Toyota spokesman responds in the Detroit News, asking “How do you tell a worker in Kentucky who’s producing a Toyota that his job is worth less than another American autoworker’s?” How indeed. And we thought the bailout was about fighting racism.
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Socially responsible purchases are a luxury. No one’s buying luxuries these days.
I, for example, don’t plan on buying a new car anytime soon; in my case that would be a stupid thing to do. Sorry, America.
it’s been said many times before, but what the heck: the vast majority of those toyotas, hondas, and hyundais being bought are built in america, while those ford fusions, for example, are being built in mexico. buying those imports may not be helping the big 2.25 executives, but it is helping american workers.
btw what does “rice-ready” mean? biggest “huh?” of the day.
Jesus Christ.
So let’s bring back anyone with a pulse loans so he can continue his standard of living and let America continue down the shitter.
I guess I should avoid food shopping at Walmart and buy a Mustang from this guy instead this weekend. You know, impulse-buy an auto over food. Oh wait, I’d have to drive there in my Honda to do so. Crap! I’ve already failed!
I’m loving the whole line about “If you buy a Toyota and lose your job and can’t make a payment, don’t come whining to me.” What, like if I bought a Fusion from this huckleberry and couldn’t make payments, he’d welcome my whining and help me out for the good of America? Please.
Ok, let’s just do a rundown of where some certain cars are built for you Mr. Welch.
Chrysler PT Cruiser: Mexico.
Toyota Tundra: Texas.
Chevy/GMC GMT900 trucks: among a few plants, including plants in Canada, the US, and Mexico.
Honda Accord: Ohio.
Ford Fusion: Mexico.
Subaru Legacy: Indiana.
Chrysler Crossfire: DEUTSCHLAND UBER ALLES.
Hyundai Sante Fe: Montgomery, Alabama.
Chevrolet Aveo: Korea. By Daewoo.
Mercedes-Benz GL, ML, and R class: Alabama.
Jeep Liberty: Ohio. Oh, and Egypt. And Venezuala.
What I’m trying to say here, OC Welch… is that people like you are the reason the rest of the world thinks America is full of fat, burger-munching ignorant racists. Please die in a car fire.
“….this is America and we need to act like it’s America…”
True Americans doesn’t whine and bitch about a competitor, it builds a better product/service.
This guy should keep his mouth firmly shut. If the whole of Europe (except, Germany, Spain and Belgium) decided to buy cars which helped prop their economies up (i.e supported jobs there), then Ford would have gone out of business a long time ago…….
Now this is interesting.
So my buying a Honda or Toyota that’s actually built in America by American workers is not helping America? And I suppose buying a Focus or Cobalt that’s built in Mexico or…wait, an Astra that’s built in Europe is helping America any better?
And if I buy an F-150 and can’t make payments, you gonna help me out? Can I come whining to you about it?
This guy sounds like the essence of ignorance.
Insane. This guy isn’t doing Ford any favors. Bigoted dumb asses like this schlub are one of many reasons why some consumers stay FAR AWAY from ‘Merican products.
Go play in traffic, welch.
Oh, Mrb00st, you can add the Hyundai Sonata (Alabama) to that list.
Why do I hear Dueling Banjos playing in my head while I listen to that clip?
It’s guys like this that make it easy to say Buh-Bye to most of the local car dealers.
“Rice ready”? What in hell does that mean? Does this mean my Volvo is “meatball ready”?
Dont you all think that the Dealer is a old style Dealer who thinks if its not a US Brand, then its no good?
He appeals to a lot of uneducated people who dont do there homework when they decide to purchase a vehicle, such a shame eh?
Maybe our lovely South Carolina Ford dealer can explain to those South Carolina workers who build BMWs like the X5 why the product of their labor is not road ready…
Mrb00st :
Jeep Liberty: Ohio. Oh, and Egypt. And Venezuala.
Firstly it is Venezuela.
Second, I doubt the local Chrysler plant has the volume to export to the US. As a matter of fact, other than possibly Colombia, Ecuador I doubt any Cherokee (your Liberty) gets exported.
Can this dealership be put on “Deathwatch” so we know exactly when it fails.
A German car would be schnitzel-ready I guess? What would an American car be?
True Americans doesn’t whine and bitch about a competitor, it builds a better product/service.
Good point, Katie. I think Americans voting with their wallet should’ve been just as clear a sign to car companies than Americans vocalizing “build us something better.” Everyone always gets on GM changing the names of their products too much, but the new Malibu was a big WTH in why wasn’t the name changed? It might be competitive or better, but everyone associates the name with “semi-capable rental car” from years of it serving that role.
Smart move…the man just ensured that no Toyota or Honda owners will ever come to his dealership, no matter how much Ford improves its vehicles.
In his own ham-handed way, Welch has a point. But the crude and dishonorable way he makes his point undermines his ability to persuade.
Of course, the reflexive response here is to point out that many Toyotas are built in the US while a Ford Fusion is shipped from Mexico. Let’s correct that: Many Toyotas are assembled in the US, and the Ford Fusion is likewise assembled in Mexico, a NAFTA country. Similarly, that Mexican-assembled Fusion takes pressure off our southern border while supporting the economic viability of a US headquartered company, and the US jobs it generates.
Assembling Toyotas in the US doesn’t carry the same economic leverage as US companies designing, making components and building cars in the US. Yes, economic conditions derive from complex dependencies, and if you buy a Toyota — even an American-assembled one with US content — and lose your job, don’t go crying to Mr. Welch, for he’ll owe you no sympathy.
With a car as mediocre and uninspiring as a Camry, Toyota has no actual product edge over GM and Ford in what is presently a substantial vehicle category, so there is neiher penalty to the consumer for choosing a competitive US brand product, nor does the US assembly of the Toyota make a choice in its favor economically benign. We have a market of free choice, which I certainly don’t want to disturb, but people have to face facts that there are material consequences to their purchasing decisions and if those consequences are either ignored long enough or incrementally accumulated to sufficient quantity, the country pays.
US assembly of vehicles that are designed elsewhere, by companies that roll up profits and command global resources, including market cap, is enough to mitigate the politics of runaway imports, but it’s fantasy to believe that Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW or Mercedes assembly of vehicles here in the US fully compensates for the wealth leverage of lost market share by GM, Ford and Chrysler that transplants displace.
How do you tell a Toyota worker in Kentucky that his job is worth less than a GM worker’s in Michigan? Straightforwardly. I’m glad that the Toyota worker has a job as opposed to not having one. And his job exists due to demand Toyota generated. It is buyers that have to understand their contribution to the problem at hand. Yes, the unfortunate reality of the situation is that the country will be stronger as a whole if GM wins back enough market share to instigate more hiring on its US payroll due to, perhaps, rising Malibu sales, at the expense of a layoff at Toyota in Kentucky or elsewhere due to Camry sales lost to Chevy.
Welch’s inelegant outburst is an inchoate expression of an idea that people know intrinsically to be true, but mostly would like to believe otherwise.
Phil
rjones:
Nope, sadly no meatballs with your Ford-built Volvo. You have to go to Ikea for those tasty treats.
American owned companies should get preferential treatment in their home country. Every other country who has a viable manufacturing base does the same thing.
It is as simple as that – home field advantage.
I sent him an email and wanted to know why the Fusion I just test drove smelled like burritos and re-fried beans.
OC Welch
Tel : 843-288-0100
Fax: 843-288-0105
Email: o-welch@dealeremail.com
A stupid patriot buys a new mediocre (none of their cars are best in class), rapidly depreciating Ford from an asshole dealer.
A smart patriot keeps their current car and buys Honda stock (dollar cost averaging through the recession).
RayH: Big-3 cars are welfare ready.
Phil Ressler: GM is moving design and engineering to South Korea and India as fast as it can, and Ford’s path to viability is to build European designed and engineered cars here. Ford’s pathetic-ness forced it to sell most of its stake in Mazda. Now because of Ford’s stupidity more money from every Mazda sale goes back to Japan.
TheImportSpecialist: It smells like burritos and re-fried beans because one of his reject salesmen borrowed the car and took it to Taco Bell; it’s not fair to blame the Mexican autoworkers that built the car.
@Phil
Sure, consumers have to live with the consequences of their purchases. Granted. But how does that absolve Detroit of the responsibility to live with the consequences of their products?
“With a car as mediocre and uninspiring as a Camry, Toyota has no actual product edge over GM and Ford in what is presently a substantial vehicle category, so there is neiher penalty to the consumer for choosing a competitive US brand product, nor does the US assembly of the Toyota make a choice in its favor economically benign.”
Granting some level of product fungibility between brands (which may or may not exist… all mid-size cars are equally boring to me), I don’t see how you can conjure up dire economic consequences for not buying domestic. Toyota and GM both produce, design and engineer vehicles around the world. I can buy Toyota stock and share in their profits no matter where I live. Where’s the malignancy?
Your thesis that “the country will be stronger as a whole if GM wins back enough market share to instigate more hiring on its US payroll” may or may not be true, but frankly it doesn’t matter. Proclaiming the nationalist intentions of multinational corporations makes you look like a sucker. Ford, GM and Chrysler look out for themselves and do business where it makes them money. Period. Their recent patriotic tone comes from a desire for American tax money, and nothing else. If their lost market share is bad for the country, why blame the consumers?
As for Welch, he chose to to sell Fords and now he’s whining to us. Says it all, doesn’t it?
Our family workhorse, a V6 Accord, was assembled in Ohio. It has the new car smell, 5 years and 65,000 miles later.
rjones :
December 10th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
“Rice ready”? What in hell does that mean? Does this mean my Volvo is “meatball ready”?
Lingonberry ready and arrives in flat pack boxes.
GM is moving design and engineering to South Korea and India as fast as it can, and Ford’s path to viability is to build European designed and engineered cars here. Ford’s pathetic-ness forced it to sell most of its stake in Mazda. Now because of Ford’s stupidity more money from every Mazda sale goes back to Japan.
First, this is non-sequitur to my point. GM is global and some production will be moved closer to points of consumption, and some will move to areas where production economics are more favorable. BUT what GM has been doing in the absence of help and under current management may not be the same as what GM does in the context of help, oversight and a change of executive management. The point remains, GM and Ford make competitive US built products that carry more domestic economic leverage than does a US-assembled Camry. Ford’s use of global platforms nevertheless supports thousands of US headquartered jobs that are undermined or lost by transplant gains that do not replace them 1:1 nor in equal compensatory value.
Phil
Just tried stuffing a burrito (authentic burrito from taco truck) into a Ford Fusion that had run out of gas, and it started right up.
Now I get it.
Perhaps this explains why a Caddy DTS is so fat yet empty, or why the Tacoma, Tundra, Accord, and Camry have all been packing on the pounds over the years since they started making them in the ‘States…all those Big Macs! The Honda Fit won’t be so fit once they make’em in Ohio…have you seen the locals in Cleveland lately? Uh-oh, Honda Fit LTD here we come!
Toyota spokesman responds in the Detroit News, asking “How do you tell a worker in Kentucky who’s producing a Toyota that his job is worth less than another American autoworker’s?” …
That’s easy. Just point him to http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=1. The article states, in so many words, that “General Motors, Ford and Chrysler workers make significantly more than their counterparts at Toyota, Honda and Nissan plants in this country. Last year’s concessions by the United Automobile Workers, which mostly apply to new workers, will not change that anytime soon.”
The Toyota worker is being paid less than his counterparts at the Detroit 3, so his job is obviously worth less to the company that employs him. Simple, no?
Sure, consumers have to live with the consequences of their purchases. Granted. But how does that absolve Detroit of the responsibility to live with the consequences of their products?
Detroit isn’t absolved of their end, but what’s the point of me using my time to pile on Detroit criticism here? What is usually lacking in the TTAC community response is holistic perspective. I’m filling in.
Toyota and GM both produce, design and engineer vehicles around the world. I can buy Toyota stock and share in their profits no matter where I live. Where’s the malignancy?
Toyota’s market cap is participatively driven by investors, sure. But Toyota is not based in the US. Its resources both direct and implied by that market cap are controlled by Toyota HQ, not Toyota USA. Toyota’s highest-value engineering and executive positions are in Japan. Their core domain expertise is in Japan. Their cash reserves and market cap give them power to artificially undermine competitors, just as the EU argued against Microsoft. It may not be openly malignant to buy a Toyota in the US, but it’s fiction that doing so doesn’t carry a net domestic economic cost when competitive domestic production exists as an alternative.
Proclaiming the nationalist intentions of multinational corporations makes you look like a sucker. Ford, GM and Chrysler look out for themselves and do business where it makes them money. Period. Their recent patriotic tone comes from a desire for American tax money, and nothing else. If their lost market share is bad for the country, why blame the consumers?
First, I’m really not concerned about whether someone here perceives me “a sucker.” A lot of life is lived by deciding what problems you want not to be part of irrespective of majority. Of course the D3 look out for themselves, and that self-interest can lead them back to US production as shipping costs rise (notwithstanding the current energy lull) and labor costs migrate to mean. Fact is, if people in the US return to D3 products, the net *gain* economically to the country will be readily felt. US consumption of competitive US and NAFTA production by US HQ’d companies has more domestic economic amplification than the alternatives. But they have to earn it.
What you miss is that I am not blaming consumers exclusively. But consumer behavior that reflexively embraces a mediocre Camry over a current Malibu is part of the problem, and if people truly understood their self-interest, a Ford Taurus, Chevy Malibu, Saturn Aura or even a Cobalt or Focus might seem compelling compared to the transplant and import alternatives. When you look at the sheer numbers of mediocre car models that are bought from any maker, the notion of market wisdom fades quickly.
Phil
I’m glad that the Toyota worker has a job as opposed to not having one. And his job exists due to demand Toyota generated. It is buyers that have to understand their contribution to the problem at hand.
And therein lies the difference. To you, for a rational consumer to choose what he percieves as a superior product over an inferior one is a “problem.” To me, it’s just common sense.
I called it. The ugly xenophobia against the imports was going to happen, and if any of the Big 2.5 declare chapter 11, it’s only going to get worse.
I’d better call Allstate and see if my coverage includes jerkasses taking a sledgehammer to my Civic, or my mom’s 350Z Roadster…
Reason number 4,365,246 not to buy American…
To you, for a rational consumer to choose what he percieves as a superior product over an inferior one is a “problem.” To me, it’s just common sense.
To the contrary. We’re in the realm in this example where the Toyota product is neither superior to D2 alternatives, nor the rational purchase, and that’s even before one expands their buyer conciousness to consider the macro social and economic context. We are beginning to see the consequences of fetishizing automotive interior plastics, for example. What are small differences worth? Well, now you can see and decide.
Phil
That’s it – I’m hiding in a Pontiac Vibe until this all blows over.
To the contrary. We’re in the realm in this example where the Toyota product is neither superior to D2 alternatives, nor the rational purchase, and that’s even before one expands their buyer conciousness to consider the macro social and economic context. We are beginning to see the consequences of fetishizing automotive interior plastics, for example. What are small differences worth? Well, now you can see and decide.
Actually, its the entire car…if you fetishize compact, reliable automobiles that get good gas mileage and drive with some spirit at all. Or a RWD sedan that costs less than $50k. Or an actual hybrid car.
I can’t really think of a reply for the “rice ready” comment, but I’m sure it got a laugh at the last cross burning that “O.C.” attended. BTW…what exactly does “O.C.” stand for? Anyone??
I can enlighten “O.C.” about his concern that the Japanese cars don’t have that “new car smell” that he is so familiar with.
As a plastics engineer with a large Japanese manufacturer I feel qualified to comment on this.
The dashboard “pleather”on a new car is exactly that. It starts out as a slurry (picture a huge milkshake and you’ll get the picture) To keep all this great stuff in a liquid injectable form several really potent chemicals (benzines, isocyanates etc.) are mixed in with the plastic compounds and color dyes. This mixture is then injected under high pressure into a mold. It is cooked for 30 seconds and presto…..you have a dashboard covering which can then be stretched and shrunk around the dashboard core.
The problem with this process is that the benzines and cyanates are not totally released from the material and can take weeks and sometimes months (depending on ventilation) to release into the atmosphere.
Recognizing this my company put in place an extra step in the process which is a reheat of the full dash assembly within a well ventilated enclosure. This effectively burns off the trapped solvents and cuts the “new car smell” to a fraction of what it would have been.
Ford knows about this but because of the extra cost chooses to skip this step and let nature take its course.
So…”O.C.”, when you are basking in the aroma of a brand new Ford, that euphoria you are feeling is nothing other then the effects of the solvents releasing themselves from the dashboard and working on your questionable cerebral cortex. You’re HIGH buddy……..enjoy!!
Mr. Welch has used imports for sale on the company website.
Let’s be thankful that not all of the manufactures operating inside the USA and CANADA need a bailout.
I consider myself very car savvy and the last thing I would purchase would be a product produced by the Big 2.8.
To the contrary. We’re in the realm in this example where the Toyota product is neither superior to D2 alternatives, nor the rational purchase, and that’s even before one expands their buyer conciousness to consider the macro social and economic context.
You missed the point entirely, Phil. You claim that the D3 products are now “equal” to the transplants, but the market says differently.
Even assuming arguendo that a Camry is the equal of a Malibu, should the fact that the Camry is likely to be worth more at resale time not be considered as a factor when buying? It is perfectly rational to pay slightly more for the transplant that is only likely to lose 20% of its value to depreciation as opposed to the domestic that is likely to lose 30% or more.
And as for the “macro social and economic context” as someone who doesn’t live in the rust belt why should I feel any more loyalty to the Detroit auto worker than to the Kentucky or California auto worker? Why is it in our interest as a nation to protect the former at the expense of the latter? You state that it benefits the US to have a strong domestic auto industry as if it is a self-justifying argument but I’m not seeing it.
If I choose between two US built cars and buy the one that I perceive will give me more value, is that not the essence of a good economic exchange? And if one wears a Honda badge and the other a Chevy badge, what difference does that make?
You argue that the domestics employ more Americans and pay them a higher wage – isn’t that part of the problem? A bloated, inefficient management and an overpaid workforce are not going to bring the D3 back from the dead unless they can brainwash customers into buying their products, which won’t happen as long as they have an alternative.
Phil: I think the fact that the domestics have survived as long as they have on their pre-CTS and Malibu products proves that Americans did favor American products despite their (now admitted) shortcomings. The problem is that Americans did follow your argument, bought American cars out of patriotism or “enlightened self interest” as you portray it, and got burned. Now that the Malibu is “as good as” a Camry, they simply don’t trust GM.
I’m with Lawmonkey about laying low in the Pontiac Vibe. Its the ultimate “domestic” sleeper with Corolla reliability.
Mr. Ressler, is there some reason why you haven’t found a way to work the word “bigot” into your posts on this thread? If there was a place where the word would be done some justice, it would seem that it would be about this dealership, where the racism is palpable.
How come those new Toyota’s don’t smell like new cars???
Because they and the other Japanese auto manufacturers have spent MILLIONS to cut the outgassing from the upholstery, carpets, dash, trim, and everything else inside the car.
Maybe, Mr. Welsch, you’ve been sitting in your new Fords with the windows up too long.
y2kdcar :
December 10th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Toyota spokesman responds in the Detroit News, asking “How do you tell a worker in Kentucky who’s producing a Toyota that his job is worth less than another American autoworker’s?” …
That’s easy. Just point him to http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=1. The article states, in so many words, that “General Motors, Ford and Chrysler workers make significantly more than their counterparts at Toyota, Honda and Nissan plants in this country. Last year’s concessions by the United Automobile Workers, which mostly apply to new workers, will not change that anytime soon.”
The Toyota worker is being paid less than his counterparts at the Detroit 3, so his job is obviously worth less to the company that employs him. Simple, no?
That’s not true. Your average Toyota worker makes about the same as your average GM worker. Stats that say otherwise include the pension and medical costs of 80 year guys who retired from GM during the Reagan administration. GM’s sales have been shrinking, so they have more retirees per active worker than Toyota, who’s sales have been growing. Plus, those stats only include workers in the US; that is, the pension of a similiar 80 year old retiree living in Toyota City, Japan isn’t counted.
It’s an interesting strategy. Tell import buyers that they’re bad people to try to make them your customer.
People like this is why I will never ever buy a D3 automobile.
Actually, its the entire car…if you fetishize compact, reliable automobiles that get good gas mileage and drive with some spirit at all. Or a RWD sedan that costs less than $50k. Or an actual hybrid car.
All of which does not have enough volume to sustain a car company in the US. The meat of the market is FWD sedans below $50K and trucks (still). We can easily address the fringes plus the compact market in progressively better fashion once the heart of the market is buying.
You claim that the D3 products are now “equal” to the transplants, but the market says differently.
Markets are reality, like it or not. But markets are also frequently wrong.
…should the fact that the Camry is likely to be worth more at resale time not be considered as a factor when buying? It is perfectly rational to pay slightly more for the transplant that is only likely to lose 20% of its value to depreciation as opposed to the domestic that is likely to lose 30% or more.
And it’s also perfectly rational to come to the conclusion that a retained value difference does not sufficiently offset the larger costs of allowing it to drive an anti-domestic decision. No, resale value is not relevant today. Cars plunge in retained value when you buy them and as you use them. If you keep a car through its payment period, or for a nominally “spent” mileage of 100,000 miles, the retained value differences are relatively small. What’s the point of worrying about a minor difference in resale value, if destruction of domestic manufacturing raises your taxes, amplifies social disorder and causes you to take losses in other ways? Resale value is a red herring. The percentage of people in the market that pay any attention to this is small, though perhaps such people are disproportionately represented here.
Further, resale value differences are purely driven by perception. The used car market is not a set-price market. Americans have a choice about the value they assign to used cars. Currently, people here *believe* a domestic used car is worth less than an equivalent from Honda, Toyota and some others and therefore it is, because they believe this belief will persist. But if a combination of better cars (already in market and coming) from the D3 and a change of conciousness on the part of consumers about what comprises “cool,” “desirable,” and “smart,” all of this can change. It’s not like you can make any case whatsoever that the market psychology awarding more retained value to a Toyota than to a Chevrolet or Ford has any rational underpinning whatsoever. It’s just perception.
And as for the “macro social and economic context” as someone who doesn’t live in the rust belt why should I feel any more loyalty to the Detroit auto worker than to the Kentucky or California auto worker? Why is it in our interest as a nation to protect the former at the expense of the latter? You state that it benefits the US to have a strong domestic auto industry as if it is a self-justifying argument but I’m not seeing it.
In the United States, states have economies primarily in a statistical sense corresponding to their political borders. There are tax implications to this, for instance. But on the global stage, the problems of an American in Ohio are as pertinent to a Californian as are those of an Arizonian and even a fellow Californian. Same with the opportunities and successes. All of the US benefits from California’s innovation engines in Silicon Valley and Southern California, for example. All of the US benefits from agricultural prowess and exports from Iowa and Minnesota. All of the US benefitted from a robust domestic automotive manufacturing sector. All of the US suffers its decline, as well, but the concentration of pain is closest to the centers of destruction.
Now, I don’t want that Toyota worker in Kentucky to be unemployed, but if he were instead employed by GM, for example, his job would have greater amplifying effects throughout the domestic economy. The point is, anyone who believes that transplants merely *assembling* cars in the US has the same economic value as GM, Ford and Chrysler functioning as full-spectrum automotive manufacturers within our borders is sadly mistaken, and the persistence of this erroneous belief makes it more convenient to rationalize buying an Accord, or to operate to bias in purchasing rather than consider the true costs of a decision to buy, say, a Camry over a Malibu or Taurus.
If I choose between two US built cars and buy the one that I perceive will give me more value, is that not the essence of a good economic exchange?
It’s a good economic exchange transactionally. If in fact you rejected an equally good domestic choice, it’s a bad exchange macro-economically, socially and politically. The “US built” Toyota is not the same economically as the US built Chevrolet.
And if one wears a Honda badge and the other a Chevy badge, what difference does that make?
See above. And above that. And above that. Amply covered.
You argue that the domestics employ more Americans and pay them a higher wage – isn’t that part of the problem? A bloated, inefficient management and an overpaid workforce are not going to bring the D3 back from the dead unless they can brainwash customers into buying their products, which won’t happen as long as they have an alternative.
Actually, I said nothing about domestics paying same workers higher wages. The D3 do employ more Americans, including many high-value HQ jobs that Toyota doesn’t bring here. More to the point, the D3 job has more non-D3 domestic jobs tied to it. You see, even if the labor pools of GM, Toyota and Tata had the same compensation, the economic amplification of the GM job in the US exceeds that of a transplant. Nothing about what I suggest here supports any notion that bloat or inefficiency should continue. No. But the customer side of the equation has to come to terms with the fact that *not* rewarding product competitiveness by the D3 where it exists, has deleterious consequences to the economics and social circumstances of that purchasing individual.
I think the fact that the domestics have survived as long as they have on their pre-CTS and Malibu products proves that Americans did favor American products despite their (now admitted) shortcomings. The problem is that Americans did follow your argument, bought American cars out of patriotism or “enlightened self interest” as you portray it, and got burned. Now that the Malibu is “as good as” a Camry, they simply don’t trust GM.
Conjecture. Those cars sold for a variety of reasons, and competing cars were still improving. Some were sold because the deal was right. Others because the dealership location was right or the buyer had a continuing relationship with said dealer. Some were simply better cars than their reputation. Some were surely bought because they were American. Neither every Toyota nor GM car was bought solely on the merits nor rejected solely on the liabilities. We all know the genesis of the element of trust or lack of it. My point is that this lack of trust in the face of vastly-improved products is dramatically costing Americans who nurse their D3 grudges, in other ways.
…is there some reason why you haven’t found a way to work the word “bigot” into your posts on this thread? If there was a place where the word would be done some justice, it would seem that it would be about this dealership, where the racism is palpable.
I’ve already said I’m not defending his delivery or articulation. Welch may or may not be a bigot. He’s certainly frustrated and angry, which prompts people to say all sorts of things that might not reflect who they are. If I give him benefit of doubt, he’s crude and divisive. If I assume the worst, his cultural resentment has gotten the best of him. In any case, I don’t condone the ad as it is expressed, but underlying his frustration, resentment, bigotry or whatever it is, there is a serious point that he makes hard to take seriously.
Phil
Geotpf :
… Your average Toyota worker makes about the same as your average GM worker. Stats that say otherwise include the pension and medical costs of 80 year guys who retired from GM during the Reagan administration. …
Go back to my original post, follow the link, and read the article in the New York Times. The Times backed the retiree pension and medical costs out of the GM wage scale and concluded that there was still a $10 gap between what the General pays its hourly workers and what Toyota pays. Most of the gap, but not all, is in benefits for active hourly employees.
Phil, on top of the previous critiques, you’re also ignoring the fact that not all Toyotas are simply “assembled” in the US. A number of Toyota models are designed and engineered in the States. Examples include the Tundra, Sequoia, and Avalon, all of which are products specific to America. Other US models have distinct US sheetmetal, implying additional design input from North America, and cars like the Camry (which is no longer sold in parts of Europe, and is not that big a seller in Japan) is clearly engineered for American needs, with, one suspects, American input.
Further, your claims that the quality gap has vanished altogether are still not borne out by CR and JDP long-term tests, as of 2008.
Your assumption of NAFTA production is also flawed. Do you honestly believe, as the cost gap between USA and LDCs continues to grow, that GM wouldn’t move production even further afield? Perhaps to China? Be serious. More American market share for GM will not guarantee any American jobs, except in the design studio and engineering office, and we have seen that several of the Asian transplants already do the same.
Finally, anyone who calls the Chevy Cobalt “compelling”, in any context, loses all his points.
@Phil:
>Actually, its the entire car…if you fetishize
>compact, reliable automobiles that get good gas
>mileage and drive with some spirit at all. Or a RWD
>sedan that costs less than $50k. Or an actual
>hybrid car.
All of which does not have enough volume to sustain a car company in the US.
Perhaps not – but at least Honda, Toyota and others are actually capable of making a profit on Civics and Corollas. Servicing that part of the market isn’t a drain on their profitability, unlike the companies that were sucked into the SUV Sinkhole.
You’re entitled to consider anything you like when you make your purchases – but don’t forget that the D2.8 have created, through their actions and their products, a sizeable segment of the auto market who will not even consider them. I’m one of them.
I will grant that perhaps they’ve improved since the last time I was treated poorly by one of their “service” departments – but why on earth should I take a chance on them, when I know my local Honda dealer considers the service-department experience a key component in getting me to buy my next car from them?
Given the D2.8’s horrific reputation – while the Malibu might be an OK car now, I wouldn’t trust GM as far as I could THROW a Malibu to keep the car at its initial level of quality. They’ve simply proven over and over again that except for a few halo cars like the Corvette – most of what they make turns to crap eventually.
If we ever see the Detroit automakers clean up and fly right, producing vehicles with a level of initial quality, durability, TCO, clean emissions and fuel efficiency at – or (shall we dream) above – the standard set by Toyota and Honda and maintain that record – across their entire fleet of models – for a good 10 years… maybe then I’ll consider them again.
Of course, what’s more likely is that by the time Detroit gets to where Toyohondissan is now – they’ll have advanced to the point where they’re still far ahead.
a lot of great points have been made on both sides of the argument. i’ve looked at CR and JDP long term reports and it would still seem that the domestics are lagging behind in reliability (which to me always means “long-term”; if it doesn’t hold up over time it’s not “reliable” by definition). three weeks ago i bought an ‘09 accord for about $4,000 more than i could have paid for a comparably equipped ford fusion. did i consider the fusion? yes. did i spend as much time online and at several dealers looking for a fusion as i did for an accord? not exactly. why not? no selection. the 4 ford dealerships within a 10 mile radius had between 5 and 9 fusions total each to choose from. either someone beat me to the punch on the $3,500 rebate being offered at the time or, more likely, there just wasn’t any product being shipped in. one of the dealerships looked like it was in the middle of a going-out-of-business sale. i did a drive by to confirm the online inventory showing 9 fusions total and kept on driving. it was not exactly confidence-inspiring. meanwhile, the 2 honda dealerships had inventory and traffic and looked like business was as good as ever. right now in my sizable work parking lot there are more than a dozen ‘08 & ‘09 accords…and one fusion. apparently in the car business as in politics, perception is reality.
1) The “new car smell” this idiot is talking about is mostly the noxious fumes of plastics and glue. That’s what the Japanese manufacturers have pioneered the elimination of. The “smell” is now less than it used to.
2)The Big 3 engineered the predicament they are in now by not having a long term vision: they’ve been overproducing like crazy vehicles that people cannot afford to buy or maintain when the gas gets too expensive.
Case in point: the Dodge Challenger. It’s a good looking car, with proven mechanics, but it’s still a gas guzzler and, being a sports car, it’s expensive to maintain and insure. Chrysler built way too many of them and now, dealerships can’t give them away, much less make a profit. (Check the inventory of most dealerships if you don’t believe it)
3)Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda etc… have built a huge market over the years on the niches that the Big 3 neglected: Economy cars, midsized cars with good gas mileage, etc… Now, to regain that market share, the Big 3 should have offered products that are competitive in these markets. What did we get instead? The Cavalier/Sunbird/Sunfire/Cobalt/G5, the Avenger/Sebring, the Aveo/Wave/G3 and other unrefined metal.
Case in point: the Taurus/ Sable. For years, this platform was among the best, if not the best-selling on the market. What happened? Ford let its product get stale and reduced its once proud (and profitable) platform to a mere shadow of its former self. Toyota and Honda took the market and did not surrender it since.
I could continue on and on, but one thing we don’t need in these hard times is some blowhard from RedneckVille who will not admit that as long as money will talk, people will vote with their wallet. Big 3, offer us a better product, let us rebuild our confidence in you, and we might return to your showrooms. Meanwhile, we will drive the products from the companies that satisfied us when you let us down for so long.
Signed:
An ex-GM Fanatic (Capital F) who now drives his 3rd Honda.
Phil, on top of the previous critiques, you’re also ignoring the fact that not all Toyotas are simply “assembled” in the US. A number of Toyota models are designed and engineered in the States. Examples include the Tundra, Sequoia, and Avalon, all of which are products specific to America.
First, just because a vehicle model in Toyota’s line is specific to America, doesn’t mean it’s not merely assembled here. Second, Tundra, Avalon and Sequoia aren’t Toyota’s volume strength.
Other US models have distinct US sheetmetal, implying additional design input from North America, and cars like the Camry (which is no longer sold in parts of Europe, and is not that big a seller in Japan) is clearly engineered for American needs, with, one suspects, American input.
“Additional design input from North America.” Your words, not mine, and implicitly recognizing that “additional input” isn’t primary design. Distinct US sheetmetal? Really? Tell me, where was the engine designed? The transmission?
Further, your claims that the quality gap has vanished altogether are still not borne out by CR and JDP long-term tests, as of 2008.
Differences between #1 and #50 on these lists are now smaller than differences between #1 and $10 from 15 years ago. There are differences and then there are meaningful differences. If you choose critically, there are quality-parity mainstream category vehicles from the Detroiters. And I can’t help but add that only a minority of the annual new car buying public references this data anyway. Certainly I’ve had no trouble buying completely reliable domestic vehicles while completely ignoring CR and JDP.
Your assumption of NAFTA production is also flawed. Do you honestly believe, as the cost gap between USA and LDCs continues to grow, that GM wouldn’t move production even further afield? Perhaps to China? Be serious. More American market share for GM will not guarantee any American jobs, except in the design studio and engineering office, and we have seen that several of the Asian transplants already do the same.
The cost gap between US and LDCs will *shrink* in real dollars. We’ve seen this happen in software, coomputer hardware and consumer electronics. India and China aren’t as cheap as they were just a few years ago. In any case, there is more than labor cost to decisions about where to locate production. GM is global and some production will move elsewhere. But Malibu, as an example, is made here and selling more of them isn’t going to result in production moving offshore. Moreover, more market share makes D3 HQ stronger. You assume coping tactics from the last several years will persist as the strategic context changes.
Finally, anyone who calls the Chevy Cobalt “compelling”, in any context, loses all his points.
Who’s counting? But I didn’t write that the car itself is compelling. I’ve driven Cobalt’s vehicle segment in the US. It’s not like any competitor is stellar. In a budget sector bereft of desirable choice, the compelling purchase becomes the one with the most domestic economic benefit, and that’s Cobalt or Focus. Certainly the rationale for a Corolla is vapor by comparison.
Phil