The Insight is an exceptional vehicle. But related to the Insight, I think Honda’s recall activities may be partially attributable to the fact that there is such a strong enthusiast foundation for that model and that it sold in such limited quantities.

Most folks who look at hybrids are concerned about the ‘economic proposition’ of keeping them. In many cases, they are willing to even forgo a lower overall cost IF the product is generally reliable and the long-term maintenance expenses are reasonable. Buying a Prius instead of a Corolla these days would be the textbook example of that mentality.

Unfortunately the Civic Hybrid failed in part because Honda chose not to stand behind their own product. A lot of folks have been saddled with bad CVT’s, catalytic converters, and battery packs that end up costing far more than the typical engine or transmission repair. A company with the name, perceived quality, and commitment to innovation that Honda has should have performed far better when it came to taking care of their own customers.

As much as I love many of Honda’s products (I’ve owned everything from Acuras to Helixes) I think the parent company has really left the customer holding the bag when it comes to expense. Until that mentality changes, I wouldn’t advise anyone buying a Honda hybrid until the costs of long term ownership become far more reasonable.

Ghillie, you need to read my article again.

My bad.

Both Fred D. and Bytor refer to CVT problems with Insights – maybe that’s what I was thinking of.

Also Steven your post at 10.38 immediately following Fred D.’s does not correct him on this and what you say there does not confirm that CVT issues are confined to the Civic and do not afflict Insights.

Anyway – I’m glad that that’s cleared up.

As for the intricacies of Honda’s warranty response to BCM and battery problems, you obviously know much more than I do, so I’ll keep out of that one other than to repeat that the experience of most people posting on Insight Central seems to be a good one.

Despite it’s faults (leaks around the driver’s door seems to be a not uncommon problem) I think the Insight is one of the most amazing cars ever made. It’s a light weight all-aluminum sports car. It’s impractical only if you need more than two seats (like most sports cars) and it has more storage under the hatch than most sports cars. Most owners seem to get about 70mpg in the MT cars and don’t have a problem with the handling. Those that do, find that swapping out the LRR OEM tires transforms its road manners for the loss of a few mpg. But mostly, it’s just plain fun at road legal speeds – quick steering and light weight see to that.

The Civic hybrid seems an inferior car to a Prius – it will be interesting to see how the new Insight stacks up.

Even on this site (not to mention, Autoblog) many have cited Honda’s fragile-as-glass transmissions –and this is a car company that still doesn’t offer 6-speed autos or dual-clutch transmissions. They are probably too busy fixing their 5-speeds.

The new math: Toyota’s declining reliability = Honda innovation. Right.

All Honda can do now is build a Prius-lookalike.

How many shapes are there for a car that will carry 4 people, their luggage, travel at 70 to 80 mph, and get 48.6 mpg? That is what my Prius did on a recent trip from Los Angeles to Phoenix.

I don’t know why you are equating my Honda statement to your Prius. Since the Honda hybrid approach is less advanced, similar aerodynamics alone don’t guarantee the Insight will match the Prius in efficiency.

philbailey :

…the Prius has suffered and still suffers, from more problems than you care to highlight.

Okay, now you’ve got my attention!

To wit: Dell laptop style self immolation, sudden shut down while on the highways, cautionary approach by rescue crews because of high voltages involved and on and on…..

Wow, you’ve really got it in for the Prius, using these old scare topics. I have had none of those problems with my 2004 Prius, and neither have the people I know who also drive the 2004 or later Prius.

And all high voltage cabling is easily recognizable, being in bright orange casing. First responders mostly know this by now, what with the Prius having been in the US market for what…8 or 9 years?

Steven Lang to Philbailey: Toyota has a far better record of taking care of owner’s problems. It’s not even close between the two. Chrysler was ‘worse’ with their Ultradrive transmissions during the early 1990’s. But they also took care of their customers far better than Ford and Honda when it came to issues.

You’re right, Steven; it’s not even close.

Although I was disappointed when I recently learned that my hybrid coolant pump needed to be replaced, and it was not covered under the hybrid components warranty.

At least the work was done correctly, and I didn’t find spare parts on the bottom of my passenger footwell.

Any ideas?

I wrote the following…

“It didn’t take long before Consumer Reports and a rash of owner review sights began to highlight the very expensive and frequent transmission work requireed to keep the Honda Civic hybrid on the road. After a few battles, Honda upped the transmission warranty to 100k and agreed to replace or modify components in the hopes of avoiding the inevitable. Unfortunately, with cases of third and fourth transmissions being replaced within 100k, the Civic Hybrid began to lose serious traction with the public.”

You have the right idea, wrong car. At 1850 pounds the Insight didn’t have any serious issues with the CVT transmission. The Civic was a completely different story. Honda has needed to make several hardware and software upgrades in order to improve it’s reliability. Everyone from the Department of Energy to Consumer Reports have already highlighted this issue.

I do take issue with Honda’s handling of the CVT issues, the battery issues (until late 2006), and the catalytic converter replacements. As I mentioned Honda advocated a piecemeal strategy that effectively helped some owners and not others. For example, the 150k battery warranty you mentioned was only enacted in certain states at first. Why they decided to include California and New Mexico into the mix if heat was an issue, but not Alabama, Georgia or New Mexico is beyond me unless there are other (legal) factors involved.

Even now a Civic Hybrid owner will have to pay for certain software upgrades which, I’m sorry, strikes me as ridiculous. If Volvo can offer a 10 year / 200,000 mile warranty on their ECM issue, Honda should easily be able to offer a similar standard when it comes to a software upgrade without charging the customers $150 for it. Honda dealers and their parent have effectively made a multiple amount more money than a marginal niche player like Volvo, and at the very least I would expect them to stand behind their products. Especially when the technology behind them is costly for consumers to replace.

I’ve had the Civic hybrid (only replaced an 02 sensor), as well as both Priuses and a TDI. I genuinely liked the Civic. But the IMA technology simply isn’t as robust as Toyota’s or VW’s. It’s a shame because I really did find the Civic to be a more satisfying vehicle to drive than the other two. If Honda offered a warranty on the Civic Hybrid that would protect the owners from the unusually high costs of parts replacement on this vehicle (or at least subsidize those costs), the enthusiast community for Honda hybrids would be far greater than it is at the moment. Keep in mind that the Civic version was the best selling version of their hybrids since 2003.

The main site is InsightCentral.net

It’s a pretty good site. I couldn’t find anything on there about high levels of CVT failure or even particular problems with the CVT. I don’t know about the Civic, but for the Insight I believe that the claim of high levels of CVT failure is not true. I would like to know where Steven has got his information on this.

Manual transmission Insights do get substantially better mpg than CVT’s mainly because the engine in the CVT does not have “lean burn”. How much better depends a lot on how the car is driven. Insight CVT’s do not have “false steps”.

Even with the Insight, the extra horsepower of the electric motor was essential to make it remotely feasible to drive on such a small gas engine.

In the case of the Insight this is an overstatement. But there is no doubt that without IMS an Insight is less easy to drive and less fuel efficient.

Steven Lang :
The software for the use of the manual transmission is different than the CVT… The by-product of all this is that the manual transmission versions will not manage the battery life as well as the CVT although it will offer greater fuel efficiency.

The issues with Insight batteries appears to be complex and I am no expert but I believe that what Steven says above is correct.

However, I understand that Honda’s warranty on the Insight battery is now 10 years or 150,000 miles throughout the USA. The only class action I know of was about odometer accuracy in cars that were outside the mileage limit for warranty but inside the age limit.

A read of the Insight Central site indicates that the great majority of owners are still getting battery replacement under warranty by Honda without argument.

I doubt that any article about long term Honda Insight performance and problems can be considered properly informed unless a good review of the Insight Central site has been undertaken.

How many shapes are there for a car that will carry 4 people, their luggage, travel at 70 to 80 mph, and get 48.6 mpg? That is what my Prius did on a recent trip from Los Angeles to Phoenix.

The old Citroen ID 19 tear drop type shape is still the best.

Any evidence that Honda isn’t an innovator? I can’t stand the relentless negativity against one of the great automakers of our time. Last I checked, Honda has a better reputation for reliability these days then Toyota.

Had the original Insight had a rear seat –and maybe visible rear wheels– and it might have done better. As it is, though, it’s just a toy that appeals to only hardcore eco-drivers. Like the CR-X before it, its design intentionally limits its market appeal.

“At first the Prius failed. It racked-up just 5562 U.S. sales in 2000.”

But your point is still taken rudiger. The first generation Prius never made it to the North American market.

Check out the EPA numbers for 2006 Ford Five Hundred with the CVT or optional 6 speed automatic. 18/25mpg for the CVT and 19/26 for the automatic. This is one of the few cases where a car has been available with either a CVT or a conventional automatic.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

Likewise, when the Insight was available with your choice of a manual transmission or the CVT, the numbers were: CVT: 45/49mpg, 5 speed manual: 48/58

Mini Cooper: CVT: 23/31, 5-speed manual: 24/33

As I understand it, the problem is that CVTs have high internal losses due to the hydraulics which must be constantly powered to keep the adjustable pulley halves at the correct, but always changing, spacing. These losses are high enough to negate the theoretical optimum engine operating point gains. Modern engines with variable valve trains and highly sophisticated engine management computers have a much broader band of nearly optimal operating conditions than did the fixed valve train engines of old.

Steven Lang: “The battery for the IMA system also has a much larger range of depletion (15% vs. 40%) during it’s operations than the Prius which is one of the main reasons why they usually don’t last nearly as long.”

This is a critical element in how Toyota has managed to corner the market on effective hybrid application and why the second generation Prius was such a breakthrough.

Toyota’s main hybrid feat was finding the proper ECM algorithm that balances battery use with longevity to the maximum possible effectiveness, the so-called battery ’sweet-spot’. No other car company has managed to figure this out as well. Other hybrids have a tendancy to either quickly deplete the battery, severely limiting life (Honda), or maintaining battery longevity to the detriment of a performance improvement which doesn’t justify the cost (GM).

Although that first gen car wasn’t a sales blockbuster, as a four-door sedan, it was certainly a lot more practical than the diminutive Insight. The second generation NHW20 Prius made its appearance for MY04, not 2005.

In essence, it appears the article is saying that the first generation Prius was sold in the US for five years (MY00 to MY04) when, in fact, it was just three years (MY01 to MY03). It’s a minor point, but one worth clarifying.

That said, Honda is losing it in my humble opinion. Styling for both Acura and Honda is scaring me. The only “true” Honda that stands firm to the old Honda brand promise is that of the Fit. Sure, I’ll give some kudos to the S2000, Element and Odyssey. But other than that, all other Hondas leave me cold.

Honda used to be a clear leader in engine size to horsepower, a leader in low vehicle weight and a leader in mpg. Not so true anymore. When you see Chevy Malibu ads touting better mpg than Honda Accord ads, the general public takes notice.

Reliability and service were another hallmark for Honda too. Not so much in recent years too. Have you priced your local Honda dealer for what they charge for simpy draining 3 qts out of your tranny and refilling? And let’s not forget tranny failures looming out there too.

Honda is losing its Edge. How can we convince them to find the errors of their ways? Should we petition for them to bring vehicles like the Stream stateside?

That had more to do with marketing than mechanical robustness. People–especially enthusiasts–don’t like the way they behave. They feel like a slipping automatic when they’re doing what they were designed for: keeping the engine in it’s optimal powerband for a given task.

People miss the combination of revvs, shifts and accompanying accelerative shoves after a shift and think the car is slow. It’s not, at least not by the numbers, but since acceleration is linear it “feels” slow.

The other issue is the odd, off-accelerator creep. It’s different than in an automatic, and feels strange.

Besides reliability problems, the other issue with CVTs is that they don’t achieve the hoped for better fuel efficiency.

Actually, they do, but manufacturers have been inserting false ’steps’ into their gearing to make them feel like an automatic, which sabotages their efficiency. You end up with a CVT aping an automatic, which is silly.

I was party to instrumented testing of the manual, auto and CVT versions of the Nissan Versa. The CVT was the fastest and most efficient, the auto the slowest, but the test drivers all felt that the CVT-equipped Versa was the slowest of the bunch.

I will contend that they’re not really built for towing loads, but the technology is still fairly young. Nissan has done some good work in this space.

This Accord and Civic are excellent cars IF you only desire a coupe or sedan. If you are looking for that vesatility that once made Honda a unique brand you are out of luck today.

The mistake Honda is making in the USA is doing something that no one really asked for and that is the “Americanization” of there vehicles. In the here and now Honda will do just fine but in the future HOnda will find itself like many automakers today in search of an indentity.

This topic is very interesting because I think we can already see were Honda is hurting itself in the US marketplace. I guess honda used one of those stupid surveys that claimed Americans do not like hatches or wagons and decided they could save a bundle by dropping these models from the USA lineup. This is a play for the average Joe in the USA who was NEVER the average Honda customer.
Just like your average SAAB fan was never a 4 door sedan type of guy/girl.

The Civic and Accord hybrids do not sell well because they offer ZERO advantages over a lower price Civic or Accord. Why buy a Accord V6 Hybrid when you could just by a 4cyl Accord for far less money and nearly the same gas mileage. The same goes with the Civic. It is hard to pay more up front for a car based on EXPECTED savings over the long term when you can buy essentially the same car for much less out the door.

The Prius is a success because it is NOT a Camry or Corolla. In addition to it hybrid powertrain it also offers up some unique attributes and a great deal more utility than a 4 door corolla or Camry.

This were Honda is NOT Toyota. Like em or hate em one must admit that Toyota has an uncanny feel for what the market wants and the ability to get it to market while the demand is still fresh.
The current RAV4 and the new Venza is a fine example of this. The RAV4 is the cute-ute that is actually VERY useful with its interior volume advantage and a very powerful engine IF you need it. The Venza is the not quite CUV that does still offer up some real advantages over a sedan based wagon. This is contrast to Honda which keeps making its car based CUV/ wannabe SUVs more and more “truck” looking.

The styling of Honda’s next gen Hybrid is sad admittance that Honda has been caught with an empty bag of tricks this go around and are playing catch up to a gaint that they CANT catch.

To see that Toyota is giving honda a beating on the unique, querky product front is very interesting. The fault lies with Honda trying to be Toyota without the resources or model lineup to play the same game.

Why is that? I ask because a CVT is mechanically simple compared even to a manual, and certainly next to a six-or-more speed automatic or sequential manual. There’s so little to go wrong I can’t fathom why it’d cost more to replace.

Et voilà: http://forums.dieselstation.com/index.php?showtopic=23902