Alright, I will. And hopefully the Big 3 (not so big anymore) will be the first to fall and take the UAW with them. Jap-based? Rice-based? FOOLISH?…no, look in the mirror and you’ll see racist ignorance.

What? Is this TheTruthAboutCerealsAndGrainsDotCom, Ressler?

Ressler: “I wrote previously that I have no idea what this means.”

Sure you don’t. Even though lashbera spelled it out for you, right there, with “jap based vehicle,” “japanese based company” and “rice based companys [sic].”

Yeah. Nobody knows what “rice ready, not road ready” means. Especially those that don’t want to know.

Uncle Ben’s comes to mind.

…compare and contrast with “rice ready, not road ready.”

I wrote previously that I have no idea what this means.

Phil

A longer discussion, but this thinking is what Americans have to get past.

Examining the automaker’s current catalog tells you nothing useful about the quality of their vehicles. Quality comes from consistent application of good processes and controls. If they “get it,” you’ll be able to tell.

And, in fact, examining and vetting the current catalog tells you what you need to know. Most people just aren’t truly examining the evidence in front of them, so they delegate their vetting to a disconnected crowdsourced impression. Not me. Obviously, my method works, as I’ve had no notable problems.

I did. It doesn’t. And you promised “compelling.” Where’s the “compelling” in a Malibu? Some think it edges the Camry but… so what? Most people will trade a few bucks here and there for a feature or an edge or other minor difference. “Compelling” overwhelms that willingness to accept a substitute, at any price. The Malibu has none of that.

Well, we disagree. I can extrapolate from driving both that a ten hour road trip in a Malibu will be pleasureable, but same in a Camry will be onerous. Malibu has better interior space utilization, more impressive structure, more precise steering, better suspension control, seriously more attractive interior assembled with better precision. I can’t think of a single aspect of a Camry I prefer or consider equally competitive. After the last Malibu, I had no expectations for the new one. If I were in the market for that class/type of car (I’m not) Malibu is a compelling choice. By the way, I’d take a Taurus over a Camry too.

Do you sit on any parole boards? I’m thinking it would be great for the inmates if you did… “Oh, I’ve changed. I’m better. Just turn me loose and I’ll show you.”

No. Do you know of any openings?

Phil

Our relationship with GM, Ford and Chrysler is not “neighbor.” They are a vendor. We are potential customers. That’s how they treat me; that’s how I treat them. In fact, not only are we not neighbors, I haven’t even been a “valued customer.” As someone remarked, once the check clears, you become the enemy.

In this relationship, as you say, GM’s part is to improve, so as to persuade me to make a deal. Once persuasive evidence is offered, then we can look into a purchase. Now, GM can either wait 5 years or so for the broad surveys to show that GM’s just as good – or better – or they can do something that shows how much faith they have in the product: a killer warranty. They don’t do that. Draw your own conclusions.

Ressler: “But I have said mine have been over the past 25 years…”

We heard you the first time. And the subsequent 25 times. You’re not the only person in the world who ever bought a car from Detroit, you know; the surveys that rate them “not as good” are – and this may surprise you – filled in by people who bought cars from Detroit.

Ressler: “…and it’s not difficult for others to have the same experience if they simply vet what’s good from what’s bad, which they should do with any maker’s catalog.”

Examining the automaker’s current catalog tells you nothing useful about the quality of their vehicles. Quality comes from consistent application of good processes and controls. If they “get it,” you’ll be able to tell.

Ressler: “Drive it back to back with the two leading imports/transplants. The current Malibu excels, particularly outclassing the Camry.”

I did. It doesn’t. And you promised “compelling.” Where’s the “compelling” in a Malibu? Some think it edges the Camry but… so what? Most people will trade a few bucks here and there for a feature or an edge or other minor difference. “Compelling” overwhelms that willingness to accept a substitute, at any price. The Malibu has none of that.

To be “compelling” in that class, the car must feel rich. It must satisfy. It must outclass in every way… the engine must be smoother and more powerful, the transmission better, the handling AND ride an improvement, the feature list long. You must get into this car, shift it into gear, hit the gas and say, “I could have this for the price of a Camry? Sold!” Which is how it went when I bought my first Toyota, a Sienna, by the way. “I could have this for the price of a Venture? Sold!”

The Malibu has, perhaps and according to some, managed “competitive.” But even if it does manage “competitive,” “compelling” is what changes market share.

Do you sit on any parole boards? I’m thinking it would be great for the inmates if you did… “Oh, I’ve changed. I’m better. Just turn me loose and I’ll show you.”

And when that’s been he case, shame on them. But community problems aren’t solved by holding grudges for past offenses. GM’s part is to improve, which they have, across the board.

Unless and until they say Detroit is “better,” and then, I’m quite sure you’ll be all over that. We’re supposed to have some sort of faith in Ressler’s personal survey that finds D3 cars to be “anvil-reliable,” as opposed to our own personal surveys that find they’ll make good anvils, after suitable recycling.

I really don’t pay attention to Edmund’s nor anyone else’s statistics on reliability for my personal decisions, regardless whether they support or denigrate the D3. I haven’t said all D3 cars are anvil reliabile. But I have said mine have been over the past 25 years and it’s not difficult for others to have the same experience if they simply vet what’s good from what’s bad, which they should do with any maker’s catalog.

You are out of touch with “the struggle.” There’s more than one reason for wanting very good resale value in a car… situations and plans change and emergencies arise. When that happens, good resale value is very important, unless you can keep the XLR and buy whatever other vehicle is needed.

I specifically wrote that for the long-term owner, resale value fades as an issue. The differential effectively disappears. For the short-term owner, it might matter for reasons you say, especially to avoid going into negative equity against a note. Still, most people just don’t pay much attention to this. And yes, my next car may *join* the XLR-V rather than replace it.

But a Malibu?

Yup. Drive it back to back with the two leading imports/transplants. The current Malibu excels, particularly outclassing the Camry. And it’s not the only GM car that’s equally credible in its market. Ford has others, too.

Phil

GM’s problem is that GM’s bread-and-butter line of cars people need is not compelling. If I wanted a goes-like-hell and could afford it, sure, I’d consider a Corvette. There’s not much that can touch that, especially for the price.

But a Malibu? Or an Impala? Or an Aveo? Even a G8 isn’t particularly compelling unless you’re one of the few that demands a crazy amount of horsepower (a Camry V6 is about 260hp… more real power than you could get in most cars twenty years ago).

That devalues trust. Shall I trust the drug addict? The escaped prisoner? The “reformed” car company? Every one sets trust at levels with which they are comfortable. Detroit’s in trouble because they didn’t meet the requirements. That’s most unfortunate. Hey, it’s not like they couldn’t see this coming.

Ressler: “Well, as a person who has bought anvil-reliable US production D3 cars for the last 25 years, I just don’t see reality in either reviews nor survey data.”

I don’t smoke. I might die of cancer, anyway, but I like my odds better this way.

Ressler: “This is exactly the problem, isn’t it? People have become so self-centered and selfish that “I’m not going to gamble *my* money…” is the new anthem for turning away from a community problem.”

Strangely enough, the three transmission repairs that drove me into the arms of the imports weren’t a “community problem” for Detroit. The fellow up the street with a dead Chevy… is that a community problem? I’m certainly willing to help him out; I can offer a ride. What’s GM’s part in this community problem?

Ressler: “I have no particular reason to regard Edmunds’ statistics as worthwhile, but they’re probably as good as any (which means “not much.”).”

Unless and until they say Detroit is “better,” and then, I’m quite sure you’ll be all over that. We’re supposed to have some sort of faith in Ressler’s personal survey that finds D3 cars to be “anvil-reliable,” as opposed to our own personal surveys that find they’ll make good anvils, after suitable recycling.

Ressler: “But the TCO advantage claimed by the Honda is partially reliant on presumptions of resale value. The long-term owner who doesn’t flip cars will see this alleged differential decline with length of ownership. The long-term owner has the least to gain by the artifice of resale value.”

You are out of touch with “the struggle.” There’s more than one reason for wanting very good resale value in a car… situations and plans change and emergencies arise. When that happens, good resale value is very important, unless you can keep the XLR and buy whatever other vehicle is needed.

There comes a time when conventional notions of time-tested trust must be put aside for the greater good, and one has to take a chance. That time has been now for a few years, but for the laggards who haven’t caught on, the present is the moment of truth.

Really, a claim you keep making without any real support. You keep claiming “good,” “better,” “comparable” – I don’t see that in the reviews, the long-term tests, and so on.

Well, as a person who has bought anvil-reliable US production D3 cars for the last 25 years, I just don’t see reality in either reviews nor survey data. Really, it’s not difficult to discern a poor car from a good one, and vice-versa. I simply made good choices on criteria that are easily discernable to anyone who paying attention. Put another way, I don’t need no stinking reviews or long-term tests to know a good car when I see it.

Well, I’m sure not going to gamble my money on ‘em. Obviously, no car company is perfect – but Honda, Toyota and a few others have PROVEN to be a vastly safer bet across the board. I don’t have to ponder if a particular model in their lineup is one of the “good ones” or a model to avoid.

This is exactly the problem, isn’t it? People have become so self-centered and selfish that “I’m not going to gamble *my* money…” is the new anthem for turning away from a community problem. Well, sir, you’re gambling your money anyway, for we are now at the point of payment for our own culture’s progressive abandonment of D3 automobiles — at least as often because it’s nt cool to own one, as due to alienation by products or services.

The last two Hondas were built here in North America (either in Alliston, ONT or E. Liberty OH). I don’t accept your unsupported premise that I’d be doing more economic good for the USA by purchasing a Mexico-built Focus (for example). I see absolutely NO reason to assume a risk for no return.

Your last two Hondas were *assembled* in the United States. A Mexican-built Ford supports the US HQ’d company and the high-value jobs it maintains. And the car contains US content. It’s not an unsupported contention — it’s reality.

However, they might value the fact that over 5 years – despite the higher sticker price – the Civic is cheaper to own than the Cobalt. At least if you believe Edmunds.com’s numbers. For anyone who doesn’t flip cars like pancakes, TCO is at least as important as the sticker price, if not more so.

I have no particular reason to regard Edmunds’ statistics as worthwhile, but they’re probably as good as any (which means “not much.”). But the TCO advantage claimed by the Honda is partially reliant on presumptions of resale value. The long-term owner who doesn’t flip cars will see this alleged differential decline with length of ownership. The long-term owner has the least to gain by the artifice of resale value.

I’ll conclude with this – every CEO of Honda has been an engineer who’s worked his way up through the company and thus knows from personal experience what they make and how they make it. They’re an engineering driven company, and it shows …

I agree. I admire Honda as a company for its operating acumen.

They ARE the reigning wizards of 4-stroke gasoline IC on the planet, making almost anything you can think of that’s powered by one. (The only thing I can think of offhand that they don’t make are snowmobiles.) That broad experience feeds into why their car engines excel.

Sure, but a Corvette 6.2L V8 in its various iterations, my Cadillac’s 4.4L supercharged, or an Ecotec Turbo 4 2.0L are equally interesting. Honda doesn’t exclusively own engine wisdom and creativity.

I’ll give Ford thumbs-up for hiring Alan Mulally – an engineer by training. But they’ll still have to earn my respect, and that’s going to take time. Given GM’s behavior, I think the sun will burn out before they ever produce a car I’d be willing to buy.

A lot of engineers make horrendous CEOs, but we’ll see about Mullaly. He’s shown some traction relative to what he inherited. As for GM’s cars….too bad. You’ll miss out on some compelling machinery.

Phil

Based on what, exactly? Trust is earned. Why should anyone just “reset” anyone’s reputation? Honda’s earned my trust the hard way.

The product mix is quite different now, better, and more is coming. As an American you will bear the consequences of being among those who will not consider a D3 vehicle regardless of its merits.

Really, a claim you keep making without any real support. You keep claiming “good,” “better,” “comparable” – I don’t see that in the reviews, the long-term tests, and so on.

When exactly is “eventually?” I’ve yet to see a production automobile by anyone on this planet that doesn’t “turn to crap eventually.”

When they figure they’ve made it over the hump and start dumbing down/costcutting the design. I’m talking about NEW cars, not about the fact that any given car that is actually driven will eventually wear out.

If you require 10 years of proof, you are effectively saying you will delegate the problem of righting Detroit to someone else.

Well, I’m sure not going to gamble my money on ‘em. Obviously, no car company is perfect – but Honda, Toyota and a few others have PROVEN to be a vastly safer bet across the board. I don’t have to ponder if a particular model in their lineup is one of the “good ones” or a model to avoid.

No one with brains looks on a mass market car as an investment – but that doesn’t mean one has to flush one’s money down the sewer, either. I have had excellent experiences with the three Hondas I’ve owned and the Honda dealerships I’ve dealt with. The last two Hondas were built here in North America (either in Alliston, ONT or E. Liberty OH). I don’t accept your unsupported premise that I’d be doing more economic good for the USA by purchasing a Mexico-built Focus (for example). I see absolutely NO reason to assume a risk for no return.

Mazda 3 and Civic lead the segment in driving dynamics, but again the real world pricing of each is a step higher than Corolla/Cobalt/Focus and the non-enthusiast majority don’t tend to value their specific advantages.

However, they might value the fact that over 5 years – despite the higher sticker price – the Civic is cheaper to own than the Cobalt. At least if you believe Edmunds.com’s numbers. For anyone who doesn’t flip cars like pancakes, TCO is at least as important as the sticker price, if not more so.

I’ll conclude with this – every CEO of Honda has been an engineer who’s worked his way up through the company and thus knows from personal experience what they make and how they make it. They’re an engineering driven company, and it shows – whether you can see it or not. They ARE the reigning wizards of 4-stroke gasoline IC on the planet, making almost anything you can think of that’s powered by one. (The only thing I can think of offhand that they don’t make are snowmobiles.) That broad experience feeds into why their car engines excel.

I’ll give Ford thumbs-up for hiring Alan Mulally – an engineer by training. But they’ll still have to earn my respect, and that’s going to take time. Given GM’s behavior, I think the sun will burn out before they ever produce a car I’d be willing to buy.

Actually, I do. When you sleep only 4 – 5 hours a night, you just don’t lose sleep over problems. I didn’t then, and I don’t now.

Phil

KixStart: “And, of course, going with a vehicle that you distrust, that costs you peace of mind. Sleeping soundly at night? Priceless.”

Ressler: “Rolling my eyes now.”

Then, clearly, you don’t remember what it’s like to struggle to pay.

Outdated notions about vehicle design, construction, reliability, quality, etc.

Are you a member of the Trickle-Down School of Economics?

Not remotely.

Your “larger social considerations” involve making sure the management and stockholders of a company that’s been providing substandard products for thirty years get a piece of the action. Are we building up the economy by ensuring that there will still be a market for yachts?

That management responsible for many mistakes gets either rewarded or not sufficiently punished if consumers act in aggregate self interest in buying domestically is an unimportant by-product of salvaging and reviving an ecosystem that benefits millions.

For the autoworker, a Toyota is as good as a Chevy. There’s, at best, a very marginal difference in the value and economic benefit to the US of a Chevy over a Toyota and it certainly depends on exactly which Toyota and Chevy you compare. An Aveo? No benefit at all to that.

For one autoworker building a Camry or a Malibu, there appears no difference. But to the economy as a whole, the amplifying effects of building the Malibu trump the truncated ripple benefits of assembling the Camry. Let’s stay focused on the aggregate consequences.

Is GM just as good in terms of long-term reliability? Better? No killer warranty, you tell me if that expresses faith in the product. 5/100 is a bad joke based on a numbers game (it’s similar to Chrysler’s recent gas price guarantee; another bad joke).

My own experience indicates GM can be “just as good” if you buy one of their more recently-engineered products. Ford even more so and no exclusively recent.

Where was this “greater social good” for GM when times were good? Were they building excellent product and backing it with excellent service? Or were they paying out the largest possible bonuses and dividends? Were they staying ahead of the curve technologically? Doing their best to reduce unsupportable strategic dependence on foreign oil? Are their vehicles shaped for best aerodynamics or styled for an aggressive look?

No question GM executive management was not continuously operating in our best interests nor theirs. We can deal with that later. In the meantime, executive incompetence or even malfeasance are not reasons for the rest of us failing to act in the greater social good voluntarily. The sins of a few score executives do not warrant abandonment of millions.

And the cost? Easily calculable… look at GM’s warranty disadvantage over Toyota and multiply it out over the life of the car and factor in the abbreviated life of the car and the resultand accelerated depreciation. The reliability disparity isn’t going to tilt in GM’s favor with age. The market realizes this and rewards GM with tanking resale value.

The market isn’t as analytically sophisticated as you surmise. Resale is perception-driven, with many intangibles acting. Warranty term might influence resale, and certainly that’s a marketing option GM can change from current policy. But it’s not the differentiating driver for most purchases.

And, of course, going with a vehicle that you distrust, that costs you peace of mind. Sleeping soundly at night? Priceless.

Rolling my eyes now.

Detroit had its chances. Lots of them. They blew them all. They refused to get the message, they refused to respond to the threat, they refused to adapt, they cynically exploited America Firsters until they were too few in number and too poor to give any more.

All of which is irrelevant to the matter of what’s best for the economy now.

Although it’s a newer design than the Prius, the Volt’s CD is significantly higher than that of the Prius. What does this tell us?

It tells us, rightly, that there’s more to designing a competitive, desirable next-technology car than Cd.

Phil

Outdated notions? Value for a dollar? Buying products from companies with proven track records? When did those go out of date? I didn’t get the memo.

Are you a member of the Trickle-Down School of Economics? Your “larger social considerations” involve making sure the management and stockholders of a company that’s been providing substandard products for thirty years get a piece of the action. Are we building up the economy by ensuring that there will still be a market for yachts? For the autoworker, a Toyota is as good as a Chevy. There’s, at best, a very marginal difference in the value and economic benefit to the US of a Chevy over a Toyota and it certainly depends on exactly which Toyota and Chevy you compare. An Aveo? No benefit at all to that.

Is GM just as good in terms of long-term reliability? Better? No killer warranty, you tell me if that expresses faith in the product. 5/100 is a bad joke based on a numbers game (it’s similar to Chrysler’s recent gas price guarantee; another bad joke).

Where was this “greater social good” for GM when times were good? Were they building excellent product and backing it with excellent service? Or were they paying out the largest possible bonuses and dividends? Were they staying ahead of the curve technologically? Doing their best to reduce unsupportable strategic dependence on foreign oil? Are their vehicles shaped for best aerodynamics or styled for an aggressive look? (*)

And the cost? Easily calculable… look at GM’s warranty disadvantage over Toyota and multiply it out over the life of the car and factor in the abbreviated life of the car and the resultand accelerated depreciation. The reliability disparity isn’t going to tilt in GM’s favor with age. The market realizes this and rewards GM with tanking resale value.

And, of course, going with a vehicle that you distrust, that costs you peace of mind. Sleeping soundly at night? Priceless.

Here’s the bottom line, Phil: Detroit had its chances. Lots of them. They blew them all. They refused to get the message, they refused to respond to the threat, they refused to adapt, they cynically exploited America Firsters until they were too few in number and too poor to give any more.

Game over. Yes, it may hurt the economy. So does buying an unsatisfactory car.

(*) – Although it’s a newer design than the Prius, the Volt’s CD is significantly higher than that of the Prius. What does this tell us?

“Racist bigot” is a loaded term. “Bigot” alone is not, especially when used in the realm of commerce. Welch’s reluctance to see people shipping dollars to Japan or any other country for something that can be bought domestically doesn’t automatically make him bigoted — just opinionated and outspoken. “Rice” isn’t enough to automatically slap him with the racist bigot label. Other terms would be. We don’t have enough to prosecute though he does look goofy using it, along with the dopey new-car-smell reference.

You’re in denial. “Rice ready?” Please return to the real world. Phone ahead and tell us what flight you’re coming in on.

Sorry, “rice-ready” just doesn’t have epithet status in popular vernacular. Lots of other terms he could have used still do. “Rice” might have epithet intent on his part, but there’s not enough uttered in this clip to tell. Look, the guy’s a little nutty in the ad, but he’s sensible in his explanation why he ran it.

Why? A car is a big purchase for most people (perhaps an XLR owner doesn’t really understand or appreciate this). An auto manufacturer gets a chance only so often to satisfy the customer. Boot that chance a few times – or even once, maybe – and the customer moves on.

I well remember when I struggled to pay for my life, so I fully relate to how big a purchase a car is for people. But when circumstances change in the offering, and larger social considerations align your self-interest with open-mindedness about a vendor who once wronged you, it’s time to put away outdated notions.

Phil

Ressler: “Yup. I listened to the Youtube clip posted above here, and frankly I do not hear any racist language in the ad excerpts ad interview exchange.”

You’re in denial. “Rice ready?” Please return to the real world. Phone ahead and tell us what flight you’re coming in on.

Ressler: “As I said, there has to be an expiration date on the future influence of a bad buyer experience.”

Why? A car is a big purchase for most people (perhaps an XLR owner doesn’t really understand or appreciate this). An auto manufacturer gets a chance only so often to satisfy the customer. Boot that chance a few times – or even once, maybe – and the customer moves on.

Human behavior isn’t going to change just because it’s inconvenient for Detroit. And this was hardly a secret kept from Detroit all these years. They coasted on a strong domestic bias for many years. That’s pretty much played out and can no longer sustain the market share they need to survive. Bad plan.

Ressler: “Even Toyota / Lexus burns a customer from time to time.”

I’m sure they do. If they don’t do it as often as Detroit, they’ll be winning their customers away. That seems to be the case.

You’re selectively assimilating my sentences. I clearly stated here and elsewhere that not all import buyers are import bigots. However, if you won’t consider a credible domestic alternative because it’s domestic and you *heard* about or “know” someone who had a bad experience, but didn’t have one yourself, your certainly trending to import bigotry.

So, why aren’t you down on Welch’s case a bit more than you are? You’re unwilling to pull the “bigot” trigger on a guy who’s made an overtly racist stataement. Strangely, you seem all full of love and understanding and compassion:

“He’s certainly frustrated and angry, which prompts people to say all sorts of things that might not reflect who they are.”

Going back to my original posit of the term “import bigot” over a year ago here, you will note that I have not specifically directed the term to individuals. We know each other through this forum and mostly not beyond that; haven’t met; most people don’t even post under their own name. I don’t know enough about individuals to say whether they are bigots or not. But I can and do know enough about an aggregated behavior to describe it and name it. I also know enough about some individuals in the physical world who are import bigots and freely admit it. But Welch, I don’t know him. We have a snippet of him in a paid outburst. As I said, he might be a bigot (a kind much worse than car origin bigotry, which is not really a moral issue at all). But it also may not be legitimate to extrapolate the full implications of his advertising outburst to the man in toto.

I don’t know what “…rice-ready, not road-ready…” means in the slightest, nor is labeling the Asian compact FWD customizer sub-culture “ricers” a sign of bigotry by itself. It’s often the benign equivalent of “…Kids, these days…” It means different things in different contexts of expression. But there is a legitimate idea threaded through Welch’s if-you-buy-a-toyota-and-lose-your-job-and-can’t-make-your-payments-don’t-come-crying-to-me rant, which isn’t bigoted in the slightest.

I wouldn’t have used this as a marketing angle, and in any expression of the legitimate idea, would have expressed it differently (and have).

You know, Welch didn’t go home one evening, have just one more Scotch than is good for his judgement, dial up some radio talk show and let loose for a minute or two, venting a little, in an unplanned and unpremedidated way. He ordered up, recorded, almost certainly listened to (at least for a sound check), released and paid for a racist radio spot and then apparently didn’t call up when the first one hit the airwaves and pull the ad. Nope, he likes the message and he’s staying on message.

Sure, his business is down and my heart pumps purple Kool-Aid for him…

Yup. I listened to the Youtube clip posted above here, and frankly I do not hear any racist language in the ad excerpts ad interview exchange. He referred to “Japan” not “Japs.” The “rice” reference is to a car not a people, and it’s in a context widely accepted in popular vernacular without protest from the Asian community, and I say that from a seat in California. Cheese-eaters, bagel-eaters, rice….it’s always the food, isn’t it? This is not remotely like established, venal, and discredited racial epithets. Look, today in car subcultures, many caucasian kids are “Ricers.” So, no….I don’t know Welch well enough to know whether he’s a bigot. I do suspect that if his exact words heard above were spoken by someone without a southern accent, he’d be receiving less criticism.

His premises in the interview snippets are sensible: We have to take more responsibility for our own economy. Domestic manufacturing is good. Bailouts won’t work if buyers won’t fairly step up and banks won’t loan. He has no reason to order more cars if he can’t sell what he has.

But for an Average Joe, a $3200 transmission repair (maybe times two) or some other automotive financial setback… that’s gonna hurt them, too, probably worse than the hurt Welch is getting at his Ford dealership. And our buddy Welch has almost certainly leaned across the service desk any number of times and told the customer that he was just plain out of luck in those circumstances. And I’ll bet in any number of cases, he low-balled a customer with an immobile vehicle, ran him up a nice tidy new 7 year loan on an equally likely to self-destruct vehicle, sent him bleeding back into the street and then fixed and resold the incoming hulk at a profit.

Yup, a $3200 transmission repair hurts. Nobody, least of all me, is advocating someone should have to sustain that. As for Welch, to be fair you have no idea what kind of auto dealer or businessman he is, neither good nor bad so any commentary about what you’d bet on is just noise.

But, for some reason, it’s not OK with Phil Ressler for these Average Joes to remember that experience (never mind the advanced idea of learning from their neighbor’s unfortunate experience) and, likely enough, the ill treatment and inconvenience that went along with it. No, by God, they’ve got to get back in there and give Ol’ Henry or The General or Dodge’s descendants another opportunity to ream them again.

As I said, there has to be an expiration date on the future influence of a bad buyer experience. When enough changes in product and business practices, it’s time to put past grudges aside. Even Toyota / Lexus burns a customer from time to time.

No, by God, those people are Import Bigots and they are acting against their Best Interests and must be Set Straight!

Yes, some of them are

Phil

So, why aren’t you down on Welch’s case a bit more than you are? You’re unwilling to pull the “bigot” trigger on a guy who’s made an overtly racist stataement. Strangely, you seem all full of love and understanding and compassion:

“He’s certainly frustrated and angry, which prompts people to say all sorts of things that might not reflect who they are.”

You know, Welch didn’t go home one evening, have just one more Scotch than is good for his judgement, dial up some radio talk show and let loose for a minute or two, venting a little, in an unplanned and unpremedidated way. He ordered up, recorded, almost certainly listened to (at least for a sound check), released and paid for a racist radio spot and then apparently didn’t call up when the first one hit the airwaves and pull the ad. Nope, he likes the message and he’s staying on message.

Sure, his business is down and my heart pumps purple Kool-Aid for him…

But for an Average Joe, a $3200 transmission repair (maybe times two) or some other automotive financial setback… that’s gonna hurt them, too, probably worse than the hurt Welch is getting at his Ford dealership. And our buddy Welch has almost certainly leaned across the service desk any number of times and told the customer that he was just plain out of luck in those circumstances. And I’ll bet in any number of cases, he low-balled a customer with an immobile vehicle, ran him up a nice tidy new 7 year loan on an equally likely to self-destruct vehicle, sent him bleeding back into the street and then fixed and resold the incoming hulk at a profit.

But, for some reason, it’s not OK with Phil Ressler for these Average Joes to remember that experience (never mind the advanced idea of learning from their neighbor’s unfortunate experience) and, likely enough, the ill treatment and inconvenience that went along with it. No, by God, they’ve got to get back in there and give Ol’ Henry or The General or Dodge’s descendants another opportunity to ream them again.

No, by God, those people are Import Bigots and they are acting against their Best Interests and must be Set Straight!

Hey, Phil, get real.

Yes, but just not as many as are supported by purchase of an F150, Silverado or RAM.

And I can repatriate more dollars by shopping for value in a car and plowing my savings into buying stock in successful foreign automakers.

You’re not repatriating dollars if you just buy and sell stocks. You repatriate if you buy, hold and take dividends. Let us know if that’s how you roll.

Now, like you, I could go on for hours but the bottom line remains, Detroit has treated too many people too badly for too long.

You’ll have better luck lobbying the Congress, where our representatives seem willing to consider using other people’s money for a dubious bailout of Detroit.

True, the D3 treated many people poorly for too many years. Many is a fair statement. It’s not “most” nor “all.” There are good reasons to put lingering resentment aside.

However, the groupthink represented by your suggestion that arguing a different point of view is a waste of time falls on deaf ears. Change in behavior begins by individuals arguing the unpopular. Further, content on TTAC isn’t merely directed to this crowd. Search engines ensure that point of view expressed here finds wider distribution.

Perhaps I can help. As I am familiar with Mr. Ressler’s arguments, allow me to briefly summarize them:

Unsurprisingly, you’ve misrepresented every one of them.

-Consumer Reports, JD Power, etc. are irrelevant, except in those few instances that they show Detroit quality to be equal. Otherwise, don’t use them, they are bad, bad and bad.

CR and JDP aren’t bad. Their data is interesting. It’s just not actionable. I’ve done fine ignoring both for decades. Neither ensures you won’t get a lemon from any manufacturer, in any case. And the differences between rankings are progressively narrower to the point of being meaningless to your personal experience in the early 21st century.

-Only data that supports Detroit can be used in these discussions. All other data isn’t “holistic”, which is apparently defined as anything that contradicts Mr. Ressler.

If a data source lacks credibility for me, it is equally unactionable irrespective of whether the data supports or denigrates the D3.

-Your personal anecdotes about bad Detroit cars are irrelevant. Only positive anecdotes count; anything else shows you to be a bigot.

Your personal anecdotes about any experience good or bad are just that — personal anecdotes. I suggest their influence on future decisions should have an expiration date.

-You need to buy a “Detroit” vehicle, even if it is made in Mexico, Korea or Timbuktu. Workers who have jobs in Kentucky and Ohio building Toyotas and Hondas don’t really count. (Maybe the jobs are fake, I don’t know.)

You don’t need to buy a car at all. I’ve never recommended an Aveo, by the way. My point on NAFTA production is that the economic leverage is murky and the translplant product made in a US factory isn’t the default winner when buying on that criterion in the US. Further, the Toyota job in Kentucky doesn’t fully offset what was lost by the D3 job deleted.

-There is a Detroit vehicle that will serve your needs and make you do cartwheels, and if you don’t agree, you’re a “bigot.”

More often than import bigots admit, there is a competitive D3 product. Drop bias that inhibits you from honestly considering them. That’s it. Not all import brand buyers are import bigots, btw.

-Yet a car dealer who panders to anti-Asian sentiment isn’t a bigot. He’s misunderstood, and wounded, and just having a bad day. If he’s so upset that he goes home and burns crosses, just buy a car from him, hopefully he’ll feel better.

Actually, I didn’t say Welch isn’t a bigot. I said he may or may not be but he is certainly frustrated, angry and making an argument crudely. His appeal is inappropriate.

Wow. Those Mazdas I see everyday must be a figment of my imagination.

It’s in the sales figures. More people in the segment don’t buy Mazda 3 than do. It’s not even the segment volume leader with a plurality, however good it is. In fact the compact segment as a whole isn’t leading the market, either.

Phil

“All you TERRIBLE, SHORT-SIGHTED, STUPID PEOPLE! Drive here RIGHT NOW and give me your money! And then give me your money AGAIN when your transmission falls out!”

His reasons for buying domestic are altogether unconvincing and reek of racist elitism and whiny “sore loser” complaints. …you know what? I kind of feel like I’m listening to an auditory version of the Autoblog “comments” section. o_0 Creeeepy!