had already extended his warranty free of charge, but despite repeated trips to the repairman, the gremlins persisted. He lived a short drive from the Oakville assembly plant where the van originated, and tried to get Ford to exchange his lemon for a new one. Fat chance of that happening in a jurisdiction without lemon laws, Ford decided to repair his van one last time, and sent an engineer to supervise the work.

He had no more faith in their service, but Ford basically gave him the cold shoulder, saying that they’ve done all they could do. While I can’t blame Ford for evading precedent of replacing cars for every disgruntled customer knocking at their door, I thought that maybe they could meet him in the middle, and give him a new van off-lease that had an impeccable service history.

Perhaps there’s no such Winstar in existence, given radimus’ post.

Allow me to present exhibit A in my arguement: The Ford Windstar minivan.

First, Ford takes a Taurus platform. They stretch it out a bit on all sides, add about 1000 lbs to reinforce the body for safety and rigitidy and such, and then install the same drivetrains they put in the Taurus. Keep in mind that by this time the Taurus was already making a sour reputation for itself (3.8L V6’s blowing head gaskets, failed transmissions, etc). So, the 95 Windstar hits the market and steals Chrysler’s thunder in the minivan market for a few years. It’s got five stars of safety rating, it’s comfortable and smooth (just like the Taurus) and everyone loves them. Then 50-90k miles goes by and the beancounting comes home to roost. Just like in the Taurus, the 3.8’s are tossing headgaskets and the AX4S trannies are self-destructing. Only it’s happening sooner and more often because of the extra weight of the van itself and the fact that a lot of people who buy minivans use them like light trucks. Ford’s response is typical. Ignore the problem for as long as possible until just before the lawsuits start to fly, and then band-aid it enough to stave off the lawsuits. By the time Ford issued an extended warranty on the head gasket problem (just the head gaskets, mind you) most of the people who had the problem had already fixed the problem out of their own pocket. And the warranty was only for seven years, so any vans that were not driven hard enough to blow their head gaskets will be tossing theirs after the warranty has expired.

Finally, late in the 98 production year, Ford changes the engine and fixes the head gasket issue. However the transmission problem is still there. The tranny has been updated here and there but is still marginally suited for the task. No bother though. The problem is infrequent enough that Ford can ignore it for the most part and they do mostly. TSB’s and updates dribble in until a redesigned transmission in put into the 2002 model year and then in 2004 when the Freestar comes out with a different drivetrain altogether. No instead of being built like a tall FWD car it’s built more like a low-end F150 with the drive wheels on the wrong end. It’s actually built well enough to take the abuse many people foist on a minivan.

It’s too little and way too late though. By 98 Chrysler has regained their position in the minivan segment by releasing a redesigned van in 96 with the passenger slider option. Shortly afterwards Toyota and Honda get into the fray and pick up more Windstar refugees. In the meantime other fruit of the beancounters matures. Electrical contacts on the sliding doors wear out causing the sound from the rear speakers to cut out most annoyingly. The seals in the isolator bolts that hold the air plenum to the intake manifold fail after prolonged exposure to oil and cause an air leak, prompting a check engine light. The power steering pumps begin making a very disconcerting whine at around 90K miles.

I’m sure the same holds true for many other vehicles Ford makes. I just decided to present one of the more infamous to make my point.

And like Mikey has stated, GM is no better. Most veteran GM owners know that there’s an undocumented maintenance interval on GM cars. The one where at around 80-110k miles its time to change out the radiator, water pump, alternator, starter, and AC compressor. And it takes about 2-4 years and several tow truck operators before you’re done performing this maintenance.

Self-fulfilled prohecy indeed. jaje’s point about the customer service at the Honda dealership further drives home the point. Once the Big 2.8 loose a customer to the transplants they rarely get them back since they discover how much they were being abused.